Tobold's Blog
Thursday, March 23, 2006
 
Guild drama

Of special interest in the "MMG for Dummies" book I recently reviewed is the chapter talking about guild drama. It says that guild drama is inevitable, and lists lots of examples. I totally agree. My guild has no less than two dramas going on at the same time right now, one involving me.

The drama that does not involve me is a simple question of message board etiquette. Player A posts a stupid spam comment in an otherwise intelligent thread on the guild forums. Officer B deletes the post. Player A gets angry, saying that posts should never be just deleted without notification of the owner, and that he would leave the forums. Some players try to calm him down, saying that effectively it would have been better if the officer just edited out the spam and replaced it by some "edited for spam" notification. Now officer B feels attacked, and announces that he will leave the guild. *Sigh*

The drama that does involve me is more serious, and harder to resolve. We previously had a larger alliance between guilds, where practically only the most hardcore raiders from each guild in the alliance went raiding together. The less hardcore people simply couldn't get into the raids, because raid slots were distributed on a first-signup-first-serve basis, and the hardcore raiders camped the signup calender and always got in first. Much unhappiness by the people who would have liked to go raiding as well sometimes, even if they aren't as hardcore about it. Also one of the three guilds involved was decidedly less nice and less competent than the other two. So the system was changed to now raid partnered with only one guild, giving each guild more slots, enabling other people to participate.

What the hardcore raiders didn't foresee was that the people who hadn't gone raiding before were a) less well equipped, and b) less experienced in raiding, for obvious reasons. Thus in the "new" raids we failed to kill bosses like Geddon, who were previously considered as "easy" by the hardcore guys. That already caused some big resentment from the hardcore towards the n00bs, who had "destroyed" their previous cushy raid arrangements and now messed up their raid success.

Then I dared to suggest that our guilds Geddon strategy wasn't optimal. We are standing in a huge circle around Geddon, thus half of the raid is always out of range of my healing or decursing spells. When the priest in one part of the circle is out of mana (which happens easily if you don't have all that nice purple +int +spirit gear), dead, or is turned into the bomb and has to run, there is nobody who can decurse the people in his group. Thus the casters who get affected by Geddon's debuff which drains their mana and turns it into damage all quickly either die or become completely useless without mana. Thus I informed myself of how other guilds are doing it, and they usually huddle much closer together, and have everybody within spell range.

Of course me being a raiding n00b, suggesting that the hardcore raiders strategy wasn't perfect caused a huge outcry of consternation from them. They claim that this strategy worked perfectly before, and just the n00bs being too stupid to run when they were the bomb caused our wipes. When I didn't shut up, one of the hardcore guys resorted to slander, and claimed that I had exploded in my group 3 times. Well, I might not be an experienced raider, but I sure to have the CTRaidassist Boss mod installed, which warned me every time loudly when I was the bomb, and I'm absolutely sure that I ran each time to the maximum distance that the cave wall allowed me from achieving. So now I'm pretty upset about people telling lies about me. Anybody know a way to log your combat messages in WoW, so you have proof of what actually happened? If me exploding ever hurt anybody, that person must have been close to the cave walls as well. One more reason not to have the hole raid lined up in a huge circle. Being grouped and having a marked bomb explosion spot would be a much better strategy.

My guild suffers from a serious dichotomy of being by design a mature, casual players guild, and having some people who tasted blood in Molten Core who would like to head towards Ragnaros. Delusions of grandeur, in my opinion, we need 5 hours to kill the first three bosses of Molten Core. That is far, far away from being an efficient raiding guild, especially since we don't even use voice chat. So now we have unhappy hardcore people who think the n00bs destroyed their raiding pleasure, and unhappy casual players who resent being shouted at for incompetence.

I hope that situation will resolve itself. Last time when we had a bunch of officers who were only interested in raiding, and the bulk of the guild wasn't following, we had a kind of a putsch: The officers nearly destroyed the guild by all simultaneously resigning. We somehow recovered from that, but it took some time before we were back in shape. I have some doubts about the wisdom of our policy of making all the people who are good at leading raids officers, in a guild which isn't a dedicated raid guild.

The ideal solution would be if the people who love raids would realize that the less experienced raiders will need some help with getting better gear, and some training, before we can hope to achieve more in the raid dungeons. As I mentioned previously, going to Molten Core is not a good way to improve your equipment, the lesser dungeons improve your gear more reliably. And just taking somebody with you on a 40-man raid isn't the best way to teach him raiding either. There needs to be a lot more communication and explanation to make people understand what is going on, if you expect them to behave in an optimal manner. If the hardcore raiders would help the less well equipped, less well trained people in getting better by going with them to the lesser dungeons, it would help both sides in this matter.
Comments:
Sorry Tobold, but people are allowed to dissagree with each other.

The real issue here is that people are unable to do so gracefully and diplomatically.

This saddens me, as I have always held the belief that any idea, no matter how stupid, is worth airing.

Did you blow people up as the bomb in Geddon? Well 2 people at least think so. Is that your fault? Or theirs? Were you too close? Were they not far enough away? Maybe not actually having an idea about HOW BIG that bomb explosion radius is didn't help. As it is much larger than what people thought. I noticed people run, and still blow people up at at least 20 yards - lag could have been a factor here too.

Why get so upset that people don't agree with you? The fact is the tactics will change at Geddon I'm sure.

You moan about officers quitting the guild because their not having fun, or because of accusations of being a forum nazi. But you yourself haven't handled this "slander" very well either. Theres no good ranting about it, as it makes matters worse. A level head is required to sort problems like this out. And I know....trust me....thats a very hard thing to keep!!
 
Tell your guild to stop being noobs and use a better strat. Have everyone stand on the rune. Have the people with bombs run to the left, then when geddon pulses have the tank run toward the rune but to the right of it.

You should, assuming your tank is good, avoid the ignite mana for the whole group, and you should have a clearly defined place for the bombee's to go.

If you can craft some fire protection pots for your priest do so, the ignite mana debuff is what is kiling your mana. Also dispell it from yourself and the other healers, so you all don't go OOM.

Last set a priest designated to the bombee's. This priest should shield, renew, and after the victim blows up, flash heal him. If you do this, the bombee will not die from the bomb and be able to run back to the group and get into the action.
 
hmm, that's sad.

i think player A needs some serious hitting on the brain for such a hasty reaction. u never know if Officer B did the same. mistakes can happen.


why is it that ball never bounces back on the way you expect.
 
Totally agree Mafti. I need a hit on the head too. If I had known what anger I caused by proposing a better strategy for Geddon, I would have never done it.

But telling me to shut up afterwards is decidedly the best way of not making me, it only serves to start a big fight with me. I'm stubborn as a mule. Of course that only gets all of my suggestions ignored, even those where I am right. Ranting doesn't make the situation any better, but if you can't rant on your own blog, where can you?
 
Is this a capture of your raid?

http://mcisserious.ytmnd.com/

(curse words on the splash page and while playing the recording of the raid)

There are a couple of these out there which amuse me...
 
The simplest way I know to log your combat messages is to just take a screen shot. I'm sure there are other, better ways, I just don't know them.
 
According to this site: http://www.onlinegamecommands.com/worldofwarcraftwow/worldofwarcraftwowslashcommands.htm - there is a /combatlog command already. Additionally, there are addons that will parse combat logs.
 
It's taken me a while to understand this but I think one piece of raid etiquette is that discussions of tactics should happen outside the raid. The raid leader should have absolute say.
If someone disagreea with the approach either stay and discuss it after or leave.

Usually in raids particularly with regular wipes is easy for 35 of 40 people to get dispondent, look for those to blame and for people to just get tired. Keep trying but don't argue points in guild/raid chat and generally try to keep the chatter light hearted.

It's hard leading a raid, I've done a few 10 or 15 mans myself. Let the leader lead, help them if they ask for it and provide tactics and strategies offline.

That's my advice, hope it's useful.
 
My guild just downed Luci for the first time last week. While we all contribute to the discussion about strats, in the end, the GM and officers decide and implement them. If they screw up repeatedly, people will leave the guild eventually. So far, we've done really well.

I would not stay with a guild where that kind of behavior was tolerated. While we are playful and casual outside of a raid, bad behavior is not tolerated, with the exception of the raid leader correcting someone. Most of us have families and jobs, plenty of sources for grief, stress and anxiety without some 15-year-old acting like a dipsh1t. The only harsh words are related to people who can't play their class - seem to be a lot of hunters who haven't figured out that mana = dps.
 
You'll get guild drama where ever you go, it's normal. The bigger the guild the bigger the problem.

There are some people in our guild that I just choose to to raid with, at least not in 5 or 10 man raids, because I think they are incompentent players and are terrible communicators. I go to 40 man raid with them and just choose to ignore them on Vent.

The sad thing about people is that 99% of them (prolly 75% of those are under 21) care about themselves first and then everyone else. I am sure most of them could care less that you have a disagreement going on and who called who what. Just try to let it go. :)
 
Once you're downing Geddon regularly you'll blow people up for laughs. I've actually been in Molten Core with 3 different groups at one time or another and all 3 handled the Geddon encounter totally differently. Each of the strategies worked, but I'm willing to bet each guild was convinced their way was the best way. Raiders cling to what they know, and what has worked for them in the past. It's hard to talk people into trying something new, to them it's not worth the time investment when they already have passed certain content previously.
 
Your guild is nub if they think that is the best way to kill Geddon. Precisely for the reasons you mentioned.

Everyone that wants to raid should have CT(Raid, Boss etc).

All ranged should stand near the stalagmites/stalactites. When you are the bomb you run to the wall closest to the stala* then when you explode, you don't get falling damage in addition to the bomb damage. Have a couple of priests on dispell and the rest on healing.

If you were guild leader, you could just make a rule stating that there will be no guild drama ;-)
 
"Last time when we had a bunch of officers who were only interested in raiding, and the bulk of the guild wasn't following, we had a kind of a putsch: The officers tried to destroy the guild by all simultaneously resigning"

What a great insight you have into this particular situation, Tobold. I myself have been a member of the guild since early 2002 (i think, hazy memory), and three of the other 4 you talk of even longer. Months of frustration came to a head at this point in time, frustration that no longer made the game fun for any of us. Two of us went to play with friends from EQ, one quit WoW completely, and the other recently returned. We are all still very much members of the community, and that will never change, ORC is a gaming community, not a single guild in a single game. But as always, you are correct, we set out to deliberatley destroy everything we have worked so hard for over the years.
 
Does it matter whether it was deliberately or carelessly? What did you *think* that all the guild officers leaving simultaneously do to the guild? There was no orderly transition, no looking for replacements, you all just left on the same day, not caring what happened to the people you left behind.

To the observer it looked like a conspiracy. Whether it was one or not you know better than me.

Another typical example of guild drama.
 
What the hardcore raiders didn't foresee was that the people who hadn't gone raiding before were a) less well equipped, and b) less experienced in raiding, for obvious reasons. Thus in the "new" raids we failed to kill bosses like Geddon, who were previously considered as "easy" by the hardcore guys.

That sounds like a huge numbered guild for me? Usually MC raids up to Domo do not punish a couple of less experienced/equipped players. Around 30 good players could handle up to Domo, wich leaves 10 spots open for non-hardcores?

When you blow up fromt he bomb, screenshot the combat log. It would show any kills you would cause, or you wich you dont :) As for the cure tactics. We did (as you maybe know i got kicked out of my guild recently) groups rely on their own curing. Even if one cure-person gets the bomb, the group usually should have a second one, or the bomb guy should be back in time for curing. We never had a problem with that.

My guild suffers from a serious dichotomy of being by design a mature, casual players guild, and having some people who tasted blood in Molten Core who would like to head towards Ragnaros. Delusions of grandeur, in my opinion, we need 5 hours to kill the first three bosses of Molten Core.

You know, i was one of those blood sucker people. Seeing the guild get totally pwnd by Ragnaros, every single time, caused by the same mistakes is not acceptable for me. Especially if its caused by the same guys over and over again. Good to know, that there is guild drama everywhere.

I hope this crap solves itself soon, for me it has not and WoW is kinda done without a guild.
 
I hate guild drama. With the passion of a thousand fiery suns. Hate it.

Fortunately my new guild and its officers do not tolerate guild drama or loot drama on any level. It's run as a communal dictatorship of sorts - the officers have the power and what they say goes - but it works. I've always been a fan of the enlightened dictatorship form of government and here it's doing well.
 
"Does it matter whether it was deliberately or carelessly? What did you *think* that all the guild officers leaving simultaneously do to the guild? There was no orderly transition, no looking for replacements, you all just left on the same day, not caring what happened to the people you left behind.

To the observer it looked like a conspiracy. Whether it was one or not you know better than me.

Another typical example of guild drama."

And what did you think of before blatantly tagging those officer's as traitors without mentioning a single fact regarding the "execution" of this small revolution? Everyone that kept current in the guild at that time, would already have known that there were a kind of unrest, or lust for high-end content among these people, thus blaming them for anything else than wanting to get the fun back is horrid and disrespectfull.
 
Omg, now we have blog drama!
 
I have no problem with the blog drama here. The story is an old one, and I was well aware that the officers who all left simultaneously never admitted the faintest possibility that such a move could have hurt the guild. I let them talk, I'm not going to censor anything, everybody is entitled to his own view of the story. Let them flame me.

This is my blog. The "my" part implies that I can do what I want here. The "blog" part tells you that whatever I write here is my personal view of things. There is no absolute truth in guild dramas.
 
Do the following in chat each time you log in:

/script LoggingCombat(true)

Or put it in a macro. Or whatever. It will make sure that your combat log is always being saved to Logs\WoWCombatLog.txt
 
Having been one of the very earliest DaoC members who quit WoW in distaste shortly before the officer drama, I think we pressed the self-destruct button the moment we started having delusions about becoming a raiding guild.

As I said at the time and I'll say again, casual gamers and raiders do not make happy bedfellows. Add in a banned exploiter promoted to officer despite major objections and it's a recipe for trouble - and tragically a long, long way from what the guild originally offered and stood for.

Hopefully Orc will return to normality in another online world - preferably a raid-free one!

You know who ;)

PS. I hope you and Dag don't fall out over this - I regard you both as rare mmorpg "purists" who cherish what's good in these game.
 
I'm afraid Dag and me are not on speaking terms since he put me on /ignore and sent me a tell just to goad me into replying and get the "You are on this guys ignore list" error message. Which was a very clever form of insult.

I would have hoped that casual gamers and raiders could be part of the same guild, with the casual gamers helping the raiders making up the numbers, and the raiders helping the casual gamers to play better, and to get better gear. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to work very well.
 
*yawn*

Crawl back under your rock "You know who"

It still gets to you doesnt it!! how happy that makes me feel.

Maybe you should find another guild full of short sighted, small minded individuals like yourself. If you havent already.

Proud ORC member.
 
It's a bit cowardly to just post under "Anonymous".

Not a behaviour I would attribute to an ORC member.
 
"It still gets to you doesnt it!! how happy that makes me feel."

Isn't that an attack that cuts both ways? If I write about my view on guild loyalty on my personal blog, and that results in all the people involved starting to turn up here and flame me, anonymously or not, I can't fail to think that you aren't really proud of having left the guild like that.

I do believe in everybodies right to leave a guild he has become frustrated with, and generally wish them more luck elsewhere. But I do also think that officers of a guild have certain duties and responsabilities for the well-being of the guild as a whole, above and beyond that of ordinary guild members. All officers quitting the guild simultaneously predictably hurt the guild, and I consider it as a dereliction of duty.

If that opinion gets to you, that might be either its small-mindedness, or your shame.
 
What exactly would YOU have us do Tobold? Keep logging in and pretendng nothing is wrong?

ORC will never make an end game content raiding guild, not while we try to pander to all the "non-raiders" in a raiding scheme. There are people who whine endlessly and vocally that while they dont want to raid all the time with the guild, they want to show up now and again when they feel like it (which in its own right is perfectly ok), but they also want the same chances of whatever drops in said raid as the people who are there 3-4 days a week for every raid. Those same people are there dying time and time again to work out tactics and a sysytem for encounter XYZ that works for their raidforce - why shouldnt they get priority for the loot - loot which in turn better enables the raid force.

Its your contant pissing and moaning about "its not fair - I am here today, why should person xxx have a better shout than me" that has held the guild back on more than one occassion. Sad to be said, but very true, ORC has always seemed to have the mind to give in and let you have your own way, just so they can get a bit of peace.
 
"What exactly would YOU have us do Tobold? Keep logging in and pretendng nothing is wrong?"

Now that's an easy one. I would have wanted you to organize an orderly transition. Find new officers, play alongside with them for a week or two to teach them their duties, and then leave with sufficient advance warning. Basically caring for what you left behind.

"ORC will never make an end game content raiding guild, not while we try to pander to all the "non-raiders" in a raiding scheme. There are people who whine endlessly and vocally that while they dont want to raid all the time with the guild, they want to show up now and again when they feel like it (which in its own right is perfectly ok), but they also want the same chances of whatever drops in said raid as the people who are there 3-4 days a week for every raid. Those same people are there dying time and time again to work out tactics and a sysytem for encounter XYZ that works for their raidforce - why shouldnt they get priority for the loot - loot which in turn better enables the raid force."

If everybody who is on the raid had an even chance to win the loot, somebody who went on twice as many raids would already win twice as much loot.

In addition to that ORC has the ORC raid point system, which *does* give people who go on raids more often a +50 on the loot roll, thus significantly increasing their chance to win loot. With +50 on a roll a frequent raider has a 87.5% chance to win the loot against a single tourist raider rolling against him. Against an infinite number of tourist raiders rolling against him, he still has the obvious 50% chance to beat all of them, he just needs to roll a 51+.

So you left us because you felt that giving a 1 in 8 chance to a casual raider and 7 in 8 chance to a frequent raider was still favoring the casual raiders too much? And you feel that this is what holds the guild back?

I don't think your idea can work in a guild which relies on casual raiders to make up the numbers. If you give them less than 1 in 8 chance to win loot, they just will never show up.
 
The ORP system you mention was setup largely by those traitors who left, after weeks of discussion on the officer boards.

The original idea was no loot system at all.

Under our guild ethics ( I am still a guild member and officer, just not in WoW), should you really be 'slagging off' current officers and members in a public area?
 
What do you want me to say about that incident? I just edited the phrase saying "The officers tried to destroy the guild by all simultaneously resigning." to "The officers nearly destroyed the guild by all simultaneously resigning." Does that satisfy you? The new phrase doesn't imply evil intention, but only reports the facts how I experienced them.

Do you deny that the officers left the WoW chapter simultaneously? Or that this move hurt the remainder of the guild? Or are you saying that guild rules somehow should prevent me from writing what I think, in my own blog (which I consider half private, half public)? You are invited to report your version of the story here. I know you guys where frustrated, but why did you have to leave all at the same time, and so suddenly?

This is really going to be interesting when we find ourselves in the next game and you try to use your position as officer-for-life to get me kicked out of the guild for blogging. Reminds me of the story of the Delta stewardess who got fired for blogging. Most people would assume blogging to fall under free speech.
 
We didn't leave suddenly at all, it was discussed at length in the officer forums. Four Officers left, I seem to remember we had more than that at the time. Really just shows that you didn't ask the GM why we left, although we did all individually write a farewell post on the guild board.

Several people arn't happy with you airing this in a public viewing area, a Blog is not private by nature. I have no intention of asking for you to be kicked out of the guild, I was just pointing out what our guild ethics say.

As for free speech, we would move a thread like this to a guild internal area.
 
As for free speech, we would move a thread like this to a guild internal area.

The subtle irony of this one made me smile. :)
 
"This is really going to be interesting when we find ourselves in the next game and you try to use your position as officer-for-life to get me kicked out of the guild for blogging."

Regardless of what you may think, non of the officers that were involved in any of this have so much as enquired about you being kicked.
 
Haha - don't worry Crav. I was asked to be patient with you because of some "special needs" it's suggested you have. I can only apologize for not taking this fully on board.

Happy "raiding" ;)
 
Hahaha Youch - It amuses me when you write your witty remarks, I can imagine you with a big smile on your face when you finish, feeling thoroughly pleased with yourself for being so clever haha.

I dont have such skills really, mine are in other areas :). I find it amusing that if it wasnt for your ability to hide behind a virtual name on a virtual board, you would proberbly sh*t yourself with any face to face confrontation. That also brings a smile to my face.

I love the fact the you left because of me Youch, I love the fact that I bothered you that much hahaha. The guild is moving in the right direction even if you dont think so, all the officers and GM's agree. So leave your pety comments at the door, its an old argument, and to be honest you lost it a long time ago.

;)

Crav
 
The only thing we lost was the integrity and decency of a once very good close-knit family guild. Obviously you're not solely responsible for that - merely a rotten apple contributing to the malaise - and, with due apology, I just can't resist an opportunity to remind folk of that.

The end result of the ill-fated move to become "Leet raiders"?

A dozen-odd valued members jumping ship to other guilds, valued old-timers relegated to the "other games" forum, a guild leader who hasn't logged on for six months, Wiv talking about the benefits of ditching DKP, and a much larger membership of faceless nonentities who , even now, achieve next to nothing in raiding terms!!

Still, you must be very proud.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing - foresight is even better. I still pop by the boards from time to time to watch the slow-motion car crash in progress, and I take no pleasure in saying that moving on turned out to be the right decision. I'm merely saddened for some of the "old school" members who continue to uphold everything that was good about Orc and who remember far better days.

Happy "raiding" ;)
 
I really treasure this comment thread. Not only because it is the first flame war on my blog, and what is an internet community without flame war. But also because it is so absurd.

Here we have two guys flaming each other, who left the guild for diametrically opposed reasons. One because the guild wasn't family-style enough, the other because it wasn't hardcore enough. The only thing that they do agree upon is that the people who are actually still in the guild are "faceless nonentities", and don't count in determining what the true core of ORC is.

I believe a guild is a living entity, which changes all the time. The only true ORC is the one still playing, no matter what game, no matter how infrequently. Wiv is a great guy who checks into the game regularly, and comes to all the guild meetings. If there is one person representing what the guild is, it is him. Loyalty is not expressed by leaving and claiming that your way is the true way. Loyalty is sticking with the guild, and guiding the natural development of the guild along certain principles. A "faceless nonentity" is somebody whose name nobody recognizes when it comes up in guild chat.
 
If we hadnt pushed for a more raid orientated guild, there would be no ORC guild in WoW. Or it would be another DAoC situation where the name ORC has no connection to the members that use the boards, and in essence there is a split.

Just because more people have time to play games than others doesnt mean they are more loyal. I left WoW for several reasons not just because it wasnt "hardcore" enough.
 
^^ Crav :D
 
Just catching up on this...err..."converstation" :D

Thanks for those kind words about me Tobold.

I just want to set one thing straight about my "break" in WoW that started about the same time many of the officers left, which nearly killed ORC in WoW (but not ORC itself). When those officers confronted me of the reality that they needed to leave, because they were no longer enjoying the game, I thoguht that it wouldn't be right to keep them playing under the ORC banner and be unhappy. Unhappy players aren't good for a guild, unhappy officers doubly so. With CoV around the corner, and with my stess levels reaching boiling point, I decided that for my own good, I needed a break. I recruited some new officers and went to great lengths in looking for a new GM to take over from me. But no one came forward :(. As it ended up though, the new officers formed a 3 way leadership that worked extremely well (being all had strenghts in different areas). They did a remarkable job in rebuilding ORC. And its all down to them that we now have a guild in a better position to raid whilst upholding our "family appeal".

There was no conspiracy to kill the guild. I think the officers that left regret how things transpired, but as they say, "what doesn't kill us makes us stronger" :)

We might not suceed in raiding, being that we don't demand total raid commitment. But we'll at least try, and listen to our members (Tobold included :P ). ORC the community will continue regardless of what happens. And I hope Tobold, you'll continue to join us in the journey :)
 
Oh, I plan to be with ORC for a long time to come. When I'm unhappy, you'll hear about it, because my first instinct is to try to change the things that make me unhappy, not to leave.

Also I consider MMORPGs as being games you can't win (nor lose). I joined the guild to have people to play with together. I'd rather play with them whatever they want to play, than to insist on a certain play style and change guilds until I found one that suits my style. I'm aware that this is an old-fashioned attitude which is currently going the way of the Dodo. But there is not much risk that I'll leave for another guild just because they offer 5-man dungeons every day.
 
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