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Thursday, February 16, 2006
Do we need an economy?
My first level 60 character in World of Warcraft, Raslebol, is a warrior. For some reason there are not many "bind on equip" epic items in the game that a warrior could use. I got a 1h-sword from a quest series in Scholomance, and the epic 1h-weapons available on the auction house are simply not as good as the blue sword I already have. I've never seen any purple plate mail armor parts for level 60 on the AH. The only epic item I could possibly buy there is the Skullflame Shield, and I'm not even really sure about that one, because it has a chance to deal some fire damage to all targets around me, which could seriously mess up crowd control if it awakes enemies that were sapped, shackled, or sheeped. So with Raslebol I never felt any "auction house envy".
With Kyroc, my level 54 priest, I don't have that tranquility. There are purple staves which he could use, the purple Truefaith Vestments pattern, and a lot of expensive enchanting recipes and materials. I had a closer look at the Truefaith Vestment pattern, which sells for between 200 and 400 gold, and then needs another 300 gold worth of materials to make the item. Crusader enchantment recipe, 400 gold. Glowing Brightwood Staff, 700 gold. And all this does for me is to annoy me. I know the stuff is so bloody expensive because there is no way to get these items by normal playing in a targeted way. These are all random drops with ridiculously low chances of dropping, at no specific location. Getting them is like winning the lottery. And I'm not sure that this is good game design.
Okay, camping items in Everquest wasn't perfect either. My personal record was 16 hours camping (not continously) for a Wooly Mammoth Cloak. But at least if you absolutely wanted the cloak, you knew where to go, and what to do. Killing a stupid ice goblin every 23 minutes until he drops his rare drop was boring. But farming gold in WoW for days and days to be able to buy the purple item you want from the auction house isn't better. It only encourages people to buy gold from gold farmers, which then further drives up the prices.
Now Kyroc certainly bought a lot of his equipment from the auction house, twinked by Raslebol. As I explained with the meta-level concept, having better than normal equipment makes you level faster, because you fight like somebody a few levels higher, but get xp based on your nominal character level. Nevertheless even that twinking has a disadvantage: If you already bought / received the best possible equipment, you rarely get any loot or quest rewards that are interesting to you. It will be more fun once Kyroc goes raiding places where his tier 1 blue gear drops, and he can find items for himself.
So I was wondering whether the ability to sell, send, or trade looted items and materials was absolutely necessary for a MMORPG. I could imagine a WoW without an auction house, in fact lots of newbies play for quite some time before they discover its existence. All items in WoW could be "bind on pickup", and every character would have to find his equipment himself. Then eliminate the stupid world drop items, and put all items in specific places, so if somebody is after a specific items, he has to organize a group for a specific place.
There could be one exception: Crafted items could be bind on equip like before, so that people could do tradeskills and have a market for their items. But even crafting would be more fun if the materials for crafting couldn't be bought.
Only crafted items on the auction house would seriously limit twinking and gold farming. You could further eliminate gold farming if you made it impossible to transfer or mail money. Depending on whether you would like to keep twinking or not, you could introduce a common bank slot that all characters on the same account can access, which is what Everquest 2 does.
Eliminating most of the player-to-player economy would make the game economy a lot more stable. Right now, whenever somebody in a MMORPG finds a bug that allows him to dupe or otherwise produce money in large amounts, it affects all the other players on his server. Making every character have to earn his money and items for himself, without a way of transfer, would create lots of insular one-man economies, which wouldn't be hurt if something goes wrong with one character. And in a way it would be more in the heroic spirit of the genre: The hero goes out in a quest for a specific item in the legends, he doesn't farm Hearthglen for two weeks to buy Excalibur in an auction.
- posted by Tobold @ 7:55 AM Permanent Link
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I'm working on Truefaith Vestments at the moment. The pattern dropped for me first time I did live strat (and most priest in my guild have either the pattern or the made vestments) and now it is largely a matter of going back to strat live until all the orbs I need drop (1/4 so far).
However I have thought about ways that they could make things a little easier. I wouldn't mind seeing something like server managed dkp for bossess. You do an instance, whatever stuff drops drops, and you earn a certain number of points towards whatever bosses you killed. So you may get lucky and what you wants drops. You may not, but at least you know you can buy what you want if you kill the boss 4 more times.
If the points were truly spent (like gold) you could then have varying point requirements on items dependant on the drop rates. So if something drops 10% of the time, you can buy it for 10x the boss dkp.
I don't really see this as any different to the way things are set up currently. Right now I have a rough idea of the drop rate, and I farm until what I want drops. What my suggestion would do is lower the chance that you get unlucky and what you want never drops. Of course developers would need more (or different) content then, so I doubt they would go for it.
However I have thought about ways that they could make things a little easier. I wouldn't mind seeing something like server managed dkp for bossess. You do an instance, whatever stuff drops drops, and you earn a certain number of points towards whatever bosses you killed. So you may get lucky and what you wants drops. You may not, but at least you know you can buy what you want if you kill the boss 4 more times.
If the points were truly spent (like gold) you could then have varying point requirements on items dependant on the drop rates. So if something drops 10% of the time, you can buy it for 10x the boss dkp.
I don't really see this as any different to the way things are set up currently. Right now I have a rough idea of the drop rate, and I farm until what I want drops. What my suggestion would do is lower the chance that you get unlucky and what you want never drops. Of course developers would need more (or different) content then, so I doubt they would go for it.
# posted by 
: 16/2/06 10:57
: 16/2/06 10:57
Crusader actually *does* drop in a specific location, in the Western Plaguelands. It's a bugger to get, I'm told (I've been suffering from a serious lack of being arsed to go camp for it), but you can focussedly work on getting it.
- Hugh
- Hugh
# posted by : 16/2/06 12:51
: 16/2/06 12:51
I think WoW's economy is part of the reason it is a success. It feeds the same type of innate human desire that Beanie Babies did. Do I get it personally? No. I didn't get Beanie Babies either - but obviously MOST people did so that makes it pretty clear what my opinion is worth. I know I don't need an economy to stay happy with a MMORPG - all I need is content. But I wouldn't ignore crafting and economies if I were creating a MMORPG today - not without something else to replace it in the game, something to give it an extra dimension of depth.
# posted by : 16/2/06 14:14
: 16/2/06 14:14
The Truefaith Vestment Pattern drops from Balnazzar in Scarlet Strat. If you want the pattern, repeatedly do Scarlet Strat Raids. Most groups will give preference on that pattern drop to a Priest-Tailor who needs it, much like class set items.
Similarly for the Formula: Enchant Weapon - Crusader. It drops from Scarlet Spellbinders in the Western Plaguelands. If you want it, go farm those until you're lucky enough to have it drop. (Know that others will be camping there as well, however.)
Same goes for many formulae and patterns. The epic world drops, e.g. Glowing Brightwood Staff, don't have a single drop location or enemy and have a much smaller chance of dropping. Hence farming for items such as that is ill-advised.
Personally, even though it leads to gold farming, twinking, and inflation, I am very glad WoW has the AH system. It makes items and components, common and rare alike, much more accessible. It also establishes a common market price point and currency (gold).
Two examples of other games without such a system. In Diablo 2, Stones of Jordan became the currency because gold was all but worthless. The economy was seriously messed up and far too fluid for my taste.
In Dark Age of Camelot, before Mythic introduced guild houses and vendors, there was little-to-no economy. No easy way to trade or sell goods, no need for currency to enable this and so forth. It was terribly annoying if you didn't like hoping for drops. Fortunately the vast majority of leveling was done by grinding and you/the group got plenty of drops while grinding, to sell or use. (I can remember getting over 4-5 variants of a useable staff while grinding in a pit somewhere for over 5 levels.)
My first game with an AH-system, Star Wars Galaxies, was really cool. It added a whole new dimension to the game, enabling me to gather resources and sell them on a galaxy-wide market based on the resources' qualities. I enjoyed it immensely. I think the establishment and maintenance of a responsive market is well worth the negatives, e.g. gold farming and twinking.
One specific point - if you put all items in specific places, you'd be back to non-instanced hunting, i.e. camping and farming and limited mobs to do it with. I hate that. Instances are one reason I *love* WoW. And the current system, instances, *does* have specific item-drop places.
When you hit 56-58 with your Priest, go run Dire Maul 5-15 times and pick up all the nice Priestly gear from there (Padre's Trousers, Whipvine Cord, Brightly Glowing Stone, Cloak of the Cosmos, Emerald Flame Ring, Mindtap Talisman, Robe of Everlasting Night, Rod of the Ogre Magi, class trinket book). Then tell me WoW doesn't have specific item-drop locations.
Similarly for the Formula: Enchant Weapon - Crusader. It drops from Scarlet Spellbinders in the Western Plaguelands. If you want it, go farm those until you're lucky enough to have it drop. (Know that others will be camping there as well, however.)
Same goes for many formulae and patterns. The epic world drops, e.g. Glowing Brightwood Staff, don't have a single drop location or enemy and have a much smaller chance of dropping. Hence farming for items such as that is ill-advised.
Personally, even though it leads to gold farming, twinking, and inflation, I am very glad WoW has the AH system. It makes items and components, common and rare alike, much more accessible. It also establishes a common market price point and currency (gold).
Two examples of other games without such a system. In Diablo 2, Stones of Jordan became the currency because gold was all but worthless. The economy was seriously messed up and far too fluid for my taste.
In Dark Age of Camelot, before Mythic introduced guild houses and vendors, there was little-to-no economy. No easy way to trade or sell goods, no need for currency to enable this and so forth. It was terribly annoying if you didn't like hoping for drops. Fortunately the vast majority of leveling was done by grinding and you/the group got plenty of drops while grinding, to sell or use. (I can remember getting over 4-5 variants of a useable staff while grinding in a pit somewhere for over 5 levels.)
My first game with an AH-system, Star Wars Galaxies, was really cool. It added a whole new dimension to the game, enabling me to gather resources and sell them on a galaxy-wide market based on the resources' qualities. I enjoyed it immensely. I think the establishment and maintenance of a responsive market is well worth the negatives, e.g. gold farming and twinking.
One specific point - if you put all items in specific places, you'd be back to non-instanced hunting, i.e. camping and farming and limited mobs to do it with. I hate that. Instances are one reason I *love* WoW. And the current system, instances, *does* have specific item-drop places.
When you hit 56-58 with your Priest, go run Dire Maul 5-15 times and pick up all the nice Priestly gear from there (Padre's Trousers, Whipvine Cord, Brightly Glowing Stone, Cloak of the Cosmos, Emerald Flame Ring, Mindtap Talisman, Robe of Everlasting Night, Rod of the Ogre Magi, class trinket book). Then tell me WoW doesn't have specific item-drop locations.
# posted by : 16/2/06 14:55
: 16/2/06 14:55
I didn't say that WoW doesn't have specific item-drop locations. But the gear you mention from DM, and you could add a long list of gears from other dungeons to that, is all bind-on-pickup. But the items that sell for hundreds of gold pieces in the AH are very often random world drops.
And of course I prefer specific locations *in instances* to specific locations for phat loot in the non-instanced outside world. Some places are horribly overcamped. In fact most of the anti-gold farmer sentiment is coming from them hogging all the best places in the game, which is only natural if you think that they are making their living by that.
The bazaar in SWG was cool because it had a price limit of 3000 credits. Maybe that would be another solution, limiting the maximum bid or buyout price to 99 gold 99 silver 99 copper. As it is, rare boe items fuel the gold farming from two sides: The gold farmers get a part of their gold from selling rare loot (which gets less rare if you do nothing but farming all day), and then they sell their gold to people who want to buy that Glowing Brightwood Staff.
And of course I prefer specific locations *in instances* to specific locations for phat loot in the non-instanced outside world. Some places are horribly overcamped. In fact most of the anti-gold farmer sentiment is coming from them hogging all the best places in the game, which is only natural if you think that they are making their living by that.
The bazaar in SWG was cool because it had a price limit of 3000 credits. Maybe that would be another solution, limiting the maximum bid or buyout price to 99 gold 99 silver 99 copper. As it is, rare boe items fuel the gold farming from two sides: The gold farmers get a part of their gold from selling rare loot (which gets less rare if you do nothing but farming all day), and then they sell their gold to people who want to buy that Glowing Brightwood Staff.
Drop rate on Truefaith Vestment pattern from Balnazzar, according to Thottbot: 2.5%
Great, only 40 raids there on average before finding that pattern. And then some jerk might still hit the "need" button, because he wants the huge amount of money the thing sells for. Rare tradeskill recipes really should be bind on pickup.
Great, only 40 raids there on average before finding that pattern. And then some jerk might still hit the "need" button, because he wants the huge amount of money the thing sells for. Rare tradeskill recipes really should be bind on pickup.
Okay, so the drop rate on the Truefaith Vestment pattern is abysmal. My apologies!
(Although I will note that I've seen players run specific instances 40+ times for certain items. My favorite has to be UBRS for the class chest piece drop from General Drakkisath, although Paladins "farming" the Emperor in BRD for the Lightforge Gauntlets is not uncommon. -- And arguably BRD is worse due to the Lyceum difficulty, lesser popularity, and lower level of the instance.)
I wouldn't mind that max AH price limit idea. It would artificially constrict the AH economy. I think it would also artificially deflate the prices on rare boe items since now there would be an extra added cost of finding a seller by messaging in cities.
And I agree, rare tradeskill recipes should be bop. That would help.
(Although I will note that I've seen players run specific instances 40+ times for certain items. My favorite has to be UBRS for the class chest piece drop from General Drakkisath, although Paladins "farming" the Emperor in BRD for the Lightforge Gauntlets is not uncommon. -- And arguably BRD is worse due to the Lyceum difficulty, lesser popularity, and lower level of the instance.)
I wouldn't mind that max AH price limit idea. It would artificially constrict the AH economy. I think it would also artificially deflate the prices on rare boe items since now there would be an extra added cost of finding a seller by messaging in cities.
And I agree, rare tradeskill recipes should be bop. That would help.
# posted by : 16/2/06 19:15
: 16/2/06 19:15
There is another easier way to make money to earn these items than grinding for cash - margin trading on the AH. I make, on average around 4-500 gold per week for probably 2-3 hours total time buying and then selling again on the AH. It takes a decent amount of cash to build up to this level of weekly profit, but it is possible. As long as you know what you're doing.
I have three alts who do this on the same server. As a side consequence, I have single handedly raised the average price of blues by more than 50% in the last four months, because people use auction mods like Auctioneer to track average prices. You really don't want to know how rich I am
But know this - by far the easiest way, in terms of effort and time, to make money in WoW is to margin trade on the AH with alts. Then you never need worry about grinding for anything that is BoE - you can just buy it.
I have three alts who do this on the same server. As a side consequence, I have single handedly raised the average price of blues by more than 50% in the last four months, because people use auction mods like Auctioneer to track average prices. You really don't want to know how rich I am
But know this - by far the easiest way, in terms of effort and time, to make money in WoW is to margin trade on the AH with alts. Then you never need worry about grinding for anything that is BoE - you can just buy it.
# posted by : 17/2/06 00:34
: 17/2/06 00:34
Trader that is what I did and you are forgetting to point out that any single day you could possibly lose just as much as you've made. AH fees eat up gold fast and kill the resale market.
That is why what you are probably cashing in on are enchanting supplies which have no listing fee. Or other items that sell for a lot more than their listing fees like lower end crafting materials.
My guess also is you cashed in on the war effort and the 500G a week is a bit unrealistic.
I had the AH down to a science and you can ask anyone I played with. On my best week I just broke 200G profit and most weeks hit 100G. I had every single thing I ever wanted in game (outside of raid loot) without an ounce of farming, without any epic drops, and without raiding.
You may make 500G but I doubt that is profit.
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That is why what you are probably cashing in on are enchanting supplies which have no listing fee. Or other items that sell for a lot more than their listing fees like lower end crafting materials.
My guess also is you cashed in on the war effort and the 500G a week is a bit unrealistic.
I had the AH down to a science and you can ask anyone I played with. On my best week I just broke 200G profit and most weeks hit 100G. I had every single thing I ever wanted in game (outside of raid loot) without an ounce of farming, without any epic drops, and without raiding.
You may make 500G but I doubt that is profit.
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