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Tuesday, February 07, 2006
Epic corruption
I can't help the feeling that places like Molten Core have a corrupting influence on the players. It works like this: These places are very, very hard, but also give the best epic rewards in the game. People want to have these epics, and so they are trying to overcome the challenges inherent in these place. It quickly becomes evident that these challenges can only be overcome by better organization, by setting up more and more rules. Who gets what loot for maximum group efficiency, which classes to invite, which talent builds to require, mandatory playing times, et cetera. In the end you find yourself looting the hardest boss in the game, but unfortunately your guild now resembles a fascist army more than a gathering of people who want to have fun.
I'm afraid for my guild. They are getting more and more successful in their raids (4 bosses down in MC), and the epic corruption effects are starting to show. They are starting huge fights over whether a hunter should or shouldn't roll on a epic weapon which has hunter on the list of allowed classes, but is probably more efficient in the hands of the main tank. They are organizing 2 Molten Core and 2 Zul'Gurub raids per week, and very little of the lesser stuff. And many of them are beginning to take this raiding and epic stuff far too seriously.
The worst is starting to think about people only in terms of their function, and not as a person. Turning one guy into the best main tank possible by giving him first shot on all the warrior loot is functionally the most efficient. But how does that make the other players behind the other characters in the raid feel, once they realized that they are somewhat secondary? A guild should be more than an efficient machine for farming epic loot. Actions which are not efficient at all in terms of guild killing efficiency, like helping newbies, doing lesser dungeons, occasional PvP days, or even just having a party, are the glue that holds a guild together. But many people forget that once they get their first sniff of a purple item.
The new dungeons of Ahn'Qiraj, once the war effort opens the Scarab Gate, is supposedly even harder than the existing raid dungeons. I don't think that this is a good idea for Blizzard. Giving people a challenge is all nice and well, but in my experience uber guilds are leading to a much higher burn-out rate of the players. Thus encouraging people to form into uber guilds by setting up content which only can be reached in such an organization only ends up losing players faster. You'd think that Blizzard would know that it was the accessibility of WoW to the casual gamer that earned them all those millions.
- posted by Tobold @ 1:32 PM Permanent Link
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true, it was a legendary item...but we had exactly the same issue when we first started hitting LBRS with purples!
Legendary items are even worse. They don't simply drop, the drop is only the start of a quest that requires the effort of a large number of people to get one guy his legendary item. That either ends up with one guy frustrated because the others aren't especially interested in spending lots of time and effort to help him finish that legendary quest, or with all others frustrated because they are being forced to work for this one guy.
Random rolls are good, modifying those rolls with some sort of point system which rewards people for having participated often is good too. But creating "first class" and "second class" guild members, with the best loot automatically going to the first class people is the surest way to split a guild.
Random rolls are good, modifying those rolls with some sort of point system which rewards people for having participated often is good too. But creating "first class" and "second class" guild members, with the best loot automatically going to the first class people is the surest way to split a guild.
this is exactly why I just cancelled my wow account trying to get a 40 man raid together is plain and simple NOT fun! hopefully the expansion will add some new 20 man dungeons
# posted by 
: 7/2/06 16:22
: 7/2/06 16:22
it still is fun, however some items with their procs are simply too generic. this leaves space open for discussion. it doesn't matter how large or small the group is where that specific item drops. the advantage of small groups is simply lack of certain classes :)
the legendary item in question flaw is simply that the class restriction is for hunter,rogue,paladin and warrior. this is simply not the case.
that's the good thing about set-items, nobody can whine. well they can, but it's pointless.
it would be wiser for blizzard to make legendary class-depended.
if there is such "class-restriction", make the procs als class-bases.
that means when a hunter wins it, it has more hunter-procs, when a warrior wins it, make it more warrior :)
less discussion, more fun of winning an legendary :)
the legendary item in question flaw is simply that the class restriction is for hunter,rogue,paladin and warrior. this is simply not the case.
that's the good thing about set-items, nobody can whine. well they can, but it's pointless.
it would be wiser for blizzard to make legendary class-depended.
if there is such "class-restriction", make the procs als class-bases.
that means when a hunter wins it, it has more hunter-procs, when a warrior wins it, make it more warrior :)
less discussion, more fun of winning an legendary :)
# posted by : 7/2/06 16:51
: 7/2/06 16:51
I meant its not fun for those who cant participate becuase of whatever reasons. I would rather be in a "succesful" MC raid arguing about a drop than waiting 30+ minutes for BGs or playing an alt...thats why I say smaller groups becuase its easier to get together ...less work more play!
# posted by : 7/2/06 18:44
: 7/2/06 18:44
My undead mage and my best friend's undead priest will begin running all the pre-MC instances, as we just hit 58. I intend to stay in this zone for some time. We will not even consider joining a guild until we hit 60 and have decent equipment.
Even then, I'm wondering whether I will ever go the MC route. I might look for a guild concentrating on ZG and the 20-man AQ instance. I'm hoping that can retain the fun, because most guilds are broken on the lava rocks of MC.
Even then, I'm wondering whether I will ever go the MC route. I might look for a guild concentrating on ZG and the 20-man AQ instance. I'm hoping that can retain the fun, because most guilds are broken on the lava rocks of MC.
Amen Tobold. Greed corrupts, and transforming a friendly family guild into something it could never be without blasé recruitment could only ever harm something once rather special. Years of careful nurturing disregarded, ethics ignored and a once-close community of casual gamers thrown to the wind, all for the sake of a few purple pixels.
Fun for the here-today/gone-tomorrow newcomers? Absolutely.
Just a shame for those old enough to recall better times. /sigh
Fun for the here-today/gone-tomorrow newcomers? Absolutely.
Just a shame for those old enough to recall better times. /sigh
# posted by : 8/2/06 01:46
: 8/2/06 01:46
hi, I'm in a large guild on the emerald dream server and I can see you're point on the epics - its now becoming hard for me to find things to do that will get me upgrade items - here are some pointers though.
I'm spending alot of time and having fun doing a little pvp but mostly getting rep with the different parties in wow. Being a druid/enchanter/tailor I'm picking up all the recipes I can get and putting together sets of gear for healing/mana regen/bear form tanking/cat dps.
In terms of inter-guild wrangling we've solved that in our guild by assigning a number of points to the guild members per hour spent on 'guild activities'. The more time you commit the more points you get. Then we use blind bidding of points to assign epics to people. What tends to happen is initially those who commit alot get alot of points and win the early epics, but as they spend their points those who get less time find they have the most points and can out-spend the others. It works out quite fairly and although I don't play alot I now own a fair bit of MC gear and I'm hoping to pick up some BWL gear. I guess being a druid makes it more interesting as some of the zul'gurub leather ware is better for pvp than the epics so I still have something to work for outside the big raids.
I hope you're guild gets past these growing pains in terms of just now entering the 'large raid' phase. good luck.
I'm spending alot of time and having fun doing a little pvp but mostly getting rep with the different parties in wow. Being a druid/enchanter/tailor I'm picking up all the recipes I can get and putting together sets of gear for healing/mana regen/bear form tanking/cat dps.
In terms of inter-guild wrangling we've solved that in our guild by assigning a number of points to the guild members per hour spent on 'guild activities'. The more time you commit the more points you get. Then we use blind bidding of points to assign epics to people. What tends to happen is initially those who commit alot get alot of points and win the early epics, but as they spend their points those who get less time find they have the most points and can out-spend the others. It works out quite fairly and although I don't play alot I now own a fair bit of MC gear and I'm hoping to pick up some BWL gear. I guess being a druid makes it more interesting as some of the zul'gurub leather ware is better for pvp than the epics so I still have something to work for outside the big raids.
I hope you're guild gets past these growing pains in terms of just now entering the 'large raid' phase. good luck.
Well stated Tobold... best of luck to you. I've seen half a dozen guilds on Azgalor get destroyed... a couple of them with close friends who no longer play the game because of it.
One guild in particular was together since the days of AC and had gone through DAoC together... then one of the founding members of the guild got kicked from a raid in favor of someone who had already purchased fire resist potions.
The raid leader was only in the guild since WoW and had no idea the guy he just kicked was an original member.
Within an hour the guild was disbanded in game and within a week the site was gone... years of forum talk with it.
One guild in particular was together since the days of AC and had gone through DAoC together... then one of the founding members of the guild got kicked from a raid in favor of someone who had already purchased fire resist potions.
The raid leader was only in the guild since WoW and had no idea the guy he just kicked was an original member.
Within an hour the guild was disbanded in game and within a week the site was gone... years of forum talk with it.
WORD to that! I think Blizzard should of also forcused on doing smaller solo man quests gfor lvl 60 instead of these HUGE 40 man raids! Like poster above working to find 40 people to do a raid takes HOURS ON TOP of actually DOING the raid! I have a job and a life! I can't commit that much time! I just DON'T have it! IF they gave players like me small solo quest I could play at my liesure at 60 that would be awesome! But they totaly dropped the ball!
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# posted by : 9/2/06 23:23
: 9/2/06 23:23<< Home
