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Friday, March 24, 2006
WoW raid math
Getting a level 60 character equipped with tier 0 armor and equivalent blue items isn't exactly a fast process. But compared to getting tier 1 armor from Molten Core, it is fast. So many people whose guild is finally strong enough to tackle Molten Core have unrealistic expectations of the purple loot they are going to get. But Blizzard designed getting equipment from raids to be slow, very slow, so as to keep hardcore gamers playing this part for a very long time. How slow? Well, lets do some simple math:
A WoW character has 17 item slots in which he can put items with magical bonuses. The other two slots, for shirt and tabbard, aren't filled by raid gear, so we can ignore them. A Molten Core raid has 40 people. So if an ideal guild has 40 players repeatedly going to MC to get themselves equipped with purple stuff, how long does it take before they are all "full epic"?
40 players times 17 slots makes 680 epic items you need to find. A complete Molten Core raid, killing all bosses, will give around 20 items, depending on how generous the trash mobs were with dropping epics. You can only complete Molten Core once a week, because even if you did it in a day, you'd still need to wait for the reset. Thus 680 divided by 20 makes 34 weeks, that is 8 months before your guild is equipped.
Of course not everybody needs purple items in every slot. But realistically you can't expect guilds to already earn 20 epics in their first MC week. And in later raids you'll often find items that nobody needs any more, so there are diminishing returns versus the end. If your guild farms about 10 epic items per week from MC, you'll still need a full month before everybody even gets one single purple item from the endeavor.
I see Molten Core as a good place for big guild events. You can have a large number of guild mates working together, and if you don't take wipes and lack of progress too serious, everybody can have a lot of fun. Going from being pwned by Lucifron to farming him status can be an inspiration for the spirit of the guild. But planning on using MC as the main way to get great equipment for people who just arrived at level 60 is bound to fail, because it is just too slow. And going to Molten Core too often, repeatedly wiping against the more difficult bosses, is wreaking havoc with the morale of a guild. Better do more smaller guild events, "farm" the smaller dungeons to get everybody in tier 0, and soon tier 0.5 gear, and see the few epic items the guild gets from MC as a bonus, not as a goal by itself. Just like in real life, if you continually push yourself to the limits, you carry a great risk of breaking down one day.
- posted by Tobold @ 9:03 AM Permanent Link
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The problem I have with this logic is that the blue items from the 5-15 man instances can't hold a candle to the MC loot. MC loot is just that much better.
Plus what you don't figure in is the equipment progression. If Warrior 1 goes to MC and manages to get 3 epics in the first 3 weeks, Warrior 2 will have a much greater likelihood of getting an epic from week 4 on, especially if some form of DKP is in place. This becomes more significant as the raiding group gets better, and faster, at MC. Yes, it takes time to reach that level but once you do the loot starts flowing very freely.
In joining an already-decently equipped guild that now has MC just about entirely on farm status, I managed to get 4 epics in my first 3 weeks of MC raiding. Do I expect this rate to hold? Of course not! But I do recognize that as "competing" guild members win items, that's one less competition for me when it comes around again. And that's not a bad incentive to stick around and keep "farming."
Plus, you really do need MC loot in order to tackle the harder instances, like BWL and AQ40. MC is the easiest of the 40-mans and will definitely help everyone gear up for the other instances and even ph4tter l3wtzorz.
Plus what you don't figure in is the equipment progression. If Warrior 1 goes to MC and manages to get 3 epics in the first 3 weeks, Warrior 2 will have a much greater likelihood of getting an epic from week 4 on, especially if some form of DKP is in place. This becomes more significant as the raiding group gets better, and faster, at MC. Yes, it takes time to reach that level but once you do the loot starts flowing very freely.
In joining an already-decently equipped guild that now has MC just about entirely on farm status, I managed to get 4 epics in my first 3 weeks of MC raiding. Do I expect this rate to hold? Of course not! But I do recognize that as "competing" guild members win items, that's one less competition for me when it comes around again. And that's not a bad incentive to stick around and keep "farming."
Plus, you really do need MC loot in order to tackle the harder instances, like BWL and AQ40. MC is the easiest of the 40-mans and will definitely help everyone gear up for the other instances and even ph4tter l3wtzorz.
# posted by 
: 24/3/06 14:35
: 24/3/06 14:35
Not all purples are created equal.
Certain critical toons must get priority on getting such gear, because without it, the later bosses are impossible. First in line is the main tank. One tank should get geared up as soon as possible, because his survivability determines, more than any other factor, whether a raid can take down the bosses.
With the tank able to hold aggro and survive multiple hits from bosses while the healers heal, the dps toons have the time to take the boss down. Unlike the tank, it doesn't matter which dps toon gets any specific purple, because that purple will contribute to the raid dps (or survivability, giving healers less work an therefore alloign them to concentrate on the tanks, both main and off). Healers are somewhere in the middle: healers dedicated to the main tank should get priority, becuase this contributes to the main tank's survivability.
Certain critical toons must get priority on getting such gear, because without it, the later bosses are impossible. First in line is the main tank. One tank should get geared up as soon as possible, because his survivability determines, more than any other factor, whether a raid can take down the bosses.
With the tank able to hold aggro and survive multiple hits from bosses while the healers heal, the dps toons have the time to take the boss down. Unlike the tank, it doesn't matter which dps toon gets any specific purple, because that purple will contribute to the raid dps (or survivability, giving healers less work an therefore alloign them to concentrate on the tanks, both main and off). Healers are somewhere in the middle: healers dedicated to the main tank should get priority, becuase this contributes to the main tank's survivability.
The scale is different though. The timer alone on the big raid zones is a limiting factor. But it's also the requirements.
What is a "Casual 60 Grind"? Farming, probably. But where does a Casual grind? If they play casual hours but are using all of them to raid MC, that's not very casual.
What is a "Casual 60 Grind"? Farming, probably. But where does a Casual grind? If they play casual hours but are using all of them to raid MC, that's not very casual.
Getting epics from MC is only slower due to the artificial barrier created by the instance reset timer. As far as actual time PLAYED, I think getting the blue dungeon sets is more time consuming unless you're very lucky.
Using the 34 week example, lets say you spend 4 hours each time in MC (that's on the high end too), that's 136 hours of play time. Let's say blue pieces average a 10% drop rate (some are more some are less), and you 5 man where possible to avoid competing for drops, and are able to complete each instance in 2 hours. On average, it will take you 20 hours of played time per blue piece, or 160 hours to get your full dungeon 0 set. That's 160 hours to get 8 blues, compared to 134 hours to get 17 epics. This is why I laugh when raiders say they "deserve" their epics based on time put into the game. Gimme a break.
Using the 34 week example, lets say you spend 4 hours each time in MC (that's on the high end too), that's 136 hours of play time. Let's say blue pieces average a 10% drop rate (some are more some are less), and you 5 man where possible to avoid competing for drops, and are able to complete each instance in 2 hours. On average, it will take you 20 hours of played time per blue piece, or 160 hours to get your full dungeon 0 set. That's 160 hours to get 8 blues, compared to 134 hours to get 17 epics. This is why I laugh when raiders say they "deserve" their epics based on time put into the game. Gimme a break.
# posted by : 24/3/06 18:24
: 24/3/06 18:24
As far as giving priority to the MT and/or others (e.g. MH), that's a sticky issue. In a group that's just gearing up and getting into MC, having the MT well-equipped makes a *tremendous* difference. It's also inherently unfair to the other Warriors. I don't have a good answer here because I don't think there is one - it's very situational based on what the raiding group (and other Warriors) is willing to accept.
Along a similar vein - using dropped cores (fiery & lava) and core leather to craft FR gear. If you can get your MT well-outfitted in FR gear, it makes many portions of MC a lot easier, including the lava packs, Geddon and Rags (though FR gear for Rags is sort of implicit). This is another sticky issue. My guild did something nice by collecting all of these components and then providing one piece of FR gear for each person, going through based on importance/class (e.g. Warriors first, Healers second, then others). Good approach in my opinion, but then our MT has some extra crafted FR gear and is well-outfitted (not to mention an Officer) so...
Along a similar vein - using dropped cores (fiery & lava) and core leather to craft FR gear. If you can get your MT well-outfitted in FR gear, it makes many portions of MC a lot easier, including the lava packs, Geddon and Rags (though FR gear for Rags is sort of implicit). This is another sticky issue. My guild did something nice by collecting all of these components and then providing one piece of FR gear for each person, going through based on importance/class (e.g. Warriors first, Healers second, then others). Good approach in my opinion, but then our MT has some extra crafted FR gear and is well-outfitted (not to mention an Officer) so...
# posted by : 24/3/06 18:45
: 24/3/06 18:45
Brian, of course once you have a full or nearly full set of tier 0 armor, going to Scholo/Strat/UBRS for gearing up becomes pointless. I was talking about people who just arrived at level 60, and who are in a big guild. I'd prefer if the big guild would run them through Scholo/Strat/UBRS a couple of times, instead of trying to get them Molten Core gear directly. Molten Core gets a lot easier if people a) got raid experience from smaller places, and b) are in full tier 0 or equivalent gear.
I respect your personal choice of gaming style, but I'm spending it dying. Repeatedly. In a 2-3 hour play session a repair bot is a necessity. ... 2 nights a week I'm dying over and over to the same bosses as we tweak and refine our strategy." does not sound like fun to me.
The way WoW is played from 1-60 I don't see as an "unfortunate precedent". I see it as the source of WoW's huge success, and the way that most people would like to continue playing. Thus the expansion with another 10 levels of easy accomplishments.
If there is anything unfortunate about the situation, it is how these two totally different play styles became mixed up. Why not have one easy game which goes on forever for the people who like it easy, and one challenging raid game, where you can raid from day 1 and aren't forced to level up so long?
I respect your personal choice of gaming style, but I'm spending it dying. Repeatedly. In a 2-3 hour play session a repair bot is a necessity. ... 2 nights a week I'm dying over and over to the same bosses as we tweak and refine our strategy." does not sound like fun to me.
The way WoW is played from 1-60 I don't see as an "unfortunate precedent". I see it as the source of WoW's huge success, and the way that most people would like to continue playing. Thus the expansion with another 10 levels of easy accomplishments.
If there is anything unfortunate about the situation, it is how these two totally different play styles became mixed up. Why not have one easy game which goes on forever for the people who like it easy, and one challenging raid game, where you can raid from day 1 and aren't forced to level up so long?
Right now my guild is working on beating Razorgore, the first (gateway) boss in BWL. We've had at least 18 attempts on him so far in the past 2 weeks, with 2 nights of 8 attempts each. Yes, dying repeatedly can be fun. Now imagine a semi-MC/Ony-decked-out group of 40 taking on the same boss 8 times in a row. But we have fun and hopefully we learn more about the encounter from our attempts and refine our strategy. Kinda neat.
# posted by : 27/3/06 22:54
: 27/3/06 22:54
I like the when people talk about getting gear from MC you do all of MC in 4 hour. This is only true went have done all the bosses meny time and can go thourgh it with no wipes. When you can getting epics from MC is easy, but if you really start MC then this is NOT HOW it works. I start MC with a guild where no one had more the one or two MC epics and it would have 4 hours for take lusi and we would hope to get to Mag. But really I dont mind. When you are learning each boss is the best part of the game. I love getting new epics, but I know ppl who join a BLW guild and get MC gear and it means nothing to them. Cause they did nothing for it. Learn to love the chalenges.
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# posted by : 9/4/06 07:21
: 9/4/06 07:21<< Home
