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Thursday, April 06, 2006
War(rior)! What is it good for?
My tier 0.5 upgrade quest series ended with a fundamental disagreement between me and Blizzard about what a warrior is for. After paying 60 gold for the gloves of valor, and another 150 gold for the different steps of the upgrade quest, I finally got the belt and gloves of heroism. Woot! The gloves are Raslebol's only epic.
At that point I was wearing the deathbone belt and gloves from the minor bosses in Scholomance. The deathbone stuff has a useless mana regeneration bonus, but good armor, stamina, and especially defence bonus. But of course they are much easier to get than tier 0.5, they aren't epic, and so the heroism stuff must be much better, musn't it? I put on the belt and gloves of heroism and notice that in comparison to before I have 358 defence instead of 373, a huge -15 change. I also have less stamina (thus less health), and less armor. What the heck? It turns out the heroism stuff is armor for offensive warriors. With heroism armor my dps goes up from 90 to 96, due to a huge strength bonus, and the gloves increase my crit chance by 1%.
Sorry, Blizzard, but I don't believe in offensively specced warriors. If I wanted to deal lots of damage in melee, I would have made a rogue. Offensive warriors are a hybrid between tank and rogue. Hybrids are good in soloing and PvP, but nobody would want an offensive warrior as main tank in a raid, or as only tank in a 5-man group.
So the tier 0.5 heroism armor is in the bank now. If ever I go on a raid with Raslebol as non-MT, I might take the stuff with me and wear them when I have just a damage dealing role. But for my favorite occupation of 5-man groups the heroism stuff is just plain useless. I think I'll try to get some more Deathbone armor instead, the set now has some really nice set bonuses.
- posted by Tobold @ 8:07 AM Permanent Link
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Totally agreed with your post. I have a level 60 priest and there are some people that asked me why did I not go Shadow specc'ed for the extra damage. Come on, if I want to do more damage, I would have rolled a warlock.
Even though some people may argue that Arms/ Fury Warriors are useful on raids but I beg to differ. As a warrior, people expect you to take damage and NOT cause damage.
Same goes for priests. When people look for a priest, they expect you to heal. Bringing a bunch of shadow specs into group that do not help you heal better is just wrong, in my opinion.
Only if people understand that even though Blizzard provides us three different talent trees for every class, in actual fact, there is only one that would ultilise your class potentials to the fullest.
Then, people should be allowed to play the way they want to. It is just harder to play a hybrid class because of the difference in expectations. I am sure all the druid players would agree with me on this.
Even though some people may argue that Arms/ Fury Warriors are useful on raids but I beg to differ. As a warrior, people expect you to take damage and NOT cause damage.
Same goes for priests. When people look for a priest, they expect you to heal. Bringing a bunch of shadow specs into group that do not help you heal better is just wrong, in my opinion.
Only if people understand that even though Blizzard provides us three different talent trees for every class, in actual fact, there is only one that would ultilise your class potentials to the fullest.
Then, people should be allowed to play the way they want to. It is just harder to play a hybrid class because of the difference in expectations. I am sure all the druid players would agree with me on this.
Nah they each have their place. Blizzard were just giving the offensive warriors out there an option. Which I think was nice of them.
# posted by 
: 6/4/06 10:31
: 6/4/06 10:31
"Welcome to the world of Unbalancecraft". Seriously. Just accept the total overpower of this warrior class. You have a tank monopoly and you can switch to 80%-90% single target rogue dps, or even more on on multiple target DPS. The thing is, rogues are the bards of WoW. You know the mindless twitchers, wich suffer from multiple finger illnesses, when they are done with this game. Fury Warriors are the lazy mans (thats me! ;D ) melee DPS. My twink is one, and its DPS is truly ridiculous, even in crap gear.
Ask some bleeding edge guilds, how their warriors are specced. You wont see much defense specced, cause this specc is so static, where fury and arms are much more dynamic: when your are not main tank you can deal damage, while defense warriors can not.
Only if people understand that even though Blizzard provides us three different talent trees for every class, in actual fact, there is only one that would ultilise your class potentials to the fullest.
With me playing a paladin and a warrior as a twink, i have to smile about this sentence. You see one of this two classes has ONE valuable tree (Holy), while the other has ONE extreme non-valuable (Defense) tree. Your sentence and Tobolds entry would be completly correct, if the warriors 31 defense talent would be the taunt skill. Up to then, this class is an offensive melee class in 90% of all the player speccs.
This is a side-effect, when you give a monopoly to a core class and provide it with the best equipment and endless offensive skills, wich are out of its monopoly area.
Ask some bleeding edge guilds, how their warriors are specced. You wont see much defense specced, cause this specc is so static, where fury and arms are much more dynamic: when your are not main tank you can deal damage, while defense warriors can not.
Only if people understand that even though Blizzard provides us three different talent trees for every class, in actual fact, there is only one that would ultilise your class potentials to the fullest.
With me playing a paladin and a warrior as a twink, i have to smile about this sentence. You see one of this two classes has ONE valuable tree (Holy), while the other has ONE extreme non-valuable (Defense) tree. Your sentence and Tobolds entry would be completly correct, if the warriors 31 defense talent would be the taunt skill. Up to then, this class is an offensive melee class in 90% of all the player speccs.
This is a side-effect, when you give a monopoly to a core class and provide it with the best equipment and endless offensive skills, wich are out of its monopoly area.
# posted by : 6/4/06 10:45
: 6/4/06 10:45
I kind of like the fact that most classes can spec to fill two different roles, even if one of them is often less desirable in a group than the other.
And note that while the Warrior 0.5 site may be damage-oriented, the Warrior T1 and T2 sets are *completely* defense-oriented. Damage Warriors generally dislike the pigeonhole Blizzard forces them into with those sets. Similarly for the Priest T1 and T2 sets which are purely healing-oriented. So the 0.5 set being a bit more hybrid isn't necessarily a bad thing since there aren't all that many like options out there for such sets.
And note that while the Warrior 0.5 site may be damage-oriented, the Warrior T1 and T2 sets are *completely* defense-oriented. Damage Warriors generally dislike the pigeonhole Blizzard forces them into with those sets. Similarly for the Priest T1 and T2 sets which are purely healing-oriented. So the 0.5 set being a bit more hybrid isn't necessarily a bad thing since there aren't all that many like options out there for such sets.
# posted by : 6/4/06 14:10
: 6/4/06 14:10
I guess you can justify the tier 0.5 stuff being more hybrid by saying that the tier 0.5 upgrade quest is more targeted at the solo player, and hybrid is generally more solo-friendly than specialist.
But I have trouble believing that the main tank of a raiding guild would wear armor with a big strength bonus, no defence bonus, and relatively low stamina and armor. Of course if there are more warriors in the raid than needed for tanking, the extra dps is nice. But as respeccing between offensive and defensive every time I switch role isn't possible, I'll stay on the defensive side, which is more useful for 5-man groups and main tanks.
But I have trouble believing that the main tank of a raiding guild would wear armor with a big strength bonus, no defence bonus, and relatively low stamina and armor. Of course if there are more warriors in the raid than needed for tanking, the extra dps is nice. But as respeccing between offensive and defensive every time I switch role isn't possible, I'll stay on the defensive side, which is more useful for 5-man groups and main tanks.
It's interesting that Blizzard has decided with epics to forego using the enhancement software routines that they already have in place. It would be relatively easy for them to have 2 or 3 variants of the Heroism items, for "of Defense" and "of Strength" for the variously specced warriors. About the only piece they'd have to change is the software specific to selecting from one of a smaller pool of possible enhancements.
# posted by : 6/4/06 18:24
: 6/4/06 18:24
Yeah, assuming this tier 0.5 stuff is a straight quest result, there's a mechanic in place for offering a choice of multiple rewards for a quest, isn't there?
--GF
--GF
# posted by : 6/4/06 19:37
: 6/4/06 19:37
But then Blizzard would have to come up with not just 1 new set per class but multiple ones. Paladins need 2, Warriors 2, Druids 2, Priests 2, Mages could get 3 (one for each damage type), etc. That's too much, though it would be *very* nice.
~//~
Tobold, in my guild, we have 7-8 Warriors or so. Of those, 4-5 are defense spec and act as our MT (for MC) for most pulls and bosses. If needed, non-defense spec Warriors chip in for things like lava packs and Garr and Domo (where you may need or want +4 Warriors). Otherwise, the offense spec Warriors dps the rest of the time.
If you have enough Warriors (or a surplus), the guild can easily support non-defense spec Warriors. Heck, one of our Paladins is a "dps"/Ret Pally! (He even does "good" dps!) We can easily support him amidst 3-5 other Pally's in the raid who are *not* dps/Ret oriented. Similarly we have 1 Shadow Priestess and at least 1 Feral Druid. As long as that class isn't *all* of the less-desirable spec, having a few around doesn't hurt.
~//~
Tobold, in my guild, we have 7-8 Warriors or so. Of those, 4-5 are defense spec and act as our MT (for MC) for most pulls and bosses. If needed, non-defense spec Warriors chip in for things like lava packs and Garr and Domo (where you may need or want +4 Warriors). Otherwise, the offense spec Warriors dps the rest of the time.
If you have enough Warriors (or a surplus), the guild can easily support non-defense spec Warriors. Heck, one of our Paladins is a "dps"/Ret Pally! (He even does "good" dps!) We can easily support him amidst 3-5 other Pally's in the raid who are *not* dps/Ret oriented. Similarly we have 1 Shadow Priestess and at least 1 Feral Druid. As long as that class isn't *all* of the less-desirable spec, having a few around doesn't hurt.
# posted by : 6/4/06 21:07
: 6/4/06 21:07
---
winter said...
Nah they each have their place. Blizzard were just giving the offensive warriors out there an option. Which I think was nice of them.
---
Thanks for your constructive and well-thought comment. Point taken...oh wait there is none.
Gotta love the trolls. They make good warriors. What race is Raslebol, Tobold?
winter said...
Nah they each have their place. Blizzard were just giving the offensive warriors out there an option. Which I think was nice of them.
---
Thanks for your constructive and well-thought comment. Point taken...oh wait there is none.
Gotta love the trolls. They make good warriors. What race is Raslebol, Tobold?
# posted by : 7/4/06 07:34
: 7/4/06 07:34
Raslebol is a troll. :) The improved regeneration and the berzerking are both quite useful for warriors. But surprisingly trolls are one of the least popular warrior races out there, I never understood why.
I didn't want to start another flame war. Of course offensive warriors are playable, and they have their place in this game. For soloing, for PvP, and as "extras" in a raid they are good, and it is good that Blizzard provides the option to play that way.
I'm just saying that if you planned a 5-man group expedition to some hard dungeon, you'd rather take a defensive warrior and a holy priest than an aggressive warrior and a shadow priest. And while the warrior with the +strength equipment might be useful in a raid, nobody is going to let him play main tank.
I didn't want to start another flame war. Of course offensive warriors are playable, and they have their place in this game. For soloing, for PvP, and as "extras" in a raid they are good, and it is good that Blizzard provides the option to play that way.
I'm just saying that if you planned a 5-man group expedition to some hard dungeon, you'd rather take a defensive warrior and a holy priest than an aggressive warrior and a shadow priest. And while the warrior with the +strength equipment might be useful in a raid, nobody is going to let him play main tank.
It's all good. Trolls are indeed the better race for warriors like what you said, regen and berserk. Everyone of us have a different understanding and interpretations of the game we play, which makes MMOG more fun.
However, like yourself, I was a EQ player for almost 5 years. You could say WoW is an entirely different entity from EQ but the fundamentals are the same. MMOGs are about teamworks, each and everyone of us have certain strong and weak points, which gamers and developers called Game Balancing.
When I said certain talent would be better off for a certain class, I am talking in the perspective of high end instances. In PVE, it is not only how you want to play the game that counts, how much you can contribute plays a part too. If I was a warrior, I want to be a good tank and defensive is a good choice at that.
However, if I wanna PVP as a warrior, I would go Arms/ Fury. I can play how I want and there is nothing anyone else can do to stop me.
Just my opinion.
However, like yourself, I was a EQ player for almost 5 years. You could say WoW is an entirely different entity from EQ but the fundamentals are the same. MMOGs are about teamworks, each and everyone of us have certain strong and weak points, which gamers and developers called Game Balancing.
When I said certain talent would be better off for a certain class, I am talking in the perspective of high end instances. In PVE, it is not only how you want to play the game that counts, how much you can contribute plays a part too. If I was a warrior, I want to be a good tank and defensive is a good choice at that.
However, if I wanna PVP as a warrior, I would go Arms/ Fury. I can play how I want and there is nothing anyone else can do to stop me.
Just my opinion.
Well sure, I'd rather take a defense spec Warrior and/or a Holy spec Priest but it's not mandatory. Yes, they'd make things easier but I've found WoW to be more item-dependent than spec-dependent. As long as that Shadow spec Priest doesn't try to keep the group alive with +shadow dmg gear, chances are you'll be okay. Likewise the Warrior as your MT. He'll get the job done if he has some decent tanking equipment (vs. +str/+crit gear).
# posted by : 7/4/06 13:50
: 7/4/06 13:50
totally disagree
i'm an offensively specced warrior with top 3 dps in our guild's MC run
but i MT totally fine in 5, 10 man instances
just keep a seperate set of tanking gear, and when it's time to tank, switch to it
but back to the set, imho, heroism set is defensive cos it adds many defense and not nearly enough strength
but at least the direction its going is little better than the t0, t1, t2 sets which are all made for tanks
i'm an offensively specced warrior with top 3 dps in our guild's MC run
but i MT totally fine in 5, 10 man instances
just keep a seperate set of tanking gear, and when it's time to tank, switch to it
but back to the set, imho, heroism set is defensive cos it adds many defense and not nearly enough strength
but at least the direction its going is little better than the t0, t1, t2 sets which are all made for tanks
# posted by : 13/4/06 06:24
: 13/4/06 06:24
I play 31/5/15 specced warrior with mortal strike and essential tanking talents (anticipation, toughness and defiance). I haven't yet ventured in MC with my warrior but in zul gurub i do dps and tanking, depending on the boss. I can really do good dmg and i'am able to tank very good as well. I also use to completely different sets of equipment for those roles. Saying that no one wante dps oriented warriors in 5 man grps is complete nonsense. Yes, ppl don't like to take offensive warriors in that roll becuase they usually use their regular dps equipment and 2h or 2x 1h weapons. Point is, player who are playing like that are not good warriors. Depending on the role in the party, each warrior should have 2x sets of equipment (includin weapons and shield for tanking) and should play in different manner. With my warrior in dps role i can be in top 5 places regarding damage dealt in raid and when i tank, i tank...i don't care about dmg done, i care about having mobs on me and not on dmg dealers and healers.
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# posted by : 21/6/06 11:08
: 21/6/06 11:08<< Home
