Tuesday, September 05, 2006
Fighting over loot
Raids fighting over loot seems to be inevitable. Most guilds have some sort of loot distribution system, using points (DKP) or some other form of rotation list. And that usually works well for all class specific items, like the tier 1 sets from Molten Core. Where the fighting starts is when an item drops that can be used by several classes.
Now you can handle inter-class items with DKP as well. But there is a definitive possibility that somebody wants to have an item which is useable, but not all that great for his class, and would help another class more. A prime example is the proverbial "hunter weapon", a hunter being awarded a melee weapon, which would have found better use if wielded by some melee class. So most raid groups have a master looter declaring what classes can bid for this or that item. And somebody with more DKP, but playing a sub-optimal class for that item, might well lose out.
The problem is that this is a slippery slope. There are items that are obviously unsuited to this or that class. But other items are just marginally better for one class than for the other. And as soon as somebody has to actually make a decision which class is allowed to have a specific item, somebody will certainly disagree with that decision, and the fighting starts.
Some arguments used in disputing who gets what loot are just incompatible. A typical argument is that an item should go to some character for whom it is the biggest upgrade, thus making the whole of the guild stronger. Unfortunately that doesn't mix well with a DKP system, because the basic principle of a DKP system is that whoever raids most, gets the most epics, thus any additional epic he finds is a lesser upgrade for him than for somebody who rarely raids.
Another typical argument used in loot fights is "that class gets another, better, item of the same type elsewhere". For example my Alliance guild has a "priests can't get the Will of Arlokk staff, because they get Benediction" rule. Unfortunately "getting Benediction" isn't that easy and automatic. You need an item from the last but one boss in Molten Core, Majordomo Executus, and the item only drops half of the time. As you can only kill Majordomo once a week, and every priest in your guild probably wants that item too, you could be waiting months before you are even just getting the first quest piece. And then you still need to farm level 60 elite demons, which are impossible to solo for a priest, for the next piece, which has just a 0.6% drops chance. And then you still need to master a rather hard event quest to finally get the staff. In my opinion the argument about some hypothetical item elsewhere should never influence the loot discussion of the item on hand. There is *always* a better item, you just might to have to kill Kel'Thuzad for it. ;)
As if loot distribution wasn't already complicated enough, it gets even harder when people decide to spec their characters in an unusual way. What items should a shadow priest be allowed to get? Does he get lower priority on priest set items, because they usually just give bonuses to healing? Does he get items which increase spell damage, in spite of the warlocks and mages wanting those too? As much care as Blizzard took to make the three talent trees of every class viable, the class set items often don't support all three talent specializations. And if you have to rely on inter-class items, you're probably getting into a lot of loot fights.
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Hi Tobold,
As part of work we're doing on Warmath, an Intelligent DKP system, we're currently addressing the fundamental question of "Which Stats Are Useful to Which Classes?"
You might want to take a look here:
http://forums.subcreation.net/viewtopic.php?t=1192
--alcaras
As part of work we're doing on Warmath, an Intelligent DKP system, we're currently addressing the fundamental question of "Which Stats Are Useful to Which Classes?"
You might want to take a look here:
http://forums.subcreation.net/viewtopic.php?t=1192
--alcaras
Now DKP has its place, but not in a large guild with constant member turnover, in my opinion.
In my opinion it depends on the type of DKP system used. For example a zero-sum DKP system is famous for treating hardcore members, long-term irregulars, and turnover people equally fair, because there is no DKP point accumulation. If players A, B, and C of the same class go to 6, 4, and 2 raids per week, player A ends up with trice as many epics as C, and B has twice as many, totally in accordance to their relative raid attendance.
Epic distribution gets distorted by having more or less "rare" classes. If your raids always have 8 warriors and 4 priests, it is obvious that the priests end up with twice as many epics as the warriors.
In my opinion it depends on the type of DKP system used. For example a zero-sum DKP system is famous for treating hardcore members, long-term irregulars, and turnover people equally fair, because there is no DKP point accumulation. If players A, B, and C of the same class go to 6, 4, and 2 raids per week, player A ends up with trice as many epics as C, and B has twice as many, totally in accordance to their relative raid attendance.
Epic distribution gets distorted by having more or less "rare" classes. If your raids always have 8 warriors and 4 priests, it is obvious that the priests end up with twice as many epics as the warriors.
In all honesty, people go to such obscene lengths to avoid the random roll, when in the long run it is the fairest of all, IMO.
In the long run everything is fair, cause your guild will not progress when player-x is decked out in ubor gear, but when everyone is. Loot will have to spread out, or the guild will get stuck. The moment the majority of players get that, the guild will be free of almost any loot drama. I do admit though you nowadays need DKPs to fight todays turnover rates, but when you have a static core of players, any loot system will work in the long run, as longs as there is progress.
I am againts DKP nowadays though. Too many people saving points for the rare stuff wich never drops and wich doesn't even fit their class. It's a massive penalty for a serious raiding guild. We have loot officiers now, and there wasn't any bitching for the last 4 month, though some new people quit, after realizing their loot gets choosen for them by others. Many hate that too, oh well you can't satisfied everyone.
Did you saw the fresh Karazhan video? That instance is so damn massive and it´s for 10 players only. Even judging by the size of the zone, there must be huge numbers of loots per run. So i hope the problem of loot distribution improves by the lower raid sized too.
In the long run everything is fair, cause your guild will not progress when player-x is decked out in ubor gear, but when everyone is. Loot will have to spread out, or the guild will get stuck. The moment the majority of players get that, the guild will be free of almost any loot drama. I do admit though you nowadays need DKPs to fight todays turnover rates, but when you have a static core of players, any loot system will work in the long run, as longs as there is progress.
I am againts DKP nowadays though. Too many people saving points for the rare stuff wich never drops and wich doesn't even fit their class. It's a massive penalty for a serious raiding guild. We have loot officiers now, and there wasn't any bitching for the last 4 month, though some new people quit, after realizing their loot gets choosen for them by others. Many hate that too, oh well you can't satisfied everyone.
Did you saw the fresh Karazhan video? That instance is so damn massive and it´s for 10 players only. Even judging by the size of the zone, there must be huge numbers of loots per run. So i hope the problem of loot distribution improves by the lower raid sized too.
Too many people saving points for the rare stuff wich never drops and wich doesn't even fit their class. It's a massive penalty for a serious raiding guild.
I have seen this behavior too often. People in blues (sometimes sub-par blues, at that), pass on tier 1 class set armor because they are hoarding points for some rare Nef drop. This hurts the guild, and such a player rarely has a shot at the drop if and when it does happen.
I have seen this behavior too often. People in blues (sometimes sub-par blues, at that), pass on tier 1 class set armor because they are hoarding points for some rare Nef drop. This hurts the guild, and such a player rarely has a shot at the drop if and when it does happen.
Although our raid has a DKP system it hardly matters.
When someone needs an item he just /rnd and the class leader decides who will get it. The decision is based on dedication and participation of the single member as well as the current equipment and what he got "last time".
DKP only matter when more than one class want a specific item and nobody is willing to pass. But this is very uncommon.
I guess, this works only so well because the raid already killed C'thun and most of the experienced players don't need loot from MC nor BWL. So the new players get their epics quick (one priest got 7/8 T1 in two MC runs) but have to wait a while before they can get AQ40 loot. Although it is not impossible if you show dedication to the raid (activity in the forums, farming, enchanting your equipment etc).
When someone needs an item he just /rnd and the class leader decides who will get it. The decision is based on dedication and participation of the single member as well as the current equipment and what he got "last time".
DKP only matter when more than one class want a specific item and nobody is willing to pass. But this is very uncommon.
I guess, this works only so well because the raid already killed C'thun and most of the experienced players don't need loot from MC nor BWL. So the new players get their epics quick (one priest got 7/8 T1 in two MC runs) but have to wait a while before they can get AQ40 loot. Although it is not impossible if you show dedication to the raid (activity in the forums, farming, enchanting your equipment etc).
I've always been against a straight DKP system because of the second poster's "no-lifer" type people. I was in a raiding guild in EQ for years, and with my 60-70% attendance rate I did ok - occasionally losing the item I wanted to one of the burst raiders or a lifer gearing up their second alt - but the other big raiding guild on the server had a nice decaying DKP structure that really leveled the playing field.
What was the part that used to get me furious was how several of the no-lifers were also guild officers, and thus planned out the targets. After they got their gear for themselves and/or alts, the target was never hit again. DKP pain + self-promotion = frustrated people.
I really enjoyed the NBG system they used to have, but I realize that it's almost impossible to run a major raiding guild, with the inevitable turnover, on a NBG basis. You'd continously be gearing up people who would leave when they got set.
What was the part that used to get me furious was how several of the no-lifers were also guild officers, and thus planned out the targets. After they got their gear for themselves and/or alts, the target was never hit again. DKP pain + self-promotion = frustrated people.
I really enjoyed the NBG system they used to have, but I realize that it's almost impossible to run a major raiding guild, with the inevitable turnover, on a NBG basis. You'd continously be gearing up people who would leave when they got set.
DKP systems are there make sure that loot distribution is tied to attendance. Epics given to regulars will benefit the raid more because they will be there more often. Zero-sum and dkp decay systems are there to mitigate dkp inflation. DKP systems have a side benefit in rewarding attendance to new encounters were wipes are frequent and loot non-existant. If it was all random roll, there's less incentive to learn a new boss. Less hardcore people will get epics, just after the regulars. Random is fair but sometimes not just. DKP is just but sometimes not fair.
every priest should have both staffs
arlokk for regeneration
give it +20 spirit and you have 55 spirit on one item
a must have at least for every spirit specced priest
benediction for healing
in my opinion totally stupid to prevent the priests from getting it
arlokk for regeneration
give it +20 spirit and you have 55 spirit on one item
a must have at least for every spirit specced priest
benediction for healing
in my opinion totally stupid to prevent the priests from getting it
If your raid can kill Majordomus, priest should go for Benediction first. Just because you don't need a spare weapon when other healers don't have a main weapon ;)
@brian:
If you want to progress, you should keep in mind what is the best for the raid. Not all guilds or raiders ar this mature.
Warriors (at least in our raid) suffer from a huge drawback. They need the expensive T2/T3 set when tanking and some kind of Offgear when doing damage. Denying one of those because of DKP will hurt the raid badly.
Our MT3 (8/8 T1, 4/8 T2) has a huge amount of negative DKP but when we fight the twin emperors he is in the Top3 of the damagedealers.
@brian:
If you want to progress, you should keep in mind what is the best for the raid. Not all guilds or raiders ar this mature.
Warriors (at least in our raid) suffer from a huge drawback. They need the expensive T2/T3 set when tanking and some kind of Offgear when doing damage. Denying one of those because of DKP will hurt the raid badly.
Our MT3 (8/8 T1, 4/8 T2) has a huge amount of negative DKP but when we fight the twin emperors he is in the Top3 of the damagedealers.
If your raid can kill Majordomus, priest should go for Benediction first.
My alliance priest hasn't raided MC yet. My horde priest goes to MC every week, but we had a bad streak where for 6 weeks in a row the hunter's leaf dropped instead of the eye needed for priests benediction. So I'm happy I have the Will of Arlokk for my horde priest, because otherwise I'd still be running around with a blue staff from LBRS.
I say again, I'm confused by some of the guilds that you guys talk about.
I know that same confusion, took me some time to get used to it. Point is that WoW guilds most of the time are fundamentally different from EQ guilds, having a much higher turnover. Players get trained to be more egoistic, because stepping back for the "good of the guild" and let somebody else have some item isn't a good idea if that somebody is switching to another guild next week. I don't like it either, but I have learned to live with it. If you are still in an old-style close-knit guild with low turnover and high loyalty, count yourself lucky.
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My alliance priest hasn't raided MC yet. My horde priest goes to MC every week, but we had a bad streak where for 6 weeks in a row the hunter's leaf dropped instead of the eye needed for priests benediction. So I'm happy I have the Will of Arlokk for my horde priest, because otherwise I'd still be running around with a blue staff from LBRS.
I say again, I'm confused by some of the guilds that you guys talk about.
I know that same confusion, took me some time to get used to it. Point is that WoW guilds most of the time are fundamentally different from EQ guilds, having a much higher turnover. Players get trained to be more egoistic, because stepping back for the "good of the guild" and let somebody else have some item isn't a good idea if that somebody is switching to another guild next week. I don't like it either, but I have learned to live with it. If you are still in an old-style close-knit guild with low turnover and high loyalty, count yourself lucky.
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