Saturday, September 16, 2006
Raiding Blackwing Lair
I spent last night in BWL, 4 hours, wiping 9 times. My guild mates were telling me that we were making progress, getting down to single digit numbers of eggs left by the time we wiped. But to me that seemed like the progress you make if you repeatedly run against a steel door: You might leave visible dents in the door, but the damage to your shoulder is a lot bigger than that. Frankly, I can't see the fun in that.
Now you might think my guild just isn't very good. But as we can clear Molten Core in 5 hours, Ragnaros included, I don't think we are that bad. BWL is simply too hard, or more specifically the difficulty gap between the last boss of MC and the first boss of BWL is too big. From a smooth gameplay flow point of view it would be a lot less frustrating if the first boss of the next harder dungeon wasn't harder to kill than the last boss of the previous dungeon.
What I would really like to do is forget about BWL for the moment, wait until the expansion comes out, level up to 70, and then do BWL in easy mode. Because my interest in that place is to see it up to the end. I don't really care about the loot that much, so I wouldn't mind waiting until level 70. Unfortunately letting BWL be won't be possible. The guild is short on priests, yesterday we had just 3 for BWL, and the peer pressure on me to attend BWL raids and stay on for wipe after wipe is immense. I'd currently be more interested in AQ20, but most guildies have already done ZG, AQ20, and MC to exhaustion, and are sick and tired of these places.
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BWL is incredibly rewarding once you get the hang of each encounter, much more so than MC IMO. The difference between BWL and MC isn't necessarily difficulty in terms of HP and damage dealt by bosses, but rather an increase in the skill and teamwork required to triumph. This is especially the case with Razorgore, which is incredibly hectic in phase 1. Stick with it and you will find BWL to be great fun long after MC has become boring.
The push to repeatly wipe on the first boss in BWL was one of the leading factors which forced my guild to reform. As it stood most of our core raiders were still missing most of their tier 1 set from Molten Core and didn't feel like spending time wiping on Razorgore until we were better equipped.
I always felt the reason for BWL being such a big jump in difficulty was to hold onto the hardcore raider element by presenting them with a challenge. The game was released with only MC and Onyxia for raiders and I believe they quickly got bored with them.
I always felt the reason for BWL being such a big jump in difficulty was to hold onto the hardcore raider element by presenting them with a challenge. The game was released with only MC and Onyxia for raiders and I believe they quickly got bored with them.
I believe MC and most of the end Dungeons are set up like that, where the downed Bosses do not reset for a certain time period, like 72 hours, etc. The trash mobs & patrols will still need to be killed again, but a Guild not capable of consistently taking out the trash Mobs in MC shouldn't be in there in the first place.
Tobold
our Guild alliance is at nearly the same spot as yours. We went through MC in 4 hours and 30 minutes and we killed Skeram. We had two or three goes at Razorgore (3 evenings not 3 tries) the first two do not really count, as lag and constant disconnecting made it impossible, but we tried to get the hang of this encounter.
The third evening was michz better, we have wiped around 10 times aswell and we stopped trying after 3 hours, as we all were pretty exhausted, but we managed to get to 2 remaining Eggs, so we are looking forward to be able to get to phase two. As far as i have hgeard the second part is not very hard anymore.
The most important part is, that everyone in the raid had fun during those tries. There was a lot of nice social chatter inbetweeen very focussed tries. And this really was worth the 20g in repaircosts to me.
I can imagine, that this eencounter can be very nasty, if peoplee start moaning and accusing each other of being the one causing the wipe.
I am looking very forward to master this encounter.
Yours
Savvrukk
our Guild alliance is at nearly the same spot as yours. We went through MC in 4 hours and 30 minutes and we killed Skeram. We had two or three goes at Razorgore (3 evenings not 3 tries) the first two do not really count, as lag and constant disconnecting made it impossible, but we tried to get the hang of this encounter.
The third evening was michz better, we have wiped around 10 times aswell and we stopped trying after 3 hours, as we all were pretty exhausted, but we managed to get to 2 remaining Eggs, so we are looking forward to be able to get to phase two. As far as i have hgeard the second part is not very hard anymore.
The most important part is, that everyone in the raid had fun during those tries. There was a lot of nice social chatter inbetweeen very focussed tries. And this really was worth the 20g in repaircosts to me.
I can imagine, that this eencounter can be very nasty, if peoplee start moaning and accusing each other of being the one causing the wipe.
I am looking very forward to master this encounter.
Yours
Savvrukk
MC's boss design is to one-dimensional, you can negate all penalties with gear and in BWL you can not. No matter how hard some try to convice you that BWL is worth it, it is not. Especiallly with BC right around the corner. Even if a guild makes quick progress, the BC release will set in way before you can seriosly farm there, with half the people needed. It's simple not worth it anymore, period. Why upsetting 40 people, you soon never see in a raid again. As a priest you have the luxury to not need to socialize with the rest of the guild, to not get booted, when BC hits. You're really lucky.
Let's be honest all 40ish guilds will trim their fat soon, it doesn't matter how good the Razor wipes bonded them together, they will separate. The sooner guilds accept this, the cheaper the repairbills will be and the more relaxed the members will be. There is a reason Blizzard announced the smaller raids way before the release, so guilds can prepare for it and not running towards ancient targets.
Let's be honest all 40ish guilds will trim their fat soon, it doesn't matter how good the Razor wipes bonded them together, they will separate. The sooner guilds accept this, the cheaper the repairbills will be and the more relaxed the members will be. There is a reason Blizzard announced the smaller raids way before the release, so guilds can prepare for it and not running towards ancient targets.
I myself i'm relatively new with Raiding, but my Raid Group has alot of experiences (mostly all have nearly full T1 set). We do Full MC in less than 4 hours (without TS, i need to mention)
A few weeks ago we tried the first time BWL, and we needed also several tries with Phase 1, to destroy all Eggs.
We did come close to 4 eggs, and finally it worked, and then we came into Phase 2 with 10 people left, tried again ,25 people left, third time ,we got it.
It's challanging ,but that is much more interesting as having smooth runes. The Happyness was big ,once we managed the first Encounter.
A little how we did the Phase 1:
One Warrior on each side, running around and kite the Dragons, while 2 paladins heal him. The warrior jumps from the higher part, to gain distance. Pala's give Freedom to him, for not let him slow down.
The rest of the Raid tries to decimate the enemies (except dragons) which shouldn't reach the higher grounds.
There is a video, which shows that technic...
http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=1040056038043538656&q=Razorgore
Don't give up easily.
I don't agree that it's worthless to do BWL. Even BC is soon out, the Experience will last.
A few weeks ago we tried the first time BWL, and we needed also several tries with Phase 1, to destroy all Eggs.
We did come close to 4 eggs, and finally it worked, and then we came into Phase 2 with 10 people left, tried again ,25 people left, third time ,we got it.
It's challanging ,but that is much more interesting as having smooth runes. The Happyness was big ,once we managed the first Encounter.
A little how we did the Phase 1:
One Warrior on each side, running around and kite the Dragons, while 2 paladins heal him. The warrior jumps from the higher part, to gain distance. Pala's give Freedom to him, for not let him slow down.
The rest of the Raid tries to decimate the enemies (except dragons) which shouldn't reach the higher grounds.
There is a video, which shows that technic...
http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=1040056038043538656&q=Razorgore
Don't give up easily.
I don't agree that it's worthless to do BWL. Even BC is soon out, the Experience will last.
The raid I participate did not enter Naxxramas until we killed C'Thun. It was hard work with 3 or 4 weeks of wiping at the big eye. But in the end the effort was rewarded and we entered Naxxramas. On the first evening Anub Reckam and Instrukteur Razuvious were killed. After that the Grandwidow and the big spider were killed the very first day when we tried them (although Maexana was quite challenging and we needed ~14 tries and _a lot_ of luck ^^).
The experience we gained in those weeks wiping (and equiping ^^) in AQ40 is extremly valuable for the new encounter. Razorgore is more a skillcheck than a gearcheck. If you can control the crowd and focus your fire where nescessary you will be successful. And it is worth it :)
The experience we gained in those weeks wiping (and equiping ^^) in AQ40 is extremly valuable for the new encounter. Razorgore is more a skillcheck than a gearcheck. If you can control the crowd and focus your fire where nescessary you will be successful. And it is worth it :)
Interesting that you mentioned the priest peer pressure - it is a common occurence - but I wanted to comment on something else instead.
I have heard it mentioned wiping is the difference between hardcore raiders and others. (I have to point out I am not a "hardcore raider".)
Some players simply may not have the time to wipe for hours. If you are wiping you are mounting up repair, reagent and consumable costs, so you may not have time to farm to pay for the costs. And then there is the desire, do you have the desire to keep hitting the wall against a boss?
I remember when my guild first faced BWL. While I had no problem with the wipes, etc. I did have a problem with our raid attendance dwindling. Yet, when MC was on the schedule we had a waiting list! People would come late, leave early (my schedule had me in the latter group) for BWL, but for MC we'd have people sitting characters outside of the instance. Some players for whatever reason, just didn't like working through the pains of learning an encounter. As a result, it took us a longer time than probably necessary to get through Nefarian, and I just about wanted to quit raiding for good as a result (priest burnout).
Now BWL is on farm status for us, and w e are having the same problem with Naxxramas. Tons of people sign up for BWL, not so much for Naxx.
It is also no suprise the same people eager to leave MC behind for good are the ones who want to raid Naxx.
It is the cycle of raid progression I guess.
I have heard it mentioned wiping is the difference between hardcore raiders and others. (I have to point out I am not a "hardcore raider".)
Some players simply may not have the time to wipe for hours. If you are wiping you are mounting up repair, reagent and consumable costs, so you may not have time to farm to pay for the costs. And then there is the desire, do you have the desire to keep hitting the wall against a boss?
I remember when my guild first faced BWL. While I had no problem with the wipes, etc. I did have a problem with our raid attendance dwindling. Yet, when MC was on the schedule we had a waiting list! People would come late, leave early (my schedule had me in the latter group) for BWL, but for MC we'd have people sitting characters outside of the instance. Some players for whatever reason, just didn't like working through the pains of learning an encounter. As a result, it took us a longer time than probably necessary to get through Nefarian, and I just about wanted to quit raiding for good as a result (priest burnout).
Now BWL is on farm status for us, and w e are having the same problem with Naxxramas. Tons of people sign up for BWL, not so much for Naxx.
It is also no suprise the same people eager to leave MC behind for good are the ones who want to raid Naxx.
It is the cycle of raid progression I guess.
Wiping can be demoralizing when it repeatedly happens and not much progress is made. I find that BWL is a better designed and more interesting dungeon. Less trash and boss fights require more varied tactics. It can really be a strain on a guild to try overcome such challenges. However, when you do it for the first time it is one of the greatest feelings.
Just a hint, as the Razorgore fight needs a lot of group coordination:
We split up out 4 corner groups (10 men in each corner) on our TS as well, so that those 10 standing next to each other could communicate much better of how to handle their specific corner situation. Helped a lot!
neXter
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We split up out 4 corner groups (10 men in each corner) on our TS as well, so that those 10 standing next to each other could communicate much better of how to handle their specific corner situation. Helped a lot!
neXter
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