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Wednesday, October 04, 2006
Why does Horde always lose in Alterac Valley?
Unusually for me, I've been doing a lot of PvP lately, taking my level 60 troll warrior to Alterac Valley again and again, at least a dozen times. The reason I'm doing it is farming Frostwolf reputation, where I am now just 3,000 reputation points away from revered. The revered Frostwolf reputation rewards are already better than the gear I'm currently wearing, and if I continue to exalted, I might finally get hold of some epics with my warrior too (who due to there being too many warriors is excluded from raiding). How much reputation you gain from a battle in Alterac Valley doesn't depend much on whether your side wins or loses. But I couldn't help noticing that from over a dozen AV trips, Horde only won 2. Why does Horde lose so much in Alterac Valley?
I really have no idea why the win/lose ratio isn't closer to 50:50. I didn't confirm it, but I was told that Horde is winning at least half of the battles in Warsong Gulch and Arathi Basin. It is only the Alterac Valley battleground where they fare so badly.
One possible explanation is geography, the battleground not being totally symmetrical, and the natural pathways somehow giving the Alliance an advantage. For example whenever the Alliance takes Iceblood graveyard, it is very hard for Horde players to get from the south to the north, as the defenders of the graveyard can easily prevent the Horde players from passing. The equivalent Stonehearth graveyard is a bit farther away from the choke point of the Alliance, and it is easier to break through. I just don't know if that is advantage enough to explain why Alliance wins so often.
Another often cited explanation is paladins, which are still exclusive to the Alliance. There are a *lot* of paladins in Alterac Valley, much more than one eighth of the Alliance forces. It takes the Horde a lot more effort to kill a paladin than the Alliance excerts in effort to kill a shaman. As a warrior for the Horde it is often my job to rush through the enemy lines, thereby pushing them back. But a paladin is doing a much better job in that, because while I get stun-locked after a few meters and die, the paladin just uses his bubble and gets much farther behind the enemy lines, forcing at least a part of the enemy players to follow him, breaking up the front line. No wonder the pallys are so outraged about the possibility of a priest spells dispelling their bubble. On the other battlefields, where there are less players, and not the big frontlines evolving typically in AV, the paladins have less of an advantage. And in places where fast movement is of essence, the shaman with his ghost wolf form is probably superior to the paladin.
A third possible explanation could be that the Alliance players on average are better equipped than the Horde players, on PvE servers, due to being more numerous. It is certainly true that there are more Alliance players having full epic gear than there are Horde players, just because there are more Alliance players in total, and they have it easier to get raid groups together due to being more numerous. But it isn't clear whether the percentage of players in epic gear on a battlefield is higher on the Alliance side than on the Horde side. Are the players in AV mostly bored raiders showing off their epic toys? Or are these characters like my warrior, who are in AV because the reputation rewards are better than the gear they wear?
Or maybe one of you has another explanation of why Alliance wins more than half of the AV battles. Did you observe the same on your server, or is AV more balanced where you are playing it? I don't believe that there is a fundamental difference between the abilities of the players of each side, so no "Horde players suck" comments please!
- posted by Tobold @ 8:41 AM Permanent Link
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Hard to say since I'm only two matches in so far, but I notice the place has an awful lot of 'pseudo-PvE' event triggers that can be activated - cavalry charges, NPC reinforcments, some stonking-big Ice Monster/Storm Creature that can be unleashed, and so on.
Are these typically used much by one side more than the other? Or does everyone always just race toward the middle and start busting heads?
I still don't know why we lost both matches...presumably amid the chaos, the Alliance managed to kill our general or something.
As a warrior though, that seems familiar, and general, I expect not to last much past pressing the Charge button - I just hope the time it takes for them to take me down lets our lot make some kind of progress!
Are these typically used much by one side more than the other? Or does everyone always just race toward the middle and start busting heads?
I still don't know why we lost both matches...presumably amid the chaos, the Alliance managed to kill our general or something.
As a warrior though, that seems familiar, and general, I expect not to last much past pressing the Charge button - I just hope the time it takes for them to take me down lets our lot make some kind of progress!
# posted by 
: 4/10/06 11:03
: 4/10/06 11:03
The problem with the Horde is that most people are there to farm rep, no offence to you. Alliance as you say are epic equiped already so farming is not that important for them and due to them raiding more than Horde they tend to follow orders better than Horde players. Have a look next time you play and you will see that the allies mostly run together as a group when they do this new 'rush' tactic. Horde however runs in little groups and gets slaughtered on the way by first the archers on the towers that you have to pass (you can sometimes see about 4 allies here picking on our wounded Hordies, I will get back to this again). Then you either have to run left after this tower(past the harpies) or stay on the road but get wtfpwend by the charging dudes that patrol the road. Now as a big group Horde charges through here without a problem which is great but unfortunatelly there are always some guys messing about in the middle so they struggle to eventually go support up North due to this tower taking out players and the few Allies sniping the wounded as I mentioned earlier. This tower is especially harsh on clothies I might add and you really see the arrows ripping your HP to shreds so when you get past here you are basically a target for anyone and most classes can 1 or 2 shot you to death now.
Horde also has a nice sniping spot but it's rather difficult to get people to do this. I see it's getting more common on my server now and we are winning a lot lately. As you start everyone starts to charge up North but none goes south to our base where the snipe spot is. FW grayeyard I think it's called (The one just before you enter the Horde base) is a must have for allies to get into our base unless they play exceptionally well. If there are 10 Horde players taking out allies as they get here while 30 charges up North you most certainly will win. These npcs we have here are rather powerfull and with their help you will most certainly weaken the ally forces. As you kill them here they spawn far away from this GY while you spawn really close to the action upon death so you are back in action really quick and just take as many down as you possibly can while protecting the flag as best you can. This slows the allies down and they will need to regroup to take over the next GY while our offence makes progress up North. A simple tactic but one that has resulted in so many wins on my server.
Also as allies enter the Horde base they can avoid all our first npcs by going along the right of the first building, this is a major advantage for allies as Horde can not really avoid npcs. We even have that stupid bridge to cross.
Anyway there are a lot of fun to be had here. As a warlock and priest player I normally position myself here if I see many allies starting to enter the base. Then I fear them into our npcs, the dude that collects the armor scraps and his 2 friends lay down a decent beating and we also have the 2 vendors and 2 guards on the road to fear them into.
Horde also has a nice sniping spot but it's rather difficult to get people to do this. I see it's getting more common on my server now and we are winning a lot lately. As you start everyone starts to charge up North but none goes south to our base where the snipe spot is. FW grayeyard I think it's called (The one just before you enter the Horde base) is a must have for allies to get into our base unless they play exceptionally well. If there are 10 Horde players taking out allies as they get here while 30 charges up North you most certainly will win. These npcs we have here are rather powerfull and with their help you will most certainly weaken the ally forces. As you kill them here they spawn far away from this GY while you spawn really close to the action upon death so you are back in action really quick and just take as many down as you possibly can while protecting the flag as best you can. This slows the allies down and they will need to regroup to take over the next GY while our offence makes progress up North. A simple tactic but one that has resulted in so many wins on my server.
Also as allies enter the Horde base they can avoid all our first npcs by going along the right of the first building, this is a major advantage for allies as Horde can not really avoid npcs. We even have that stupid bridge to cross.
Anyway there are a lot of fun to be had here. As a warlock and priest player I normally position myself here if I see many allies starting to enter the base. Then I fear them into our npcs, the dude that collects the armor scraps and his 2 friends lay down a decent beating and we also have the 2 vendors and 2 guards on the road to fear them into.
# posted by : 4/10/06 11:38
: 4/10/06 11:38
I spent a good bit of time in AV, and a good bit of time playing a paladin. So let me pontificate a bit.
I've done AV more than any other BG. I liked the old version more than the new and honestly, I may be wrong on this but I've found that as much as Alliance wins AV, horde wins WSG. Problem is perception. I always seem to be in the WSG's that the alliance all stands around in the middle of the field and hopes that the 1 guy (usually somebody not really suited to run the flag) can escape the horde base. I can't count the number of times I'm yelling at my screen in WSG talking about how dumb my team is. I know, not helpful but cathartic at least.
As for paladins, I asked for Blessing of Spell warding back in the revamp. I was one of the few who did. I hate the divine shield crap. I think it's uses are ok, but overall it's just one more thing for PvP folks to complain about and honestly I seldom use it in comparison to Blessing of Protection (or "Blessing of Not having my Clothies Die" as I like to think of it) Honestly, I like the idea behind a heavy defensive/support class but honestly I find that paladins are marginal in the raiding game. Their mainstay is the buffs which are nice but aren't the end all be all. I'd wager that if they didn't exist (say like on the horde side) folks would still get stuff done (say like on the horde side). They heal so their thrown in the back, making wearing plate relatively useless, they do sub-otimal dps, and nobody lets them tank because "well that's a warriors job to tank and if they're not doing that then they can do some really good dps. So Warrior doing 2 jobs good = ok. Paladin doing 2 jobs =/= ok. I for one am glad the horde are getting paladins. I think it's going to be a real wake up call that they're not really the gods of anything and that while they're passable at quite a few things they're not really unkillable or (honestly) a end all be all.
That being said, I will concede that they are REALLY good at defending the flag in AB.
I've done AV more than any other BG. I liked the old version more than the new and honestly, I may be wrong on this but I've found that as much as Alliance wins AV, horde wins WSG. Problem is perception. I always seem to be in the WSG's that the alliance all stands around in the middle of the field and hopes that the 1 guy (usually somebody not really suited to run the flag) can escape the horde base. I can't count the number of times I'm yelling at my screen in WSG talking about how dumb my team is. I know, not helpful but cathartic at least.
As for paladins, I asked for Blessing of Spell warding back in the revamp. I was one of the few who did. I hate the divine shield crap. I think it's uses are ok, but overall it's just one more thing for PvP folks to complain about and honestly I seldom use it in comparison to Blessing of Protection (or "Blessing of Not having my Clothies Die" as I like to think of it) Honestly, I like the idea behind a heavy defensive/support class but honestly I find that paladins are marginal in the raiding game. Their mainstay is the buffs which are nice but aren't the end all be all. I'd wager that if they didn't exist (say like on the horde side) folks would still get stuff done (say like on the horde side). They heal so their thrown in the back, making wearing plate relatively useless, they do sub-otimal dps, and nobody lets them tank because "well that's a warriors job to tank and if they're not doing that then they can do some really good dps. So Warrior doing 2 jobs good = ok. Paladin doing 2 jobs =/= ok. I for one am glad the horde are getting paladins. I think it's going to be a real wake up call that they're not really the gods of anything and that while they're passable at quite a few things they're not really unkillable or (honestly) a end all be all.
That being said, I will concede that they are REALLY good at defending the flag in AB.
Just wondering, but has anyone ever noticed how PVP tactics and group composition changes so much between summer and winter? Usually (not always)the tactics are very rushed and not well thought out during the summer, when the overwhelming majority of players are those that are still in school. It is even harder to find groups during the summer because of the amount of our "unlimited play time" younger counterparts...just an observation.
# posted by : 4/10/06 15:08
: 4/10/06 15:08
The bridge in front of the alliance main base really does help in the defense. It allows both archer towers to focus on a narrow open spot that the horde are forced to cross. Throw a couple fearing classes and paladins onto the bridge and it can be held for a long time.
About the only advantage the horde have is that the alliance aid station is a bit closer to the front of the base. This make the downfall of the alliance base quick as soon as they can get passed that bridge.
About the only advantage the horde have is that the alliance aid station is a bit closer to the front of the base. This make the downfall of the alliance base quick as soon as they can get passed that bridge.
A huge part of it is the geography. Horde have a narrow road between SH and SP, and even if you include the high and low roads, those are also narrow and easily defended. While FW is in the middle of a field. Then there is the bridge! I hate that thing. But you can jump over a fence and land in the horde's base. Also, horde can't run around the npcs like alliance can. Most horde npc patrols aren't even close to where the alliance go, but we are pretty much forced to run into and fight their patrolling npcs.
Gear might be part of it, I get 1 and 2 shotted all the time, and I notice most often when we win it's with an awesome tank with a thunderfury. In those matches, i just follow him and heal as he decimates everything in sight.
Of course, there is the teamwork factor. Teamwork is even more important in AV due the the terrain, as the pve goals you have to complete. Just like there are more difficult tactics in AB than WSG. Unlike other bgs, in AV horde can't use teamwork at all.
Cross server BGs have only made this worse, as the screaming swearing children that inhabit PvP servers refuse to work together with the rest of us, instead wanting to farm HKs and fight on roads instead of by flags, kill Bal, and all sorts of time sinks that don't help us win. If you could see horde chat in AV, you'd be disgusted.
This started becoming a problem for us even before xserver, when server transfers started. Before transfers, we had finally begun to win 30% of the matches, due to working together. But once transfers started, all these kids starting screaming in raid chat about what to do, saying they were from a pvp server and therefore better than us. The result was we started losing again. So at this point, I'm pretty convinced the PVP servers are dragging us down. They might know how to pvp 1on1, and might win WSG, but they don't have the skills, i.e. teamwork, to win AV.
Gear might be part of it, I get 1 and 2 shotted all the time, and I notice most often when we win it's with an awesome tank with a thunderfury. In those matches, i just follow him and heal as he decimates everything in sight.
Of course, there is the teamwork factor. Teamwork is even more important in AV due the the terrain, as the pve goals you have to complete. Just like there are more difficult tactics in AB than WSG. Unlike other bgs, in AV horde can't use teamwork at all.
Cross server BGs have only made this worse, as the screaming swearing children that inhabit PvP servers refuse to work together with the rest of us, instead wanting to farm HKs and fight on roads instead of by flags, kill Bal, and all sorts of time sinks that don't help us win. If you could see horde chat in AV, you'd be disgusted.
This started becoming a problem for us even before xserver, when server transfers started. Before transfers, we had finally begun to win 30% of the matches, due to working together. But once transfers started, all these kids starting screaming in raid chat about what to do, saying they were from a pvp server and therefore better than us. The result was we started losing again. So at this point, I'm pretty convinced the PVP servers are dragging us down. They might know how to pvp 1on1, and might win WSG, but they don't have the skills, i.e. teamwork, to win AV.
# posted by : 4/10/06 16:11
: 4/10/06 16:11
I've noticed a similar effect. Of my last ten AV, Horde were only close to winning once. AB wins seem to be about 30% Ally and WSG is more like 10%.
I really don't get it...
I really don't get it...
Tobold, keep on playing -- AV rep is easy to get, as you've found out already. Once you hit exalted, make sure to get the final 999/1000 rep, and then get the final trinket upgrade (epic, Rank 6).
On my PvP server, Horde used to win 90% of AV games. When they opened it up to cross-realms PvP servers, it evened out to 50-50. But there are definite "streaks" as a group of good players from one side repeatedly requeue and get into subsequent games together.
Strategies seem to evolve in our x-realm group. For a while, Alliance figured out that rushing was the way to win because of geography constraints. Then Horde figured out that some defense at Galv would slow down Alliance enough to tip the scales in their favor. Then Alliance began skipping Galv to go straight to IB graveyard. Etc...
AV is a rich and complex game. And a fun use of the equipment you've earned in PvE, along with an easy way to get some upgrades.
On my PvP server, Horde used to win 90% of AV games. When they opened it up to cross-realms PvP servers, it evened out to 50-50. But there are definite "streaks" as a group of good players from one side repeatedly requeue and get into subsequent games together.
Strategies seem to evolve in our x-realm group. For a while, Alliance figured out that rushing was the way to win because of geography constraints. Then Horde figured out that some defense at Galv would slow down Alliance enough to tip the scales in their favor. Then Alliance began skipping Galv to go straight to IB graveyard. Etc...
AV is a rich and complex game. And a fun use of the equipment you've earned in PvE, along with an easy way to get some upgrades.
James has the right of it. The sides are deliberately skewed, so alliance has stronger defence and horde has stronger offence.
Because of this certain tactics (the alliance rush) have evolved. If both alliance and horde ignore each other and rush to the general, all else being equal, alliance will win. If Horde slow and break the alliance zerg by recapping SF, IB and FW, then bottle up the defenders in their village and summon the uber units, horde will generally win.
I don't believe there's any real difference between horde and alliance psychology, en masse - maybe the alliance gearing is a little better but the broad spread of servers in X Server suggests that should even itself out.
The strength of the alliance is the initial zerg. If you can kill that (by recapping GYs behind it) then they won't be able to overwhelm you and you can get the momentum back.
Don't be afraid to take SF (breaking up the zerg) and don't listen to the people who start shouting 'lose! lose' in /bg. It may be more honour, but man it's depressing losing again and again.
Because of this certain tactics (the alliance rush) have evolved. If both alliance and horde ignore each other and rush to the general, all else being equal, alliance will win. If Horde slow and break the alliance zerg by recapping SF, IB and FW, then bottle up the defenders in their village and summon the uber units, horde will generally win.
I don't believe there's any real difference between horde and alliance psychology, en masse - maybe the alliance gearing is a little better but the broad spread of servers in X Server suggests that should even itself out.
The strength of the alliance is the initial zerg. If you can kill that (by recapping GYs behind it) then they won't be able to overwhelm you and you can get the momentum back.
Don't be afraid to take SF (breaking up the zerg) and don't listen to the people who start shouting 'lose! lose' in /bg. It may be more honour, but man it's depressing losing again and again.
# posted by : 4/10/06 22:39
: 4/10/06 22:39
I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that horde BG queues are so short. On my server most geared players and rank grinders avoid it all-together. Why single queue for a potential time-wasting AV when you can roll alliance PUGs all-day in AB/WSG?
I don't buy the terrain-bias argument because it works both ways. And the Paladin "advantage" doesn't really work for me because buffs are infrequent at best and their high durability is pretty much balanced by their relatively low dps.
Some tips for slowing the alliance zerg;
Have 10-15 stand on the hill leading up to IB Garrison. If they take the hint and shift to IBGY, D IBGY until SH caps.
Snowfall GY. As soon as SH is assaulted, send about 5 from offense to retake SF and guard it. When alliance die, they rez at their base.
Oh, and don't forget about your flight masters and turn-ins.
I don't buy the terrain-bias argument because it works both ways. And the Paladin "advantage" doesn't really work for me because buffs are infrequent at best and their high durability is pretty much balanced by their relatively low dps.
Some tips for slowing the alliance zerg;
Have 10-15 stand on the hill leading up to IB Garrison. If they take the hint and shift to IBGY, D IBGY until SH caps.
Snowfall GY. As soon as SH is assaulted, send about 5 from offense to retake SF and guard it. When alliance die, they rez at their base.
Oh, and don't forget about your flight masters and turn-ins.
# posted by : 4/10/06 23:48
: 4/10/06 23:48
If I had to make a definitive statement over the geography, the key difference lies with Stormpike versus Frostwolf because these are the "must get" gy's before assaulting any base.
Stormpike funnels the attackers which makes an area of effect D much more viable whereas the spacing provided near Frostwolf means that AoE is much less viable leading to numbers being a much more significant variable.
Before the weakening of NPC's, the Horde base had it's own little gauntlet to run once you got near the towers but now, the Alliance can practically park there and ride out any NPC damage while trying to get inside the towers to blow them up.
Which leads directly to base lay out. A fear bomb when attacking the Aid Station often leads to an interaction with the stables NPC's, or Blacksmith. These additions to an already "iffy" assault often dooms a possible flag cap, whereas on the Horde side, all those NPC's are already bypassed by the time the Relief Station comes into the picture.
So currently, yes I would say the geography has a slight bias towards the Alliance side.
Now as to the Alliance winning more, before xserver, I'd have said Horde dominated PvP on my server, including AV. Generally I had put my experience with this down to 3 factors.
1. Less Horde than Alliance. This was important because it meant access to PvP (especially AV) wasn't as limited meaning less people were using the rare opportunity to complete the varied side quests.
2. Being Australian on a US West Coast server. Laugh if you want but the time of night I played equated to off-peak for the majority of players. Again this wittled the PvP population to an extent where after a while you grew to know your other Horde players very well. This sort of knowledge helps cohesion on any battlefield and so you could base actions upon knowledge of outcomes. Many times in AV, I knew the 10 people who were base D with me very well and so we'd be grouped into 7 + 8 which brought into play the shaman group buffs.
3. Time. Less population (at my time) meant much less opportunities to raid which made PvP a viable alternative. No significant queues made it more attractive. On the flip side, you had an Alliance that found queueing discouraging and so would Raid for character development.
Raid gear generally is better than accessible PvP gear so what we have now thanks to xserver is better geared Alliance entering into PvP during non-raid times thus increasing their relative strength in an arena like AV. This is less valid in something like WSG where tight knit teamwork will generally win and AB is a 70/30 teamwork/gear decider. Even before xserver, two Alliance characters transferred to our server both tier 2, a fury specced warrior and a priest, and they dominated WSG whenever we encountered them. Neither were flag carriers but their ability to protect the carry was kind of scary.
In summation, I think Alliance will come to dominate AV and gradually the battlegrounds in a PUG situation more and more until the advent of TBC where the Raid dominance will be somewhat nullified by the new gear. Cohesion was the true Horde strength I think, and xserver has kind of destroyed that.
-illaraphaniel
Stormpike funnels the attackers which makes an area of effect D much more viable whereas the spacing provided near Frostwolf means that AoE is much less viable leading to numbers being a much more significant variable.
Before the weakening of NPC's, the Horde base had it's own little gauntlet to run once you got near the towers but now, the Alliance can practically park there and ride out any NPC damage while trying to get inside the towers to blow them up.
Which leads directly to base lay out. A fear bomb when attacking the Aid Station often leads to an interaction with the stables NPC's, or Blacksmith. These additions to an already "iffy" assault often dooms a possible flag cap, whereas on the Horde side, all those NPC's are already bypassed by the time the Relief Station comes into the picture.
So currently, yes I would say the geography has a slight bias towards the Alliance side.
Now as to the Alliance winning more, before xserver, I'd have said Horde dominated PvP on my server, including AV. Generally I had put my experience with this down to 3 factors.
1. Less Horde than Alliance. This was important because it meant access to PvP (especially AV) wasn't as limited meaning less people were using the rare opportunity to complete the varied side quests.
2. Being Australian on a US West Coast server. Laugh if you want but the time of night I played equated to off-peak for the majority of players. Again this wittled the PvP population to an extent where after a while you grew to know your other Horde players very well. This sort of knowledge helps cohesion on any battlefield and so you could base actions upon knowledge of outcomes. Many times in AV, I knew the 10 people who were base D with me very well and so we'd be grouped into 7 + 8 which brought into play the shaman group buffs.
3. Time. Less population (at my time) meant much less opportunities to raid which made PvP a viable alternative. No significant queues made it more attractive. On the flip side, you had an Alliance that found queueing discouraging and so would Raid for character development.
Raid gear generally is better than accessible PvP gear so what we have now thanks to xserver is better geared Alliance entering into PvP during non-raid times thus increasing their relative strength in an arena like AV. This is less valid in something like WSG where tight knit teamwork will generally win and AB is a 70/30 teamwork/gear decider. Even before xserver, two Alliance characters transferred to our server both tier 2, a fury specced warrior and a priest, and they dominated WSG whenever we encountered them. Neither were flag carriers but their ability to protect the carry was kind of scary.
In summation, I think Alliance will come to dominate AV and gradually the battlegrounds in a PUG situation more and more until the advent of TBC where the Raid dominance will be somewhat nullified by the new gear. Cohesion was the true Horde strength I think, and xserver has kind of destroyed that.
-illaraphaniel
# posted by : 5/10/06 05:17
: 5/10/06 05:17
Last night Horde lost every game I entered. 6 for 6. We only captured the Stormpike Graveyard once. In six games. We never held the Aid Station. We touched it once. Alliance groups, GROUPS, were seemingly everywhere, capturing everything, defending everything.
Recalling to Frostwolf to defend is suicide. Yeah, Horde seem to be like cats, running around everywhere. Horde blips cover the entire map, and the entire map is blue and gray.
Terrain's got to figure into the advantages, but a disorganized Offense is far less capable than a disorganized Defence.
A disorganized Defence knows enough to hold a flag, a stationary point. And if the Alliance's strength is Defense, as already mentioned, that's two points in their favor.
A disorganized Offense is everywhere and yet nowhere they need to be. If Horde did have an offensive advantage it's lost by lack of discipline and coordination.
And I too have noticed a solid defence of Galv tends to help. It can. But last night there were only two attempts to defend him, we had like five there, w/e, and the Alliance just zerged through with their entire army it seemed.
In a race, Alliance win. In a fight, Horde can win.
(I am very glad I have a 51 Night Elf Hunter waiting his turn when my Orc Warrior reaches Rank 7 and Exalted with FW.)
P.s. The events are fun. When you've got Lok summoned, and you're running him up to Stormpike... Good times. But, one match last night, it's only like 45 minutes into the game or so, the Horde had nothing captured, Ivus the Forest Lord was outside Frostwolf Graveyard and I saw a band of Alliance running to the tunnel entrance. Losing was bad enough, which we did shortly, but being spanked outside the tunnel by a gang of campers was going to be just too insulting for words.
Recalling to Frostwolf to defend is suicide. Yeah, Horde seem to be like cats, running around everywhere. Horde blips cover the entire map, and the entire map is blue and gray.
Terrain's got to figure into the advantages, but a disorganized Offense is far less capable than a disorganized Defence.
A disorganized Defence knows enough to hold a flag, a stationary point. And if the Alliance's strength is Defense, as already mentioned, that's two points in their favor.
A disorganized Offense is everywhere and yet nowhere they need to be. If Horde did have an offensive advantage it's lost by lack of discipline and coordination.
And I too have noticed a solid defence of Galv tends to help. It can. But last night there were only two attempts to defend him, we had like five there, w/e, and the Alliance just zerged through with their entire army it seemed.
In a race, Alliance win. In a fight, Horde can win.
(I am very glad I have a 51 Night Elf Hunter waiting his turn when my Orc Warrior reaches Rank 7 and Exalted with FW.)
P.s. The events are fun. When you've got Lok summoned, and you're running him up to Stormpike... Good times. But, one match last night, it's only like 45 minutes into the game or so, the Horde had nothing captured, Ivus the Forest Lord was outside Frostwolf Graveyard and I saw a band of Alliance running to the tunnel entrance. Losing was bad enough, which we did shortly, but being spanked outside the tunnel by a gang of campers was going to be just too insulting for words.
I think horde can get more honor faster winning the 5-15 minute ABs and WSGs. The queues are faster for them also.
Sounds like a matter of do you want 9 WSG/AB tokens or 3 AV tokes in the same amount of time played?
Sounds like a matter of do you want 9 WSG/AB tokens or 3 AV tokes in the same amount of time played?
Alliance win because two players can make it to the horde aid station without fighting any guards except those guarding the gy. By entering the horde base and staying right you avoid the lower level npc's. Before you enter the tower and run up the ramp, you can stay left and run outside the wall, all the way around the towers and npcs right into the horde aid station. One trains the guards, the other caps. You now eliminate horde from respawning with their own base, bring more allies in to you the same way and now the horde players end up trying to claim both the alliance AND horde aid stations.
# posted by : 7/10/06 22:13
: 7/10/06 22:13
I heard this comment a lot over the AV weekend a week back. I didn't understand it. I play Horde.
First of all, faction flew in. I went from newbie to 9k into revered in about 5 hours.
Saturday: Won 10/12 AV. Most lasted under 20 min. The one we lost lasted 40 or so. Several ended in around 10 minutes.
Sunday: Won 9/12 AV. As the day wore on, these got longer. Won most of these in a string, with the losses all in a row. There was one I entered, where Horde already was killing Van. I ran down there just in time to see him fall. Was a nice 5 min run =)
Monday: Won 2/5 AV. These were horrible, and very slow. One I entered had been running for 1:45 already, and took a further 60 minutes to finish. We lost. At this point, I was really just doing them to finish Revered. I didn't even want anything at Revered, but wanted to be done with it.
I guess I'd say, YMMV
First of all, faction flew in. I went from newbie to 9k into revered in about 5 hours.
Saturday: Won 10/12 AV. Most lasted under 20 min. The one we lost lasted 40 or so. Several ended in around 10 minutes.
Sunday: Won 9/12 AV. As the day wore on, these got longer. Won most of these in a string, with the losses all in a row. There was one I entered, where Horde already was killing Van. I ran down there just in time to see him fall. Was a nice 5 min run =)
Monday: Won 2/5 AV. These were horrible, and very slow. One I entered had been running for 1:45 already, and took a further 60 minutes to finish. We lost. At this point, I was really just doing them to finish Revered. I didn't even want anything at Revered, but wanted to be done with it.
I guess I'd say, YMMV
# posted by : 10/10/06 17:25
: 10/10/06 17:25
Interesting comments.
I play Horde on Battlegroup 6.
From a purely strategic POV, in AV defensive terrain advantage goes to Alliance.
Most PUGs don't coordinate very well on BG 6, so Horde loses probably 75% of the time.
Why?
Simple.
Since Horde doesn't have defensive terrain as an advantage, Horde must either quickly break the Alliance defense -- against the odds, though I once saw the Horde win in 22 min -- or Horde must to stack up, play defense, and get help by summoning Lok. Then Horde can use Lok to crush the Alliance D at Stormpike Graveyard and take the Aid Station, and finally park Lok on the bridge (and terrain becomes your friend).
I've seen two typical scenarios on BG 6:
1) Both sides rush on O, Alliance breaks through, Horde O stalls -- Alliance win in about 25-30 minutes
2) Horde plays good D, Alliance O stalls, Horde summons Lok or finally breaks the Alliance D over time, Horde wins in 45 min - 75 min.
Another simple solution: Mirror the map 50% of the time, so that Horde and Alliance positions are flipped half the time.
---
And FYI --
Horde basically owns the BG 6 WSG and AB in the 30-59 brackets; probably 90% win rate.
I actually was an eyewitness to a Horde win in AB, 15 Horde on 7 Alliance, in which the Horde not only 5-capped and camped the Alliance graveyard, but the Alliance didn't get a single HK. Zero.
I play Horde on Battlegroup 6.
From a purely strategic POV, in AV defensive terrain advantage goes to Alliance.
Most PUGs don't coordinate very well on BG 6, so Horde loses probably 75% of the time.
Why?
Simple.
Since Horde doesn't have defensive terrain as an advantage, Horde must either quickly break the Alliance defense -- against the odds, though I once saw the Horde win in 22 min -- or Horde must to stack up, play defense, and get help by summoning Lok. Then Horde can use Lok to crush the Alliance D at Stormpike Graveyard and take the Aid Station, and finally park Lok on the bridge (and terrain becomes your friend).
I've seen two typical scenarios on BG 6:
1) Both sides rush on O, Alliance breaks through, Horde O stalls -- Alliance win in about 25-30 minutes
2) Horde plays good D, Alliance O stalls, Horde summons Lok or finally breaks the Alliance D over time, Horde wins in 45 min - 75 min.
Another simple solution: Mirror the map 50% of the time, so that Horde and Alliance positions are flipped half the time.
---
And FYI --
Horde basically owns the BG 6 WSG and AB in the 30-59 brackets; probably 90% win rate.
I actually was an eyewitness to a Horde win in AB, 15 Horde on 7 Alliance, in which the Horde not only 5-capped and camped the Alliance graveyard, but the Alliance didn't get a single HK. Zero.
Hello,
Ok the simplest reason why the Horde fails to win AV is........
You have 40 people that can not work together. Alliance for the most part understand that BG's are about teamwork, most of the Horde players dont get this.
If you had 40 people that understood AV, had a plan, and cou;d work together, then Horde wins would go up.
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Ok the simplest reason why the Horde fails to win AV is........
You have 40 people that can not work together. Alliance for the most part understand that BG's are about teamwork, most of the Horde players dont get this.
If you had 40 people that understood AV, had a plan, and cou;d work together, then Horde wins would go up.
# posted by : 21/9/07 22:58
: 21/9/07 22:58<< Home
