Tobold's Blog
Wednesday, November 01, 2006
 
The new World of Warcraft honor system

As apparently we will get the new honor system patched in before the expansion, I'm not calling it the Burning Crusade honor system. But of course all the information I have on how about it works is from the BC beta. As you all know, the old honor system, where you were assigned a rank based on your *relative* performance compared to the other players on your server and your faction is going out the window. And the new system will give PvP rewards based on absolute points. The big advantage in that is that lets say winning 50 battlegrounds and doing 1000 honor kills in the new system will always be worth the same, regardless how much the other players played, and regardless of whether you did those battles over 1 week or over 1 month. So how do the rewards work?

What I did was visit the PvP reward NPCs, both in the Hall of Legends in Orgrimmar, and the one standing in front of Alterac Valley. I couldn't actually do a battleground, because there aren't enough players on the beta servers to fill one up. But I was able to see the rewards, and what they cost.

The big disappointment was the Alterac Valley PvP reward NPC. He was offering exactly the same rewards as before, with no "level 70" items added (yet?). That makes the best items available from him look decidedly mediocre compared to green and blue items you can get in the Outlands even at level 60. The big surprise here is that there are no more reputation requirements. You don't need to be exalted to buy lets say The Unstoppable Force. You just need to "pay" 30000 honor points and 80 Alterac Valley Marks of Honor. Whatever reputation you gained with the Frostwolf is useless now.

In a way that makes sense. You get 1 Mark of Honor from losing, and 3 from winning. So while currently people in AV often go reputation farming, and ignore the win condition, winning AV will become a lot more important. Because all the honor points don't help you if you don't also have the 80 Marks of Honor. Assuming you win half of your battles, you need to finish AV 40 times to pay for the Unstoppable Force.

Next I went to the Hall of Legends in Orgrimmar, which is now open to everybody, not just officers as before, because the officers rank doesn't exist any more. You can still display your highest rank, if you want to, but it doesn't do anything any more. Except, curiously, of still giving you the 10% NPC vendor rebate if you ever made it to rank 3. No idea why they left that in, as I don't see how new players would be able to still gain that bonus.

In the Hall of Legends there are several PvP reward vendors, for armor, weapons, mounts, and accessoires. Here there are a few level 70 items, but up to now I only counted 4 of them, the others are still the same as the PvP rank rewards. For example a Sergeant't Cloak (level 60 version) now costs 1500 honor and 10 Arathi Marks of Honor. General's Satin Leggings cost 4250 honor and 30 Warsong Gulch Mark of Honor. Some items cost "Eye of Storm Mark of Honor", but I didn't see any Eye of Storm battleground.

Most stupidly an epic mount cost 30 AV, 30 WSG, plus 30 AB Mark of Honor. But as it still needs 150 riding skill (which still costs 720 gold), this mount is just for show, you can with the same riding skill training cost buy an equally fast standard epic mount for just 80 gold, instead of paying 90 Mark of Honor for a battleground epic mount.

What I don't really like is that most items here also cost specific Marks of Honor. If you don't like lets say Warsong Gulch, you can't pay for the General's Satin Leggings, because these need WSG Marks of Honor. Only the potions, insignia of the horde, battle standard, and some cut gems to put into sockets can be bought with honor points without Marks.

As long as Blizzard doesn't adjust the PvP rewards to the much higher level of Burning Crusade PvE rewards, I don't see how the changes will induce people to play more PvP. The new system is better than the old reputation farming and rank system, but the rewards need some serious balancing to make PvP as attractive as PvE.
Comments:
The big question all us healers are asking: what happens to the combat mana potions? They are the only thing keeping me from going broke buying major mana pots (or spending all my non raid time farming dreamfoil and icecap).

Do we need honor points to buy those? It is a sufficiently small amount that it is not a big deal to get them?
 
I'm sure they will change that soon enough. Even though you are in Beta, you had commented here that much of Outlands isn't finished yet, so I think it is reasonable to assume that PVP rewards are incomplete as well.
 
i think that the "eye of storm mark of honor" could possibly be from one of the new caverns of time battlegrounds. also i'm greatly looking forward to this new honoru system. as a a player who PvP's every so often its nice to not see a rank slowly lvl down just becuase i'm not constantly PvPing.
 
Wow, that's really disappointing news. Now instead of having to grind BGs just for the BG rewards, you have to grind BGs for EVERYTHING? That's . . . I'm sorry, that's just retarded. Why on earth would they arbitrarily attach BG token requirements to the pvp rank gear? I hate WSG on my cluster -- its always a 10 man premade vs. a 10 man pug, and losing 30 times just to get a single item is not even remotely worth the suffering. The epic mount requirements are just idiotic.

The biggest issue is that unlike the current system once you buy that item you have to start all over again! It also does nothing to encourage world pvp on azeroth as the honor you might gain is worthless without BG tokens.

I really hope they change this before it goes live, because implemented as Tobold described the new system is probably a bigger grind than the old one. Getting exalted with AV is currently far easier than earning the number of AV honor marks a paladin or shaman would require to get a TUF, the epic shield, and an epic offhand.

Although . . . one thought just occured to me. Are these honor marks really the same as currently in the game? Or are they like the marks people earn in outland world pvp, where one pvp kill = one mark?
 
That makes the best items available from him look decidedly mediocre compared to green and blue items you can get in the Outlands even at level 60.

This isn't directly related to the PvP theme of your article, but...

I've seen comments like this from many sources since the Beta started. People saying greens/blues from Outland will be better than current PvE/PvP epics. And that everyone will be upgrading their gear very quickly.

My question is how much has Bliz upped the drop rate on these greens and blues for the Beta? Will we be seeing these things drop like candy (as seems to be the case right now)? Or will they drop at about the same rate as current greens/blues?

As of right now, doing regular quests to level alts, I normally get a green or 2 over the course of a level. Normally, they are of absolutely no use to me (of the boar and of the whale seem very common). As for blues, it is easy to go 5, 10, 15 levels and never see a blue drop unless I go into an instance. Then it's hit or miss as to whether it is useful to me or if I will win the item.

My point is that I wouldn't turn my nose up so quickly at the current gear in the game. I'm sure there will be plenty of upgrades to be found in the Outlands, but I don't think they will be rolling in as quickly as many people think.
 
One smart approach they could do would be to do an "or" type system... for example, one of the PvP reward weapons costs 6000 honor and 15 AVMoH or 25 ABMoH or 30WSGMoH. That way people could play the way they want, get the Marks of Honor they needed, but not be forced to play a BG they don't enjoy.
 
While I like the new way of awarding static points (hated the old system, now you can earn honour at your own pace), I do think the price for the gear you described is a little high, and you're right that some of the requirements for having marks from specific battlegrounds for more generic items like a priest set piece is pretty stupid.

HOWEVER - I don't think you guys should be panicking right now. It's a beta. Things change very quickly in beta. I'm sure the revamped PvP rewards system is still incomplete. You haven't talked about how the arena system is going to work in comparison (at least I haven't seen mention). We don't have any kind of official information about the revamping yet. So making rash judgments now is probably not the smartest move.

Just keep in mind that most of this is likely going to change a lot before it sees the live servers.
 
Would it be possible then to save up 20 of the current marks and still use them for when the patch hits?
 
Do you have any idea if you current rank/reputation will award you with an amount of honor points when the new system is patched in?
 
"Do you have any idea if you current rank/reputation will award you with an amount of honor points when the new system is patched in?"

According to Blizzard there will be no compensation. That means when the changes go live you will lose everything. All rep with BGs and all honor gained. It is a fresh start for everyone and really is the only fair way to do it.
 
Wow, you all need to stop whining. For months all I have heard is that Blizzard needs to change the way the PVP system works; so they change it, and people STILL are whining. "I dont want to do Warsong Gulch" What did you think, Blizzard was just gonna let you run 10 BG's of your choice and then toss out an epic?
 
what happens to the combat mana potions?

Combat mana potions only cost a small amount of honor, I don't remember the exact number, but it was something like 10 honor points.

My question is how much has Bliz upped the drop rate on these greens and blues for the Beta?

I don't think the drop rate has been upped for the beta, because it is pretty much the same as it is in "old WoW". Your main source of greens/blues is 5-man dungeons, where usually 1 blue item drops from each boss (and Outland dungeons seem all to have 3 bosses), plus you're likely to find half a dozen or so greens from cleaning out the place.

You also get green items from some, not all, quests. The chance of a random mob outside a dungeon dropping a green is small.
 
Guess I better finish grinding for my wolf mount now! Only 8k to go....
 
This pretty much means that people close to making the rank they desire will get the shaft, being as the grind to get that rank will get short because of the upgrade in revamp in the honor system. Also, the only reason they are revamping is because it gives the casual player a chance at getting warlord rank equipment without having to out do the power gamers. This isn't a bad idea, but what this does is make warlord gear alot less unique and almost totally worthless, because if everyone has warlord gear then what was the point of getting it?
 
Ok so when does this come out? i thought that it came out with the burning crusade but apparently its now just a patch? i heard that it will come out on Tuesday Nov 21st instead of january? is that true or just bs? ive looked but i havent foun it, havent looked too hard, but still cant fin it. Cause this is gonna suck if it comes out in 2 weeks, ive been working hard for rank 11 so i can finally get an epic mount, and now blizz does this to me? ive only got like 60g, now i get to go on a farming spree! jee thanks, i hope the alliance on my server are compassionate (-.-) Btw..curlee who posted above, are you from daggerspine? Tauren shammy in the deliverance guild...cause this is maydie lol!
 
uh couple typos there, my "d" button doesnt like to work, "But i havent FOUND it, havent loked too hard, but still cant FIND it."
 
Nobody knows the exact date when the honor system changes. Buy Eyonix suggested it would be "before the holidays". Apparently there will be not much advance warning, and whatever honor you gain in the last week will be lost, because changing the system occurs at the same time as honor rank updating.

Cause this is gonna suck if it comes out in 2 weeks, ive been working hard for rank 11 so i can finally get an epic mount, and now blizz does this to me? ive only got like 60g, now i get to go on a farming spree!

You seem to have missed recent changes in the way epic mounts are priced. Riding an epic mount now needs a riding skill of 150, and getting that skill costs 720 gold. Reaching rank 11 means you will be able to buy a "cheap" epic mount for just 8 gold, but you still need to pay the 720 gold for the riding skill, so your 60 gold won't get you anywhere.
 
no i didnt miss them, im not talking about the regular epic mounts, im talking about the pvp epic mounts, those only cost 10g w/o discounts, before they were 100g, but with the new system its 10g, and only 75 riding skill, if they change the honor system they will cost 150 riding skill but no money to buy the pvp epic mount...apparently just some bg tokens
 
I wonder if this will work....
If i go the the honour places now and purchase ALL the rank 14 armour and weapons i need and when the patch comes out all the Armour and weapons i purchased with gld will turn into armour i purchased with points and no Grand Marshal or High Warlord ranking 2 be able to equipt it. If anyone that know and can answer this that would be great because i really want to cheat the system lol =P
 
So i guess my having Exalted in AV means nothing now. What a bunch of bull. I wish the new system took into account all the hardwork we have put into the game.
 
Even if you reach rank 11 you still need 150 riding skill. Also i do belive you can not purchase the gear if you have not attained the rank. I am trying to get gear but i wouldnt worry cause it is all going to change.

Also what if you have the gear and it is for lvl60's and when the pack comes out that gear you are wearing changes to lvl 70 and everything is upgraded. will they take your lvl60 gear away, as you purchased it and no one else can purchase it now?
 
Let say today is the last day of the old honror system and tomorrow is the new patch come out and i am now rank 13 and will be GM/HW tomorrow and i can buy everything in Champion Hall/honor place,but tomorrow will change every thing for pvp honor system,so that's mean i will lost all the hard work i spend and start from zero?well this is not that fair for the rank 13 people.Did Blizzard have any explaination on that issue.
 
The current PVP Mount rewards are actualy riding skill 75 so if your close grind it out! and regarding the statement that the honor gained will be lost the week of the patch (rumors are the 28th of nov so soon!) I make no promises but I notice on my server the pvp updates only a little before the actual servers go down I OFTEN buy my new rewards at 4-5:50am EST before the server drops at 6am EST SO if your unlucky like me and will be pvping till last moment I'd advice staying up late the night before the 28th patch. It might be supersition but I dont think the honor pane updates so you have to keep hitting "H" to check it.. but that might just be me. Hope that helps!
 
When the patch comes out, you will get compensated for your highest lifetime rank. For example, if my highest rank is rank 3, i will get 10,000 honor points (that number is a wild guess), but if my highest lifetime rank is rank 13, i will gain (yet another guess) 200,000 honor points.
So you do get compensated in a way for all your hard work you did a few weeks ago to get that nice rank you always wanted.
 
I believe the intention is to make a quick change to the pvp system so you actually don't have to use all your time to pvp, but can go now and then and get the tokens and get upgrades from it, having fun in pvp is more important than getting upgrades anyway, and the pvp system like it has been was no fun if you wanted to rank. The only ones i feel with is the ones that has already gained a rank but not gotten to the point they wanted yet, but after all we can just start over now and have the fun you want, instead.

Pve items will be worth more than the items you can gain from pvp very soon and then the new battleground is in, so i'd suggest just use the time pretbc to prepare to play in tbc and then get the upgrades you want from pve until you get 70.
 
Someone wrote about wiping of HKs, BG rep and ranks:
"It is a fresh start for everyone and really is the only fair way to do it."

Actually I don't see anything fair in all this wiping cause people who obtaided HKs, rep and rank worked hard to do it expending time (and money too, cause WoW cost a fee per month so time->money).
To just wipe time/money spent to start at same level with new players is not fair... It's just like saying: "Oh... You are starting WOW now while your friend who started 1 year ago has a full T2 set? Poor man... Let's be fair and wipe your friend T2 equip so you can start from same level".
You find that fair? For me not at all.
 
I bump the above post by Thorak, ive worked hard for my pvp rank and I am DAMN PROUD of my rank, its not fair for Blizzard to just come in and change the system suddenly, not without some serious compensation, if anything they should make the release phased in and give ample time to the pvpers to get to the rank they want to reach instead of this bluffing method of not saying the official release date that has had every pvper in bout of panic as they rush to reach atleast rank 11 before the patch.

Hyponx
 
These changes have been coming for quite some time. They were announced a while ago and it was made very clear how they would be set up. I would say that people have known for at least a month (conservatively) that they would lose their honor and such. If you have been living under a rock this is not Blizzard's problem.

I don't know why people would be proud of their rank. It is a measure of how much time you spend in BG's, nothing more.
 
Do we get experience from handing in 30 marks of honor?

Do we get experience from battlegrounds at all? How?
 
I think the new PVP system sounds awesome. I heard from someone that if you're exalted in all 4 battle grounds you can get a flying mount (so rep does matter).

I also think its a lot more fair because there's losers who sit there all day 24/7 BGing and they get awesome gear but not everyone can do that, so it makes it easier for people who have lives to enjoy WoW.

It's not like they still won't have to work for it, but they don't have to worry about not being able to play for a week or so and losing all their rank progress. I mean it's probably not as fair to the people who did bust their ass 24/7 to get good gear, but it's a game and you have to be aware that things change before you choose to put such an effort/commitment into mmorpgs. You shouldn't be putting aside the real world for WoW, if you do that's your own problem.
 
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