Tuesday, December 12, 2006
Will you reset DKP in Burning Crusade?
Now here is an interesting question for all World of Warcraft players that are part of a raiding guild: Will your guild reset their DKP system after the Burning Crusade comes out?
The basic function of a DKP system is that a guild hands out IOUs to members which put a lot of effort into raiding, but due to bad luck didn't get an appropriate amount of epics out of the exercise. That does make sense to a certain degree: if your guild is going to Molten Core every week, and you participate all the time, but no item for your class dropped, the least you would expect is that the day such an item drops you get priority over somebody who is on his first raid there.
There are a lot of different loot distribution systems, and not all of them hold up well over long periods of time. The good systems don't promise more epics to their members than they can deliver. A zero-sum DKP system automatically is always balanced. The even simpler Suicide Kings system just works with a list, with the person on top of the list having first right of refusal, and then dropping to the bottom of the list when he gets an item; so this system can go on forever as well. But lots of DKP systems end up giving out more points per raid than the epics in that raid cost. The inevitable consequence is that some members accumulate huge amounts of points. Even worse, if the DKP point cost per item is fixed, the guild ends up owing these people the equivalent of a dozen epics.
Many guilds already raid less than they used to. And when the Burning Crusade expansion comes out, there won't be many raids for quite some time, until the guilds have over 25 people that reached level 70. After this break some guild will find themselves on their first level 70 raid, finding their first level 70 epics, and some people are going to be rather unhappy about how these epics are being distributed. "What do you mean, you got 10,000 DKP and have first right of refusal on the next 20 epics that drop?"
Why should the fact that player A has been much more often to Molten Core with the guild than player B give him priority on more than one epic at level 70? Due to the raiding break between level 60 and 70, and everybody going into the level 70 raids with blue items from Burning Crusade dungeons, there is no more direct link between the contribution of player A in Molten Core and the success of the guild in the level 70 raids.
The problem here is that the people with the most accumulated DKP are likely to be the officers of the guild. I don't even know yet if I'll even dare to ask the question whether DKP are going to be reset for BC in my guild. Because the people who decide that are those that would lose most. Of course they would prefer to have first dibs on all the loot coming out of the level 70 raid dungeons, getting completely geared up before somebody else even gets their first epic. It would take some rather enlightened guild leadership to see that this wouldn't be in the best interest of the guild as a whole. But setting up a good transition system wouldn't be easy either. This is going to be difficult for many guilds.
So how is your guild going to handle DKP in the expansion? Do you have a system which accumulated a lot of DKP for some people over the last couple of months? Are you taking that system fully into the expansion, or is there some sort of reset?
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I guess we will not reset DKPs for anyone. From what i see now, there is zero reason to worry about DKP in BC yet. Not a single zone in beta warrants a DKP system. I doubt even the 25 endgame zones will, if you prepared your guild roster for it. The only kind of guilds wich will run into problems are those who focused on 40 raid setups only. And even they got enough time to prepare for the change.
Let´s be less emotional here. I do think guild rosters in BC will change very much. Rosters do not need the huge spare members they have now. Who seriously thinks a future BC endgame guild will contain the numbers they have now? When you have a core of 30 people, do you seriously need a DKP system for 25ish raids? You will have about 10 people max who switch attendance, not 20 or more as of right now.
We have not seen a real raidzone in BC yet. There are two options Blizzard will go with those smaller raidsizes. Either raids will require really focused setups (e.g. only warriors can tank stuff, only priests can heal sufficient enough etc.) or encounters are designed that pretty much any setup works, if your members know their stuff.
Depending on that, guilds will build their future rosters and maybe we will see guilds with two times their perfect setup rosters (and then you will need DKP) or you don't and will pretty much survive without that. DKP will be out of peoples mind for the next month to come. We´ll see weeks, maybe month without any raids at all, for the majority of players. If my guild schedules 40 raids when BC hits, i will not subscribe for them. They will have a hard time convincing me to take huge efforts for only DKP or sidegrade gear. It´s not like in EQ, where every level bump was the key to succeed in old raid content. Old content wich loots still were topnotch for at least the next year.
Many problems we may face right now will solve themselves in the next couple of month, DKP is one of those. DKP spreads loots across your guilds roster, when those change, so will the value of a DKP system. Should you reset it? You should not have too, if you feel you should to, it may a bad sign of the system not working right.
Let´s be less emotional here. I do think guild rosters in BC will change very much. Rosters do not need the huge spare members they have now. Who seriously thinks a future BC endgame guild will contain the numbers they have now? When you have a core of 30 people, do you seriously need a DKP system for 25ish raids? You will have about 10 people max who switch attendance, not 20 or more as of right now.
We have not seen a real raidzone in BC yet. There are two options Blizzard will go with those smaller raidsizes. Either raids will require really focused setups (e.g. only warriors can tank stuff, only priests can heal sufficient enough etc.) or encounters are designed that pretty much any setup works, if your members know their stuff.
Depending on that, guilds will build their future rosters and maybe we will see guilds with two times their perfect setup rosters (and then you will need DKP) or you don't and will pretty much survive without that. DKP will be out of peoples mind for the next month to come. We´ll see weeks, maybe month without any raids at all, for the majority of players. If my guild schedules 40 raids when BC hits, i will not subscribe for them. They will have a hard time convincing me to take huge efforts for only DKP or sidegrade gear. It´s not like in EQ, where every level bump was the key to succeed in old raid content. Old content wich loots still were topnotch for at least the next year.
Many problems we may face right now will solve themselves in the next couple of month, DKP is one of those. DKP spreads loots across your guilds roster, when those change, so will the value of a DKP system. Should you reset it? You should not have too, if you feel you should to, it may a bad sign of the system not working right.
We allready decided to reset our DKP System 2 Months ago.(we are an alliance of three guilds)
This prevents people from not using DKP at the moment. although they could get an upgrade.
We are usung a Zero Sum DKP System and if the Expansion allows, will use it again.
Savrukk
This prevents people from not using DKP at the moment. although they could get an upgrade.
We are usung a Zero Sum DKP System and if the Expansion allows, will use it again.
Savrukk
I see no reason to zero the DKP for BC. In theory the DKP is a means to allow for loyalty within the guild - hey mr. Main Tank if you stay with the guild you'll get some reward when you hit level 70.
I'll admit I'll probably try to ensure I spend my DKP while it's still useful but I see no reason why someone who raided with us and raided well should lose their reward just because blizzard choose to release new content.
I'll admit I'll probably try to ensure I spend my DKP while it's still useful but I see no reason why someone who raided with us and raided well should lose their reward just because blizzard choose to release new content.
We're doing something that may be a horrible idea, but it's the best we could come up with.
Basically, for the beginning of BC, we'll have two different types of DKP (Call them "Gold" and "Silver"). The "Silver" DKP in this case represents pre-Xpac DKP earned in MC/AQ/etc.. and the Gold DKP will, when it comes about, be awarded based on BC Raids.
"Gold" DKP will automatically win over "Silver" DKP. So 1 G-DKP > any amount of S-DKP, though, 1 G-DKP + 2 S-DKP > 1 G-DKP + 1 S-DKP.
This has the benefit of keeping people raiding now, since it means that by raiding a lot in the short term, they can get first crack at BC items. But it also means that they cannot really build up an insurmountable DKP advantage over others, since after the first couple weeks of people's arrival at 70, we'll probably be mostly to G-DKP as the standard.
Eventually, we'll transition to just one sort of DKP, but in the mean time, the theory is that people who get to 70 quickly and raid the BC dungeons ought to get first pick from those instances, but when everyone gets there, someone who raided a lot previously ought to get preference over someone who raided very little previously, but got to 70 at the same time.
~Greg
Basically, for the beginning of BC, we'll have two different types of DKP (Call them "Gold" and "Silver"). The "Silver" DKP in this case represents pre-Xpac DKP earned in MC/AQ/etc.. and the Gold DKP will, when it comes about, be awarded based on BC Raids.
"Gold" DKP will automatically win over "Silver" DKP. So 1 G-DKP > any amount of S-DKP, though, 1 G-DKP + 2 S-DKP > 1 G-DKP + 1 S-DKP.
This has the benefit of keeping people raiding now, since it means that by raiding a lot in the short term, they can get first crack at BC items. But it also means that they cannot really build up an insurmountable DKP advantage over others, since after the first couple weeks of people's arrival at 70, we'll probably be mostly to G-DKP as the standard.
Eventually, we'll transition to just one sort of DKP, but in the mean time, the theory is that people who get to 70 quickly and raid the BC dungeons ought to get first pick from those instances, but when everyone gets there, someone who raided a lot previously ought to get preference over someone who raided very little previously, but got to 70 at the same time.
~Greg
Our guild has 2 DKP systems setup atm.
20man ZG / AQ20
40man MC / BWL / AQ40 / Naxx
and I assume we'll just make another 1 that people start off at 0, like a
25man (BC Instances)
If you run ZG or AQ20 all the time then when your stuff drops you get it cause you've accumulated more DKP then anyone else, items from each type of DKP are worth different values as are bosses from each area to balance it out, same as BWL MC etc, so I dont see any reason BC wont be the same.....someone who hits 70 first and raids more BC contents then me deserves it more, but we all started from 0.
20man ZG / AQ20
40man MC / BWL / AQ40 / Naxx
and I assume we'll just make another 1 that people start off at 0, like a
25man (BC Instances)
If you run ZG or AQ20 all the time then when your stuff drops you get it cause you've accumulated more DKP then anyone else, items from each type of DKP are worth different values as are bosses from each area to balance it out, same as BWL MC etc, so I dont see any reason BC wont be the same.....someone who hits 70 first and raids more BC contents then me deserves it more, but we all started from 0.
We currently use zero-sum DKP and it's worked very well. Our plan right now is to run 1 guild raid a week once the expansion comes out. This is to keep our group cohesion together while not slowing down character progression.
We will have a separate DKP system for the level 70 raids. This is to keep our current DKP system viable and prevent any hoarding.
Plus the item values will be radically different for those new higher-tiered items (we use a calculation to determine item DKP cost). This artifical inflation will mean any saved up DKP isn't worth as much, and will effectively make using the old system seem pointless.
I would caution anyone from beliving that a new 25-man based raiding guild doesn't need an objective loot system in place. Nothing kills a guild faster than the "officer favortism" rumor.
-Mart
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We will have a separate DKP system for the level 70 raids. This is to keep our current DKP system viable and prevent any hoarding.
Plus the item values will be radically different for those new higher-tiered items (we use a calculation to determine item DKP cost). This artifical inflation will mean any saved up DKP isn't worth as much, and will effectively make using the old system seem pointless.
I would caution anyone from beliving that a new 25-man based raiding guild doesn't need an objective loot system in place. Nothing kills a guild faster than the "officer favortism" rumor.
-Mart
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