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Wednesday, December 13, 2006
WoW Journal - 13-December-2006
I spent all of last evening in Alterac Valley with my troll warrior, doing PvP. This turned out to be a good idea, as this morning during the maintenance Blizzard nerfed the honor gain, so I hope I still get yesterday's honor on the previous scheme. I did AV because I already had far too many AB victory marks, and because I wanted to test whether I would also get about 1,000 honor per hour in AV. And because I like AV, it is fun, even if I rarely win.
My new arms warrior build, with the new BC talents, turns out to be pretty good in PvP. Especially useful is the talent Second Wind (Whenever you are struck by a Stun or Immobilize effect you will generate 20 rage and 10% of your total health over 10 sec.). As in AV I get hit by a stun or immobilize effect far more often than once every 10 seconds, this basically gives me a continuous health regeneration and rage gain. Nifty.
In 4 hours I did 4 Alterac Valleys and gained 4 AV victory marks, because we didn't win a single one. This bring me up to 10 AV victory marks, from 1 win and 7 losses. In Arathi Basin I got over 40 AB victory marks. I only lost a single complete AB battle since the patch, although technically I "lost" two more AB battles, because I joined battles which had already started and where the Alliance was several hundred points ahead. I don't mind, because a quick loss still gives one mark, a few honor points, and doesn't take up much of my time. But the fact that the Horde wins more than half of the AB battles disproves the theory that Alliance is better in PvP or better organized. If the Horde loses most AV battles, it must be related to geography.
The battles I participated in were of two types: fast or slow. The fast battles was when both sides rushed past each other, Alliance directly taking FW graveyard and Horde directly taking SP graveyard, without bothering with anything in the middle. Alliance wins those kind of battles even if Horde takes SP a bit earlier than Alliance takes FW, because for Horde it is much more difficult to storm the Alliance castle than the other way round. The fast battles gave one quick losers "victory" mark, but weren't that much fun.
The slow battles happened when one side decided to try to stop the other side. That works in all cases, but results in neither side being able to win quickly. I have a growing suspicion that in the end Alliance wins because they always control the SF graveyard in the middle. Both sides follow natural "paths" from their side to the other, and the SF graveyard lies on the Alliance path, but away from the Horde path. With the middle graveyard under permanent control, the Alliance is never thrown back further than the middle. But as Horde I often got killed at SH or SP and ended up far back in the starting cave, and then got bottled up there by Alliance players not letting anyone pass IB. So in a war of attrition the Alliance also wins in the end, due to shorter supply paths. I found the slow battles more fun, except for the one that lasted over 2 hours, because then you don't gain much honor from kills any more in the end. And of course you get very few victory marks like that.
I hope I got the 4,000 honor points I was shooting for last night, because that would bring up my total to nearly 11,000 points, half way to the High Warlord's Blade I would like to get for 22,500 points. As the blade besides the points only costs 20 AB marks, which are trivial to get, I don't mind how slow I get the AV marks. Maybe one day I end up with 25 of them, and can buy the Immovable Object shield, which only costs 7,000 honor points besides the 25 AV marks. It seems the battleground-specific items have a lower point cost and higher mark cost than the general PvP reward items. Unfortunately a first check didn't reveal any interesting items for a warrior that could be bought cheaply with AB marks, the level 60 weapons there are a casters staff and dagger.
The good news yesterday was that the battleground were relatively lag-free and stable, but that was because Blizzard had disabled the cross-realm battlegroups, and we only fought against people from our own server.
- posted by Tobold @ 9:28 AM Permanent Link
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You are correct that the middle graveyard is essentially the key to AV. Horde almost never cap this GY or keep it, thus they loose. I've been in a few games where horde do take and keep this GY and also have won. Coincidence?
# posted by 
: 13/12/06 14:17
: 13/12/06 14:17
It's weird, because in my battlegroup Horde wins nearly everytime in AV. And not by capping GY or bunkers, but by racing to the last 2 alliance graveyard and taking down the two last bunkers. There is usually very little defence as the allies are busy doing exactly the same at the other end of the map. The loss of Iceblood is normally not a problem, as we cap SP and aid station very fast.
This strategy seems to be completely accepted and I can see why (at least from a horde point of view) since you gain around 400 honor for winning in less than 15 minutes and you can queue again and get in within a minute of victory...
We seem to be much better at killing the marshalls though and end up killing Vanadar before they kill Drek, even though, arguably, they have less trash to get rid off around our base, that we have around theirs.
This strategy seems to be completely accepted and I can see why (at least from a horde point of view) since you gain around 400 honor for winning in less than 15 minutes and you can queue again and get in within a minute of victory...
We seem to be much better at killing the marshalls though and end up killing Vanadar before they kill Drek, even though, arguably, they have less trash to get rid off around our base, that we have around theirs.
# posted by : 13/12/06 14:30
: 13/12/06 14:30
Tobold, I'm glad you're finally enjoying some BG action with your re-spec'ed 60! It's nice to explore all different kinds of content in the game.
My experience in AV was that it was fairly trivial to grind to Exalted and get the Unstoppable Force, Rank 6 epic trinket, and a whole host of other purples. (They still cost 50-100g each, but at least they were accessible.) Nowadays I think the honor grind is actually tougher for those items, and you might as well buy the Marshal/Warlord items instead.
Or save up all your honor for the level 70 items, which won't expire in 5 weeks! :)
My experience in AV was that it was fairly trivial to grind to Exalted and get the Unstoppable Force, Rank 6 epic trinket, and a whole host of other purples. (They still cost 50-100g each, but at least they were accessible.) Nowadays I think the honor grind is actually tougher for those items, and you might as well buy the Marshal/Warlord items instead.
Or save up all your honor for the level 70 items, which won't expire in 5 weeks! :)
Tobold: Grats on your new PvP experiences!
PvP is the Formula One of WoW.
PvE is open highway on cruise control.
I have learned a lot about AV over several months of play, and continue to learn.
(Sorry in advance for the length...)
Geography in AV is important, and tends to favor Alliance mainly because it's easy to see the correct Alliance strategy, but not so easy to see the Horde strategy.
A few keys that I've gleaned:
On D
- Need 5 to 10; some may start on O and then rez in the cave or 'trinket' back (hunters and mages seem especially good, IMO, on D)
- Your first D pinch point is Galv and the nearby tower / GY (I've seen good D cause an Alliance wipe on Galv)
- Your Horde GYs, if unguarded, can be ninja-ed easily
- Hold / retake towers if you can, not just GYs
- If you're defending Drek, and a hunter lets loose his pet on you, pull the pet to Drek and it will aggro Drek and the warmasters to the hunter outside and wipe the Alliance O before they are ready to pull
- Defending Galv / Drek, kill the tank
- NEVER take/retake Snowfall GY, because then you cause a turtle
On O
- Don't bypass the SH and IW bunkers; take them and guard them with at least two people until they cap
- Take SH GY and guard it with a couple of people until it caps
- Under the new system, be sure to take out the roving Lieutenants and Bal (which you can do while SH GY caps)
- If Horde O bypasses a bunker Commander, or roving Lieutenant (never seen that happen post-patch tho), then after SH GY caps, pull the target mob to the SH GY flag and the friendly mobs and toons rezzing there will help you finish him off (I've even pulled the Commander of SH bunker all the way to the SH GY flag)
- Bal is good because the whole Bal group tends to go TOGETHER in a GROUP to SP GY (piecemeal attacks on a defended SP GY are suicide)
- Jeztor is in a hut in the camp above IW bunker a bit out-of-the-way; check to make sure she is sent on her way as you go by
- Take the high road to SP GY; the low road is a lazy route right into a meatgrinder that doesn’t give Horde a good run on the flag
- Take the high road, run all the way around and come down from the mine or possibly drop in over the GY (or from above mages can AOE Alliance rezzers; hunters can harass the casters that rez)
- TAKE THE HIGH ROAD!
- If you're a clever sort you can take the under-bridge route to SP GY instead, especially good if you're just pulling off the SP GY Commander & soldiers because you have a lot of room to pull them
- Don't fight on the bridge, push past (I play a warrior too; your job is to push to the hunters / mages / priests, hope for a heal, and if you're about to die, Intimidating Shout to disrupt)
- You'll need to take the bunkers; usually people peel off and do that. By now you know the drill: Guard each tower with a couple of people until they cap
- You can pull any NPC across the bridge to the GY flag and use your NPCs and GY defenders to kill Commanders (I've even seen a Marshal pulled across and killed that way if Alliance D isn't harassing SP GY)
- Leave unnecessary Alliance NPCs in Stormpike alone
- Push past AS GY to the aid station (that's why the warrior is there, to spearhead the assault!)
- If Horde are holding back on AS GY, and you're riding in after rezzing, ride past AS GY to the aid station
- Get one or more on the flag and PW:S him/them so AOE won't interrupt (pop your Defiler's trinket before you try to cap; warrior pop Berserker Rage for fear immunity)
- Start pulling (hopefully SP GY has capped); hunter pulls, warrior taunts a marshal, hunter feigns, rinse, repeat.
- ALL IN for Vann
Never give up! I can't count the times that Alliance had FW relief hut and the Frostwolf towers and Horde was just attacking SP GY, and Alliance blew the pulls (or were just plain slow) and the Horde caught up and won.
Also...
I haven't seen it done on our battlegroup, but if Alliance has no D, Vann can be pulled alone if you do it fast before Alliance caps the Horde towers (~8 minute win).
Our battlegroup is, overall, roughly even in AV (maybe 40%-50% win rate over time).
PvP is the Formula One of WoW.
PvE is open highway on cruise control.
I have learned a lot about AV over several months of play, and continue to learn.
(Sorry in advance for the length...)
Geography in AV is important, and tends to favor Alliance mainly because it's easy to see the correct Alliance strategy, but not so easy to see the Horde strategy.
A few keys that I've gleaned:
On D
- Need 5 to 10; some may start on O and then rez in the cave or 'trinket' back (hunters and mages seem especially good, IMO, on D)
- Your first D pinch point is Galv and the nearby tower / GY (I've seen good D cause an Alliance wipe on Galv)
- Your Horde GYs, if unguarded, can be ninja-ed easily
- Hold / retake towers if you can, not just GYs
- If you're defending Drek, and a hunter lets loose his pet on you, pull the pet to Drek and it will aggro Drek and the warmasters to the hunter outside and wipe the Alliance O before they are ready to pull
- Defending Galv / Drek, kill the tank
- NEVER take/retake Snowfall GY, because then you cause a turtle
On O
- Don't bypass the SH and IW bunkers; take them and guard them with at least two people until they cap
- Take SH GY and guard it with a couple of people until it caps
- Under the new system, be sure to take out the roving Lieutenants and Bal (which you can do while SH GY caps)
- If Horde O bypasses a bunker Commander, or roving Lieutenant (never seen that happen post-patch tho), then after SH GY caps, pull the target mob to the SH GY flag and the friendly mobs and toons rezzing there will help you finish him off (I've even pulled the Commander of SH bunker all the way to the SH GY flag)
- Bal is good because the whole Bal group tends to go TOGETHER in a GROUP to SP GY (piecemeal attacks on a defended SP GY are suicide)
- Jeztor is in a hut in the camp above IW bunker a bit out-of-the-way; check to make sure she is sent on her way as you go by
- Take the high road to SP GY; the low road is a lazy route right into a meatgrinder that doesn’t give Horde a good run on the flag
- Take the high road, run all the way around and come down from the mine or possibly drop in over the GY (or from above mages can AOE Alliance rezzers; hunters can harass the casters that rez)
- TAKE THE HIGH ROAD!
- If you're a clever sort you can take the under-bridge route to SP GY instead, especially good if you're just pulling off the SP GY Commander & soldiers because you have a lot of room to pull them
- Don't fight on the bridge, push past (I play a warrior too; your job is to push to the hunters / mages / priests, hope for a heal, and if you're about to die, Intimidating Shout to disrupt)
- You'll need to take the bunkers; usually people peel off and do that. By now you know the drill: Guard each tower with a couple of people until they cap
- You can pull any NPC across the bridge to the GY flag and use your NPCs and GY defenders to kill Commanders (I've even seen a Marshal pulled across and killed that way if Alliance D isn't harassing SP GY)
- Leave unnecessary Alliance NPCs in Stormpike alone
- Push past AS GY to the aid station (that's why the warrior is there, to spearhead the assault!)
- If Horde are holding back on AS GY, and you're riding in after rezzing, ride past AS GY to the aid station
- Get one or more on the flag and PW:S him/them so AOE won't interrupt (pop your Defiler's trinket before you try to cap; warrior pop Berserker Rage for fear immunity)
- Start pulling (hopefully SP GY has capped); hunter pulls, warrior taunts a marshal, hunter feigns, rinse, repeat.
- ALL IN for Vann
Never give up! I can't count the times that Alliance had FW relief hut and the Frostwolf towers and Horde was just attacking SP GY, and Alliance blew the pulls (or were just plain slow) and the Horde caught up and won.
Also...
I haven't seen it done on our battlegroup, but if Alliance has no D, Vann can be pulled alone if you do it fast before Alliance caps the Horde towers (~8 minute win).
Our battlegroup is, overall, roughly even in AV (maybe 40%-50% win rate over time).
I got charged by some red haired troll while I was having a dinner party with my friends at SP GY. How rude of you Tobold! :P
As for the subject itself, Doeg has some very good tip for you. I really do like when Horde takes the straight road to SP, beacuse it is fun and easy for me. Of course with big enough numerical advantage you can over run us, but multi sided attack would be much smarter.
In my battlegroup, it's very rare for Horde to win AV. But the reasons you mention for why Horde loses don't seem to match what I have seen. In a war of attrition, Horde usually has a better chance. In a fast fight, Alliance wins. Someone on the forums posted the most compelling explanation I have heard for why Horde loses AV, and it has nothing to do with the towers, bypassing the NPCs, or anything about skill:
There's one thing you have to realize here. You can talk tactics and strategy all you want, but in the end it boils down to one fact: 3/4 of all players, whether they're Horde or Alliance, don't think tactically at all. They just run straight forward until they see some enemy, and then they try to kill them.
Horde takes Stonehearth quickly while the Alliance is messing about with Galv and Iceblood Tower. Alliance who die on the front lines res at Stormpike, run foward, and run into the Horde front line. They attack, die, and res at Stormpike again... and all of a sudden, you've got a heavy Alliance defense of Stormpike. This isn't a deliberate strategy, notice no brains were used, it just *happens*.
Horde, on the other hand, charges forward, and when they die, they res at Iceblood. It's just a little hop off the ledge, and they're back at the front lines again. Eventually Stonehearth caps (usually before Iceblood is taken), and they start ressing there, with a free run up to the front lines. Presto, Horde has a 40-man offense. This isn't a deliberate strategy, no brains were used, it just *happens*.
Once Iceblood is taken, the Alliance force is usually at Frostwolf, out of the way of Horde moving north from their tunnel. So Horde can usually keep running forward to offense if they like. Alliance, on the other hand, has no way past the Horde attack on Stormpike. Except for going under the bridge and past the pond, which 3/4 of them are too stupid to do.
So, the layout of the midfield means that, if no brains are used on either side, Horde will end up with a 40-man offense, and Alliance with a strong defense. Unless Alliance ends up with 30 or more on D (which does happen), this is a guaranteed win for Alliance, since a 20-man defense can hold a 40-man offense forever.
By that reasoning, allowing Alliance to take SF early is actually a good strategy for the Horde, because then they won't res back at SP and provide a built-in defense.
There's one thing you have to realize here. You can talk tactics and strategy all you want, but in the end it boils down to one fact: 3/4 of all players, whether they're Horde or Alliance, don't think tactically at all. They just run straight forward until they see some enemy, and then they try to kill them.
Horde takes Stonehearth quickly while the Alliance is messing about with Galv and Iceblood Tower. Alliance who die on the front lines res at Stormpike, run foward, and run into the Horde front line. They attack, die, and res at Stormpike again... and all of a sudden, you've got a heavy Alliance defense of Stormpike. This isn't a deliberate strategy, notice no brains were used, it just *happens*.
Horde, on the other hand, charges forward, and when they die, they res at Iceblood. It's just a little hop off the ledge, and they're back at the front lines again. Eventually Stonehearth caps (usually before Iceblood is taken), and they start ressing there, with a free run up to the front lines. Presto, Horde has a 40-man offense. This isn't a deliberate strategy, no brains were used, it just *happens*.
Once Iceblood is taken, the Alliance force is usually at Frostwolf, out of the way of Horde moving north from their tunnel. So Horde can usually keep running forward to offense if they like. Alliance, on the other hand, has no way past the Horde attack on Stormpike. Except for going under the bridge and past the pond, which 3/4 of them are too stupid to do.
So, the layout of the midfield means that, if no brains are used on either side, Horde will end up with a 40-man offense, and Alliance with a strong defense. Unless Alliance ends up with 30 or more on D (which does happen), this is a guaranteed win for Alliance, since a 20-man defense can hold a 40-man offense forever.
By that reasoning, allowing Alliance to take SF early is actually a good strategy for the Horde, because then they won't res back at SP and provide a built-in defense.
I played a lot of AV, getting my warrior and my priest exhalted. And it is funny to see a complete different view of the battle.
When I played Horde won ~60% of the games but most games were won on weekend when all the "kiddies" were playing. No defence and "rush at all costs" favour the horde because they can kill the marshalls easily. With some decent defence (10-15) the game takes longer but most of those games were won by allies.
So in our pool the longer battles are won by the allies while the fast battles are won by horde (at least most of the time).
When I played Horde won ~60% of the games but most games were won on weekend when all the "kiddies" were playing. No defence and "rush at all costs" favour the horde because they can kill the marshalls easily. With some decent defence (10-15) the game takes longer but most of those games were won by allies.
So in our pool the longer battles are won by the allies while the fast battles are won by horde (at least most of the time).
# posted by : 14/12/06 08:38
: 14/12/06 08:38
Tobold,
To try and get some sensible comparison could you try and do some PvP as your Human Priest and then let us know how the Alliance and Horde compare directly?
Cheers,
Krazz (Earthen Ring EU)
To try and get some sensible comparison could you try and do some PvP as your Human Priest and then let us know how the Alliance and Horde compare directly?
Cheers,
Krazz (Earthen Ring EU)
# posted by : 14/12/06 13:17
: 14/12/06 13:17
When I played Horde won ~60% of the games but most games were won on weekend when all the "kiddies" were playing. No defence and "rush at all costs" favour the horde because they can kill the marshalls easily. With some decent defence (10-15) the game takes longer but most of those games were won by allies.
This is the exact opposite of the AV's in the "Rampage" battlegroup. Short and quick (< 45 mins) tend to be Alliance wins. Defense and grind it out tend to be Horde wins (> 45 mins).
Very interesting the differences across battlegroups.
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This is the exact opposite of the AV's in the "Rampage" battlegroup. Short and quick (< 45 mins) tend to be Alliance wins. Defense and grind it out tend to be Horde wins (> 45 mins).
Very interesting the differences across battlegroups.
# posted by : 15/12/06 00:22
: 15/12/06 00:22<< Home
