Wednesday, January 10, 2007
Challenge, anyone?
In 1973 two young guys founded a company named Tactical Studies Rules to produce a rule set for a tabletop war-game. The game was to be a squad-based tactics game, and the new idea was to have every player play one soldier in the squad. As there were already lots of historical war-games on the market, the developers decided to use a fantasy setting, based on the works of J.R.R. Tolkien and other authors. The game came out a year later under the name of Dungeons & Dragons, the company shortened its name to TSR, and the history of role-playing games had started. Fast forward to 2007, and the face of role-playing games has changed a lot, with World of Warcraft being a prominent example of the genre now. But at the heart of it every MMORPG is still a squad-based tactical war-game, and the challenges the game poses you are still mostly tactical in nature.
The main challenge in the gameplay of a MMORPG is to take tactical decisions in a limited time-frame. You have to decide which of your abilities to use, or when to run away. Unlike a first-person shooter or platformer game, a MMORPG isn't very twitchy. You have a second or so for each decision, and being much faster, or having much better hand-eye coordination, doesn't make you much stronger. At any given moment there is a cap on how hard a challenge your character is able to overcome. That cap is given by in-game statistics like level, skill points, or how much damage your spells do. Somewhere out there, there is a mob you can't possibly beat solo with your current level and gear, however hard you practice. Only by going up a level, or getting better gear, can you get past that cap. Or by not taking the challenge on solo, but forming a squad, a.k.a. group. In the hardest cases you even need a platoon, a.k.a. raid.
Playing in a group or raid increases your options, because of the interaction with the other group members. The group is stronger than the sum of its parts, because you can make tactical decisions which bring out the strong side of every class. In a solo combat you have to deal damage, withstand damage, and heal damage all by yourself. In a group you can have the tank do the withstand damage part, have a mage or rogue do the damage dealing part, and have the healer do the damage healing part. The challenge becomes one of coordination and aggro management. You don't pull when the healer is out of mana, you don't launch your fireball before the tank has sufficient aggro, and so on. The coordination of a 40-player encounter can be truly challenging, and need a lot of practice before the raid gets it right.
But practice you can in a MMORPG, in solo, group or raid mode. Unlike a real war, or a pen & paper role-playing game where the mob is controlled by an unpredictable dungeon master, in a MMORPG a mob is controlled by a predictable artificial intelligence. You died the first time that murloc ran away from you and alerted all his friends, but the next time you pulled him away farther from the others and beat him. You learn which mobs have what resistances and weaknesses, and how to beat each of them. With the harder and more unique boss encounters, you might even be able to read the tactics on the internet, or even see a video on YouTube. Chances are when your guild first saw Onyxia, you already knew about the three phases of the combat, and somebody was making a "minus 50 DKP" joke. It is more a matter of learning, of knowledge, and less of skill.
Now if you compare different MMORPG, you call some of them "easier", and others "harder". But in fact the "hard" games like EQ1 or Vanguard are not requiring an ounce more of skill than the "easy" World of Warcraft. The only difference between these games is in how much reward they give out for a success, and how much punishment for a failure. It is absolutely necessary to have both a reward for success and some punishment for failure, otherwise there is no game. But success or failure do rarely depend on the actual skill of the player, but more on the risk he is willing to take. You died because you fought a monster you didn't know yet and it was stronger than you thought, or because something unexpected like a respawn happened. Once you know all the abilities of that mob, the layout of its camp, and the potential adds and respawns, you don't die any more.
So if a game is "harder", taking away experience from you when you die, and handing it back to you slower, you automatically react by taking less risks. The game effectively punishes you for taking on new challenges, so you better get to know one camp of mobs very well, and stick to it. In Everquest people could stay for several levels camping the same mob encounter. There were other mobs of the same level in the game, but why would you want to go there, if tackling that new mob probably meant a bunch of lost experience points and no added reward? In the "easier" World of Warcraft you don't lose xp by dying, only some time and money for repairs. And with nearly every monster camp being covered by a different quest, moving from one encounter to the next suddenly becomes a lot more interesting. Even if you die once or twice before you learn the new encounter, the added quest reward more than makes up for the small death penalty. So the “harder” game doesn’t take more skill, it only pushes you into a more boring gameplay, taking away options from you.
If a mob can’t be beat in solo mode at all, you need a group to do it. If there is no mob that gives reasonable xp in solo mode, the game is effectively forcing players to group. Forced grouping is another way to take away options from the players by making the game "harder". If one day you don’t feel sociable, or you don’t have the time required to first set up a group and then stay together long enough to make the group finding worth while, you lost the option to go adventuring that day.
In group situations, making a game "harder" also has mostly bad unintended effects. If you grab 5 random people of the correct level for a group, and fail to beat a specific encounter, what do you do? Making the group stronger by improving coordination is hard. Often all the group members already play their class reasonably well and have grasped basic concepts of aggro management. Sometimes there is a complete idiot, but these people are usually hard to educate. And if everybody is already playing reasonably well, getting coordination to perfect isn’t going to make enough of a difference to really become much stronger. So often players take the easier way of making a group stronger: changing the composition to something closer to ideal. Out goes the shaman healer, in goes a cleric. Instead of tanking with a warlock’s pet, you invite a warrior. If you group with these people more often, for example because they are guild members, you exert peer pressure to make the cleric specialize in healing, and the warrior wear a shield instead of a two-hander. Again the "harder" game is just taking away options from the players, because suddenly playing your shadow priest becomes less viable, or your hunter can’t get an invite to a group.
The problem is that nobody has yet come up with a way to make a mob encounter more *mentally* challenging. Making something harder just means increasing the stats of the mob, not increasing the artificial intelligence of the mob, or forcing the player to think more when beating it. Because there is no more clever way to beat a mob, the only options of the players are to become stronger by going up in level or gear, or by bringing more other players to an encounter. We talk a lot about Chinese gold farmer bots ruining the economy. But the real scandal behind that is that it is actually possible for a bot, which is just an extended macro with no artificial intelligence to speak of, to play a MMORPG well enough to earn rewards that other players crave. That tells you a lot about how "hard" a MMORPG really is. Telling somebody to "learn2play" is ridiculous, because even a bot can play this, there isn't much player skill involved once you learned how a specific encounter works.
I would like to play a MMORPG that was more mentally challenging, in which I would need to think more in each combat. I would like mobs to have better artificial intelligence and be more unpredictable. I would like having to make more tactical decisions, based on what I see the enemy doing, or other random factors. Sooner or later the "collectible card game" concept, where the abilities you can use at any given moment are "drawn" at random from a "deck" of abilities is going to hit the MMORPG genre, and I’m looking forward to that. I can also see a future generation of more twitchy "action MMORPG", but I’d prefer my challenges to remain tactical.
What I don’t want to play is a game which is only called "harder" or "more challenging", but does nothing more than have mobs with higher stats, less xp per kill, and more xp penalty in the case of dying. I don’t want my ability to explore the world taken away because I just can’t afford to die that often. I don’t want my ability to play solo taken away, because playing solo gives no or too little xp. I don’t want my ability to play with my friends taken away because the friend has the wrong class or the wrong spec. It doesn’t matter if the fanbois of the "hard" games call me a "carebear", I simply refuse any harder challenge that is only arrived at by taking away options from me. Give me a MMORPG with tactical challenges that a bot can't play, and I'll show you who really is the more skilled player.
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I'm pretty sure that this is the reasoning that leads to PvP...certainly I remember something similar going through my mind back in the day, that led me to move from a blue server to Rallos Zek in EQ1 - exaggerated notions that other players might be more interesting to fight, which on paper, they are.
I'm still trying to figure out what went wrong though, and why the gap between what I was expected and what I found, was so huge.
Also, Guild Wars might be worth examination in this context, having some degree of CCG to it. I consistently have troubles with the game, and I can't quite work out if it's just that I'm too slow nowadays, or if there is some much deeper complexity with the skill 'decks' - the eight hotkeys you choose - that I can quite fathom.
Fascinating topic!
I'm still trying to figure out what went wrong though, and why the gap between what I was expected and what I found, was so huge.
Also, Guild Wars might be worth examination in this context, having some degree of CCG to it. I consistently have troubles with the game, and I can't quite work out if it's just that I'm too slow nowadays, or if there is some much deeper complexity with the skill 'decks' - the eight hotkeys you choose - that I can quite fathom.
Fascinating topic!
I'm afraid it will always be possible to create a bot that can play a game (unless perhaps the game doesn't have any API).
1. The player will always have limited set of skills available to play the game. In order for the human to play the game, this limited set of skills (or combinations) must alow him to overcome any challenge the game throws at him. A bot will therefore also have all the tools required to beat those encounters as well since there is no possible way to improvise. Note that the human might be able to use those skills in a more inventive way perhaps but the core is the same, the tools to beat the game are available.
2. Challenges in the game are programmed. It only needs a 'smarter' program to beat it. Smarter can be either 'knowing the patterns' or 'understanding possible strategies'. Given that AI can beat a human in a game of chess, it requires another, better AI to beat that said AI. Since a bot is a specialist program (it doesn't need to do all the things the game-engine does) chances are bots are tweaked until they are smarter than the game AI.
A game doesn't need to be so challenging that a bot cannot play it. Again the chess computers is a good example here.
I do agree that the MMORPG genre could use different kinds of challenges. The AI improvement would be a first, the whole thing where you can kill a mob in visible range of another mob isn't very challenging once you know what mobs are linked together.
Another thing would be environment. You can't take cover in WoW (yes perhaps the 'line of sight' message pops up once in a while, but hide behind a crate is not possible - Gears of War took 'cover' to a new level in first person shooter genre).
Light and dark doesn't make any difference. If you're harder to spot in a dark corner -or even during nighttime-makes those ambushes much more scary (like Thief where light and dark have a more prominent role).
Encouters with trapdoors, collapsable corridors that change the layout of a dungeon could very well be possible in instances. Unexpected events with random outcomes provide much more challenges to the players, especially if multiple random events are created. With many scenarios possible it requires the players to rethink their strategies every encounter.
Sure it would require a lot of effort from the programmers as well to make things run smoother, but that's what would make a next-gen MMORPG and next-gen MMORPG
1. The player will always have limited set of skills available to play the game. In order for the human to play the game, this limited set of skills (or combinations) must alow him to overcome any challenge the game throws at him. A bot will therefore also have all the tools required to beat those encounters as well since there is no possible way to improvise. Note that the human might be able to use those skills in a more inventive way perhaps but the core is the same, the tools to beat the game are available.
2. Challenges in the game are programmed. It only needs a 'smarter' program to beat it. Smarter can be either 'knowing the patterns' or 'understanding possible strategies'. Given that AI can beat a human in a game of chess, it requires another, better AI to beat that said AI. Since a bot is a specialist program (it doesn't need to do all the things the game-engine does) chances are bots are tweaked until they are smarter than the game AI.
A game doesn't need to be so challenging that a bot cannot play it. Again the chess computers is a good example here.
I do agree that the MMORPG genre could use different kinds of challenges. The AI improvement would be a first, the whole thing where you can kill a mob in visible range of another mob isn't very challenging once you know what mobs are linked together.
Another thing would be environment. You can't take cover in WoW (yes perhaps the 'line of sight' message pops up once in a while, but hide behind a crate is not possible - Gears of War took 'cover' to a new level in first person shooter genre).
Light and dark doesn't make any difference. If you're harder to spot in a dark corner -or even during nighttime-makes those ambushes much more scary (like Thief where light and dark have a more prominent role).
Encouters with trapdoors, collapsable corridors that change the layout of a dungeon could very well be possible in instances. Unexpected events with random outcomes provide much more challenges to the players, especially if multiple random events are created. With many scenarios possible it requires the players to rethink their strategies every encounter.
Sure it would require a lot of effort from the programmers as well to make things run smoother, but that's what would make a next-gen MMORPG and next-gen MMORPG
Van Hemlock said...
Fascinating topic!
And you kind of started it, see yesterday's post. :)
Guild Wars might be worth examination in this context, having some degree of CCG to it
Guild Wars only goes half the way. You select a hand of 8 abilities, but the hand remains constant, there is no random element. I was more thinking of Metal Gear Acid (PSP), where you really draw a random hand of 6 abilities from a shuffled deck of 30 cards. So each turn the abilities from which you can chose are different, forcing you to react to the randomness.
Which leads us to
Felsir said...
I'm afraid it will always be possible to create a bot that can play a game.
Yes, but how much does it cost to program a bot of the complexity of Deep Fritz? And chess is a relatively simple rule set, lots of possibilities, but no random elements. The random hand from a deck gameplay would already be far too hard and costly to program for a MMORPG bot to be cost effective. So would anything which doesn't work with text input, but requires image analysis of what the enemy mob is doing. Bots in WoW exist because they are cheaper than a Chinese student. Nobody would write a program with an AI equivalent to a good chess program just to farm gold in an MMORPG.
Fascinating topic!
And you kind of started it, see yesterday's post. :)
Guild Wars might be worth examination in this context, having some degree of CCG to it
Guild Wars only goes half the way. You select a hand of 8 abilities, but the hand remains constant, there is no random element. I was more thinking of Metal Gear Acid (PSP), where you really draw a random hand of 6 abilities from a shuffled deck of 30 cards. So each turn the abilities from which you can chose are different, forcing you to react to the randomness.
Which leads us to
Felsir said...
I'm afraid it will always be possible to create a bot that can play a game.
Yes, but how much does it cost to program a bot of the complexity of Deep Fritz? And chess is a relatively simple rule set, lots of possibilities, but no random elements. The random hand from a deck gameplay would already be far too hard and costly to program for a MMORPG bot to be cost effective. So would anything which doesn't work with text input, but requires image analysis of what the enemy mob is doing. Bots in WoW exist because they are cheaper than a Chinese student. Nobody would write a program with an AI equivalent to a good chess program just to farm gold in an MMORPG.
Random mobs/spawns make a game a lot more interesting.
I used to play a game called Phantasy Star Online, where in the basic game, the same mobs would spawn in the same places every time. So it didn't take too long before you remembered every single encounter that was going to happen, and it got really boring.
There was also a different part of the game called Challenge Mode, where the number of mobs and their type varied every single time you played. This made the game a whole lot more interesting than before, and I played the game for 2 years simply because of this.
I think the problem with WOW being 'Easy Mode'(particularly in solo play or outdoor questing), is that a lot of players can't be bothered to put the time and effort into team play, and also generates a selfish attitude (you don't have to rely on others to play the game). How many times have you been in a party only for someone to drop out the minute things go wrong?
In team play, people take this selfish attitude with them. For DPS players, Damage Dealt seems to be the only thing of interest, not whether the boss was defeated or not. As a warlock I'm happy to be using debuffs on every and any mob going, but I pay the price DPS-wise by falling down the damage meter rankings. The fact that I contributed to the victory by making the enemy weaker and helped others boost their damage doesn't seem to matter; I was 10% worse on the damage meters, therefore I should L2P and re-roll a Mage.
As for you being a Carebear, Tobold, I would say you are a lot more hardcore than most WOW players, simply by being in a raiding guild and learning all the things you have to do to get through Onyxia, MC, BWL and so on.
I'm Lv 60, and I have just about exhausted all the normal quests available to me now. If it wasn't for Burning Crusade, I would have to really think about whether I can face joining a raiding guild, or simply quit the game.
I used to play a game called Phantasy Star Online, where in the basic game, the same mobs would spawn in the same places every time. So it didn't take too long before you remembered every single encounter that was going to happen, and it got really boring.
There was also a different part of the game called Challenge Mode, where the number of mobs and their type varied every single time you played. This made the game a whole lot more interesting than before, and I played the game for 2 years simply because of this.
I think the problem with WOW being 'Easy Mode'(particularly in solo play or outdoor questing), is that a lot of players can't be bothered to put the time and effort into team play, and also generates a selfish attitude (you don't have to rely on others to play the game). How many times have you been in a party only for someone to drop out the minute things go wrong?
In team play, people take this selfish attitude with them. For DPS players, Damage Dealt seems to be the only thing of interest, not whether the boss was defeated or not. As a warlock I'm happy to be using debuffs on every and any mob going, but I pay the price DPS-wise by falling down the damage meter rankings. The fact that I contributed to the victory by making the enemy weaker and helped others boost their damage doesn't seem to matter; I was 10% worse on the damage meters, therefore I should L2P and re-roll a Mage.
As for you being a Carebear, Tobold, I would say you are a lot more hardcore than most WOW players, simply by being in a raiding guild and learning all the things you have to do to get through Onyxia, MC, BWL and so on.
I'm Lv 60, and I have just about exhausted all the normal quests available to me now. If it wasn't for Burning Crusade, I would have to really think about whether I can face joining a raiding guild, or simply quit the game.
Definitely like the "Card Game" idea. All too often people in this industry get stuck running circles chasing their own vision of MMO design. They go so wrapped up in their own ideas and philosophies that they miss the big, obvious, and important things that are right there in front of them.
Having gamed for almost over 2 decades I know that these card games are one of the big, obvious, and important things to come down the pike in recent years. The failure of many MMO developers to capitalize on this phenomenon aggressively says a lot about their competence (or lack thereof).
Having gamed for almost over 2 decades I know that these card games are one of the big, obvious, and important things to come down the pike in recent years. The failure of many MMO developers to capitalize on this phenomenon aggressively says a lot about their competence (or lack thereof).
Too many topics get mixed here, but i try to illustrate my point for "challenge" in todays mmorpg. This genre always will be easy compared to other genres difficulties. Try to compare the complexity of a Doom with a Half Life 2.
The "challenge" tools in the MMORPG genre won't be advance this fast, wich for once is based on the technical limities of the client-server model, as well as the fact that the majority of players has to be able to be successfull in it. Why guilds in WoW watch out for their members to have boss-mods installed? Cause they know many people can not even watch their buff bars and react accordingly.
Take for example the boss of EQs Omens of War expansion. Two years later, even many raiding guilds have not downed this one, just cause its mechanics can not beaten easily by mudflation. There are tools right now, to increase the challenge in those games. Onyxia phases could be mixed up and its life-percentage triggers could easily differ, but people would hate it, cause it would be too hard for the majority of players to adapt. It's also really hard to design progression when you have encounters who change their difficulty.
WoW is a little different than EQ in regards to how it defines difficulty. The challenge in EQ was to even get a shot at some content and then to gain some knowledge about it. WoW on the other hand has everything instanced and anyone can get extreme detailed info on how to beat the content.
I do not foresee any real changes in how to define challenge in MMORPGs, mainly cause todays "easy mode" is successfull. No one wants to get their buts handed to them, and pay a monthly fee for this, there are different genres for that kind of experience.
The "challenge" tools in the MMORPG genre won't be advance this fast, wich for once is based on the technical limities of the client-server model, as well as the fact that the majority of players has to be able to be successfull in it. Why guilds in WoW watch out for their members to have boss-mods installed? Cause they know many people can not even watch their buff bars and react accordingly.
Take for example the boss of EQs Omens of War expansion. Two years later, even many raiding guilds have not downed this one, just cause its mechanics can not beaten easily by mudflation. There are tools right now, to increase the challenge in those games. Onyxia phases could be mixed up and its life-percentage triggers could easily differ, but people would hate it, cause it would be too hard for the majority of players to adapt. It's also really hard to design progression when you have encounters who change their difficulty.
WoW is a little different than EQ in regards to how it defines difficulty. The challenge in EQ was to even get a shot at some content and then to gain some knowledge about it. WoW on the other hand has everything instanced and anyone can get extreme detailed info on how to beat the content.
I do not foresee any real changes in how to define challenge in MMORPGs, mainly cause todays "easy mode" is successfull. No one wants to get their buts handed to them, and pay a monthly fee for this, there are different genres for that kind of experience.
WoW should really consider using the random element in more encounters, to vary the challenges that players face. Heroic mode for dungeons in BC would be an ideal place to implement this. It would eliminate the issue of simply adding stats or mobs and considering it more difficult, while leaving an 'easy mode' for players that enjoy things as they are.
So would anything which doesn't work with text input, but requires image analysis of what the enemy mob is doing.
You are correct, that is the reason I mentioned the API as basic requirement. If WoW didn't fire events or had the ability to scan the environment from code, bots wouldn't exist in WoW.
Bots in WoW exist because they are cheaper than a Chinese student. Nobody would write a program with an AI equivalent to a good chess program just to farm gold in an MMORPG.
That was not my point. Advanced bots are possibly not worth making for farming gold. It was a response to "Give me a MMORPG with tactical challenges that a bot can't play, and I'll show you who really is the more skilled player." My point in this matter is that a computergame opponent cannot be so complex that a bot cannot beat it simply because it is bound by a set of rules [set by the programmer] and computer AI and once it is known what makes this AI tick, it is possible to program a bot for it. Since the human mind holds many mysteries, only human controlled opponents can pose the challenge you seek.
You are correct, that is the reason I mentioned the API as basic requirement. If WoW didn't fire events or had the ability to scan the environment from code, bots wouldn't exist in WoW.
Bots in WoW exist because they are cheaper than a Chinese student. Nobody would write a program with an AI equivalent to a good chess program just to farm gold in an MMORPG.
That was not my point. Advanced bots are possibly not worth making for farming gold. It was a response to "Give me a MMORPG with tactical challenges that a bot can't play, and I'll show you who really is the more skilled player." My point in this matter is that a computergame opponent cannot be so complex that a bot cannot beat it simply because it is bound by a set of rules [set by the programmer] and computer AI and once it is known what makes this AI tick, it is possible to program a bot for it. Since the human mind holds many mysteries, only human controlled opponents can pose the challenge you seek.
People will generally pick what they considere the best "risk vs reward" path, if it has enough of "fun" in it. And to have the option to choose path.
The card game approach to using skills sounds interesting, can it work out to be fun in an MMORPG context, PvE or PvP? (Never played those card games)
I liked the idea presented for LOTRO before about players being able to temporarily play an "evil" mob for a bit, against other players. That could be fun if it works out well, for both sides.
Similar to that I think it would be interesting to allow players to script mob behaviour.
A mob would have a limited set of abilities, phrases to say etc. Players would be able to submit behaviour scripts, which could randomly be distributed to mobs of that type - one would not know which mob had a certain script.
Script creators would get some reward (xp, points, cash) if their script was winning against players often enough - perhaps also gain access to new mobs to script. And also possibly get some penalty if it were made too easy.
Run-time and usage of a certain submitted script would be limited in time.
Not all mobs would be player-scripted, but certain mobs or certain areas.
Sort of a bit more light-weight approach to include a full scenario editing function like Ryzom Ring, but with tie-ins to reward and risk in game. Somewhere between a mob with identical behaviour all the time and a mob with completely random behaviour, or a player.
Probably going to be a quite challenge to manage and balance with regular play.
The card game approach to using skills sounds interesting, can it work out to be fun in an MMORPG context, PvE or PvP? (Never played those card games)
I liked the idea presented for LOTRO before about players being able to temporarily play an "evil" mob for a bit, against other players. That could be fun if it works out well, for both sides.
Similar to that I think it would be interesting to allow players to script mob behaviour.
A mob would have a limited set of abilities, phrases to say etc. Players would be able to submit behaviour scripts, which could randomly be distributed to mobs of that type - one would not know which mob had a certain script.
Script creators would get some reward (xp, points, cash) if their script was winning against players often enough - perhaps also gain access to new mobs to script. And also possibly get some penalty if it were made too easy.
Run-time and usage of a certain submitted script would be limited in time.
Not all mobs would be player-scripted, but certain mobs or certain areas.
Sort of a bit more light-weight approach to include a full scenario editing function like Ryzom Ring, but with tie-ins to reward and risk in game. Somewhere between a mob with identical behaviour all the time and a mob with completely random behaviour, or a player.
Probably going to be a quite challenge to manage and balance with regular play.
I like the idea of allowing players to script mobs (i.e. create challenges) and get rewarded for making the best ones. It's hard to define what is "best" though, because what is most popular is what would be easiest for other players to beat (maximizing the reward/risk ratio).
About scripted events and randomness: WoW currently has scripts (like the locking gate room with rats in Strat), but no randomness associated with those scripts. It would be nice to inject a random element to them. Chrismue mentioned randomizing the phases of Onyxia, and I think that would be a good idea. The skilled players would all have to learn the encounter to a deeper degree than is currently required.
About scripted events and randomness: WoW currently has scripts (like the locking gate room with rats in Strat), but no randomness associated with those scripts. It would be nice to inject a random element to them. Chrismue mentioned randomizing the phases of Onyxia, and I think that would be a good idea. The skilled players would all have to learn the encounter to a deeper degree than is currently required.
I think you hit the nail on the head when you said MMO's that are "harder" are really only designed to have MOB's with higher stats, exp losses for dying, ect.
The problem in my opinion with making an MMO harder is that the games are flawed from the beginning by not having any twitch elements. FPS games are challenging because the players ability to move and react is what keeps him/her alive. Throw body armor on a MOB and the game becomes even harder by forcing players to score headshots. Until MMO developers find a way to add some twitch elements to the gameplay, WOW clones will be the industry standard.
Some of you may remember an arcade game called Time Killers, a fighting game where players had to choose whether they would try and attack the head, torso, legs, or arms. I think that an MMO with that kind of combat system may be a happy medium between a FPS style MMO, and what we have now.
The problem in my opinion with making an MMO harder is that the games are flawed from the beginning by not having any twitch elements. FPS games are challenging because the players ability to move and react is what keeps him/her alive. Throw body armor on a MOB and the game becomes even harder by forcing players to score headshots. Until MMO developers find a way to add some twitch elements to the gameplay, WOW clones will be the industry standard.
Some of you may remember an arcade game called Time Killers, a fighting game where players had to choose whether they would try and attack the head, torso, legs, or arms. I think that an MMO with that kind of combat system may be a happy medium between a FPS style MMO, and what we have now.
Great article! I agree that we need a more challenging MMORPG that requires greater skill without greater time spent.
But I don't like the idea of random abilities even though I understand your motive. A good strategy game avoids randomness. I played several CCGs and too often I could blame my loss on the random cards than my own mistakes... not good for pure strategy. Perhaps there would be a way to make any set of random 'cards' in your hand capable of winning any encounter given the right tactics, but that sounds awfully hard to balance out.
What they really need to do to make it harder is require active strategies. So instead of just reading what guild X did to beat boss Y, you'd have to figure it out on your own, at the time of the encounter.
The best way I can think of doing this is having GM controlled bosses. Let a human play it and give it human tactics. With the right training, you could have employees actively engaging with your subscribers in a pen and paper sytle encounter that would both make it much more difficult but would also make each attempt different as it would likely be a different employee in control.
But I don't like the idea of random abilities even though I understand your motive. A good strategy game avoids randomness. I played several CCGs and too often I could blame my loss on the random cards than my own mistakes... not good for pure strategy. Perhaps there would be a way to make any set of random 'cards' in your hand capable of winning any encounter given the right tactics, but that sounds awfully hard to balance out.
What they really need to do to make it harder is require active strategies. So instead of just reading what guild X did to beat boss Y, you'd have to figure it out on your own, at the time of the encounter.
The best way I can think of doing this is having GM controlled bosses. Let a human play it and give it human tactics. With the right training, you could have employees actively engaging with your subscribers in a pen and paper sytle encounter that would both make it much more difficult but would also make each attempt different as it would likely be a different employee in control.
It's hard to define what is "best" though, because what is most popular is what would be easiest for other players to beat (maximizing the reward/risk ratio).
Agreed. One thing here is to reward a scripted mob being good enough (not too easy to kill), another thing is to have some prequalification, e.g. if 200 people submit mob scripts, let them fight with a given opponent, or maybe each other and the 25 best (or some number) will be in the game for a week.
Or if your mob script is good enough against a certain opponent, it will qualify.
A good toolset for easy creation and testing would of course be needed.
Agreed. One thing here is to reward a scripted mob being good enough (not too easy to kill), another thing is to have some prequalification, e.g. if 200 people submit mob scripts, let them fight with a given opponent, or maybe each other and the 25 best (or some number) will be in the game for a week.
Or if your mob script is good enough against a certain opponent, it will qualify.
A good toolset for easy creation and testing would of course be needed.
Blizzard has already implemented random abilities in higher end mobs. e.g. the anubisath defenders, chromaggus etc. It does make the encounter more of a mental challenge because you have to remember more scripts. But it's still limited in that it's not true intelligent behavior. The Naxx encounters are more creative and mentally challenging, but again still hemmed in by the limitations of current AI and the need for predictable encounters.
What I would like to see is more encounters that aren't limited to the you need to kill the boss design. Even something where you have to protect an npc or a race from point x->y while your being attacked.
What I would like to see is more encounters that aren't limited to the you need to kill the boss design. Even something where you have to protect an npc or a race from point x->y while your being attacked.
"What I would like to see is more encounters that aren't limited to the you need to kill the boss design. Even something where you have to protect an npc or a race from point x->y while your being attacked."
From what I understand, Illidan isnt killed. Instead you have to just get in his way.
From what I understand, Illidan isnt killed. Instead you have to just get in his way.
"So the “harder” game doesn’t take more skill, it only pushes you into a more boring gameplay, taking away options from you."
Over 700aa by my necromancer kiting tables in fire. Around 500aa kiting mobs in DoD's 69.1 mission. For the most part, that's all I did. Log in, kite them, log out.
Harder, yes. More fun, no.
Over 700aa by my necromancer kiting tables in fire. Around 500aa kiting mobs in DoD's 69.1 mission. For the most part, that's all I did. Log in, kite them, log out.
Harder, yes. More fun, no.
I have pretty much the same opinion about battle difficulty. The problem is, in my opinion, that the players expect most of their fights to be trivial. Indeed, killing your hundredth or thousandth random orc is no challenge. What MMORPGs really need, in my opinion, is the capacity to create real random and intelligent creatures, and have players figure how to beat them all separately.
I think that one of the reasons that increasing the challenge" has turned into "increasing the drudgery" is that too many MMORPGs adhere blindly to the unholy triumvirate of Tank/Heal/Damage. This is a tried and trusted formula that works well and allows a co-ordinated group of players to overcome heroic challenges but it has become a rut with players being forced into preset roles with little or no variety. Why not take a risk and change the fundamental rules of the game? For example: get rid of all taunt abilities and let mobs make an intelligent choice as to which target to select. For an even more dramatic change what about eliminating in-battle healing? Imagine how changes like this would shake up game design and create new challenges.
Guild Wars is to be praised for abandoning the old paradigm in its PVE game because there is no taunt mechanism. I suspect this is done to try and more closely match the PVP experience. Guild Wars mob AI isn't great but they will run away from AOE damage and they will often seek out soft targets like monks. Another nice feature of GW is the ability to body block. Warriors trying to protect a healer can do so by physically standing in front of the monk. In my experience small mob battles in GW are much more skillful than in WOW although they are also much more frenetic. Of course there is nothing in GW to compare with WOW's awesome large scale raid encounters.
The question arises as to whether or not it would be possible to implement a raid boss encounter in a game that didn't adhere to the simple taunt/heal/damage paradigm? Without the aid of tanking and healing how could a group of players who have only a few thousand hit points overcome a semi-intelligent monster with over a million hit points? I think that with clever game design it could be done. Players could be encouraged to exploit terrain, traps, dupes, disabling skills and so on.
Guild Wars is to be praised for abandoning the old paradigm in its PVE game because there is no taunt mechanism. I suspect this is done to try and more closely match the PVP experience. Guild Wars mob AI isn't great but they will run away from AOE damage and they will often seek out soft targets like monks. Another nice feature of GW is the ability to body block. Warriors trying to protect a healer can do so by physically standing in front of the monk. In my experience small mob battles in GW are much more skillful than in WOW although they are also much more frenetic. Of course there is nothing in GW to compare with WOW's awesome large scale raid encounters.
The question arises as to whether or not it would be possible to implement a raid boss encounter in a game that didn't adhere to the simple taunt/heal/damage paradigm? Without the aid of tanking and healing how could a group of players who have only a few thousand hit points overcome a semi-intelligent monster with over a million hit points? I think that with clever game design it could be done. Players could be encouraged to exploit terrain, traps, dupes, disabling skills and so on.
One of the things I like with City of Villains is that the roles for the characters are a bit fuzzier at least , the tank/healer/dmg trinity is not a clear and obvious split.
Going back to the collective card game approach to skills, there is actually a game coming out that uses an approach like that - The Chronicles of Spellborn. (http://tcos.com/)
Going back to the collective card game approach to skills, there is actually a game coming out that uses an approach like that - The Chronicles of Spellborn. (http://tcos.com/)
Well, I think the easiest thing to do to solve this problem would be to simply make anyone able to do whatever they want, such as in (not that this game is that good, just fits the role) runescape where you can do whatever you can play any role you want, but unlike runescape, still have an existent group dynamic when fighting something that is "epic" and still allowing elements like the previously posted comment about how you could hide in shadows to improve your stealth. Actually, if a game could be created that had the combat system of Dark Messiah Might and Magic multiplayer, but still had the role playing elements, and gear elements, but also contained raids and group forced activities, single player activities, pvp, and random events such as raids by npcs on higher lvl areas or cities, but that it also left out the pure class role. Also, there would have to be a "final goal of each of the players worth trying their best at all this content. I think a large problem would be the fact that once a game becomes this involved and requires a level of skill and thinking, that the reward given would have to be so large that it would not be able to be limited to teh game world. Maybe giving the group an area that they alone own and control would be a good reward. Maybe they could capture areas and control prices for a while. However, tehre would have to be some way for them to lose it. So, in the end, I believe the best formular for a style like this would be to have the entire group(s) warring against each other to gain control of certain things and resources. However this poses the problem of characters not wanting to have to be forced to fight to gain anything. So, there would have to be a seperate area for those to solo or group against npc areas and be uncontested with other players. However, the rewards fro this would have to most likely be less than the those from pvp fighting against real oponents since those encounters would be much harder and unpredictable. So, this would turn off players unless there was some way to equal this out. Maybe characters of certain lvls would only be able to be in certain areas with others of the same lvl so that the lvl gap from player to player would still be unable to be the one commanding power for the outcome of battles or competition. Just like how a fully armored and trained warrior can kill a little armed peasant easily, a single peasant with a dagger of sorts could get the warrior at his weakest and kill him even though it would require more effort. So, another factor that would have to come into play would be diplomacy. Not like reputation or anything like that with npcs, but actual relations with other characters. The risk for deceiving a group or single player would have to be outwayed by the possible reward. So, say you will lose half you gear from a failed deception on a player and are defeated. Well, then for actually defeating them, you would gain better gear than what you have and also gain some monetary reward equal to or greater than what you would have lost, not to mentioned an area of territory that the old group that controlled it had. You also have to consider what you would lose for losing this area to yet another group. The reward for having this area and maintaining it would have to also be greater than the loss if you lose it right away without maximizing what you gained from having it. Well, if you have read this far, you probably notice that I cant really rap this up, but my point is
1. Risk and reward have to be balanced in favor of the player if they show enough skill to earn the reward
2. The skill a player shows has to be real, not always based on gear (done by lvl capped areas and random npc behavior as well a semi balanced system of skills to be allowed to each player)
3. The gear that a player does get should still be able to be obtained without competition, yet still having the gear gained by competition be better and worth the extra effort
4. By balancing the areas or pvp and pve so that you can frteely go between, but still have some limits on your character in each until you reach a certain lvl to continue
5. Make the levels allow your character to gain more spells or abilities that are actually able to add the the fun and satisfaction of using a strategy in a fight
5. Don't make it too simple. If a large number of people would like the game to be easy, then let them quit. Or better yet, allow them to not level, but still be able to gain new content and skills. However, make it so that these new skills can not be used in pvp areas as well as making them only able to advance in skills to a reasonable point of "easyness" so that if they want to gain more skills, that at some point, tehy will have to go to a "harder area" but still be very well off but challenged. Another way to do this would be havce a point system so that when ypu try and fail, it's marked as points in that category so if you are easily beating opponents, you can't just hang back to gain more stuff extremely fast and lvl this way without any challenge if you just wanted to do it that way
6. Allow players to visit areas they are qualified for all the time so they can control the game a little by themselves, but stil have a semi determined path to the final levels
7. Make lvl only a small fraction of how good you are. Base it more on skill and skills
8. Make sure the areas are strictly limited to certain lvls except for the exception of #5 but also keeping the rule of #5 so that all players when challenged against each other, have a semi equal chance due to the skill based gameplay, and their own free decisions to create a unique character ex. I am good at ranged while an enemy is good at melee. If I get flanked by a melee'er and are close up, I have less of a chance of killing them, but could if I had luck, enough skill, and the attacker was unable to use the skills they had to for sure kill me correcly (this would mean they would have to be built to for sure kill me hence the strategy of build and readiness for any situation)
9. Allo for variables in all types of cambat ex a catapult or castle wall with funneled entrances
10. Make it fun and addictive. It should be possible for anyone to do what they want to do for fun at anytime. If a player wants risk, allow them to freely go to a balanced risky area. If a player wants a more guided and just plain relaxing area to hang out, give them that area to enjoy. Also, throw some elements such as crafting, trade skills, and events such as festivals that surve a purpose or are just for fun, so that the game will have a personality to cover over the semi comlicated system I have described. Also players should be able to jump in right away or have a tutorial. The game should be approachable, but not a hand holding ride no matter what.
Really, the main things I've said have to do with the different gamer types. Hardcore, casual, and in between. All should have some productive part and be able to access it right away, but be required to apply some sort effort even if small to gain. A little idea to think of: "a dod won't try to chase a toy unless there's someone trying to hold it in front of him and pull it out of reach until the dog finally outdoes teh holder, which he will have to be able to or he'll just leave, and get the toy as a reward for his effort"
1. Risk and reward have to be balanced in favor of the player if they show enough skill to earn the reward
2. The skill a player shows has to be real, not always based on gear (done by lvl capped areas and random npc behavior as well a semi balanced system of skills to be allowed to each player)
3. The gear that a player does get should still be able to be obtained without competition, yet still having the gear gained by competition be better and worth the extra effort
4. By balancing the areas or pvp and pve so that you can frteely go between, but still have some limits on your character in each until you reach a certain lvl to continue
5. Make the levels allow your character to gain more spells or abilities that are actually able to add the the fun and satisfaction of using a strategy in a fight
5. Don't make it too simple. If a large number of people would like the game to be easy, then let them quit. Or better yet, allow them to not level, but still be able to gain new content and skills. However, make it so that these new skills can not be used in pvp areas as well as making them only able to advance in skills to a reasonable point of "easyness" so that if they want to gain more skills, that at some point, tehy will have to go to a "harder area" but still be very well off but challenged. Another way to do this would be havce a point system so that when ypu try and fail, it's marked as points in that category so if you are easily beating opponents, you can't just hang back to gain more stuff extremely fast and lvl this way without any challenge if you just wanted to do it that way
6. Allow players to visit areas they are qualified for all the time so they can control the game a little by themselves, but stil have a semi determined path to the final levels
7. Make lvl only a small fraction of how good you are. Base it more on skill and skills
8. Make sure the areas are strictly limited to certain lvls except for the exception of #5 but also keeping the rule of #5 so that all players when challenged against each other, have a semi equal chance due to the skill based gameplay, and their own free decisions to create a unique character ex. I am good at ranged while an enemy is good at melee. If I get flanked by a melee'er and are close up, I have less of a chance of killing them, but could if I had luck, enough skill, and the attacker was unable to use the skills they had to for sure kill me correcly (this would mean they would have to be built to for sure kill me hence the strategy of build and readiness for any situation)
9. Allo for variables in all types of cambat ex a catapult or castle wall with funneled entrances
10. Make it fun and addictive. It should be possible for anyone to do what they want to do for fun at anytime. If a player wants risk, allow them to freely go to a balanced risky area. If a player wants a more guided and just plain relaxing area to hang out, give them that area to enjoy. Also, throw some elements such as crafting, trade skills, and events such as festivals that surve a purpose or are just for fun, so that the game will have a personality to cover over the semi comlicated system I have described. Also players should be able to jump in right away or have a tutorial. The game should be approachable, but not a hand holding ride no matter what.
Really, the main things I've said have to do with the different gamer types. Hardcore, casual, and in between. All should have some productive part and be able to access it right away, but be required to apply some sort effort even if small to gain. A little idea to think of: "a dod won't try to chase a toy unless there's someone trying to hold it in front of him and pull it out of reach until the dog finally outdoes teh holder, which he will have to be able to or he'll just leave, and get the toy as a reward for his effort"
I'm kinda late to the game, but heres my two cents:
"So if a game is 'harder', taking away experience from you when you die, and handing it back to you slower, you automatically react by taking less risks."
First of all, you make a lot of good points, Tobold. But I want to say that experience isn't and shouldn't be the only motivating force in an mmorpg.
It is true that the harder a game is, the slower it is to level, and the greater the penalties for failing all do affect our decisions about where and how we level, effectively "pushing" us down a certain path. However, I think that, though the penalties for failing may be exceptionally high, this can be balanced by the reward for completing that particular task. "Reward" here, though, doesn't refer to experience, but item procurement, or even experience *and* the gaining of items. If some people feel the risk is too high, then let them go somewhere else that is easier, but why not reward the risk taker with commensurately better gear? This gear in turn helps them level, and carries with it a certain amount of pride.
I am of the school of thought that rewards shouldn't come easy. Thats part of the fun of accomplishing a task; having something that other people want, but either can't or won't get it. I realize that this pretty much alienates the casual gamer. I'm not sure how this should be remedied. To me, an mmorpg is the antithesis to the word "casual."
Basically, I'm saying, though a task might have a high risk associated with it in terms of experience loss or time wasted, it should be able to be balanced by gear or possibly availability of new content or both. Something that you can take away from it that other more cautious people can't. In the case of World of Warcraft, virtually the entire game is already so easy that theres no need to strive to be better, except for perhaps the "fun" of doing it. I can kill a given mob in three spells with bad gear, why should I get better gear? So I can kill a mob in 2 or 1 spell, and then to what end? Sure, raid mobs are more difficult, but raiding just to be able to raid better isn't fun.
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"So if a game is 'harder', taking away experience from you when you die, and handing it back to you slower, you automatically react by taking less risks."
First of all, you make a lot of good points, Tobold. But I want to say that experience isn't and shouldn't be the only motivating force in an mmorpg.
It is true that the harder a game is, the slower it is to level, and the greater the penalties for failing all do affect our decisions about where and how we level, effectively "pushing" us down a certain path. However, I think that, though the penalties for failing may be exceptionally high, this can be balanced by the reward for completing that particular task. "Reward" here, though, doesn't refer to experience, but item procurement, or even experience *and* the gaining of items. If some people feel the risk is too high, then let them go somewhere else that is easier, but why not reward the risk taker with commensurately better gear? This gear in turn helps them level, and carries with it a certain amount of pride.
I am of the school of thought that rewards shouldn't come easy. Thats part of the fun of accomplishing a task; having something that other people want, but either can't or won't get it. I realize that this pretty much alienates the casual gamer. I'm not sure how this should be remedied. To me, an mmorpg is the antithesis to the word "casual."
Basically, I'm saying, though a task might have a high risk associated with it in terms of experience loss or time wasted, it should be able to be balanced by gear or possibly availability of new content or both. Something that you can take away from it that other more cautious people can't. In the case of World of Warcraft, virtually the entire game is already so easy that theres no need to strive to be better, except for perhaps the "fun" of doing it. I can kill a given mob in three spells with bad gear, why should I get better gear? So I can kill a mob in 2 or 1 spell, and then to what end? Sure, raid mobs are more difficult, but raiding just to be able to raid better isn't fun.
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