Thursday, January 18, 2007
Dynamic spawn system
Once upon a time in a classic MMORPG there was a camp of 10 foozles. And as there was a quest to hunt them for foozle pelts, often players came to that camp and started killing them. Using a classic respawn system common to many MMORPGs, whenever a foozle died, that triggered a timer, and 2 minutes later the foozle would respawn. So far, so good.
Now when a player started killing foozles, and needed about 30 seconds to kill one, the population of foozles would decrease. After 30 seconds the first foozle dies, and the first foozle timer starts, and the foozle population goes down to 9. The population decreases to 8, then 7, then 6. After 2 and a half minutes the fifth foozle dies, and the first foozle respawns, keeping the foozle population constant at 6, as long as there is only one player killing them.
But if a second player turns up, the stable population goes down further, to always only 2 foozles being alive. And if even more players turn up, for some periods of time no foozle at all is in the camp. If 10 players kill the 10 foozles simultaneously, the players then stand around in the camp for 2 minutes unable to proceed before the respawn timer has completed. That is obviously not good, especially if you expect many players to hunt in the same area.
So Blizzard decided that for the Burning Crusade expansion, in the new zones that would most certainly be overcrowded with players, the classic respawn system wasn't cutting it any more, and they invented the dynamic respawn system. They aren't saying exactly how it works, but I imagine it goes a bit like this:
There is a maximum distance from which a player can attack. So if you draw a big circle around the foozle camp, with a diameter of this maximum attack range, you can count how many players are close enough to the foozles to attack them. And the more players there are in that circle, the more you shorten the respawn timer. Alternatively you could also just count the number of alive foozles, and make the respawn timer shorter when there are less of them alive. In both cases the more the foozles are camped, the faster they respawn, and there is much less of a problem of players not being able to find a single foozle to kill.
But the dynamic spawn system does have its disadvantages as well. If one player meets two foozles, and needs 30 seconds to kill the first one, then another 30 seconds to kill the second one, and due to lots of other players around the respawn timer is down to 30 seconds, by the time the second foozle dies, the first one respawns at that position. Now the combat never ends, unless the player runs away, because every time he kills a foozle, the other one reappears. Sooner or later the player is out of mana and/or health, and is cursing loudly about the stupid respawns.
So if you are playing the Burning Crusade and you wonder why you are swamped with constant respawns, that is just a side effect of the new dynamic spawn system. That can be annoying, but believe me, you'd be more annoyed if you couldn't find a mob to kill.
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There are some areas where this dynamic spawn system apparently doesn't work too, although in most cases it seems to be.
One such example is the two fel camps north and northeast of Thrallmar (the ones where apparently the fel reavers are built). These, and espescially the east one, were overcamped and underspawned to max. There were probably 30 people there when I was there, and there wasn't any sign of dynamic spawn. Everyone stood or ran around looking for mobs to kill with very few spawning. The quest was for 10 workers of some sort and the head of 1 razorguy. Tagging just any mob was really hard due to the sheer number of people needing the same quest, so I spent probably an hour doing what should have taken about 10 minutes to do usually.
One such example is the two fel camps north and northeast of Thrallmar (the ones where apparently the fel reavers are built). These, and espescially the east one, were overcamped and underspawned to max. There were probably 30 people there when I was there, and there wasn't any sign of dynamic spawn. Everyone stood or ran around looking for mobs to kill with very few spawning. The quest was for 10 workers of some sort and the head of 1 razorguy. Tagging just any mob was really hard due to the sheer number of people needing the same quest, so I spent probably an hour doing what should have taken about 10 minutes to do usually.
Is there any evidence that the new respawn algorithm is actually in place?
Try to finish the quest farming the evil plants in the draenei newbie zone. Yesterday there was about a 5:1 player-to-mob ratio at all times, complete with the familiar desperate aggro-ninjaing and aoe spamming. It didn't look any different from a standard overcamped newbie zone when a new server opens. In particular, the number of corpses was constant, where in a dynamic system you'd expect it to increase as wait times and farmer counts increased.
Every farming quest in Hellfire is exactly the same as far as I could tell, though I didn't stay long because the server lag was unbelievably bad.
Try to finish the quest farming the evil plants in the draenei newbie zone. Yesterday there was about a 5:1 player-to-mob ratio at all times, complete with the familiar desperate aggro-ninjaing and aoe spamming. It didn't look any different from a standard overcamped newbie zone when a new server opens. In particular, the number of corpses was constant, where in a dynamic system you'd expect it to increase as wait times and farmer counts increased.
Every farming quest in Hellfire is exactly the same as far as I could tell, though I didn't stay long because the server lag was unbelievably bad.
Is there anything we can do about the fade in spawning of mobs? Gah, it's so stupid that a mob just appears in thin air next to you... The mechanism is already in place to have evading mobs to return to their root spot, is it impossible or a broken gameplay mechanic to have them spawn somewhere and head to their patrol spots? It just makes absolutely no sense to me and seems a relic of the past.
Yeah, those Lasher Root plants in the Dranei lowbie area are certainly an endangered species, and it makes completing those quests a darn sight longer when nobody wants to group up, which makes absolutely no sense at all. 15 people needing to kill 10 Lashers each means 150 Lashers need to die, if nobody groups. If everyone cooperates (in a MMORPG? Shyeah, right!) then three 5-mans can be formed, and just 30 Lashers need to be killed.
I consider myself lucky to have made it out of the lowbie area within 2 hours. I also could not believe people in the Earth Elemental area for the Shammy quest were extremely reluctant to group. All you needed to kill were 4 Elementals, but to me it looked as though there were only 4 spawnings spots for them. I (rudely) spammed invites (while /saying It only makes sense to group for this quest) and managed to get a 5-man together. I actually completed the quest w/o personally killing a single Elemental. It wasn't for lack of trying, they had so many people attacking them that they died before I could get close enough to cast Lightning Bolt.
I consider myself lucky to have made it out of the lowbie area within 2 hours. I also could not believe people in the Earth Elemental area for the Shammy quest were extremely reluctant to group. All you needed to kill were 4 Elementals, but to me it looked as though there were only 4 spawnings spots for them. I (rudely) spammed invites (while /saying It only makes sense to group for this quest) and managed to get a 5-man together. I actually completed the quest w/o personally killing a single Elemental. It wasn't for lack of trying, they had so many people attacking them that they died before I could get close enough to cast Lightning Bolt.
I can confirm that several Orc spawn points (e.g. first one for the first Alliance quest) are dynamic. I think this is a great idea. Also, several "drop" items (some badges from orcs) appear to drop more often if many players are around, but I don't have enough statistical data to prove that.
In one point, though Tobold, I have a different view:
Now the combat never ends, unless the player runs away, because every time he kills a foozle, the other one reappears. Sooner or later the player is out of mana and/or health, and is cursing loudly about the stupid respawns.
This is not the case, Blizzard has programmed the foes to appear with a very generous "no-attack" timer. I have experienced this several times. The foe spawn right next to you and the tooltip from MobInfo (great addon) shows that the foe is "fleeing" (translation). So, you have a dynamic spawnpoint plus non-aggroing foes for at least 3-6 seconds.
I have to agree to the poster that the dynamic spawn points don't work all the time, the one area with the 10 servants and the large razorguy is not only totally overcrowded but also spawns useless succubus types of foes. I ended up ninjainviting various people, made a quick chat line "just to speed things up" and everyone was happy. Quest completed in 1/5th of the time I would think it would take without forced grouping. Maybe this is deliberate by Blizzard to motivate people to join a group?
Still, the starting grounds are heavily overcrowded, this is even worse than in the beginning of WoW.
In one point, though Tobold, I have a different view:
Now the combat never ends, unless the player runs away, because every time he kills a foozle, the other one reappears. Sooner or later the player is out of mana and/or health, and is cursing loudly about the stupid respawns.
This is not the case, Blizzard has programmed the foes to appear with a very generous "no-attack" timer. I have experienced this several times. The foe spawn right next to you and the tooltip from MobInfo (great addon) shows that the foe is "fleeing" (translation). So, you have a dynamic spawnpoint plus non-aggroing foes for at least 3-6 seconds.
I have to agree to the poster that the dynamic spawn points don't work all the time, the one area with the 10 servants and the large razorguy is not only totally overcrowded but also spawns useless succubus types of foes. I ended up ninjainviting various people, made a quick chat line "just to speed things up" and everyone was happy. Quest completed in 1/5th of the time I would think it would take without forced grouping. Maybe this is deliberate by Blizzard to motivate people to join a group?
Still, the starting grounds are heavily overcrowded, this is even worse than in the beginning of WoW.
I just left the Arcane tree for Frost and I thought I was just running out of mana too fast from the lost intellect.
I guess it's that respawn timer, which did seem a bit extreme. Thanks for the tip.
I guess it's that respawn timer, which did seem a bit extreme. Thanks for the tip.
Now the combat never ends, unless the player runs away, because every time he kills a foozle, the other one reappears. Sooner or later the player is out of mana and/or health, and is cursing loudly about the stupid respawns.
I mentioned this in reply to yesterdays "My first day in Burning Crusade" entry.
The 3-6 second grace period works fine for regular mobs, but my personal experience was with the orc summoners. I can't remember the name of the village, but it was the quest to obtain 12 Cursed Talisman's.
3-6 seconds is not enough if you have the orc to kill and the 2-6 summoned skeletons to kill as well. Especially if you don't have any AoE abilities. It's very easy to be suddenly overwhelmed.
I did the quest with my druid and got caught in a continuous combat circle until dead on more than one occasion. And yes... I was screaming bloody murder.
However, having tried to quest in over populated areas where the re-spawn system isn't as efficient, I know which I prefer. It takes a lot longer to try and kill the same 10 mobs as twenty other people, than to run back to your corpse every now and then.
I mentioned this in reply to yesterdays "My first day in Burning Crusade" entry.
The 3-6 second grace period works fine for regular mobs, but my personal experience was with the orc summoners. I can't remember the name of the village, but it was the quest to obtain 12 Cursed Talisman's.
3-6 seconds is not enough if you have the orc to kill and the 2-6 summoned skeletons to kill as well. Especially if you don't have any AoE abilities. It's very easy to be suddenly overwhelmed.
I did the quest with my druid and got caught in a continuous combat circle until dead on more than one occasion. And yes... I was screaming bloody murder.
However, having tried to quest in over populated areas where the re-spawn system isn't as efficient, I know which I prefer. It takes a lot longer to try and kill the same 10 mobs as twenty other people, than to run back to your corpse every now and then.
All these problems should eventually settle down. Who wants to play a game where 20 players are trying to kill 10 mobs? I certainly don't, but I can see that this is only going to be a short-term annoyance.
Meanwhile, how well you can cope with the respawns in Hellfire Pen comes down to how well your character is equipped.
That may sound like a no-brainer, but there is a large discrepancy in how much damage current Lv60s can take and dish out, purely based on their gear.
I had no problem whatsoever killing the Orcs for the Beads. I found I could take on 3 or 4 Lv 61/Lv 62 mobs without ever being in danger of dying.
Also, some of the quests had a 'Needs 2 players' tip on them, but I was not only capable of killing the target of such a quest, but also various adds that happened to be nearby.
For the player who has come straight from Azeroth at Lv 58 or so, and is not equipped with T1 or T2 gear, they may find these stages a lot harder, and certainly the first Instance should be a lot more of a challenge to new players than the 'easy' challenge most of us are finding it to be currently, simply because we have spent days and days at lv 60 grinding equipment with good stats.
Meanwhile, how well you can cope with the respawns in Hellfire Pen comes down to how well your character is equipped.
That may sound like a no-brainer, but there is a large discrepancy in how much damage current Lv60s can take and dish out, purely based on their gear.
I had no problem whatsoever killing the Orcs for the Beads. I found I could take on 3 or 4 Lv 61/Lv 62 mobs without ever being in danger of dying.
Also, some of the quests had a 'Needs 2 players' tip on them, but I was not only capable of killing the target of such a quest, but also various adds that happened to be nearby.
For the player who has come straight from Azeroth at Lv 58 or so, and is not equipped with T1 or T2 gear, they may find these stages a lot harder, and certainly the first Instance should be a lot more of a challenge to new players than the 'easy' challenge most of us are finding it to be currently, simply because we have spent days and days at lv 60 grinding equipment with good stats.
My question is what will the settings be a few months from now.
I have a few 60's on various servers (as most people do by this point)and decided to join a new server and see the new content this way.
the newbie zones are a little full, but nothing to annoying.
im wondering about this dynamic spawning when there will be only a few needing to complete the question instead of hundreds? will you be overwhelmed my mobs?
I have a few 60's on various servers (as most people do by this point)and decided to join a new server and see the new content this way.
the newbie zones are a little full, but nothing to annoying.
im wondering about this dynamic spawning when there will be only a few needing to complete the question instead of hundreds? will you be overwhelmed my mobs?
My druid loves this system! He can kill one with mana spells, innervate, bear form, kill two more, pop out of bear, heal, kill another, back to bear, kill 2 more, heal in bear, back out of bear, heal. (innervate is 1-2 minutes away).... Typically... i was downing 6 or 7 foozles... maybe down 1 health or mana pot before I looked for a breather space... and that's easy too... cat form, stealth away. sit down and shadowmeld while I eat the last of my fruit cake. I hope to keep up with the pack in leveling and get to use this for all my foozle killing.
The caster type orcs tend to spawn with immediate agro. This also could be due to lag. Hellfire was very laggy last night, and made me glad I was on my priest and not my lock. My lock's health constantly yo-yo's, while on my priest I tend to stay 3/4th+. I'd cast, and the animation would start but not finish for several seconds later.
Annoying, but after a while, you adjust.
Annoying, but after a while, you adjust.
I have absolutely no problem with a neverending stream of orcs to kill. When I can't take it anymore I run away and eat. Death is so trivial in WoW that even if I do die it doesn't really matter. So much better than standing around with the same 10 people trying to be the first to tag a new spawn.
"[T]he one area with the 10 servants and the large razorguy is not only totally overcrowded but also spawns useless succubus types of foes. "
Drugh
Actually, what you're running into is the Spawn Table for that area. Kill Ten Rats had a GREAT explanation of the concept a couple of months ago.
Drugh
Actually, what you're running into is the Spawn Table for that area. Kill Ten Rats had a GREAT explanation of the concept a couple of months ago.
I don't think this is any different from what Blizzard was already doing in the level 1-6 areas. Bliz sets a minimum population of boars, or skels, or whatever -- if the number alive drops below that minimum another spawns with no respawn timer.
Try exhausting all the wolves in the human newb area...it can't be done.
Try exhausting all the wolves in the human newb area...it can't be done.
Yeah, normally you have that 'grace period' after something spawns before it aggros, but not the fel orcs (bonechewers?) by Thrallmar and not the unyielding undead down by Zeth'Gor. They were aggroing immediately, for whatever reason.
Actually, what you're running into is the Spawn Table for that area. Kill Ten Rats had a GREAT explanation of the concept a couple of months ago.
Nah, I know about how spawn tables work, and that wasn't the case. There is literally nothing spawning in those camps, and 10-30 players just standing around waiting to ninja-tag the one that spawns every 20 seconds or so.
Actually, what you're running into is the Spawn Table for that area. Kill Ten Rats had a GREAT explanation of the concept a couple of months ago.
Nah, I know about how spawn tables work, and that wasn't the case. There is literally nothing spawning in those camps, and 10-30 players just standing around waiting to ninja-tag the one that spawns every 20 seconds or so.
I have solved that problem by standing on the edge of the respawn zone and pulling them with my gun before taking them down. Now, if I'm grouped with say a mage or rogue, then we kill something in 10 seconds and we're golden the whole time.
It's scary how many people wrote me after that article to tell me they had no idea there was such a thing as as spawn table...
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