Tuesday, January 09, 2007
To instance or not to instance
In my pre-BC WoW slump I tested two other MMOGs: Dungeons & Dragons Online and Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. And what is interesting about that is that these two are on the opposite extremes of the scale for how many instances a MMORPG should have: In DDO every mob encounter is instanced, while in Vanguard there are no instances at all. So lets have a look at the advantages and disadvantages of instances.
The big advantage of instances is that it avoids food fights. If you want to have big boss mobs in your game, which need a raid effort to kill, but also drop the best loot, there is a good chance that several guilds want to kill that boss mob at the same time. Imagine Onyxia in World of Warcraft was not an instanced encounter, but a mob that respawned every 2 hours. What guild gets to raid Onyxia on Friday night or Sunday afternoon? And how do you get a raid together for Tuesday morning? Without instances either there is lot of shouting about "kill-stealing", or guilds start organizing some sort of raid calendar, which also involves a lot of fighting and is necessarily imperfect. The bigger the game, the less likely is it that people can organize some sort of fair distribution of who gets to raid the boss mob when. I never got to kill the world boss mobs in WoW. Not that my guild wouldn't be able to kill one, but with some uber guilds systematically hunting the world bosses down, the second tier of guilds never even gets a chance to try.
Instances allow for scripted adventures, for single players or groups. DDO is full of these, dungeons where you have to pull levers at one place to open a door at another place. Obviously that is impossible if strangers are in the same dungeon with you. If you have to set several levers into a certain position, by the time you reach the door, somebody else touched the lever and spoiled your effort. Again a World of Warcraft example: Imagine your guild erased all the runes and just killed Majordomo in Molten Core, which makes Ragnaros appear in a different location, and some other guild is camping that location and kills Ragnaros, getting the best loot while avoiding most of the work. Triggers don't work well in non-instanced dungeons and encounters.
But instances also have disadvantages: You never meet anyone in them. Other players are both the best and the worst feature of MMOGs. Yesterday I played Vanguard, where there are no instances, and my level 8 gnome cleric went into a dungeon called the library for doing a second round of quests there. On the way I met another player advancing through the caves towards the library, and he invited me. We met more players in the library, and invited them too, until we had a full group. That allowed us to even kill the level 10 library boss mob, and finish all the quests for all group members. Meeting other players in situations like these can be lots of fun, and you are likely to make new friends, which is one of the key attractions of a MMOG.
Meeting another player in the same non-instanced dungeon is probably the best looking-for-group system you can think of. In an instance there is always a problem if some players have to leave half-way through the dungeon. If there are no instances, you can still look around and pick up some other players, making groups more dynamic. You can play together without being forced to stick together for a certain time.
If I had to choose between Vanguard and DDO, just on the base of the use of instances, I'd chose the non-instanced Vanguard. DDO just feels too lonely, too much like a single-player game. But extremes are rarely the best solution, so if you throw WoW into the equation, with its limited use of instances, you get a lot closer to the optimum. Non-instanced dungeons work perfectly as long as the boss mobs only need to be killed for a quest, not for loot, and repeatedly killing them makes no sense. If a specific mob spawning deep down in a dungeon drops some good loot, you automatically get people camping it. You just don't want a group fighting all the way through a hard dungeon like Lower Guk and finding that the Frenzied Ghoul end boss with the good loot (Flowing Black Silk Sash) is perma-camped by some higher level other player, or worse, a gold farmer bot.
I'm not yet quite sure how Vanguard handles this, but the quest boss end mob of the library didn't drop anything, he is just there for the quest, which is good. I did encounter a "named" flying book mob in the library, which dropped a magical necklace. But I have no idea how "campable" these Vanguard named mobs with the phat loot are. I only just hit level 9, so I can't possibly say how this continues. I'm okay with non-instanced dungeons where most of your reward comes in the form of quest rewards. But dungeons like in WoW, where the dungeon mobs drop significantly better loot than the overland mobs, and especially raid dungeons, I can't imagine working without them being instanced. Working with other players towards a common goal is great. Having to compete with other players about who gets to kill what phat loot mob is a lot less pleasant, and can lead to some seriously bad situations, like intentional trains to wipe out the competition. A limited use of instances is probably the best solution.
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I can see non-instanced bosses working on low populated servers (maybe Vanguard will work in this way if it isn't so popular), but once the server gets crowded, you can't avoid other players, no matter what you are doing.
It's often the case in WOW that you reach your quest target only to find they are already dead, and you have to wait around for respawns.
It's often the case in WOW that you reach your quest target only to find they are already dead, and you have to wait around for respawns.
IMO, WoW does a pretty decent job of covering the full spectrum in this regard.
There are actually non-instanced elite 'dungeons' (or the equivalent) scattered throughout Azeroth; on the Horde side beginning with the Pyrewood Village and continuing up through places like The Den and Dun Garok all the way up to that elite troll area in the Hinterlands (and more). Ironically, I've run both The Den and Dun Garok in the manner Tobold described - chanced to 'fall into' a pick-up group with people doing the same quests, which was quite fun.
And many of the non-elite quest areas have a 'dungeon feel', whether just being a tough place to visit at the level, like Bael Modan in the southern Barrens, or the harpy cave and Grimtotem compound in Thousand Needles, and later into insect lairs and pirate camps and ruins habited by trolls or undead, and so on (even into underwater into shipwrecks and ruins).
So a person can have a very full game experience in WoW leveling to 60 and never set foot in an instance (just as one can completely ignore the PvP battlegrounds). Obviously, some of the best loot is concentrated in the instances, both from drops and quests, but one can still play the game for quite a while, and derive great enjoyment, without instance loot. Additionally, loot can be obtained from the AH and enhanced with enchantments.
So I think that WoW strikes a good medium; instances (like PvP battlegrounds) are advertised and encouraged through quests, but not required.
There are actually non-instanced elite 'dungeons' (or the equivalent) scattered throughout Azeroth; on the Horde side beginning with the Pyrewood Village and continuing up through places like The Den and Dun Garok all the way up to that elite troll area in the Hinterlands (and more). Ironically, I've run both The Den and Dun Garok in the manner Tobold described - chanced to 'fall into' a pick-up group with people doing the same quests, which was quite fun.
And many of the non-elite quest areas have a 'dungeon feel', whether just being a tough place to visit at the level, like Bael Modan in the southern Barrens, or the harpy cave and Grimtotem compound in Thousand Needles, and later into insect lairs and pirate camps and ruins habited by trolls or undead, and so on (even into underwater into shipwrecks and ruins).
So a person can have a very full game experience in WoW leveling to 60 and never set foot in an instance (just as one can completely ignore the PvP battlegrounds). Obviously, some of the best loot is concentrated in the instances, both from drops and quests, but one can still play the game for quite a while, and derive great enjoyment, without instance loot. Additionally, loot can be obtained from the AH and enhanced with enchantments.
So I think that WoW strikes a good medium; instances (like PvP battlegrounds) are advertised and encouraged through quests, but not required.
If you had to compare the landscape of WoW to vanguard, from what ive heard vanguard is much larger scale. Instancing on vanguard would really be a harmful boon if any advantage at all considering how dynamically the chars interact on "world" servers. WoW has a very structured faction vs faction setup where you can go and PK ur best buddy in alliance just because you are also alliance. I think vanguard is a little bit more geared towards someone who doesnt want all that pre-defined structure and limitation.
The main quest line in the barbarian (Varithari?) area culminates in killing the "Green Witch" at the bottom of the first real dungeon in the region. We assembled a team to do the quest, headed down there, and were stymied by a group camped out killing her over and over for drops.
That pretty much killed any desire I might have had to buy this game.
That pretty much killed any desire I might have had to buy this game.
I love reviews! They save me a lot of time, effort, and money. Kudos to you all!
You know, to me, that 'camping' story is a *really* good reason to not buy Vanguard - not so much from a play perspective, but from a design prospective.
I mean, let's face it -- camping bosses is a longstanding, well-known problem in MMO. So a player has the right to expect that the designers will solve that problem!
And it's not hard to solve - for example, there are some obvious solutions, such as:
- Instancing
- Diminishing returns, such as setting the boss to only drop loot & give XP on the first kill, or on a long timer
So IMO, if you're in beta and haven't taken care of one of the most basic of MMO problems, that's bad design from the drawing board.
And such an overt case of bad design is enough to turn me off of a game - there are too many alternatives out there in the MMO genre. Competition means that a player doesn’t have to tolerate campers in Vanguard, or wait around for Vanguard patches to remedy the problem - he or she will try out the competitor's product instead.
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You know, to me, that 'camping' story is a *really* good reason to not buy Vanguard - not so much from a play perspective, but from a design prospective.
I mean, let's face it -- camping bosses is a longstanding, well-known problem in MMO. So a player has the right to expect that the designers will solve that problem!
And it's not hard to solve - for example, there are some obvious solutions, such as:
- Instancing
- Diminishing returns, such as setting the boss to only drop loot & give XP on the first kill, or on a long timer
So IMO, if you're in beta and haven't taken care of one of the most basic of MMO problems, that's bad design from the drawing board.
And such an overt case of bad design is enough to turn me off of a game - there are too many alternatives out there in the MMO genre. Competition means that a player doesn’t have to tolerate campers in Vanguard, or wait around for Vanguard patches to remedy the problem - he or she will try out the competitor's product instead.
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