Sunday, March 25, 2007
LotRO monster play - the new way to PvP
I mentioned before that having both PvE and PvP in a game causes problems, because what constitutes "class balance" for PvE and for PvP is so very different, and it is impossible to balance both at the same time. Lord of the Rings Online cleverly avoids that problem by never letting player *characters* fight each other. But if you want to do PvP, you can do so, you just have to first transform into a monster. So PvP becomes player versus player-controlled-monster, giving you all the advantages of being able to fight intelligent opponents, without all the disadvantages of classic PvP. Brilliant!
Yesterday I tried monster play out for the first time in the LotRO beta. I traveled to Bree, and found the Fel Scrying Pool in the south-west of that town. Clicking on that I was given the choice of starting monster play, or exchanging the destiny points I had won in monster play for some temporary buff. After choosing monster play, I was presented with 5 options of what kind of monster I would like to play: a spider, a wolf, or three different kinds of orc. I went for the spider, which turned out to be not the easiest monster class, but I managed.
The monster you create has level 50, and remains level 50, you can't "level it up". But you can increase its stats and even gain new abilities by spending destiny points. And these stay with your monster, so you can come back repeatedly to the same monster and play it to increase its power. You can have 1 monster of each class stored, and that is per character, so if you want more, you'd just need to level another character to 10, the lowest level at which monster play is allowed.
Now this being the beta, and there being no level 50 player characters around, I couldn't really test the PvP. But that doesn't mean there is nothing to do in the Ettenmoors, the PvP zone. There are numerous PvE, or should I say MvE, quests that have you kill mobs or NPC guards. Each quest rewards you with some destiny points. But it quickly becomes obvious that the most points could be gained in a raid on one of the numerous castles on the map. That is where most of the PvP action will take place later. The castles are defended by NPC guards, but with players from both sides around it would be more fun.
Normally MMORPG worlds are rather static, whatever you do changes back to its original state after a few minutes. But I can see how the Ettenmoors will develop over time starting from release of the game. Because players can play a monster starting from level 10, but need to be level 50 to fight against those monsters, the Ettenmoors will be firmly in monster hand for the first couple of months of the game. Then gradually the balance will shift, the "free people" will have some first successful raids, and again many months later the balance will have shifted to something where both sides have equal chance of winning. So in effect the character of the zone will change with time, which is interesting.
Back into the normal game, I was able to spend my gained destiny points for buffs. There is a long list of buffs you can choose from, starting from gaining more xp, to having more morale and power, to faster regeneration. Most buffs seem to last for 30 minutes, which given the fact that you can only get them in Bree and then still have to travel to whereever you want to quest is a bit short in my opinion. But nevertheless the option to spend destiny points either on your monster or on your real character is nice.
Lord of the Rings Online is by no means "a PvP game". There won't be much real PvP action before enough people hit the level cap of 50. But at that point the Ettenmoors could become as good as the DAoC RvR zones, with raids taking and re-taking castles. I like it.
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I'm skeptical that LOTRO PVP will be well received, but I'm glad to see Turbine isn't hamstringing class balance, by trying to merge the two play styles, on the same servers.
On a side note; have you checked out Rome Rising? I think it's got great dark horse potential, though I'm probably projecting, as so little is know about it.
On a side note; have you checked out Rome Rising? I think it's got great dark horse potential, though I'm probably projecting, as so little is know about it.
Just to clarify, you can visit the PvP area as a player from level 40. And there are no shortage of level 50 players in beta.
Non related question.
Is the probable time necessary to hit level 50 about the same as hitting that same level in WoW?
Is the probable time necessary to hit level 50 about the same as hitting that same level in WoW?
As a side note, Destiny points can be spent in the field now. There is a destiny "wallet" button you can use to buy the buffs anywhere (but not in combat).
Yeah I was going to say what the anon above just did. You can spend destiny points to enable those buffs at any time. As far as I can tell the only benefit of going to the Fel Scrying Pool is to start Monster Play.
Hmmm, I missed that destiny wallet button. Is that on the main character window with the paper doll?
Umm...
How does this solve the "conflict" between PVE and PvP balance? For the PVP to be fun all normal classes should be ok versus the monster classes. For example - a thief could be better againts the player controlled monsters than a minstrel while still be equal in PVE.
How does this solve the "conflict" between PVE and PvP balance? For the PVP to be fun all normal classes should be ok versus the monster classes. For example - a thief could be better againts the player controlled monsters than a minstrel while still be equal in PVE.
How does this solve the "conflict" between PVE and PvP balance? For the PVP to be fun all normal classes should be ok versus the monster classes. For example - a thief could be better againts the player controlled monsters than a minstrel while still be equal in PVE.
Why should a thief (burglar) be better against a player controlled monster than against a computer controlled monster? In a one-on-one fight I don't see the difference. In a group fight of course against player controlled monsters things like taunt don't work. But the more you balance classes for PvE, the better balanced against player monsters they are as well.
In any case you don't have the problem that you'd need to balance classes against *each other*. The burglar will never fight the minstrel. If they both fight the same monster and one is a bit more successful than the other, that doesn't mean the other isn't having fun. But if all the PvP you have is one fighting the other, and the other is losing most of the time, you have a big problem. Just look at the WoW battlegrounds and arenas. The class mix found there is very different from the class mix found in the rest of the game, because some classes just got fed up being beaten all the time. Or didn't want to have to respec every time they switch from PvP to group PvE.
Why should a thief (burglar) be better against a player controlled monster than against a computer controlled monster? In a one-on-one fight I don't see the difference. In a group fight of course against player controlled monsters things like taunt don't work. But the more you balance classes for PvE, the better balanced against player monsters they are as well.
In any case you don't have the problem that you'd need to balance classes against *each other*. The burglar will never fight the minstrel. If they both fight the same monster and one is a bit more successful than the other, that doesn't mean the other isn't having fun. But if all the PvP you have is one fighting the other, and the other is losing most of the time, you have a big problem. Just look at the WoW battlegrounds and arenas. The class mix found there is very different from the class mix found in the rest of the game, because some classes just got fed up being beaten all the time. Or didn't want to have to respec every time they switch from PvP to group PvE.
What you have in LotRO PvP is basically two player factions. One does PVE and PVP, one is almost pure PVP. You stated "in-matter-of-fact" fashion this will solve the conflict between PVE and PvP balancing. I fail to see how this is so selfevidently true.
Sure, since monsters can only do PvP, the variables are fewer, but not eliminated, because the default player faction has to be balanced for both PVE and PvP. The point of my burglar/minstrel example was that due differences of PVE and PvP gameplay (which is basis of your claim for LotRO PvP balance :) ) classes balanced for PVE are not neccessarily so for PvP. The fact they won't fight each other is irrelevant.
"Why should a thief (burglar) be better against a player controlled monster than against a computer controlled monster?"
How should I know? I pulled random class names to make a point (see above), not to discuss LotRO mechanics (which i don't know) in detal.
By the way, are player monsters the same as AI monsters? If so, my experience with WoW mobs leads me to conclude monsters will have far, far, fewer abilities than default player classes. That would make them dull to play and at disadvantage to default classes. That is a PvP disbalance! You do write destiny points can be used to develop and customise monsters. That leads me to believe they are more like actual classes. In both cases their looks is not relevant when discussing game balance. :)
Note I don't really know anything about LotRO. I'm just going by what is written here. :)
ps. How you do quote in italics?
Sure, since monsters can only do PvP, the variables are fewer, but not eliminated, because the default player faction has to be balanced for both PVE and PvP. The point of my burglar/minstrel example was that due differences of PVE and PvP gameplay (which is basis of your claim for LotRO PvP balance :) ) classes balanced for PVE are not neccessarily so for PvP. The fact they won't fight each other is irrelevant.
"Why should a thief (burglar) be better against a player controlled monster than against a computer controlled monster?"
How should I know? I pulled random class names to make a point (see above), not to discuss LotRO mechanics (which i don't know) in detal.
By the way, are player monsters the same as AI monsters? If so, my experience with WoW mobs leads me to conclude monsters will have far, far, fewer abilities than default player classes. That would make them dull to play and at disadvantage to default classes. That is a PvP disbalance! You do write destiny points can be used to develop and customise monsters. That leads me to believe they are more like actual classes. In both cases their looks is not relevant when discussing game balance. :)
Note I don't really know anything about LotRO. I'm just going by what is written here. :)
ps. How you do quote in italics?
This sounds to me like a cheep attempt to put PvP into a game that is primarly PvE. The whole point of PvP for me being able to PvP with your character. The character you spent months leveling, possibly years getting gear...etc... Not to play some premade character.
I'm not versed on LotR lure, but how does this fit into lure? I thought there really wasn't any magic in LotR, so how can you turn your self into a monster?
I'm not versed on LotR lure, but how does this fit into lure? I thought there really wasn't any magic in LotR, so how can you turn your self into a monster?
I think it will be interesting to see just how powerful monster players will become.
Instead of dropping Ragnaros, perhaps players will wait for another PVP player to log on with their "Epic" monster.
Instead of dropping Ragnaros, perhaps players will wait for another PVP player to log on with their "Epic" monster.
crazyflanger... it's LORE, man. L-O-R-E.
As for how it fits into the lore, it doesn't. The turning into a monster isn't handled that way. The same way "creating a character" doesn't fit into the LORE.
As for how it fits into the lore, it doesn't. The turning into a monster isn't handled that way. The same way "creating a character" doesn't fit into the LORE.
Damn the spelling police got me, arg it hurts.
Creating a charater doesn't need lore. Thats the start of the game. If anything your races background story will be your lore, but turning your character into a monster needs some explanation.....Why not just have two seperate factions? You can call the regular people alliance and you can call the monsters horde.....oh wait.....
Creating a charater doesn't need lore. Thats the start of the game. If anything your races background story will be your lore, but turning your character into a monster needs some explanation.....Why not just have two seperate factions? You can call the regular people alliance and you can call the monsters horde.....oh wait.....
True colors showing, CF.
The reasons players cannot play a full campaign as minions in Sauron's army has been explained so many times over, it's not worth repeating again here.
And yet, Turbine wanted PvP in their game, which is a smart business decision, and you cannot have Free Peoples fighting each other either. Tell me then, oh great crazyflanger, how you would design the system, while holding in regard the LORE of a LICENSED IP, that you must adhere to?
This is where Turbine's solution comes in, and it works.
The reasons players cannot play a full campaign as minions in Sauron's army has been explained so many times over, it's not worth repeating again here.
And yet, Turbine wanted PvP in their game, which is a smart business decision, and you cannot have Free Peoples fighting each other either. Tell me then, oh great crazyflanger, how you would design the system, while holding in regard the LORE of a LICENSED IP, that you must adhere to?
This is where Turbine's solution comes in, and it works.
Eh, maybe I'm too late to this thread, but I see three different reasons to think this is better for balance.
First, you can do more of the heavy lifting on the monster side. If say mins are getting killed too easily you can make monsters more susceptible to their skills rather than having to give them skills that disrupt the PVP balance.
Second, the two sides aren't balanced anyway; monsters are individually weaker since there are likely to be more of them playing. Seems like 2 freep vs. 3 creep is about a fair matchup based on the boards. Since everyone can play both, hopefully servers will self-balance so the PVMP is interesting (and so each side can get credit for retaking keeps, no small thing). Any increasing skew in favor of one side or the other will just reflect in altered population numbers. I'd expect the hardcore PVPers to consistently take the underdog side.
Finally, there's the fact that the whole area is designed around raiding groups fighting. This means the balance should be closer to what the devs have to think about in PVE than if things had to be balanced around 5v5 arenas.
First, you can do more of the heavy lifting on the monster side. If say mins are getting killed too easily you can make monsters more susceptible to their skills rather than having to give them skills that disrupt the PVP balance.
Second, the two sides aren't balanced anyway; monsters are individually weaker since there are likely to be more of them playing. Seems like 2 freep vs. 3 creep is about a fair matchup based on the boards. Since everyone can play both, hopefully servers will self-balance so the PVMP is interesting (and so each side can get credit for retaking keeps, no small thing). Any increasing skew in favor of one side or the other will just reflect in altered population numbers. I'd expect the hardcore PVPers to consistently take the underdog side.
Finally, there's the fact that the whole area is designed around raiding groups fighting. This means the balance should be closer to what the devs have to think about in PVE than if things had to be balanced around 5v5 arenas.
to be honest i normaly find people that cant do proper pvp on mmo's clearly dont enjoy it, i feel as though its not part of the lore or whatever, turbine should start thinking more about a good playable game with good points in all areas of the game, than a lore :S, and put some really cool pvp in here. im partly saying this because i used to play wow, and was good at it, having a few lvl 70 characters. and waht made that game so enjoyed able was the compatition between the 2 factions in pvp and raids.
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