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Monday, March 05, 2007
My World of Warcraft crisis
I'm having my personal World of Warcraft crisis, triggered by failing ten Black Morass runs in a row. It is not that I don't believe I'll ever make it; one day I'll have the right combination of classes, skills, and luck to get that damn key to Karazhan. But the frustration makes me doubt the whole WoW end-game concept of repeatedly ramming your head against a brick wall, until that wall finally breaks and gives you access to the next brick wall. I am agitated, frustrated, and annoyed, and wonder why I should play a game that does that to me, when all I want is a game that entertains and relaxes me.
The Black Morass is hard, but not impossible. I tried it with many different groups. About half of the groups just had the wrong composition, which is easily noticed by the group not being able to close one portal before the next one opens, which automatically leads to you being overwhelmed after some time. There are 18 fights in a row, you just need a few seconds break between them to drink and regain mana, because mana potions are on a too long cooldown. One mistake or piece of bad luck in that series and you can restart from zero. I had a couple of groups who would have been able to win this event, but there I stumbled on different manifestations of bad luck and a few bugs that Blizzard is responsible for. I've had one group member fall through the world to his death, had two mobs bugged on perma-evade destroying Medivh's shield, one time the second boss resetting to full health after being nearly dead, and once a lost internet connection. And of course many, many cases of people having to leave after one wipe or two, forcing me to redo it with people that first needed to learn the encounter. And that was all with guild groups, I can't even imagine how horrible Black Morass would be with a pickup-group. Even the guilds most dedicated hardcore players reported needing 4 to 5 attempts before getting their Karazhan key.
The point is that this shouldn't be so hard. This isn't the key to Mount Hyjal. Karazhan is just the first 10-man raid instance, so this is the equivalent of getting the key for UBRS. Sure, getting the key to UBRS wasn't trivial, but it was a lot easier than Black Morass, and only one person in the 10-man raid needed the key. For Karazhan everybody needs the key. Getting the key to Molten Core and Onyxia was easier than this.
When Blizzard announced that they would lower the number of players in a raid, and make smaller dungeons, I assumed that the level 70 end-game would be more accessible for the average player than the hard to organize huge 40-man raids of the level 60 end-game. I was wrong. Blizzard errected a number of walls in the form of attunements and keys that keep the average players out of raid dungeons. And it turns out that smaller raids mean that less members of a guild get to raid each evening. You simply can't take the same 40 people that did a MC run and split them into 4 viable Karazhan groups. You just wouldn't take people like dps warriors or feral druids (post-nerf) into Karazhan.
I still remember my very first World of Warcraft instance, doing Ragefire Chasm in a group consisting of 5 shamans. That was fun, because in spite of being far from an ideal group composition, it still worked. The harder dungeons get, the smaller becomes the selection of guild compositions that still work, and talent builds that still work, until you end up with groups that all fall into the same boring template. And anyone who doesn't want to comply with that same boring template is automatically excluded. And this is where World of Warcraft now is with the Burning Crusade, a huge selection of different dungeons, only accessible by a small selection of the player base. If you read the comments on my post yesterday about the Black Morass, you find lots of helpful hints saying you *need* this or that class with exactly this or that talent spec. And nobody even notices any more what is wrong with that very idea of needing specific classes and builds.
And that is just the beginning of the new raid circuit. Apparently the first Karazhan bosses are easier than Black Morass, but then the raid hits another wall, and wipes on the same boss many times, until finally beating him after a few weeks and moving to the next boss. Rinse, lather, repeat. The repeated failure and frustration is built into the system, and necessary to stretch the content to last for a year. But hey, if you got one month supply of coffee, adding enough water to it for it to last one year isn't the best possible plan. Add to that the inevitable tensions that every failure as well as every choice of who gets a raid spot and who gets what loot induces into a guild, with the inevitable guild drama ensuing, and you get a sort of gameplay that really isn't much fun. Beating that one obstacle is nice, getting phat loot is nice, but there are long intervals between those events that just make it too frustrating to be worth it. For every one raid where you beat a new boss and got a piece of new gear, there are several where you just got a repair bill. Is that really how I want to spend my evenings? I don't think so.
- posted by Tobold @ 7:43 AM Permanent Link
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Think back in time. In time when UBRS was a 10 man raid instance. When Strath was a 10 man raid instance. Remember that you still wiped, even with 10 people.
Bliz changed that to 5 man instances at one point. Was it too hard? No, but manageable.
What changed between the 10 and 5 man instances? The gear, the people. The server increased in gear quality on average so UBRS 10 man was a joke and 5 man was ok.
Where are we now in BC. We are at the Beat in UBRS. We haven't had the instance on farm even. We just have learned there is an UBRS.
Wait and see, in 6 month Karazhan will be like UBRS was in the beginning.
Bliz changed that to 5 man instances at one point. Was it too hard? No, but manageable.
What changed between the 10 and 5 man instances? The gear, the people. The server increased in gear quality on average so UBRS 10 man was a joke and 5 man was ok.
Where are we now in BC. We are at the Beat in UBRS. We haven't had the instance on farm even. We just have learned there is an UBRS.
Wait and see, in 6 month Karazhan will be like UBRS was in the beginning.
Me, Healing. Boomkin Druid, Warrior, Mage & Rogue.
Have the mage use cast/instant cast spells to kill the trash mobs + the other 2 dps on the elite with your tank keeping it in place.
It worked for us, even when Temporus evade bugged at 10% and we had to kill him TWICE, using beacons of course on the second go, using beacons on the next 2 waves to speed things up. Aeonus decided to spawn with the 18th portal upto, but we managed to pull it off. Druid is nice to have due to innervate, and alot of pressure is on the mage to not go OOM. And due to our druid being fairly "imba" she can deal out some awesome heals in her damage gear if the tank is in trouble.
Its hard, but not impossible. I went to Kharazan that evening and got some epic bracers. As our Raid Community Leader "Draws" on a pool of attuned players (there only being 2 priests attuned, im the only holy/disc one, shes shadow but we both go - shackles ftw + VT/VE is awesome) theres little "competition" our conspiracy at the moment.
Have the mage use cast/instant cast spells to kill the trash mobs + the other 2 dps on the elite with your tank keeping it in place.
It worked for us, even when Temporus evade bugged at 10% and we had to kill him TWICE, using beacons of course on the second go, using beacons on the next 2 waves to speed things up. Aeonus decided to spawn with the 18th portal upto, but we managed to pull it off. Druid is nice to have due to innervate, and alot of pressure is on the mage to not go OOM. And due to our druid being fairly "imba" she can deal out some awesome heals in her damage gear if the tank is in trouble.
Its hard, but not impossible. I went to Kharazan that evening and got some epic bracers. As our Raid Community Leader "Draws" on a pool of attuned players (there only being 2 priests attuned, im the only holy/disc one, shes shadow but we both go - shackles ftw + VT/VE is awesome) theres little "competition" our conspiracy at the moment.
I really need to comment on this since apparently you really haven't been to kharazan yet (with the head smashing on the wall and all). Black morass is the only *smash smash smash* instance out there and after enough smashing you just get it done and NEVER, and I mean NEVER enter again. Your best bet would be to try and get a guild group with decent geared folks. You need a mage by default for fast killing, high geared tank, then 3 randoms of which preferably 1 healer and 1 offhealer (and I really love shadow priest on this one btw).
But the thing is, Kharazan is not and never will be an instance for 10 man pugs... atleast that's what it feels like... most of the guilds are strugling with it. Same can be said about Heroics, you just need 100% attention to get those down... and unfortunatelly that's usually a trait pugs lack.
For me fun in world of warcraft pretty much died because of these facts. Sure I'm in a good guild and sure I got good loot and I'm confident enough to say that I can play the game, but there's no fun and all work now in world of warcraft, and upped with the lotro-europe beta key dropping in to my reality a couple of days ago, I just gave up, packed my bags and left to middle earth :).
But the thing is, Kharazan is not and never will be an instance for 10 man pugs... atleast that's what it feels like... most of the guilds are strugling with it. Same can be said about Heroics, you just need 100% attention to get those down... and unfortunatelly that's usually a trait pugs lack.
For me fun in world of warcraft pretty much died because of these facts. Sure I'm in a good guild and sure I got good loot and I'm confident enough to say that I can play the game, but there's no fun and all work now in world of warcraft, and upped with the lotro-europe beta key dropping in to my reality a couple of days ago, I just gave up, packed my bags and left to middle earth :).
Have fun. :) Don't focus on getting through the game so much as having fun with it. :)
Of course, don't let the game's difficulty get to you as well.
Of course, don't let the game's difficulty get to you as well.
# posted by 
: 5/3/07 09:55
: 5/3/07 09:55
As written in my comment on the other post below this instance can be completed with just about any group config. It's more about getting a leader that can explain to new people what will happen, how they should play and they also should play at the top of their game for about 20min. No slacking. No autoshot, No afk.
Disconnection during the fight has happened and yeah sure it was bad but still managed, and no we are not the kickass guild, we are stuck at Curator in Karazhan atm and doesn't seem to get by in a while.
Event haven't really bugged in a while, when we went first times sometime a portal didn't open and it actually was easier then. If you pull a boss or the elite too far away from the portal they will reset, but I think thats intended from Blizzard to not allow you to kite around them for whatever reason.
I play on Horde so we haven't had much paladins yet, but in this event there is no need for specific classes as long as people play good.
I am full prot spec warrior and the groups have been like this:
* resto shaman, rogue, rogue, warlock
* resto shaman, hunter, hunter, mage
* paladin, hunter, mage, warlock
* shadow priest (on healing), mage, mage, mage
* holy priest, mage, warlock, rogue
* holy priest, rogue, rogue, dps warrior.
* feral druid (on dps), warlock, warlock, resto shaman
and the so far easiest run we had with resto shaman, hunter, dps warior, dps warrior. Hunter took care of the non-elite adds and the warriors went all out.
Don't be discouraged by failure here. Right after we finished rescuing Thrall it took us a lot number of tries to get this right. Problem we had was that we took the same group coming out of Old Hillsbrad and went Black Morass and with 2 healers dps was not enough.
Disconnection during the fight has happened and yeah sure it was bad but still managed, and no we are not the kickass guild, we are stuck at Curator in Karazhan atm and doesn't seem to get by in a while.
Event haven't really bugged in a while, when we went first times sometime a portal didn't open and it actually was easier then. If you pull a boss or the elite too far away from the portal they will reset, but I think thats intended from Blizzard to not allow you to kite around them for whatever reason.
I play on Horde so we haven't had much paladins yet, but in this event there is no need for specific classes as long as people play good.
I am full prot spec warrior and the groups have been like this:
* resto shaman, rogue, rogue, warlock
* resto shaman, hunter, hunter, mage
* paladin, hunter, mage, warlock
* shadow priest (on healing), mage, mage, mage
* holy priest, mage, warlock, rogue
* holy priest, rogue, rogue, dps warrior.
* feral druid (on dps), warlock, warlock, resto shaman
and the so far easiest run we had with resto shaman, hunter, dps warior, dps warrior. Hunter took care of the non-elite adds and the warriors went all out.
Don't be discouraged by failure here. Right after we finished rescuing Thrall it took us a lot number of tries to get this right. Problem we had was that we took the same group coming out of Old Hillsbrad and went Black Morass and with 2 healers dps was not enough.
# posted by : 5/3/07 10:37
: 5/3/07 10:37
Black Morass: kite the 2nd boss or use smart tanks who can build threat each other to pull aggro from the boss long enough for the debuff to leave.
Karazhan: you need to get there. The bosses are not freekills (except Chess event) and the loots are really bad (often worse than blues or crafted gear), but the instance is well-designed and provides entertaining evenings.
Class requirements in groups: a group in my guild cleaned Shattered Halls with 4 hunters and 1 shadow priest. I guess 4 pets and awesome dps can do anything.
Keep up the good work with the blog!
Karazhan: you need to get there. The bosses are not freekills (except Chess event) and the loots are really bad (often worse than blues or crafted gear), but the instance is well-designed and provides entertaining evenings.
Class requirements in groups: a group in my guild cleaned Shattered Halls with 4 hunters and 1 shadow priest. I guess 4 pets and awesome dps can do anything.
Keep up the good work with the blog!
# posted by : 5/3/07 10:42
: 5/3/07 10:42
Don't kite around 2nd boss, chances are high that it will just reset.
After tank gets aggro you go all out on him, ignore trash completly. Blow all cooldowns you got. Bloodlust, recklessness whatever. At one point in the fight use a beacon to relieve Medivh a bit from the worst.
After tank gets aggro you go all out on him, ignore trash completly. Blow all cooldowns you got. Bloodlust, recklessness whatever. At one point in the fight use a beacon to relieve Medivh a bit from the worst.
# posted by : 5/3/07 10:59
: 5/3/07 10:59
EQ and WoW are goal oriented mmorpgs, that depend on the oldest trick in rpgs - the carrot on a stick. Heck, that's even a must have quest reward.
The problem is that achievers plow through this content at such an incredible rate that developers have to throw up timesinks, which can be hugely demoralizing to players who don't want to - or simly can't - devote their entire life to playing, but because so many players do devote their lives to these games, developers must throw up these so called roadblocks, or risk losing the hardcore players.
Maybe one day we'll see a mmorpg that actually allows your character to complete a world changing epic quest, and results in your character being locked, and no longer playable.
Optional only, or course.
This would give us that epic blaze of glory feeling that is missing from mmorpgs, as these games are deluted with every new expansion, and inch closer to absurdity every time a new bigger badder threat is uncovered, which - just like the last bigger badder threat - must be stopped from destroying the world.
Until the next bigger badder threat is revealed, that is.
It's silly when you think about it.
The X Files or LOST equation, where every new expansion, season, or sequel erodes what made the game, tv show, or film special in the first place.
The problem is that achievers plow through this content at such an incredible rate that developers have to throw up timesinks, which can be hugely demoralizing to players who don't want to - or simly can't - devote their entire life to playing, but because so many players do devote their lives to these games, developers must throw up these so called roadblocks, or risk losing the hardcore players.
Maybe one day we'll see a mmorpg that actually allows your character to complete a world changing epic quest, and results in your character being locked, and no longer playable.
Optional only, or course.
This would give us that epic blaze of glory feeling that is missing from mmorpgs, as these games are deluted with every new expansion, and inch closer to absurdity every time a new bigger badder threat is uncovered, which - just like the last bigger badder threat - must be stopped from destroying the world.
Until the next bigger badder threat is revealed, that is.
It's silly when you think about it.
The X Files or LOST equation, where every new expansion, season, or sequel erodes what made the game, tv show, or film special in the first place.
# posted by : 5/3/07 11:21
: 5/3/07 11:21
EQ and WoW are goal oriented mmorpgs, that depend on the oldest trick in rpgs - the carrot on a stick. Heck, that's even a must have quest reward.
The problem is that achievers plow through this content at such an incredible rate that developers have to throw up timesinks, which can be hugely demoralizing to players who don't want to - or simly can't - devote their entire life to playing, but because so many players do devote their lives to these games, developers must throw up these so called roadblocks, or risk losing the hardcore players.
Yeah, that was the point of my post. I *will* get through BM one day, even if there are 20 people giving me 30 pieces of different advice (anyone else noticed that no two strategies on this are identical?).
But still I have to evaluate running behind that carrot on a stick against other alternatives, like playing Final Fantasy XII, or switching to Lord of the Rings Online. If other games could provide me with more fun and less brick walls, why should I play WoW?
I'm really already in a privileged position, having a guild full of competent players, and a blog full of competent readers to give me hints. If I find it frustrating and overly hard to beat BM, how will the average player find it? The casual player who has to rely on a pickup-group?
Games should provided some sort of challenge, but they shouldn't be *that* hard. I'm still waiting for the MMORPG which says "fuck you, hardcore players", and if they reach level 70 in 28 hours after BC is released, then get bored and quit, so be it. There is no money to be made on them anyway, they use too many resources (in server load caused per month, in customer service) for the same measly $15 that the much larger crowd of casual players pay.
5-man instances in WoW should be doable with a pickup group. If that is not challenging enough for somebody, he can play BM on heroic mode. Making a mandatory event so hard that even the hardcore wipe a couple of times is just stupid.
The problem is that achievers plow through this content at such an incredible rate that developers have to throw up timesinks, which can be hugely demoralizing to players who don't want to - or simly can't - devote their entire life to playing, but because so many players do devote their lives to these games, developers must throw up these so called roadblocks, or risk losing the hardcore players.
Yeah, that was the point of my post. I *will* get through BM one day, even if there are 20 people giving me 30 pieces of different advice (anyone else noticed that no two strategies on this are identical?).
But still I have to evaluate running behind that carrot on a stick against other alternatives, like playing Final Fantasy XII, or switching to Lord of the Rings Online. If other games could provide me with more fun and less brick walls, why should I play WoW?
I'm really already in a privileged position, having a guild full of competent players, and a blog full of competent readers to give me hints. If I find it frustrating and overly hard to beat BM, how will the average player find it? The casual player who has to rely on a pickup-group?
Games should provided some sort of challenge, but they shouldn't be *that* hard. I'm still waiting for the MMORPG which says "fuck you, hardcore players", and if they reach level 70 in 28 hours after BC is released, then get bored and quit, so be it. There is no money to be made on them anyway, they use too many resources (in server load caused per month, in customer service) for the same measly $15 that the much larger crowd of casual players pay.
5-man instances in WoW should be doable with a pickup group. If that is not challenging enough for somebody, he can play BM on heroic mode. Making a mandatory event so hard that even the hardcore wipe a couple of times is just stupid.
Yep, once again "hardcore" players are the ones drawing the longer straw in WoW.
The best game I've seen so far for casual players is City of heroes/villains. Jump in, do a few missions and leave. The only real downside is that at L30+ it gets highly repetitive with too much grinding. To be honest I have no idea how I managed to get a character to max level there because of the boring grinding at those high levels.
The best game I've seen so far for casual players is City of heroes/villains. Jump in, do a few missions and leave. The only real downside is that at L30+ it gets highly repetitive with too much grinding. To be honest I have no idea how I managed to get a character to max level there because of the boring grinding at those high levels.
# posted by : 5/3/07 11:46
: 5/3/07 11:46
That instance is simply a matter of training. Not many strategies have been posted and various advice float around but simply because so many work. The hardest part of it is the boss on wave 12 because of the dot he puts on the MT (less healing). If you dont have a spare MT you can simply run in cirles with the MT until the dot runs out. As a previous poster said ignore the trashmobs, they will take down the shield from 100% to 80% only, enough to get through.
The last boss is simple if you keep your MT health up to 100% all the time doe the time freezes.
You said you wont reenter that instance. As a priest I would reconsider and look at the loot they drop. Pretty good stuff. Also becoming exaltet with that faction gives you nice rewards too.
Hint: the first quest in that instances gives you 8000 towards your faction
The last boss is simple if you keep your MT health up to 100% all the time doe the time freezes.
You said you wont reenter that instance. As a priest I would reconsider and look at the loot they drop. Pretty good stuff. Also becoming exaltet with that faction gives you nice rewards too.
Hint: the first quest in that instances gives you 8000 towards your faction
Tobold,
I know the frustration with BM... I (in all guild groups) wiped on the instance 7 times in a row. The problem is that unless you have an absolutely perfect group, there are a lot of points in the fight which depend on luck. For instance, the warriors that come from portals have significantly more hp than the mages/warlocks, so if you get a string of warriors in a row, you get behind and wipe. There are like 4 other points in there where if your group doesnt play perfectly, luck takes a larger than normal role in completing the instance...
I cant figure out whether I like the instance or not. The idea is fun, and while I am in the instance (for the first 4 to 5 times at least) I enjoyed the idea of mobs coming to my party rather than the other way around. But I didnt enjoy it nearly as much the 7th time around...
I know the frustration with BM... I (in all guild groups) wiped on the instance 7 times in a row. The problem is that unless you have an absolutely perfect group, there are a lot of points in the fight which depend on luck. For instance, the warriors that come from portals have significantly more hp than the mages/warlocks, so if you get a string of warriors in a row, you get behind and wipe. There are like 4 other points in there where if your group doesnt play perfectly, luck takes a larger than normal role in completing the instance...
I cant figure out whether I like the instance or not. The idea is fun, and while I am in the instance (for the first 4 to 5 times at least) I enjoyed the idea of mobs coming to my party rather than the other way around. But I didnt enjoy it nearly as much the 7th time around...
# posted by : 5/3/07 13:45
: 5/3/07 13:45
@Tobold: The Casual player is nowhere near the step you are on at the moment. The Casual player has seen the first 4-6 instances from the Expansion and has hit Lvl 65. This is a casual Player who plays 1 - 3 times a week.
For the casual player Shadow Labyrinth might be the Wall to get through.
For the casual Player there are so many Quests to finish, before he gets bored.
I think the casual player is happy witht the expansion for a long time.
The problematic Group of players at the moment is the "Casual Raider". Those of us, who devote a lot of their spare time to WoW, but still have a job, family and other things in life apart from WoW. Those, who don't want to grind 8 hours a week for flasks, or that special recipe, or materials for a needed craftable item. People who dedicate 3 or 4 evenings a week to WoW.
The group of players, which were able to stage a 40 man raid to MC and kill Ragnaros, first boss of AQ and some bosses in BWL. Those are now having a hard time, as they are going through the "normal" instances at a good rate, but then hit the Wall rather hard. (to use your words)
i think the casuals are doing fine at the moment, it is the "middle", who suffer from the current Raid instance design.
For the casual player Shadow Labyrinth might be the Wall to get through.
For the casual Player there are so many Quests to finish, before he gets bored.
I think the casual player is happy witht the expansion for a long time.
The problematic Group of players at the moment is the "Casual Raider". Those of us, who devote a lot of their spare time to WoW, but still have a job, family and other things in life apart from WoW. Those, who don't want to grind 8 hours a week for flasks, or that special recipe, or materials for a needed craftable item. People who dedicate 3 or 4 evenings a week to WoW.
The group of players, which were able to stage a 40 man raid to MC and kill Ragnaros, first boss of AQ and some bosses in BWL. Those are now having a hard time, as they are going through the "normal" instances at a good rate, but then hit the Wall rather hard. (to use your words)
i think the casuals are doing fine at the moment, it is the "middle", who suffer from the current Raid instance design.
# posted by : 5/3/07 13:56
: 5/3/07 13:56
Group composition is ultra important.
My first time there Id heard it was really hard so I was all psyched up for a difficult fight.
I was on add duty, killed them all easily, no add ever reached medivh in any phase (even boss 2), barely touched any bosses or elites with dmg. Noone used a beacon at all. Finished it and said "is that it? when was it supposed to get hard?"
Didnt even have the kara quest :O
Went back with a different group setup to help someone with their key. Wiped the whole afternoon and gave up.
My first time there Id heard it was really hard so I was all psyched up for a difficult fight.
I was on add duty, killed them all easily, no add ever reached medivh in any phase (even boss 2), barely touched any bosses or elites with dmg. Noone used a beacon at all. Finished it and said "is that it? when was it supposed to get hard?"
Didnt even have the kara quest :O
Went back with a different group setup to help someone with their key. Wiped the whole afternoon and gave up.
# posted by : 5/3/07 14:17
: 5/3/07 14:17
It's funny, though I've known for a while that I would playing LotRO at the end of this month as my new home, I bought the Burning Crusade. I figured I'd get to 70 and have a chance to do some dungeons and arenas before leaving Azeroth and the Outland for a long while.
The thing is though, that didn't happen, and it won't. I quickly found the leveling boring (due largely in part to the fact that even with a fresh coat of paint, the game is still the same game I've been playing for 2+ years), and the more I heard about the Rep grinds and the like... I quickly lost interest in seeing 70 and my flying mount. Even the lure of the Arenas and Honor point spending at 70 can't make me get there.
Sometimes, even an expansion can't save a game from getting boring. I know it's still grand for some, but not for me. I'll likely still keep checking in from time to time, but I just don't think WoW's the "it" game for me anymore.
The time to move into a more interesting world, with more avenues to stroll down is near. March 30th can't come soon enough.
The thing is though, that didn't happen, and it won't. I quickly found the leveling boring (due largely in part to the fact that even with a fresh coat of paint, the game is still the same game I've been playing for 2+ years), and the more I heard about the Rep grinds and the like... I quickly lost interest in seeing 70 and my flying mount. Even the lure of the Arenas and Honor point spending at 70 can't make me get there.
Sometimes, even an expansion can't save a game from getting boring. I know it's still grand for some, but not for me. I'll likely still keep checking in from time to time, but I just don't think WoW's the "it" game for me anymore.
The time to move into a more interesting world, with more avenues to stroll down is near. March 30th can't come soon enough.
Just had to comment on this...
I think that comparing WoW Black Morass to starting FF XII or LOTRO isn't fair; it's apples-to-oranges.
The reason I say that is because you're comparing endgame (post-Azeroth endgame) to starting new. And I would *expect* there to be some head-butting in the endgame.
A better comparison would be comparing starting FF XII or LOTRO to starting a Draenei or BE alt toon and running through their 1-20 starting areas.
I think that comparing WoW Black Morass to starting FF XII or LOTRO isn't fair; it's apples-to-oranges.
The reason I say that is because you're comparing endgame (post-Azeroth endgame) to starting new. And I would *expect* there to be some head-butting in the endgame.
A better comparison would be comparing starting FF XII or LOTRO to starting a Draenei or BE alt toon and running through their 1-20 starting areas.
I'm a 70 Shadow Priest and have had the privelage to run this instance 30+ times (both DPS and solo healer) helping guildies get attuned for Kara (yay Keepers rep).
BM is easy with the following setup:
Good Tank
Good Healer
3 whatever that can sustain 500+ DPS
Strat:
DPS the crap out of everything in sight.
This instance is a DPS check for Kara. If you get behind in BM (lack of DPS), Kara will be a complete wipefest. (which is where my guild is now)
@Tobold
Get some of your keyed players (who should be better geared now then when they ran it) to assist you. It sounds like a part of your guild wants to be hardcore and has left the rest of you to fend for themselves. Don't be too concerned though, because when they want to try 25 man content and only have 10 people adequately equipped and experienced, they'll get to enjoy the wall too.
The "casual raider" should be willing to help guildies with lower content/attunments/quests (2 70s and 3 59-60s in Ramparts is just fun.)
BM is easy with the following setup:
Good Tank
Good Healer
3 whatever that can sustain 500+ DPS
Strat:
DPS the crap out of everything in sight.
This instance is a DPS check for Kara. If you get behind in BM (lack of DPS), Kara will be a complete wipefest. (which is where my guild is now)
@Tobold
Get some of your keyed players (who should be better geared now then when they ran it) to assist you. It sounds like a part of your guild wants to be hardcore and has left the rest of you to fend for themselves. Don't be too concerned though, because when they want to try 25 man content and only have 10 people adequately equipped and experienced, they'll get to enjoy the wall too.
The "casual raider" should be willing to help guildies with lower content/attunments/quests (2 70s and 3 59-60s in Ramparts is just fun.)
# posted by : 5/3/07 14:53
: 5/3/07 14:53
Anonymous said...
@Tobold: The Casual player is nowhere near the step you are on at the moment. The Casual player has seen the first 4-6 instances from the Expansion and has hit Lvl 65. This is a casual Player who plays 1 - 3 times a week.
For the casual player Shadow Labyrinth might be the Wall to get through.
For the casual Player there are so many Quests to finish, before he gets bored.
I'm sorry, but this is so wrong it's silly. I was raiding Naxxramas before I had quit WoW. I was a casual raider, but I was still a raider seeing content most weren't.
I came back to WoW 2 weeks after the expansion came out. I play normally 3 nights a week, 2-3 hours per night. I've only seen 6 of the 5 man instances at this point, and haven't entered any of them more than once. I'm level 70, and I've defeated Murmur in Shadow Labyrinth.
I'm still trying to finish up my Shadowmoon Valley quests, and I haven't even started Netherstorm (other than flying around picking up flight points). Honestly, I hit 70 significantly faster than I anticipated. I'm sure a good portion of that is the fact that I was using rest xp the entire time I played, just like anybody who plays 1-3 nights per week would.
I'm interested in the Black Morass mostly because I've been going out of my way to PUG all of the instances that I do. I have friends who would be more than happy to help me out in different instances (including friends who are begging me to let them run me through Black Morass because they want me to go to Karazhan with them). I'm trying to balance my desire to see each of these new instances with my desire not to end up on that hamster wheel again.
@Tobold: The Casual player is nowhere near the step you are on at the moment. The Casual player has seen the first 4-6 instances from the Expansion and has hit Lvl 65. This is a casual Player who plays 1 - 3 times a week.
For the casual player Shadow Labyrinth might be the Wall to get through.
For the casual Player there are so many Quests to finish, before he gets bored.
I'm sorry, but this is so wrong it's silly. I was raiding Naxxramas before I had quit WoW. I was a casual raider, but I was still a raider seeing content most weren't.
I came back to WoW 2 weeks after the expansion came out. I play normally 3 nights a week, 2-3 hours per night. I've only seen 6 of the 5 man instances at this point, and haven't entered any of them more than once. I'm level 70, and I've defeated Murmur in Shadow Labyrinth.
I'm still trying to finish up my Shadowmoon Valley quests, and I haven't even started Netherstorm (other than flying around picking up flight points). Honestly, I hit 70 significantly faster than I anticipated. I'm sure a good portion of that is the fact that I was using rest xp the entire time I played, just like anybody who plays 1-3 nights per week would.
I'm interested in the Black Morass mostly because I've been going out of my way to PUG all of the instances that I do. I have friends who would be more than happy to help me out in different instances (including friends who are begging me to let them run me through Black Morass because they want me to go to Karazhan with them). I'm trying to balance my desire to see each of these new instances with my desire not to end up on that hamster wheel again.
I admit to not having the "raider mentality" so feel free to take my comments with a grain of salt but speaking personally I have always considered it a flaw in game design when there is a hurdle which must be overcome to progress whose increase in difficulty is ridiculously out of line with the normal flow of the game. MAFIA, one of my all time favorite single player games, was ruined for many players because of an extremely difficult race sequence about a quarter of the way through which prevented many players from experiencing the bulk of the game.
I accept that the transition to raiding represents a fundamental shift in the way an MMORPG is played. I do not think it is correct however to put a very hard "ability test" which prevents many players from making that transition. Would it not be better to have a more gradual progression that helps players make the transition rather than putting an artificial barrier which weeds out players.
I also accept that there is a role for extremely hard encounters that can only be overcome with perfect group mix, perfect preparation and perfect execution. I am sure that many hard core players relish the challenge that such encounters provide. However I think that encounters like this should be side branches to the main progression path rather than blockages upon it, nice to complete but not essential. Players who overcome such challenges might be rewarded with unique items having desirable skins, with items that have better than normal stats or even with gold but not with keys that are nessecary to progress further in the game.
I accept that the transition to raiding represents a fundamental shift in the way an MMORPG is played. I do not think it is correct however to put a very hard "ability test" which prevents many players from making that transition. Would it not be better to have a more gradual progression that helps players make the transition rather than putting an artificial barrier which weeds out players.
I also accept that there is a role for extremely hard encounters that can only be overcome with perfect group mix, perfect preparation and perfect execution. I am sure that many hard core players relish the challenge that such encounters provide. However I think that encounters like this should be side branches to the main progression path rather than blockages upon it, nice to complete but not essential. Players who overcome such challenges might be rewarded with unique items having desirable skins, with items that have better than normal stats or even with gold but not with keys that are nessecary to progress further in the game.
Me and my small guild of about 10 people just did the easier level 70 instances for gear upgrades and then came back to the Black Morass. Shadow Labs is easy with two forms of crowd control and the Mechanar is easy if you can avoid the elevator bug.
There's many different strategies that work for the Black Morass but you either need the right class/specs or else a gear advantage.
In my opinion the stupid Arcatraz dungeon is a lot harder with its mobs that use meteor and AoE gouge.
There's many different strategies that work for the Black Morass but you either need the right class/specs or else a gear advantage.
In my opinion the stupid Arcatraz dungeon is a lot harder with its mobs that use meteor and AoE gouge.
@Albatros: so where do you disagree with me?
Do you see yourself as a casual player?
Sorry you do not qualify as a casual player in my definition, you are the casual raider at least.
Savrukk
Do you see yourself as a casual player?
Sorry you do not qualify as a casual player in my definition, you are the casual raider at least.
Savrukk
# posted by : 5/3/07 16:52
: 5/3/07 16:52
This is an annoying instance, for a number of reasons.
One the trash clearing at the start is super easy, but also super boring and time consuming. If you wipe, you usually have to reset (though you may get one extra try if you wipe on the last, second hardest boss in the encounter) which means you have to do this tedious trash clearing again.
The instance is also out of the way and can be a pain in the arse to get together.
I got lucky and completed it on a second try with a good group of friends who work well together. But it could have easily gone more the head bashing scenario Tobold is describing. I am now starting to help other guildies complete this chain, and it has so far gone ok. But if the repeat wiping starts happening, I can see why guild members would tire of helping buddies through this place.
It's just not all that fun because of it's confuguration. They could fix it with less trash clearing and a portal from Shattrath to Gagetzan:)
One the trash clearing at the start is super easy, but also super boring and time consuming. If you wipe, you usually have to reset (though you may get one extra try if you wipe on the last, second hardest boss in the encounter) which means you have to do this tedious trash clearing again.
The instance is also out of the way and can be a pain in the arse to get together.
I got lucky and completed it on a second try with a good group of friends who work well together. But it could have easily gone more the head bashing scenario Tobold is describing. I am now starting to help other guildies complete this chain, and it has so far gone ok. But if the repeat wiping starts happening, I can see why guild members would tire of helping buddies through this place.
It's just not all that fun because of it's confuguration. They could fix it with less trash clearing and a portal from Shattrath to Gagetzan:)
# posted by : 5/3/07 17:13
: 5/3/07 17:13
Why are you in such a hurry to do Karazhan? This is end-game raiding, which leads to another end-game raid zone after another after another.
BM, Karazhan, etc... are not for pugs or casuals. Casuals need to grind rep and get all the quest reward blues and crafted blue/epic gear first before trying to pug BM and Karazhan.
BM, Karazhan, etc... are not for pugs or casuals. Casuals need to grind rep and get all the quest reward blues and crafted blue/epic gear first before trying to pug BM and Karazhan.
# posted by : 5/3/07 17:20
: 5/3/07 17:20
Albatross, you are not a casual player.
I am now lv 68 (just dinged), I have completed most quests in Hellfire Pen, Terokkar Forest and Zangermarsh. I have yet to do a single quest in Nagrand.
I have only friendly rep with Aldors at the moment (nowhere near Honoured).
Instance-wise I have done Hellfire Ramparts, Blood Furnace, and Underbog. I have yet to do any others (all done with PUGs).
I have no idea how or where to begin any of these 'attunement' quests. I presume you have to read up on them on the web, or stumble across them in the course of levelling.
I'm in no rush to go to Nagrand, because I'm sure there will be the same old quests to do - ie go fetch me 10 fish, kill 20 spiders, rescue my friend from such and such a place. It's all a bit samey. It would be nice to do some more instances, but it all seems a bit too hardcore to me, and sitting round in half-formed PUGs to enter an instance where Im likely to get wiped half a dozen times doesn't particularly appeal.
I am now lv 68 (just dinged), I have completed most quests in Hellfire Pen, Terokkar Forest and Zangermarsh. I have yet to do a single quest in Nagrand.
I have only friendly rep with Aldors at the moment (nowhere near Honoured).
Instance-wise I have done Hellfire Ramparts, Blood Furnace, and Underbog. I have yet to do any others (all done with PUGs).
I have no idea how or where to begin any of these 'attunement' quests. I presume you have to read up on them on the web, or stumble across them in the course of levelling.
I'm in no rush to go to Nagrand, because I'm sure there will be the same old quests to do - ie go fetch me 10 fish, kill 20 spiders, rescue my friend from such and such a place. It's all a bit samey. It would be nice to do some more instances, but it all seems a bit too hardcore to me, and sitting round in half-formed PUGs to enter an instance where Im likely to get wiped half a dozen times doesn't particularly appeal.
# posted by : 5/3/07 17:29
: 5/3/07 17:29
Savrukk, by your definition a casual player would play as often as I do but be 5 levels behind me (which seems impossible as I had no interest in levelling, was rarely going to instances and still hit 70 very quickly). Of the 5 man instances that I've entered, I've only gone in with PUGs. The fact that I'm wearing epics from a guild I used to be in has no bearing on the fact that I've played TBC as the average casual player.
Seriously, look at your first post. Playing 1-3 days per week (check), having entered 4-6 instances (check). I am currently unguilded by choice and questing with 1 friend while I spend the rest of the time either solo or in a PUG (I finished 2 of the big Shadowmoon quest lines that require 5 people last night after gathering 4 random folks in general).
So explain again how I'm a casual raider?
@Anonymous:
Good lord. So I'm not casual because I dinged 70 without really trying? I'm not casual because I bothered to do all the quests in every zone up to Shadowmoon so far? Most of those were done solo or duo, btw.
Or am I not casual because I dared to enter 5 man instances with a PUG without breaking into cold sweats that I might die (every PUG run I've been in has wiped at least once, although none has wiped more than three times)?
There's a difference between "casual" and "attempting to play an MMORPG without any human contact".
I also have no idea where any of the key quests begin. My assumption is that I'll eventually stumble upon a quest as I try to clear out every ! from every zone. I know that the Karazhan key ends in Black Morass though, because my friends were asking to help me with it. And I know a portion of the key is in Shadow Labyrinth because the guy running the party through there asked me if I needed my key fragment.
Some of you people have the most warped definitions of casual that I could imagine.
Seriously, look at your first post. Playing 1-3 days per week (check), having entered 4-6 instances (check). I am currently unguilded by choice and questing with 1 friend while I spend the rest of the time either solo or in a PUG (I finished 2 of the big Shadowmoon quest lines that require 5 people last night after gathering 4 random folks in general).
So explain again how I'm a casual raider?
@Anonymous:
Good lord. So I'm not casual because I dinged 70 without really trying? I'm not casual because I bothered to do all the quests in every zone up to Shadowmoon so far? Most of those were done solo or duo, btw.
Or am I not casual because I dared to enter 5 man instances with a PUG without breaking into cold sweats that I might die (every PUG run I've been in has wiped at least once, although none has wiped more than three times)?
There's a difference between "casual" and "attempting to play an MMORPG without any human contact".
I also have no idea where any of the key quests begin. My assumption is that I'll eventually stumble upon a quest as I try to clear out every ! from every zone. I know that the Karazhan key ends in Black Morass though, because my friends were asking to help me with it. And I know a portion of the key is in Shadow Labyrinth because the guy running the party through there asked me if I needed my key fragment.
Some of you people have the most warped definitions of casual that I could imagine.
ALbatross - you're a casual raider rather than a casual player because you *admitted* it in the comments. You were raiding Naxx pre-expansion. That means that you started off in Outlands with gear that most casual players wouldn't have - even if you never actually had a single drop from Naxx before you quit, you were probably well-decked out in Tier 2 or AQ40 gear. That kind of gear made a lot of the first encounters in Outlands trivial compared to casual players and let you go through the encounters and quests more quickly.
Even if you aren't casually raiding NOW, you're still going to fall into the casual raider category because of your history/background/gear.
Even if you aren't casually raiding NOW, you're still going to fall into the casual raider category because of your history/background/gear.
# posted by : 5/3/07 18:09
: 5/3/07 18:09
[quote]
Games should provided some sort of challenge, but they shouldn't be *that* hard. I'm still waiting for the MMORPG which says "fuck you, hardcore players", and if they reach level 70 in 28 hours after BC is released, then get bored and quit, so be it. There is no money to be made on them anyway, they use too many resources (in server load caused per month, in customer service) for the same measly $15 that the much larger crowd of casual players pay.
[/quote]
What you are describing is level 1-59, in WoW, which is why WoW's post 60/70 content (meet the new end game, same as the old end game)is so frustrating.
Oh, and did Blizzard ever give a rational reason why flying mounts couldn't be attained at 60th, instead of 70th, because they seem like nothing more than a glorified raid key, with wings.
In any case, great blog.
Games should provided some sort of challenge, but they shouldn't be *that* hard. I'm still waiting for the MMORPG which says "fuck you, hardcore players", and if they reach level 70 in 28 hours after BC is released, then get bored and quit, so be it. There is no money to be made on them anyway, they use too many resources (in server load caused per month, in customer service) for the same measly $15 that the much larger crowd of casual players pay.
[/quote]
What you are describing is level 1-59, in WoW, which is why WoW's post 60/70 content (meet the new end game, same as the old end game)is so frustrating.
Oh, and did Blizzard ever give a rational reason why flying mounts couldn't be attained at 60th, instead of 70th, because they seem like nothing more than a glorified raid key, with wings.
In any case, great blog.
# posted by : 5/3/07 18:39
: 5/3/07 18:39
Anonymous said...
ALbatross - you're a casual raider rather than a casual player because you *admitted* it in the comments. You were raiding Naxx pre-expansion. That means that you started off in Outlands with gear that most casual players wouldn't have - even if you never actually had a single drop from Naxx before you quit, you were probably well-decked out in Tier 2 or AQ40 gear. That kind of gear made a lot of the first encounters in Outlands trivial compared to casual players and let you go through the encounters and quests more quickly.
Even if you aren't casually raiding NOW, you're still going to fall into the casual raider category because of your history/background/gear.
I'm sorry, but that's absurd. Have you noticed how I mention that one friend and I are going around questing together? He was in the raid guild with me, but he quit about 6 months before TBC was released. He was positive he didn't want to come back, so he took up enchanting and sharded every single stitch that he had on him, and everything in the bank, and he mailed me all the shards and his gold.
When he came back I mailed him some gold and he went to the auction house and bought some green gear, and we headed to the Outlands together. He quite literally didn't even have a single blue item on him. He dinged 70 a day before I did, while we played on almost identical schedules.
I really don't get people trying to play a victim in a game. Gear made little to no difference, and Blizzard did everything in their power to make that the case. I was able to watch that firsthand as my friend actually got excited about all of the quest reward loot he got while I vendored almost everything, and we levelled nearly identically.
So by your definition, I'm a casual raider and my friend isn't? Because I have purples from raid instances that are now completely outdated? Hmmmm, but he got to 70 a day before I did so I guess we can scientifically prove that casuals have an inherent advantage over casual raiders then right? I mean, as long as we're making ridiculous leaps of logic let's go all the way.
ALbatross - you're a casual raider rather than a casual player because you *admitted* it in the comments. You were raiding Naxx pre-expansion. That means that you started off in Outlands with gear that most casual players wouldn't have - even if you never actually had a single drop from Naxx before you quit, you were probably well-decked out in Tier 2 or AQ40 gear. That kind of gear made a lot of the first encounters in Outlands trivial compared to casual players and let you go through the encounters and quests more quickly.
Even if you aren't casually raiding NOW, you're still going to fall into the casual raider category because of your history/background/gear.
I'm sorry, but that's absurd. Have you noticed how I mention that one friend and I are going around questing together? He was in the raid guild with me, but he quit about 6 months before TBC was released. He was positive he didn't want to come back, so he took up enchanting and sharded every single stitch that he had on him, and everything in the bank, and he mailed me all the shards and his gold.
When he came back I mailed him some gold and he went to the auction house and bought some green gear, and we headed to the Outlands together. He quite literally didn't even have a single blue item on him. He dinged 70 a day before I did, while we played on almost identical schedules.
I really don't get people trying to play a victim in a game. Gear made little to no difference, and Blizzard did everything in their power to make that the case. I was able to watch that firsthand as my friend actually got excited about all of the quest reward loot he got while I vendored almost everything, and we levelled nearly identically.
So by your definition, I'm a casual raider and my friend isn't? Because I have purples from raid instances that are now completely outdated? Hmmmm, but he got to 70 a day before I did so I guess we can scientifically prove that casuals have an inherent advantage over casual raiders then right? I mean, as long as we're making ridiculous leaps of logic let's go all the way.
Bah, quit arguing about it. Neither of you are casual players! A real casual player only has time to play once a week for about 3 hours. By now the real casual players are only level 62-64, and sure as hell never ran Naxx. If you think playing games 10+ hours a week is casual, you need to gain some perspective.
We need to split people into more than just the 2 groups of casual and hardcore.
We need to split people into more than just the 2 groups of casual and hardcore.
Bah, quit arguing about it. Neither of you are casual players! A real casual player only has time to play once a week for about 3 hours. By now the real casual players are only level 62-64, and sure as hell never ran Naxx. If you think playing games 10+ hours a week is casual, you need to gain some perspective.
Sigh. Well, it's a good thing you chimed in so everybody can now know the definitive truth.
I am quite interested why running Naxx with a guild you no longer belong to means that you are forever going forward a "hardcore" player. Usually Tobold's blog is a great place for reasonable interaction, thanks for bringing the curve down.
Sigh. Well, it's a good thing you chimed in so everybody can now know the definitive truth.
I am quite interested why running Naxx with a guild you no longer belong to means that you are forever going forward a "hardcore" player. Usually Tobold's blog is a great place for reasonable interaction, thanks for bringing the curve down.
Can we return to the original topic ?
From what I heard, it looks like LOTRO and WAR will be coming out in a good time after all. Lots of people are getting bored/frustrated of the high-lvl WoW. My greatest memory of WoW was when i was doing some SM run with my friends 6 months ago. Hope i can get that feeling again in LOTRO
From what I heard, it looks like LOTRO and WAR will be coming out in a good time after all. Lots of people are getting bored/frustrated of the high-lvl WoW. My greatest memory of WoW was when i was doing some SM run with my friends 6 months ago. Hope i can get that feeling again in LOTRO
# posted by : 5/3/07 22:45
: 5/3/07 22:45
Games should provided some sort of challenge, but they shouldn't be *that* hard. I'm still waiting for the MMORPG which says "fuck you, hardcore players", and if they reach level 70 in 28 hours after BC is released, then get bored and quit, so be it.
City of Villains/Heroes are pretty close to that. There is no "end-game" as such compared to WoW. On the way to the max level you can select different difficulty settings for your missions, thus varying the challenge a bit. New features added are generally done in mind that it should be available to everyone.
The game sort of encourages creating and playing alts and it is a nice "pick up and play for a bit" type of game.
City of Villains/Heroes are pretty close to that. There is no "end-game" as such compared to WoW. On the way to the max level you can select different difficulty settings for your missions, thus varying the challenge a bit. New features added are generally done in mind that it should be available to everyone.
The game sort of encourages creating and playing alts and it is a nice "pick up and play for a bit" type of game.
The tide seems to be going out on WoW. The underlying issue I think is that the gameplay hasn't changed. A lot of people held on for the last 6-8 months thinking the expansion would change everything. It did fix a lot of the biggest gripes but didn't fundamentally alter the basic gameplay. It doesn't mean WoW's a bad game, I played more WoW than I've ever played any other game, it just means it's time to move on.
There *were* three big mistakes made with the expansion though, IMO.
1. Blizzard freaked out at the idea of the hardcore raiders completing all the content in 6 months, and tuned the entry endgame too steep. Indeed, over on the hardcore forums the opinion is that Kara (and BM) are tuned just right, but there is a complete brick wall in difficulty after the first 25-man boss. Somewhere under 100 guilds are able to progress at all, and a couple bosses have only been killed by 2-3 after weeks. It was particularly dumb for blizzard to worry about the uber-hardcore because they never quit through months of waiting for content before. Make em wait a few months in the middle of the year, then patch in BT, make em wait a few months at the end of the year. Problem solved. This perspective can also be seen in the lack of current limits on consumables for 25-man raids (=tuning around consumables= farming 1/3 of your playtime).
2. Blizzard took the wrong approach to solving the gear gap issues. Rather than carefully introduce new gear tiers/content that let non-raiders/pvpers/arena pvpers stay even with or just a tiny step behind cutting edge raiders throughout the year, they totally nerfed gear progression in karazahn and beyond. The carrot is not what it used to be.
3. Blizzard fell into the dichotomy you most commonly see on the forums, casual vs. raider. They really needs to understand that in between the 40% who play <10 hours a week, "casuals" and the 5 % who play >30, "hardcores", there is a large pool of MMO enthusiasts, "semi-casuals" who are enthusiasts and for whom MMO play has more or less replaced TV. These people are more reliable long-term subscribers than casual players, many of them pull several friends along with them, and they do not burn through content at the speed of hardcores. The first game that is built entirely around this group will be a big success.
Well, see you all in LOTRO, even if the combat is a bit sluggish everything else is very streamlined and it sounds from the dev posts like they really get it.
There *were* three big mistakes made with the expansion though, IMO.
1. Blizzard freaked out at the idea of the hardcore raiders completing all the content in 6 months, and tuned the entry endgame too steep. Indeed, over on the hardcore forums the opinion is that Kara (and BM) are tuned just right, but there is a complete brick wall in difficulty after the first 25-man boss. Somewhere under 100 guilds are able to progress at all, and a couple bosses have only been killed by 2-3 after weeks. It was particularly dumb for blizzard to worry about the uber-hardcore because they never quit through months of waiting for content before. Make em wait a few months in the middle of the year, then patch in BT, make em wait a few months at the end of the year. Problem solved. This perspective can also be seen in the lack of current limits on consumables for 25-man raids (=tuning around consumables= farming 1/3 of your playtime).
2. Blizzard took the wrong approach to solving the gear gap issues. Rather than carefully introduce new gear tiers/content that let non-raiders/pvpers/arena pvpers stay even with or just a tiny step behind cutting edge raiders throughout the year, they totally nerfed gear progression in karazahn and beyond. The carrot is not what it used to be.
3. Blizzard fell into the dichotomy you most commonly see on the forums, casual vs. raider. They really needs to understand that in between the 40% who play <10 hours a week, "casuals" and the 5 % who play >30, "hardcores", there is a large pool of MMO enthusiasts, "semi-casuals" who are enthusiasts and for whom MMO play has more or less replaced TV. These people are more reliable long-term subscribers than casual players, many of them pull several friends along with them, and they do not burn through content at the speed of hardcores. The first game that is built entirely around this group will be a big success.
Well, see you all in LOTRO, even if the combat is a bit sluggish everything else is very streamlined and it sounds from the dev posts like they really get it.
# posted by : 6/3/07 01:30
: 6/3/07 01:30
There are so many good MMPORPG's out there these days that I don't care anymore about 'engame content'. This was a tough conclusion for me to come to as I am an older gamer and have always been used to games that have a grand finish. When I start to see myself procrastinating about logging on, or getting so upset that it effects my offline life then its time for me to move on to a different game. Screw the endgame! Its kind of sad that, for me, ending a game these days has to always be on a sad note, but that's the nature of MMPORPG's.
Its very interesting how creative games like WoW have become in getting players to chase that carrot and keep paying the monthly fee. Compared to other games I find the amount of content in WoW is pretty massive. If you find that you have hit the wall, pat yourself on the back for a great run and go seek adventures in different games is my advice.
Its very interesting how creative games like WoW have become in getting players to chase that carrot and keep paying the monthly fee. Compared to other games I find the amount of content in WoW is pretty massive. If you find that you have hit the wall, pat yourself on the back for a great run and go seek adventures in different games is my advice.
# posted by : 6/3/07 01:44
: 6/3/07 01:44
I'd like to add too that for some reason it seemed that Blizzard didn't listen to feedback the way they previously did. Now we're seeing nerfs of 20-30% 2 months into the expansion. People were posting all over the beta boards that fights were too anti-melee, warriors were rage-starved, druid dps was too high, etc.
Part of it could be the oldest story in capitalism - company breaks into a market, enjoys tremendous success, grows in size, loses sight of what made it big in the first place, gets conservative/tries to please everybody, gets undercut by competitors, recovers its competitive drive.
Finally, I also think the constant nerf/buff cycle drove a lot of people nuts, and was driven by trying to compress PVE and PVP into one game. This was compounded by the talent system, which made the core tank and healer classes/specs unappetizing to solo or PVP with, making them quite rare. In the future I expect the market to become more niche, with games that are either PVE-centric like LOTRO or PVP-centric like WAR. We are leaving the "golden age" of MMO's when everyone played under one big roof and spoke a common language ;).
Part of it could be the oldest story in capitalism - company breaks into a market, enjoys tremendous success, grows in size, loses sight of what made it big in the first place, gets conservative/tries to please everybody, gets undercut by competitors, recovers its competitive drive.
Finally, I also think the constant nerf/buff cycle drove a lot of people nuts, and was driven by trying to compress PVE and PVP into one game. This was compounded by the talent system, which made the core tank and healer classes/specs unappetizing to solo or PVP with, making them quite rare. In the future I expect the market to become more niche, with games that are either PVE-centric like LOTRO or PVP-centric like WAR. We are leaving the "golden age" of MMO's when everyone played under one big roof and spoke a common language ;).
# posted by : 6/3/07 01:47
: 6/3/07 01:47
@Albatros:
I don't think that you are "forever a hardcore player" only because you raided Naxxramas. But you do not fit into MY definition of casual. As you quoted from my post the casual player is online 1-3 times a week. That does mean at maximum 3 days a week and NOT 3 times a week every week. Nissl made a nice description 40% casual, 55% MMO enthusiasts and 5 % hardcore. I think you belong to those 55% now.
Quote: Albatross/Savrukk.....boring as hell --> don't read it
btw. i did no write all "anonym" posts regarding this matter.
Savrukk
I don't think that you are "forever a hardcore player" only because you raided Naxxramas. But you do not fit into MY definition of casual. As you quoted from my post the casual player is online 1-3 times a week. That does mean at maximum 3 days a week and NOT 3 times a week every week. Nissl made a nice description 40% casual, 55% MMO enthusiasts and 5 % hardcore. I think you belong to those 55% now.
Quote: Albatross/Savrukk.....boring as hell --> don't read it
btw. i did no write all "anonym" posts regarding this matter.
Savrukk
# posted by : 6/3/07 07:32
: 6/3/07 07:32
All the acrimony is unnecessary. As my dear mother used to say, if you can't say something nice, keep your big mouth shut. Hey, while you're arguing about how many hours a "casual" player vs. a "hardcore" player plays, why not shout in all caps about "HOW MANY ANGELS CAN DANCE ON THE HEAD OF A PIN?"
I've never been through Black Morass, so I can't add much, but I've been reading up on it, and it sounds like one key to beating the second boss, is dispelling his haste buff.
I haven't gone through all the "loss of content" sorrows many of you have, because I enjoy PVP so much. I'm decked out in PVP rewards right now, so I suppose I'm decently geared. I'd really love to have some of that Arena gear, but like many casual players, I don't play the game enough to effectively compete with the hardcore players.
I'm going to try Black Morass tonight, and luckily I'll be going with a group that's done it before. My biggest problem as a shadow priest is running out of mana too quickly, that and getting aggro and dieing of course. I can out DPS just about anything, but because I'm also Shadow Healing, I really have to watch how fast and how hard I jump in. I'll take aggro even from a protection specced warrior very quickly.
One thing that's aggravating about all the advise, is the lack of commonsense advise. I don't care about your group composition, tell me how many hitpoints each boss has, how long I'll have between each portal opening, and what special attacks each boss has--not just #12. I've learned hear that trying to kite a boss might be a bad idea because of evade, so thanks for that. I didn't see that anywhere else btw.
What kinds of crowd control will work on a boss? Can they be frost-trapped, MCed, Feared, Rooted, Snared, etc.
How long does this sheild of Medhva's last when adds are left to run wild? Would letting a bunch of them build up then AOEing them work?
On escort runs, you can usually heal the NPC you're escorting, can you do anything like that here?
I've never been through Black Morass, so I can't add much, but I've been reading up on it, and it sounds like one key to beating the second boss, is dispelling his haste buff.
I haven't gone through all the "loss of content" sorrows many of you have, because I enjoy PVP so much. I'm decked out in PVP rewards right now, so I suppose I'm decently geared. I'd really love to have some of that Arena gear, but like many casual players, I don't play the game enough to effectively compete with the hardcore players.
I'm going to try Black Morass tonight, and luckily I'll be going with a group that's done it before. My biggest problem as a shadow priest is running out of mana too quickly, that and getting aggro and dieing of course. I can out DPS just about anything, but because I'm also Shadow Healing, I really have to watch how fast and how hard I jump in. I'll take aggro even from a protection specced warrior very quickly.
One thing that's aggravating about all the advise, is the lack of commonsense advise. I don't care about your group composition, tell me how many hitpoints each boss has, how long I'll have between each portal opening, and what special attacks each boss has--not just #12. I've learned hear that trying to kite a boss might be a bad idea because of evade, so thanks for that. I didn't see that anywhere else btw.
What kinds of crowd control will work on a boss? Can they be frost-trapped, MCed, Feared, Rooted, Snared, etc.
How long does this sheild of Medhva's last when adds are left to run wild? Would letting a bunch of them build up then AOEing them work?
On escort runs, you can usually heal the NPC you're escorting, can you do anything like that here?
# posted by : 2/10/07 22:44
: 2/10/07 22:44
Please note that the original post and most of the discussion below it is outdated. Black Morass *was* too hard, thus Blizzard made it considerably easier. It is still no pushover, but far, far from the nightmare it was.
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