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Tuesday, March 27, 2007
The opposite view on talent builds in World of Warcraft
Having played the devil's advocate yesterday on everybody having to play their class role, today I'm going to argue the complete opposite view: Everybody should be free to spec as he want, and the game should accommodate that. Sorry if my previous post shocked or confused you, it's an exercise in dialectic, arguing both thesis and antithesis to get a more complete view on one subject. It sure worked in getting the discussion rolling. :)
The problem we're discussing is still the same: You want to visit one of the level 70 dungeons, and find that if take a random pickup group of people with some odd class mix, talent builds chosen more for PvP and soloing dps than for group support, and just average playing skill, you are likely to wipe several times before you even reach the first boss, and never make it to the end of the dungeon. That is particularly annoying if going to that dungeon is part of a long quest series, and you end up being blocked and unable to complete the quests.
The one solution I proposed yesterday is that if the group wipes, it's the players fault for not having chosen a better group mix and specialized group talent builds. I stayed away from the even more insulting "learn2play" argument, that the group wipes because the players are bad, but of course several readers brought up that argument in the discussion in one form or another (usually in the form of "but *I* can fulfill my class role without the right talent build").
Today I'm going to argue that if the group wipes, it's Blizzard's fault for making the dungeons too hard. And the solution to that problem is already programmed in: heroic mode dungeons. If it is possible to program a harder dungeon difficulty with better loot, then it must be possible to program an easier dungeon difficulty with less good loot. Why not have "easy" *and* "heroic" alternatives to the default "normal" dungeon difficulty? In "easy" difficulty you'd get less good loot, maybe only greens, but at least you could finish all your quests, and you could go and play with your friends, regardless of what classes and talent builds they are, and whether they are playing very well.
So you're a shadow priest, and your friends are a fury warrior, two retribution paladins, and a hunter. For the sake of argument we'll assume that you're playing very well (*grin*), but the warrior never liked tanking and is bad at it, the paladins think they are dps machines, and the hunter keeps his pet on aggressive mode. (I'm sure you already grouped with these people). Or another example, you're a shaman, and your 4 friends are shamans too, and you decide to rotate the roles of tank, healer, and dps. What I would like to see is an "easy" mode for level 70 dungeons that allows such groups to succeed. Not a walk in the park for a bad pickup group, but still doable after a couple of wipes. Far too easy for a good group with a perfect class balance and specced with the optimum group talents, but then there wouldn't be any reason for them to choose easy mode.
Now I know that for this argument I'll get a lot of angry comments from the opposite kind of people than those who shouted at me in yesterday's post. There are people around who think that a MMORPG is there to provide a static challenge, and that the players have to adapt to beat that challenge. Part of the adaption is learning to play better yourself, and that is certainly a good thing. But if you saw the people proposing to use the armory to kick out badly spec'd people from your group, you can see the dark side of adaptation. A lot of what is wrong with guilds in World of Warcraft is this concept of selecting your "friends" by class, talent build, and play ability. What if you have real life friends, or met people online who are extremely nice, but they play a class you don't need in your group, with a bad talent build, and they aren't playing very well?
I'd argue that the "MMORPG as a challenge" concept can only work for so long. Sooner or later players hit the limits of their abilities, or the abilities of the people they are able to organize as a group, and frustrations start to rise. The "MMORPG as a place to hang out with friends" has inherently a better longevity. But for that to be possible, the game has to make it possible to play with your friends without regarding their class, talents, and skill too closely. Being able to modify the difficulty level of a dungeon in *both* directions would go a long way towards that. It would make a far larger part of the game accessible to a far larger part of the population. The more accessible content you have in your game, the longer people are going to play it. And if by playing the "easy mode" dungeons they get better acquainted with the dynamics of group play, learn to play better, and finally manage to advance to the "normal" difficulty dungeon even with an odd groups, just the better.
- posted by Tobold @ 8:13 AM Permanent Link
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Not a walk in the park for a bad pickup group, but still doable after a couple of wipes.
I think this is where the current L70 instances are aimed, at least if my run of shadow lab last night is anything to go by :P
We wiped 3 or 4 times on trash, and wiped on every boss at least once. If it had been a PuG, I'm sure we would've given up, but because it was a guild run (bar one person), we kept at it and eventually one of our guildies got their karazhan key fragment.
The problem in my eyes is the nature of a PuG, not the difficulty of the instances.
I think this is where the current L70 instances are aimed, at least if my run of shadow lab last night is anything to go by :P
We wiped 3 or 4 times on trash, and wiped on every boss at least once. If it had been a PuG, I'm sure we would've given up, but because it was a guild run (bar one person), we kept at it and eventually one of our guildies got their karazhan key fragment.
The problem in my eyes is the nature of a PuG, not the difficulty of the instances.
# posted by 
: 27/3/07 10:07
: 27/3/07 10:07
That is an absolutely brilliant idea. Sometimes I wish we could run an instance the way it was done at lvl 20, doing Wailing Caverns with no healer, basically just a group of people running through killing things. Sure I'd get bored if I had to do that over and over, but it would be fun to take a break and do that once in a while. And it would reinforce one of the biggest factors that people play WoW for: friends. Just as long as they didn't make some sort of ridiculous set of quests, etc. to get keys for the normal lvl instances. ;)
# posted by : 27/3/07 11:13
: 27/3/07 11:13
In "easy" difficulty you'd get less good loot, maybe only greens, but at least you could finish all your quests, and you could go and play with your friends
Ok loot systems, we all hate them, but I had a thought about how to take your loot tweak and maybe make it slightly more exciting for players, regardless of skill/time investment/etc.
I quite like the token system of PvP, where you build up tokens and can then go to a vendor and purchase the item you want, you get rewarded for your achievement, rather than being snubbed by having a Hunter item 'randomly' drop for the hundredth time in a row when you don't have a Hunter in your group.
So taking that a step further, the token system is nice, but doesn't then give the IVR that many players enjoy. If the boss is always going to drop a token for each player in the party, and you need X tokens for Infinite Essence of the Shiny, then you can expect when to receive your reward, which is all well and good, because you know you effort will be rewarded, but there's no surprise, no instant gratification.
So, taking the 'various levels of dungeon' concept a step further: implement the token system, so you can get the rewards for that dungeon for your class without having to run it a million times and suffer a thousand disappointments, but also give the boss a chance to drop an item of loot from the loot table of that boss, but from the next instance level up.
In running these instances you would be rewarded in fair time for you effort and therefore there would be meaning in running them to those people who don't like the odds of a 1 in 20 drop after four hours play time, but for those who like the anticipation of the unexpected there's also the chance to grab a bit of loot that might be denied to your character, for whatever reason, be it wanting to play with friends, not having the time to dedicate to regular runs, or just plain sucking at playing your class. At the end of the day, every player purchased the game and payed their subscription fee, and therefore deserves a crack at something a little special; no I'm not saying that we should give all the epics to people who don't have the 'skill' *cough* to do end-game raiding, I'm saying that the opportunity to gain a few bits of loot-joy that can't be bought from the AH should be the remit of all players who make the effort to run an instance every now and again.
Ok loot systems, we all hate them, but I had a thought about how to take your loot tweak and maybe make it slightly more exciting for players, regardless of skill/time investment/etc.
I quite like the token system of PvP, where you build up tokens and can then go to a vendor and purchase the item you want, you get rewarded for your achievement, rather than being snubbed by having a Hunter item 'randomly' drop for the hundredth time in a row when you don't have a Hunter in your group.
So taking that a step further, the token system is nice, but doesn't then give the IVR that many players enjoy. If the boss is always going to drop a token for each player in the party, and you need X tokens for Infinite Essence of the Shiny, then you can expect when to receive your reward, which is all well and good, because you know you effort will be rewarded, but there's no surprise, no instant gratification.
So, taking the 'various levels of dungeon' concept a step further: implement the token system, so you can get the rewards for that dungeon for your class without having to run it a million times and suffer a thousand disappointments, but also give the boss a chance to drop an item of loot from the loot table of that boss, but from the next instance level up.
In running these instances you would be rewarded in fair time for you effort and therefore there would be meaning in running them to those people who don't like the odds of a 1 in 20 drop after four hours play time, but for those who like the anticipation of the unexpected there's also the chance to grab a bit of loot that might be denied to your character, for whatever reason, be it wanting to play with friends, not having the time to dedicate to regular runs, or just plain sucking at playing your class. At the end of the day, every player purchased the game and payed their subscription fee, and therefore deserves a crack at something a little special; no I'm not saying that we should give all the epics to people who don't have the 'skill' *cough* to do end-game raiding, I'm saying that the opportunity to gain a few bits of loot-joy that can't be bought from the AH should be the remit of all players who make the effort to run an instance every now and again.
No, this is not a binary issue--whether or not people should be free to choose "group friendly" specs or not, and as a result should the game bend to accommodate such "bad" players. The point is that so-called off-specs such as shadow priests are beneficial to a group when used properly (and if the player is honest and forthcoming about his spec). Throwing together a group comprised of "a shadow priest, [...] a fury warrior, two retribution paladins, and a hunter" for difficult endgame content would be a failure of group leadership, not that of the individual players who happened to choose DPS specs, nor a shortcoming of the game for being too hard. There is an argument to be made that some of TBC's endgame content has been overtuned, but I believe that's a separate issue and will be corrected in time as Blizzard produces new content, nerfs the old, improves itemization, etc. There is no need for an "easy mode" that trivializes content.
# posted by : 27/3/07 12:56
: 27/3/07 12:56
For "hanging out with friends", I'd say there's another factor just as important as classes/builds (possibly more so): "the game has to make it possible to play with your friends without regarding their class, talents, skill or how many of them are online" Who has precisely four friends to get together with when you fancy doing an instance? True, in WoW you can group up with one to four other people and do general world quests, but between getting together, working out which quests you all have, working out which pre-requisites are needed to get someone onto the same part as the rest of you, low percentage drop quests which take four times as long when there's four of you, etc. it doesn't tend to be particularly rewarding. Furthermore, as almost everything around your own level is solo-able, world questing tends to become very easy as a duo and utterly trivial with three or more, so it's not even as if you can just go grinding for the challenge.
I really think City of Heroes has it spot on; I know you played it for a while, Tobold, but for anyone who didn't: A team in City of Heroes can be from one to eight players, and almost all missions are in mini-instances. The opponents you face scale depending on the size of your team, and the team leader can select one of five difficulty levels to take account of non-optimal team compositions/builds/inexperienced players etc. On top of all that there's the Sidekick/Mentor system, allowing characters to play at a higher or lower effective level to group with friends.
While, in a very general way, I think you could something similar in WoW instances (adjust the size of spawns and their elite/normal mob composition depending on the number of players in a group and the difficulty level they picked), I don't think it would work because of the loot-centric nature of WoW. The risk/reward balance automatically comes in CoH, as much of the reward is from the experience/"influence" (CoH currency) gained from killing the mobs as you go, so as the number and level of the mobs scales with the team size/difficulty setting, so does the relative reward. Also, with most MMO mechanics, the more flexible something is, the more open it is to "gaming"/"min-maxing"/"theorycrafting"/whatever you want to call it, and there's plenty of "tweaks" that can be done in the CoH system (for example, starting a mission as a solo player, running around a map in stealth to force all the mobs to spawn in groups appropriate for a single player, then inviting the rest of the team in to come and fight them). That doesn't matter so much in CoH as loot scarcely exists (at the moment, be interesting to see if Issue 9 affects this), there's not much of an end game so there isn't really any point powerlevelling (not that this stops people from doing it), and PvP is very much a sideshow so relative character balance isn't so vital (again, not that this stops people complaining on the forums, but it's not as bad as 3,000 "OMG (item/talent/skill) IS OVAHPOWAHED NREF IT IT IS AN OUTRAGE" posts every five minutes on the WoW boards). Essentially, the entire game is much more "casual", but that's also its downfall, as it can get very repetitive. Swings and roundabouts...
I really think City of Heroes has it spot on; I know you played it for a while, Tobold, but for anyone who didn't: A team in City of Heroes can be from one to eight players, and almost all missions are in mini-instances. The opponents you face scale depending on the size of your team, and the team leader can select one of five difficulty levels to take account of non-optimal team compositions/builds/inexperienced players etc. On top of all that there's the Sidekick/Mentor system, allowing characters to play at a higher or lower effective level to group with friends.
While, in a very general way, I think you could something similar in WoW instances (adjust the size of spawns and their elite/normal mob composition depending on the number of players in a group and the difficulty level they picked), I don't think it would work because of the loot-centric nature of WoW. The risk/reward balance automatically comes in CoH, as much of the reward is from the experience/"influence" (CoH currency) gained from killing the mobs as you go, so as the number and level of the mobs scales with the team size/difficulty setting, so does the relative reward. Also, with most MMO mechanics, the more flexible something is, the more open it is to "gaming"/"min-maxing"/"theorycrafting"/whatever you want to call it, and there's plenty of "tweaks" that can be done in the CoH system (for example, starting a mission as a solo player, running around a map in stealth to force all the mobs to spawn in groups appropriate for a single player, then inviting the rest of the team in to come and fight them). That doesn't matter so much in CoH as loot scarcely exists (at the moment, be interesting to see if Issue 9 affects this), there's not much of an end game so there isn't really any point powerlevelling (not that this stops people from doing it), and PvP is very much a sideshow so relative character balance isn't so vital (again, not that this stops people complaining on the forums, but it's not as bad as 3,000 "OMG (item/talent/skill) IS OVAHPOWAHED NREF IT IT IS AN OUTRAGE" posts every five minutes on the WoW boards). Essentially, the entire game is much more "casual", but that's also its downfall, as it can get very repetitive. Swings and roundabouts...
Elene said: Throwing together a group comprised of "a shadow priest, [...] a fury warrior, two retribution paladins, and a hunter" for difficult endgame content would be a failure of group leadership, not that of the individual players who happened to choose DPS specs, nor a shortcoming of the game for being too hard.
Here you define "failure of group leadership" as failure to get the right people together to beat a given difficulty level. Where my "binary" alternative is coming from is saying that either you adjust your group to the content, or you adjust the content to the group. With me preferring the latter. Failure of group leadership should just mean "oh, I chose the wrong difficulty level, lets try again at a lower level", and not "oh, I chose the wrong people for my group, lets ditch them".
Zoso said: I really think City of Heroes has it spot on; I know you played it for a while, Tobold, but for anyone who didn't: A team in City of Heroes can be from one to eight players, and almost all missions are in mini-instances. The opponents you face scale depending on the size of your team, and the team leader can select one of five difficulty levels to take account of non-optimal team compositions/builds/inexperienced players etc. On top of all that there's the Sidekick/Mentor system, allowing characters to play at a higher or lower effective level to group with friends.
Yes, CoH/CoV is a good example of how it could work, enabling any mix and number of people to play together. I don't think the "very repetive" part is due to this user-friendly system. CoH/CoV is only repetitive because it has only very few tile sets from which random dungeons are built. If you took the variable difficulty level from CoH/CoV and combined it with the hand-crafted instances from WoW, you'd get a great game.
Here you define "failure of group leadership" as failure to get the right people together to beat a given difficulty level. Where my "binary" alternative is coming from is saying that either you adjust your group to the content, or you adjust the content to the group. With me preferring the latter. Failure of group leadership should just mean "oh, I chose the wrong difficulty level, lets try again at a lower level", and not "oh, I chose the wrong people for my group, lets ditch them".
Zoso said: I really think City of Heroes has it spot on; I know you played it for a while, Tobold, but for anyone who didn't: A team in City of Heroes can be from one to eight players, and almost all missions are in mini-instances. The opponents you face scale depending on the size of your team, and the team leader can select one of five difficulty levels to take account of non-optimal team compositions/builds/inexperienced players etc. On top of all that there's the Sidekick/Mentor system, allowing characters to play at a higher or lower effective level to group with friends.
Yes, CoH/CoV is a good example of how it could work, enabling any mix and number of people to play together. I don't think the "very repetive" part is due to this user-friendly system. CoH/CoV is only repetitive because it has only very few tile sets from which random dungeons are built. If you took the variable difficulty level from CoH/CoV and combined it with the hand-crafted instances from WoW, you'd get a great game.
"would be a failure of group leadership, not that of the individual players "
is the crux for me, in the reason PUGs don't often work.
I have met few very "bad" players. Most people play pretty well (it isn't that hard after all), and pretty much know their role.
But very seldom does anyone take up the leadership role properly. Everyone just sort of slots into doing what every usually do, which doesn't work that well in an imbalanced group. You end up trying to tank-and-spank everything, even without a proper tank.
The best PUGs I have been involved in were not always perfectly balanced, but the one common factor was someone took charge.
The number of really "good" players is also small. People who actually come up with the strategies that the rest of us watch on YouTube or read on fora and copy.
is the crux for me, in the reason PUGs don't often work.
I have met few very "bad" players. Most people play pretty well (it isn't that hard after all), and pretty much know their role.
But very seldom does anyone take up the leadership role properly. Everyone just sort of slots into doing what every usually do, which doesn't work that well in an imbalanced group. You end up trying to tank-and-spank everything, even without a proper tank.
The best PUGs I have been involved in were not always perfectly balanced, but the one common factor was someone took charge.
The number of really "good" players is also small. People who actually come up with the strategies that the rest of us watch on YouTube or read on fora and copy.
# posted by : 27/3/07 13:51
: 27/3/07 13:51
It varies with the situation. My main is a pretty tough horde toon and when I go out with him I can group with some other relatively tough folks and do difficult things. When I screw up, they abuse me and when they do something wrong, I do the same to them.
I have an ally toon that I use to play with some very nice RL friends. One of them is over 60 and he plays and learns the game slowly. When I play with him it's almost always a learning exercise. He has to be taught everything with a certain level of patience and niceness. Can't say something sarcastic to him after he wipes because he forgot that in a pinch a mage can blink out of danger ... he doesn't always remember that he has blink in the heat of battle. When he's a bit more experienced he'll learn to ignore the vigorous animation on the screen and pay more attention to the measurements and the text scrolling by, but right now he's enjoying being a tourist and doesn't mind leveling slowly. He's a good friend and I enjoy playing with him even if it is slow.
Both modes are cool and I play differently in each one. An error that would irritate me with a self-described uber player is negligible with a real-life friend.
NYGeek
I have an ally toon that I use to play with some very nice RL friends. One of them is over 60 and he plays and learns the game slowly. When I play with him it's almost always a learning exercise. He has to be taught everything with a certain level of patience and niceness. Can't say something sarcastic to him after he wipes because he forgot that in a pinch a mage can blink out of danger ... he doesn't always remember that he has blink in the heat of battle. When he's a bit more experienced he'll learn to ignore the vigorous animation on the screen and pay more attention to the measurements and the text scrolling by, but right now he's enjoying being a tourist and doesn't mind leveling slowly. He's a good friend and I enjoy playing with him even if it is slow.
Both modes are cool and I play differently in each one. An error that would irritate me with a self-described uber player is negligible with a real-life friend.
NYGeek
I'm a great deal more intrigued by this idea than I thought I would be when I first heard it.
It makes sense from a lot of perspectives. From the perspective of the content-creator (i.e., Blizzard) you're opening up previously-created content (instances) to players who otherwise wouldn't be able to access it (soloers). From the perspective of someone playing a solo/PvP build, they can finally do some grouping without inadvertantly causing wipes. And from the perspective of the people who use group-friendly builds, now there's more people around who can run an instance with you if you can't find a better PuG.
To supplement this, I'd suggest adding difficulty modes to the LFG system. I haven't been to the Outland yet so I don't know if this is already in place, but it seems necessary if it were to be implemented on a broad scale.
It makes sense from a lot of perspectives. From the perspective of the content-creator (i.e., Blizzard) you're opening up previously-created content (instances) to players who otherwise wouldn't be able to access it (soloers). From the perspective of someone playing a solo/PvP build, they can finally do some grouping without inadvertantly causing wipes. And from the perspective of the people who use group-friendly builds, now there's more people around who can run an instance with you if you can't find a better PuG.
To supplement this, I'd suggest adding difficulty modes to the LFG system. I haven't been to the Outland yet so I don't know if this is already in place, but it seems necessary if it were to be implemented on a broad scale.
# posted by : 27/3/07 14:33
: 27/3/07 14:33
Thats the first thing I thought of when they announced heroic dungeons. Easy mode dungeons, easy mode 40 man raids.
Some dungeons are a blast to plow through at max level. Im sure more than a few people have solo'd SM.
An easy mode dungeon would also give someone who is "just wasting time before the raid" something new to do with friends.
Some dungeons are a blast to plow through at max level. Im sure more than a few people have solo'd SM.
An easy mode dungeon would also give someone who is "just wasting time before the raid" something new to do with friends.
# posted by : 27/3/07 14:45
: 27/3/07 14:45
The current non heroic 5 mans are exactly what you described. They are easy with the 'perfect' group and can be finished with an average PUG of average ability and various specs.
Your example was you (or us) trying to group with a bad PUG. Three plate classes and not one of them will take the tank role? A hunter who can't control their pet at 70? That's about bottom of the barrel as far as PUGs go. The failure of that group to overcome the easy 5 mans out there now is simply the lack of player skill/knowledge and not spec.
This post really has nothing to do with talent builds. It's about having the ability to experience content with friends that have no idea how to play the game and you being too afraid to help them learn.
If your hypothetical group had even an inkling of how to play in a group, they would be able to take out any 5 man instance in the game. I'm not even talking about being super skilled here. Just a basic knowledge of group dynamics and the ability to not play selfishly (fit in with the group dynamic as needed) would allow you to have fun and blow through instances. If your friends want to solo in an instance while paying no attention to anything else, well you may want to reconsider grouping with them.
Your example was you (or us) trying to group with a bad PUG. Three plate classes and not one of them will take the tank role? A hunter who can't control their pet at 70? That's about bottom of the barrel as far as PUGs go. The failure of that group to overcome the easy 5 mans out there now is simply the lack of player skill/knowledge and not spec.
This post really has nothing to do with talent builds. It's about having the ability to experience content with friends that have no idea how to play the game and you being too afraid to help them learn.
If your hypothetical group had even an inkling of how to play in a group, they would be able to take out any 5 man instance in the game. I'm not even talking about being super skilled here. Just a basic knowledge of group dynamics and the ability to not play selfishly (fit in with the group dynamic as needed) would allow you to have fun and blow through instances. If your friends want to solo in an instance while paying no attention to anything else, well you may want to reconsider grouping with them.
# posted by : 27/3/07 15:08
: 27/3/07 15:08
I completely disagree with allowing an easier version of instances to allow for poorly designed groups.
I tanked Shadow Labs last night as a level 68 warrior who is 41/5/13. Spec'd for DPS, under level for the instance and we still completed it. We had two other people under 70, and a Ret paladin healing. We wiped a few times and I had trouble maintaining aggro on a few bosses due to taunt resists, but we created work-arounds to account for the problems and I had to stace dance to use all 3 taunts constantly.
Point being, Blizzard should not be dumbing down already playable content. I know plent of people who choose to play an off-spec and will head to IF every time they are needed to to respec for the run. Assuming it costs 50G for a respec, thats less than 1 hour of farming to do whats needed to accomplish an objective.
Lastly, allowing people to ezmode quests is just wrong. Especially end-tier quests. These are designed to train people for upcoming content. Example: Getting attuned to Karazhan is hard because Karazhan is hard. Allow people to attune on ezmode and they will, and then cry to Blizzard when the Raid is too hard for them. This is not a casual/ hardcore debate. You can play a limited amount of time each day and still be skilled enough to handle basic group functions to accomplish the quests and objectives in the game.
Hell, look in your general chat. People are already PUGing heroics. If they can PUG heroics, 5 off-spec friends should be able to figure it out on normal mode.
I tanked Shadow Labs last night as a level 68 warrior who is 41/5/13. Spec'd for DPS, under level for the instance and we still completed it. We had two other people under 70, and a Ret paladin healing. We wiped a few times and I had trouble maintaining aggro on a few bosses due to taunt resists, but we created work-arounds to account for the problems and I had to stace dance to use all 3 taunts constantly.
Point being, Blizzard should not be dumbing down already playable content. I know plent of people who choose to play an off-spec and will head to IF every time they are needed to to respec for the run. Assuming it costs 50G for a respec, thats less than 1 hour of farming to do whats needed to accomplish an objective.
Lastly, allowing people to ezmode quests is just wrong. Especially end-tier quests. These are designed to train people for upcoming content. Example: Getting attuned to Karazhan is hard because Karazhan is hard. Allow people to attune on ezmode and they will, and then cry to Blizzard when the Raid is too hard for them. This is not a casual/ hardcore debate. You can play a limited amount of time each day and still be skilled enough to handle basic group functions to accomplish the quests and objectives in the game.
Hell, look in your general chat. People are already PUGing heroics. If they can PUG heroics, 5 off-spec friends should be able to figure it out on normal mode.
Sometimes I wish we could run an instance the way it was done at lvl 20, doing Wailing Caverns with no healer, basically just a group of people running through killing things.
You can. Go back to the level 60 instances or Dire Maul with a group of friends and wreck the place. We do it to farm Large Brilliant Shards and to mess around with friends.
However, changing actual content to accomidate people who just want to screw around and be successful in current end tier instances is not a good design choice.
You can. Go back to the level 60 instances or Dire Maul with a group of friends and wreck the place. We do it to farm Large Brilliant Shards and to mess around with friends.
However, changing actual content to accomidate people who just want to screw around and be successful in current end tier instances is not a good design choice.
I think this post, and yesterdays post speak more about a "pug" the blizzards actual talent structure. I know from experience off-specs can be usefull in ful-filling their primary roll, esp when well geared and well played. A shadow priest who has a second set of +healing gear is going to heal a 5 man well enough to make it through the end game dungeons. I know from experience.
I think the main problem I encounter with pugs, is the pug itself. For example I finally got my mask of pennence last night from the steamvaults. This mask took 12 steamvault runs, I'm counting the full runs their. If I estimate because I didn't keep count, this mask took about 30 steamvault attempts. Attemps would be a group that disbands before we start, or in the middle, etc....
In a pug you get a lot of people in a rush, "my girls callin, afk"(10 minutes), bossy, not bossy enough, some are new and have no clue how to do this dungeon or boss, some that are just annoying as piss over vent. If you are a pugger there is no way to weed these people out upfront. So what do you do?
I think in any pug you need a good leader. Whoever has the little crown should know what is going to happen. The 13 year old who doesn't have a key to heroic ramparts shouldn't be leading a horic ramparts group. I remember back at level 60 my server exploded with pug ZG/MC/AQ20 runs. The same people would show up for these pugs, almost like a guild of the guildless. Different people hosted these pugs, the only time the pugs ever made it through the raid is when one certain person was leading. Its important for a pug leader to take action, upfront. If you have a tank who keeps pulling when everyone is OOM because he has to goto the icecream shoppe with grandma in 15 minutez, OMGLOLERSKATES. You need to boot him and find another tank. If you want a good pug feel free to take ownership of the pug. How many times have you used the LFG system to be matched with one other person who slides leader over to you and "You lead, gotta go afk1 minz, mom needz to chex0r email, ROFLCOPTER!@"
At the same point if its clear you all ready have someone who has an established leadership in your group, don't go trying to tell him and everyone else what to do, that just leads to confusion.
My last note on leading a pug is to have resources. This is super important now thanks to blizzard ruining the LFG system. I'd say 9/10 pugs split because they are missing one spot(usually tank, sometimes healer) So if you plan on pugging, and/or leading a pug, make a friends list. Add people who know their roll and have performed good in pugs with you before. Don't be exclusive to guild chat. When the warrior drops after the first wipe "GG repair bills you noobs, l2heal"(He ran out of LOS) then you let your group know you got a few options, try to get a new tank, if it takes longer then 10 minutes, call it a day. The more resources you have the better chance you will get a replacement with in those 10 minutes.
God damn.
I think the main problem I encounter with pugs, is the pug itself. For example I finally got my mask of pennence last night from the steamvaults. This mask took 12 steamvault runs, I'm counting the full runs their. If I estimate because I didn't keep count, this mask took about 30 steamvault attempts. Attemps would be a group that disbands before we start, or in the middle, etc....
In a pug you get a lot of people in a rush, "my girls callin, afk"(10 minutes), bossy, not bossy enough, some are new and have no clue how to do this dungeon or boss, some that are just annoying as piss over vent. If you are a pugger there is no way to weed these people out upfront. So what do you do?
I think in any pug you need a good leader. Whoever has the little crown should know what is going to happen. The 13 year old who doesn't have a key to heroic ramparts shouldn't be leading a horic ramparts group. I remember back at level 60 my server exploded with pug ZG/MC/AQ20 runs. The same people would show up for these pugs, almost like a guild of the guildless. Different people hosted these pugs, the only time the pugs ever made it through the raid is when one certain person was leading. Its important for a pug leader to take action, upfront. If you have a tank who keeps pulling when everyone is OOM because he has to goto the icecream shoppe with grandma in 15 minutez, OMGLOLERSKATES. You need to boot him and find another tank. If you want a good pug feel free to take ownership of the pug. How many times have you used the LFG system to be matched with one other person who slides leader over to you and "You lead, gotta go afk1 minz, mom needz to chex0r email, ROFLCOPTER!@"
At the same point if its clear you all ready have someone who has an established leadership in your group, don't go trying to tell him and everyone else what to do, that just leads to confusion.
My last note on leading a pug is to have resources. This is super important now thanks to blizzard ruining the LFG system. I'd say 9/10 pugs split because they are missing one spot(usually tank, sometimes healer) So if you plan on pugging, and/or leading a pug, make a friends list. Add people who know their roll and have performed good in pugs with you before. Don't be exclusive to guild chat. When the warrior drops after the first wipe "GG repair bills you noobs, l2heal"(He ran out of LOS) then you let your group know you got a few options, try to get a new tank, if it takes longer then 10 minutes, call it a day. The more resources you have the better chance you will get a replacement with in those 10 minutes.
God damn.
Sorry last comment... why is everyone here assuming a shadow priest can't heal, a fury warrior can't tank and a ret pally can't heal?
I don't see how a group made up of a shad priest, 2 ret pallys a fury warrior and a hunter would not be able to roll any available content pre-Karazhan...
Shadow Priests *can* drop out of shadow form and cast holy spells. Any decent shadow priest has a healing set. So what about them, makes it impossible to heal.
Retribution Pallys *can* heal. In fact they lose almost nothing in the way of functionality of healing except the crit heal abilities and some nice buff. Lets assume they have smaller mana pools due to gear issues... well, sort out a heal/ dps rotation between the two and you are good to go.
Fury warriors *can* use a shield and a 1HD and go Defensive. We use a DPS warrior as an off-tank in Karazhan, so why can't yours tank Steamvaults?
If what you meant to say is, they don't *choose* to play the role needed for group success, then they have chosen failure, it wasn't a design flaw, and if they didn't bother to get a complmentary gear set for jut those occasions, then they really do just need to learn to play.
I don't see how a group made up of a shad priest, 2 ret pallys a fury warrior and a hunter would not be able to roll any available content pre-Karazhan...
Shadow Priests *can* drop out of shadow form and cast holy spells. Any decent shadow priest has a healing set. So what about them, makes it impossible to heal.
Retribution Pallys *can* heal. In fact they lose almost nothing in the way of functionality of healing except the crit heal abilities and some nice buff. Lets assume they have smaller mana pools due to gear issues... well, sort out a heal/ dps rotation between the two and you are good to go.
Fury warriors *can* use a shield and a 1HD and go Defensive. We use a DPS warrior as an off-tank in Karazhan, so why can't yours tank Steamvaults?
If what you meant to say is, they don't *choose* to play the role needed for group success, then they have chosen failure, it wasn't a design flaw, and if they didn't bother to get a complmentary gear set for jut those occasions, then they really do just need to learn to play.
@ cyndre
I'm a 70 holy pally. I have been specced ret in the past. If you aren't holy you loose a ton of amazing healing talents. A ret pally can heal, but the difference is night and day.
Quick list of what holy gives a pally:
-12% boost to healing
-Spell dmg/healing based on int
-Gaurenteed critical hit
-refund of all mana on critical heals
-holy shock(rather stupid healing spell but good for dmg)
-5% crit on holy spells
-6% crit on holy light
-50% reduction on mana for spells for 15 seconds
-lights gace, basically making holy light a 2 second cast after the first cast of holy light. This is my favorite talent right now. Spamming 2 second heals that hit for 4k, this makes holy(and only holy) paladins amazing healers.
Ret or protection pallys miss out on all of that. You can still get a couple of those talents if you spec partial holy, the better ones are higher up in the tree, yeeehargagagagagag. Ret pallys can't heal for beans also, shadow priest can atleast heal decently. Fury warriors seem to die super quick, most likely due to spec as well as gear.
I'm a 70 holy pally. I have been specced ret in the past. If you aren't holy you loose a ton of amazing healing talents. A ret pally can heal, but the difference is night and day.
Quick list of what holy gives a pally:
-12% boost to healing
-Spell dmg/healing based on int
-Gaurenteed critical hit
-refund of all mana on critical heals
-holy shock(rather stupid healing spell but good for dmg)
-5% crit on holy spells
-6% crit on holy light
-50% reduction on mana for spells for 15 seconds
-lights gace, basically making holy light a 2 second cast after the first cast of holy light. This is my favorite talent right now. Spamming 2 second heals that hit for 4k, this makes holy(and only holy) paladins amazing healers.
Ret or protection pallys miss out on all of that. You can still get a couple of those talents if you spec partial holy, the better ones are higher up in the tree, yeeehargagagagagag. Ret pallys can't heal for beans also, shadow priest can atleast heal decently. Fury warriors seem to die super quick, most likely due to spec as well as gear.
If what you meant to say is, they don't *choose* to play the role needed for group success, then they have chosen failure, it wasn't a design flaw, and if they didn't bother to get a complmentary gear set for jut those occasions, then they really do just need to learn to play.
At which point we are back to yesterday's post, forcing people to play the role needed for group success.
Let's assume that you are right and shadow priests can heal, fury tanks can tank, etc., as long as they learned2play. But what if the group leader looks the character up in the Armory and kicks him out of his group for being "wrong spec"? Don't tell me that is absurd, there was a story on WoWinsider where somebody got kicked out of his guild because his guild leader found him having the wrong spec in the Armory.
Point being, Blizzard should not be dumbing down already playable content.
You state this several times in different versions, without ever saying *why* Blizzard shouldn't offer easy mode. Your argument is "I know how to play, so I don't need easy mode, so Blizzard shouldn't introduce it", which is a bit selfish. What would it hurt you if people that play less well than you can visit the same dungeons as you, only in easy mode?
Example: Getting attuned to Karazhan is hard because Karazhan is hard.
So, lets offer Karazhan in easy mode too. I've been to Karazhan and it plays pretty much like a heroic mode 5-man. You don't even start if you don't have just the right group composition, and then everybody needs to play very well all the time, or its a wipe. How many of the 8 million WoW players will be able to beat that? I'd say less than 10%. And less than 1% will ever see Mount Hyjal. Why should that be so? Why not offer the same content in easy mode for a much larger audience, instead of wasting all that developer's effort on so few players?
At which point we are back to yesterday's post, forcing people to play the role needed for group success.
Let's assume that you are right and shadow priests can heal, fury tanks can tank, etc., as long as they learned2play. But what if the group leader looks the character up in the Armory and kicks him out of his group for being "wrong spec"? Don't tell me that is absurd, there was a story on WoWinsider where somebody got kicked out of his guild because his guild leader found him having the wrong spec in the Armory.
Point being, Blizzard should not be dumbing down already playable content.
You state this several times in different versions, without ever saying *why* Blizzard shouldn't offer easy mode. Your argument is "I know how to play, so I don't need easy mode, so Blizzard shouldn't introduce it", which is a bit selfish. What would it hurt you if people that play less well than you can visit the same dungeons as you, only in easy mode?
Example: Getting attuned to Karazhan is hard because Karazhan is hard.
So, lets offer Karazhan in easy mode too. I've been to Karazhan and it plays pretty much like a heroic mode 5-man. You don't even start if you don't have just the right group composition, and then everybody needs to play very well all the time, or its a wipe. How many of the 8 million WoW players will be able to beat that? I'd say less than 10%. And less than 1% will ever see Mount Hyjal. Why should that be so? Why not offer the same content in easy mode for a much larger audience, instead of wasting all that developer's effort on so few players?
Let's assume that you are right and shadow priests can heal, fury tanks can tank, etc., as long as they learned2play.
You made an off-spec group design that you intentionally knew wouldnt have anyone tanking or anyone healing. I countered with "they could suck it up and trade off DPS/ Healing, because you know, they want to succeed. This isn't Chucky Cheese. Not everyone gets a ribbon at the end of the race. You actually have to earn it. I contend that EVERYONE can earn it, no matter how they choose to spec as long as they are willing to do whats nessesary. In that example, I would have the Ret Pallys heal with the Shadow Piest using VE and VT to increase the mana regen of the Pally and also off-heal through the debuff.
But what if the group leader looks the character up in the Armory and kicks him out of his group for being "wrong spec"? Don't tell me that is absurd, there was a story on WoWinsider where somebody got kicked out of his guild because his guild leader found him having the wrong spec in the Armory.
Tobold, one moron who runs his guild like stalinist russia is hardly an epidemic. As you probably know, my guild is preping for Serpentshrine, and we don't enforce spec desitions. People play how they want, and if they are skilled and edicated, more power to them. So that isn't a game design flaw, it is human stupidity and can't be accounted for in an honest discussion.
You state this several times in different versions, without ever saying *why* Blizzard shouldn't offer easy mode. Your argument is "I know how to play, so I don't need easy mode, so Blizzard shouldn't introduce it", which is a bit selfish. What would it hurt you if people that play less well than you can visit the same dungeons as you, only in easy mode?
You are assuming Karazhan is difficult. Its not. It requires people on their toes and working together, but its not like a group of 10 skilled players who don;t know each other couldn't go in there and complete it. I wager we will be PUGing it in 3 to 4 weeks on our undergeared alts. Everyone can expeience it, and I know lots of small very skilled guilds that are VERY casual and are working their way through it right now.
How many of the 8 million WoW players will be able to beat that? I'd say less than 10%. And less than 1% will ever see Mount Hyjal. Why should that be so? Why not offer the same content in easy mode for a much larger audience, instead of wasting all that developer's effort on so few players?
What % of the playerbase got into Molten Core by the end of 1.0? 80%?
Maybe 60% were in BWL?
You are assuming that todays numbers are going to hold constant for the rest of time, and you are just wrong. People forget it took time to get smaller or less organized guilds to succeed in even UBRS, let alone in MC, but by the end, unguilded PUGs had Ony loot and MC epics.
We raid three nights per week. Any casual guild could do that. Its not like this stuff is rocket science and we are geniuses... Everyone can accomplish what we do, but if they lack the organization it just may take longer. You are suggesting that Bliizard should make it so that no one has to try hard to accomplish anything. It should not be easy, but it should be doable with a little effort... and it is.
You made an off-spec group design that you intentionally knew wouldnt have anyone tanking or anyone healing. I countered with "they could suck it up and trade off DPS/ Healing, because you know, they want to succeed. This isn't Chucky Cheese. Not everyone gets a ribbon at the end of the race. You actually have to earn it. I contend that EVERYONE can earn it, no matter how they choose to spec as long as they are willing to do whats nessesary. In that example, I would have the Ret Pallys heal with the Shadow Piest using VE and VT to increase the mana regen of the Pally and also off-heal through the debuff.
But what if the group leader looks the character up in the Armory and kicks him out of his group for being "wrong spec"? Don't tell me that is absurd, there was a story on WoWinsider where somebody got kicked out of his guild because his guild leader found him having the wrong spec in the Armory.
Tobold, one moron who runs his guild like stalinist russia is hardly an epidemic. As you probably know, my guild is preping for Serpentshrine, and we don't enforce spec desitions. People play how they want, and if they are skilled and edicated, more power to them. So that isn't a game design flaw, it is human stupidity and can't be accounted for in an honest discussion.
You state this several times in different versions, without ever saying *why* Blizzard shouldn't offer easy mode. Your argument is "I know how to play, so I don't need easy mode, so Blizzard shouldn't introduce it", which is a bit selfish. What would it hurt you if people that play less well than you can visit the same dungeons as you, only in easy mode?
You are assuming Karazhan is difficult. Its not. It requires people on their toes and working together, but its not like a group of 10 skilled players who don;t know each other couldn't go in there and complete it. I wager we will be PUGing it in 3 to 4 weeks on our undergeared alts. Everyone can expeience it, and I know lots of small very skilled guilds that are VERY casual and are working their way through it right now.
How many of the 8 million WoW players will be able to beat that? I'd say less than 10%. And less than 1% will ever see Mount Hyjal. Why should that be so? Why not offer the same content in easy mode for a much larger audience, instead of wasting all that developer's effort on so few players?
What % of the playerbase got into Molten Core by the end of 1.0? 80%?
Maybe 60% were in BWL?
You are assuming that todays numbers are going to hold constant for the rest of time, and you are just wrong. People forget it took time to get smaller or less organized guilds to succeed in even UBRS, let alone in MC, but by the end, unguilded PUGs had Ony loot and MC epics.
We raid three nights per week. Any casual guild could do that. Its not like this stuff is rocket science and we are geniuses... Everyone can accomplish what we do, but if they lack the organization it just may take longer. You are suggesting that Bliizard should make it so that no one has to try hard to accomplish anything. It should not be easy, but it should be doable with a little effort... and it is.
Ret or protection pallys miss out on all of that. You can still get a couple of those talents if you spec partial holy, the better ones are higher up in the tree, yeeehargagagagagag. Ret pallys can't heal for beans also, shadow priest can atleast heal decently. Fury warriors seem to die super quick, most likely due to spec as well as gear.
Those defiencies are gear related more than likely. The talents in the Prot tree that seperate a tank from a DPS'er really only serve to increase aggro gen or add damage mitiagion in small doses. Example beign 3/3 Defiance is rather useful for building threat quickly. However it is not nessesary unless you are tanking with very well geared warlocks, Mages or shadow priests in your group.
As for Ret Pallys not able to heal, I also content it is because they don't have healing gear. I know plenty of Ret pallys that do just fine healing, especially is there is a Shadow Priest in the group. As I said earlier, a Ret pally successfully healer a DPS warrior through shadow labs last night and we were 68 and 69 level respectivly.
These gear issues are easily ammendable also, as quest items and readily available greens should provide a sufficent off-set for these occasions.
Those defiencies are gear related more than likely. The talents in the Prot tree that seperate a tank from a DPS'er really only serve to increase aggro gen or add damage mitiagion in small doses. Example beign 3/3 Defiance is rather useful for building threat quickly. However it is not nessesary unless you are tanking with very well geared warlocks, Mages or shadow priests in your group.
As for Ret Pallys not able to heal, I also content it is because they don't have healing gear. I know plenty of Ret pallys that do just fine healing, especially is there is a Shadow Priest in the group. As I said earlier, a Ret pally successfully healer a DPS warrior through shadow labs last night and we were 68 and 69 level respectivly.
These gear issues are easily ammendable also, as quest items and readily available greens should provide a sufficent off-set for these occasions.
What % of the playerbase got into Molten Core by the end of 1.0? 80%?
Maybe 60% were in BWL?
Lol, you're dreaming. Maybe 20% of players in MC at the end of 1.0, and 5% in BWL, but not more. You don't even seem to be *aware* of the millions of people that play WoW without ever setting a foot into a dungeon. My wife hit level 60 for the first time after 2 years of WoW and a dozen different characters, and she hasn't even been to Scarlet Monastery yet, ever. The only dungeons she has seen were those I could run her through with one of my characters, and now that she's playing Alliance I can't even do that. And there is a huge number of players like her out there, the people you never see because they don't apply to your guild or group, and who play a lot less than you.
Maybe 60% were in BWL?
Lol, you're dreaming. Maybe 20% of players in MC at the end of 1.0, and 5% in BWL, but not more. You don't even seem to be *aware* of the millions of people that play WoW without ever setting a foot into a dungeon. My wife hit level 60 for the first time after 2 years of WoW and a dozen different characters, and she hasn't even been to Scarlet Monastery yet, ever. The only dungeons she has seen were those I could run her through with one of my characters, and now that she's playing Alliance I can't even do that. And there is a huge number of players like her out there, the people you never see because they don't apply to your guild or group, and who play a lot less than you.
Allow people to attune on ezmode and they will, and then cry to Blizzard when the Raid is too hard for them
You are suggesting that Bliizard should make it so that no one has to try hard to accomplish anything.
So what you're saying is, Blizzard shouldn't have retuned Gruul so only "the most successful Uberguilds" could do it?
Because, you know, the first couple of paragraphs here seem to contradict you.
You are suggesting that Bliizard should make it so that no one has to try hard to accomplish anything.
So what you're saying is, Blizzard shouldn't have retuned Gruul so only "the most successful Uberguilds" could do it?
Because, you know, the first couple of paragraphs here seem to contradict you.
Lol, you're dreaming. Maybe 20% of players in MC at the end of 1.0, and 5% in BWL, but not more. You don't even seem to be *aware* of the millions of people that play WoW without ever setting a foot into a dungeon. My wife hit level 60 for the first time after 2 years of WoW and a dozen different characters, and she hasn't even been to Scarlet Monastery yet, ever. The only dungeons she has seen were those I could run her through with one of my characters, and now that she's playing Alliance I can't even do that. And there is a huge number of players like her out there, the people you never see because they don't apply to your guild or group, and who play a lot less than you.
Your wife *can't* go to instances, or has chosen not to? There is a difference.
Maybe we should allow people to set their level too, so that a group of 10 level 20 players can see Karazhan too? Why should they have to spend all that time getting to 70? Don't they deserve to see content that you see, Tobold, even though they don't have the same time to level as you do?
So what you're saying is, Blizzard shouldn't have retuned Gruul so only "the most successful Uberguilds" could do it?
Because, you know, the first couple of paragraphs here seem to contradict you.
Retuning an encounter and making playable content have an easy setting are two completly differnt design situations. Content is retuned to find a playable yet challanging balance and it will be steadily retuned until it is possible for all people to beat it. Gruul will be PUG'd with 15 people in the next six months. Thats just the way MMO endgame progresses. That is a valid design choice and will make the content available for everyone.
What Tobold is proposing is just make the game have an easy setting so everyone can go hit up Mt. Hyjal right away. That is a terrible design choice as it takes any accomplishment laddering out the MMO endgame which is what motivates the vast majority of players to continue playing.
People who arent able to go to Karazhan seem to feel strongly about wantin to go... perhaphs that desire is what keeps them logging in and paying month after month running the same things ovr and over to get "qualified" so to speak? In Tobolds design, we would all be done every available content by now, and then what motivation remains to keep subscribing or playing?
Your wife *can't* go to instances, or has chosen not to? There is a difference.
Maybe we should allow people to set their level too, so that a group of 10 level 20 players can see Karazhan too? Why should they have to spend all that time getting to 70? Don't they deserve to see content that you see, Tobold, even though they don't have the same time to level as you do?
So what you're saying is, Blizzard shouldn't have retuned Gruul so only "the most successful Uberguilds" could do it?
Because, you know, the first couple of paragraphs here seem to contradict you.
Retuning an encounter and making playable content have an easy setting are two completly differnt design situations. Content is retuned to find a playable yet challanging balance and it will be steadily retuned until it is possible for all people to beat it. Gruul will be PUG'd with 15 people in the next six months. Thats just the way MMO endgame progresses. That is a valid design choice and will make the content available for everyone.
What Tobold is proposing is just make the game have an easy setting so everyone can go hit up Mt. Hyjal right away. That is a terrible design choice as it takes any accomplishment laddering out the MMO endgame which is what motivates the vast majority of players to continue playing.
People who arent able to go to Karazhan seem to feel strongly about wantin to go... perhaphs that desire is what keeps them logging in and paying month after month running the same things ovr and over to get "qualified" so to speak? In Tobolds design, we would all be done every available content by now, and then what motivation remains to keep subscribing or playing?
I remember reading an interview with Tigole or another blizz dev, in which they stated that about 40-50% of WoW players had experienced Molten Core by the time 2.0 was implemented. So no, you're wrong, tobold. Your wife is also an extreme example. The vast majority of players tend to follow the ingame hints and quests - and those naturally lead you to the respective dungeons for each level range.
# posted by : 27/3/07 17:19
: 27/3/07 17:19
Of course, Tobold's guess at how many people had seen MC was a lot closer than yours, but hell, let's ignore that, right?
# posted by : 27/3/07 17:25
: 27/3/07 17:25
So your wife isn't a group player and prefers solo and outdoor content. Why does that have a place in a discussion regarding specs and effectiveness in 5 mans?
If your wife has a desire to start 5 manning, then she needs to learn how to function in a 5 man. She needs to be aware of the pros and cons of her spec and know how that works with the group. She shouldn't be able to take a solo mentality into an instance and succeed.
It's just the basic function of playing a game. She doesn't need to be an optimal spec or super experienced player to function well in a group. She just needs to understand the concepts of tank, healer, DPS, agg and CC.
Saying that a player needs to learn how to function in an instance is akin to requiring optimal specs is a ridiculous argument. One has no bearing on the other.
I still don't see how this discuss has anything to do with specs. Again, it seems to be a discussion of opening content to more people, regardless of their ability to adapt to the playstyle required for said content. Maybe in your mind people who off spec are akin to newbie players who never really adjusted to the simple play mechanics of WoW. I don't know, just speculating. From your outrageous hypothetical group, this seems to be the case.
If your wife has a desire to start 5 manning, then she needs to learn how to function in a 5 man. She needs to be aware of the pros and cons of her spec and know how that works with the group. She shouldn't be able to take a solo mentality into an instance and succeed.
It's just the basic function of playing a game. She doesn't need to be an optimal spec or super experienced player to function well in a group. She just needs to understand the concepts of tank, healer, DPS, agg and CC.
Saying that a player needs to learn how to function in an instance is akin to requiring optimal specs is a ridiculous argument. One has no bearing on the other.
I still don't see how this discuss has anything to do with specs. Again, it seems to be a discussion of opening content to more people, regardless of their ability to adapt to the playstyle required for said content. Maybe in your mind people who off spec are akin to newbie players who never really adjusted to the simple play mechanics of WoW. I don't know, just speculating. From your outrageous hypothetical group, this seems to be the case.
# posted by : 27/3/07 17:26
: 27/3/07 17:26
Of course, Tobold's guess at how many people had seen MC was a lot closer than yours, but hell, let's ignore that, right?
I'd like to see the statistics when boiled down to "What percentage of Level 60 players experienced Molten Core."
In Tobold's defense and my defense, Tigole is going to post statistics that make them look good. Is he counting active and inactive subs, is he counting trials, is he just counting level 60s or all level ranges? Is there an activation date or cut-off in his figures. How about old realms to new realms...
Never take a devs statistcs at face value without first looking at the underlying assumptions they used to get those numbers.
In either cae, I stick by my facts. On my server, which is an old server, new 60s with no guild were in Molten Core and Ony PUGs all the time. Everyone had T2 helms and a few other pieces.
I'd like to see the statistics when boiled down to "What percentage of Level 60 players experienced Molten Core."
In Tobold's defense and my defense, Tigole is going to post statistics that make them look good. Is he counting active and inactive subs, is he counting trials, is he just counting level 60s or all level ranges? Is there an activation date or cut-off in his figures. How about old realms to new realms...
Never take a devs statistcs at face value without first looking at the underlying assumptions they used to get those numbers.
In either cae, I stick by my facts. On my server, which is an old server, new 60s with no guild were in Molten Core and Ony PUGs all the time. Everyone had T2 helms and a few other pieces.
Considering the 40-50% was my first comments post, no, tobolds would not be alot closer than mine since I did not make an estimate. I was pointing out that a lot more people had experienced endgame than Tobold guessed.
Here's my own guess. 5% in BWL? At the end of classic WoW, 3% had experienced Naxx. You're saying that BWL to Naxx difficulty was so compareable that only 2% more of the populace experienced BWL than those in Naxx? Give me a break, my server was hosting AQ40 pugs prior to 2.0, and we'd hardly qualify as one of the hardcore progression servers.
Here's my own guess. 5% in BWL? At the end of classic WoW, 3% had experienced Naxx. You're saying that BWL to Naxx difficulty was so compareable that only 2% more of the populace experienced BWL than those in Naxx? Give me a break, my server was hosting AQ40 pugs prior to 2.0, and we'd hardly qualify as one of the hardcore progression servers.
# posted by : 27/3/07 17:32
: 27/3/07 17:32
I experienced MC, twice, for a total of about 30 minutes. I suppose by Tigole's math I'm part of that 40-50% that experienced MC.
I have about 6 rl friends, all of whom play 3-5 days per week and *none* of whom (besides me) *ever* experienced MC. Granted, it's a small sample size, but I don't know *anyone* who's been to Karahzan either.
From my experience, I doubt 20% ever saw MC.
I have about 6 rl friends, all of whom play 3-5 days per week and *none* of whom (besides me) *ever* experienced MC. Granted, it's a small sample size, but I don't know *anyone* who's been to Karahzan either.
From my experience, I doubt 20% ever saw MC.
# posted by : 27/3/07 17:35
: 27/3/07 17:35
You and your 6 friends on a server of a few thousand...
Recall running around Orgrimmar. The vast majority of lvl 60 players by the time 2.0 was released had AT LEAST a few pieces of tier 1.
Somewhat similar to you, I don't know *anyone* who has not been up to at least curator in Karazhan.
Recall running around Orgrimmar. The vast majority of lvl 60 players by the time 2.0 was released had AT LEAST a few pieces of tier 1.
Somewhat similar to you, I don't know *anyone* who has not been up to at least curator in Karazhan.
# posted by : 27/3/07 17:45
: 27/3/07 17:45
Unless someone can link something different, the closest Tigole quote I can find is from an NY Times interview in May 2006:
Q. Overall, what percentage of level 60 players do you think have killed Ragnaros?
A. I don’t have firm statistics, but my gut feeling is around 25 percent.
Q. And what about Nefarian?
A. From the gut, I’d say maybe 15 percent.
So, (i) that's a "gut feeling" (allowing both sides to say "well it's obviously too high/low"), and (ii) that's percentage of *level 60* players, not all players.
Q. Overall, what percentage of level 60 players do you think have killed Ragnaros?
A. I don’t have firm statistics, but my gut feeling is around 25 percent.
Q. And what about Nefarian?
A. From the gut, I’d say maybe 15 percent.
So, (i) that's a "gut feeling" (allowing both sides to say "well it's obviously too high/low"), and (ii) that's percentage of *level 60* players, not all players.
That's the point, people tend to hang out with other people that have similar play habits, unless its a spouse or relative. So the people that raid a lot only know other people that raid a lot and think everyone raids. The non-raiders just pass under the radar.
Running around in Orgrimmar and looking at people's epics is also a typical example of how to get a skewed view of statistics. The frequent raiders tend to be people that spend a lot more time in the game than the casuals, so by only looking at people online you automatically undercount the casuals.
What Tobold is proposing is just make the game have an easy setting so everyone can go hit up Mt. Hyjal right away. That is a terrible design choice as it takes any accomplishment laddering out the MMO endgame which is what motivates the vast majority of players to continue playing.
I still don't get your point. Even if every raid dungeon up to Mount Hyjal had an easy setting, you'd still need to do them all in order and do all the attunements to get to Hyjal, which isn't "right away" for anyone. And even then you only did it on easy mode, and only got the easy mode rewards, no epics. So the laddering of the end game is still there, no motivation lost. In fact its a lot more motivating to have beaten a place in easy mode and striving to advance to normal mode and epics now, than having the impression that "I'll never get there" from the start.
I know I'm never going to get to Mount Hyjal, and I'm already playing more than average and am spec'd right for my group role. I find Karazhan stressful, so I'm avoiding it, as I can't see any progress for me beyond that. If there was an easy mode for raids, so casual guilds could go raiding, I'd still be playing WoW next month, and not switching to LotRO. As it is all that is lost content for me, just like Naxxramas was lost content for me.
Running around in Orgrimmar and looking at people's epics is also a typical example of how to get a skewed view of statistics. The frequent raiders tend to be people that spend a lot more time in the game than the casuals, so by only looking at people online you automatically undercount the casuals.
What Tobold is proposing is just make the game have an easy setting so everyone can go hit up Mt. Hyjal right away. That is a terrible design choice as it takes any accomplishment laddering out the MMO endgame which is what motivates the vast majority of players to continue playing.
I still don't get your point. Even if every raid dungeon up to Mount Hyjal had an easy setting, you'd still need to do them all in order and do all the attunements to get to Hyjal, which isn't "right away" for anyone. And even then you only did it on easy mode, and only got the easy mode rewards, no epics. So the laddering of the end game is still there, no motivation lost. In fact its a lot more motivating to have beaten a place in easy mode and striving to advance to normal mode and epics now, than having the impression that "I'll never get there" from the start.
I know I'm never going to get to Mount Hyjal, and I'm already playing more than average and am spec'd right for my group role. I find Karazhan stressful, so I'm avoiding it, as I can't see any progress for me beyond that. If there was an easy mode for raids, so casual guilds could go raiding, I'd still be playing WoW next month, and not switching to LotRO. As it is all that is lost content for me, just like Naxxramas was lost content for me.
I find Karazhan stressful, so I'm avoiding it, as I can't see any progress for me beyond that.
I didn't mean to get into a playstyle debate with you Tobold, but I'm not sure how to reasonable debate a prespective like this...
I found Karazhan stressful the first few weeks also, but eventually it becomes the same button mashing grind as any other instance, when you get used to it.
You will never progress past the stressful instance until you get it on farm and the gear it provides brings you up to the level of the next raid zone.
That is a playstyle distinction, though. I interpret what you are saying as you want to experience the content without the stress of it being difficult. You have indicated that you *could* experience it if you wanted to, but choose not too. I'm not sure how that is different than what I'm saying?
I didn't mean to get into a playstyle debate with you Tobold, but I'm not sure how to reasonable debate a prespective like this...
I found Karazhan stressful the first few weeks also, but eventually it becomes the same button mashing grind as any other instance, when you get used to it.
You will never progress past the stressful instance until you get it on farm and the gear it provides brings you up to the level of the next raid zone.
That is a playstyle distinction, though. I interpret what you are saying as you want to experience the content without the stress of it being difficult. You have indicated that you *could* experience it if you wanted to, but choose not too. I'm not sure how that is different than what I'm saying?
Well, I'm borderline raider, I have the luxury to be able to choose my playstyle. But people who play a lot less often won't be able to get into a raiding guild, or not be able to get raid spots.
A guild could have MC on farm and drag their less dedicated players through it to give them epics. I don't see that working in Karazhan, there isn't much room for tourists in a 10-man raid.
A guild could have MC on farm and drag their less dedicated players through it to give them epics. I don't see that working in Karazhan, there isn't much room for tourists in a 10-man raid.
And why are you avoiding my question, Cyndre? What would it hurt you if somebody else could visit Karazhan in easy mode, as long as he didn't get the same reward as you?
And why are you avoiding my question, Cyndre? What would it hurt you if somebody else could visit Karazhan in easy mode, as long as he didn't get the same reward as you?
Because I believe people who want to be the best, experience the best should have to work for what they want. Turning top tier content into a tourist attraction is invalidating the accomplishment for those who do invest whats nessesary to get there.
And what you are asking for already exists in the game. The content will be tuned for the average player as time goes on, and everyone will be able to PUG it. That people lack patience and dedication to accomplish those goals is their own issue to resolve.
Why are you insisting that everyone must be able to experience everything at the same pace? MMOs are virtual worlds and there is no disclaimer saying it is an equal opportunity experience on the box. You are in a persistant world, and as such, those who learn the world at different paces are going to advance on different performance schedules. Why should it be any different?
You seem to think that LoTRO or the 'next big thing' will revolutionize this debate. It just levels the playing field for the first week. After a week, the Turbine boards are going to be awash with compliants that the Pumpkin Patch should be available to all hobbits, not just the ones who are in the big guilds. This is fundamental MMO and virtual world design, and fundamental player bitching since the damn of the industry.
I am not saying Joe Casual shouldn't get to experience Mt. Hyjal, but I damn sure think Death and Taxes who live and breathe raiding, deserve to experience it before I do on my casual raid schedule.
Because I believe people who want to be the best, experience the best should have to work for what they want. Turning top tier content into a tourist attraction is invalidating the accomplishment for those who do invest whats nessesary to get there.
And what you are asking for already exists in the game. The content will be tuned for the average player as time goes on, and everyone will be able to PUG it. That people lack patience and dedication to accomplish those goals is their own issue to resolve.
Why are you insisting that everyone must be able to experience everything at the same pace? MMOs are virtual worlds and there is no disclaimer saying it is an equal opportunity experience on the box. You are in a persistant world, and as such, those who learn the world at different paces are going to advance on different performance schedules. Why should it be any different?
You seem to think that LoTRO or the 'next big thing' will revolutionize this debate. It just levels the playing field for the first week. After a week, the Turbine boards are going to be awash with compliants that the Pumpkin Patch should be available to all hobbits, not just the ones who are in the big guilds. This is fundamental MMO and virtual world design, and fundamental player bitching since the damn of the industry.
I am not saying Joe Casual shouldn't get to experience Mt. Hyjal, but I damn sure think Death and Taxes who live and breathe raiding, deserve to experience it before I do on my casual raid schedule.
(I'm the guy with the 6 rl friends who haven't experienced MC.)
On the (on average) 4 nights that I can play, I've generally got about 3 hours. Weekends I've got longer blocks of time, but I know it's limited by other commitments. Besides the level 1 bank alt you'd never see my characters in Orgrimmar, period. You *might* see one of my characters in Shattrath, and even then if I'm in Shattrath for more than 5 minutes I'm wasting precious playtime. If I'm solo I'm immediately off to wherever I'm going, and I'm not willing to wait long for a group -- I'll look for a group while I do something else constructive.
If I'm on 180 minutes per night, and I'm only in town 5 minutes of that at most... You could probably hang out in a capital city for weeks and not see any of my characters...
On the (on average) 4 nights that I can play, I've generally got about 3 hours. Weekends I've got longer blocks of time, but I know it's limited by other commitments. Besides the level 1 bank alt you'd never see my characters in Orgrimmar, period. You *might* see one of my characters in Shattrath, and even then if I'm in Shattrath for more than 5 minutes I'm wasting precious playtime. If I'm solo I'm immediately off to wherever I'm going, and I'm not willing to wait long for a group -- I'll look for a group while I do something else constructive.
If I'm on 180 minutes per night, and I'm only in town 5 minutes of that at most... You could probably hang out in a capital city for weeks and not see any of my characters...
# posted by : 27/3/07 18:59
: 27/3/07 18:59
@ cyndre:
As for Ret Pallys not able to heal, I also content it is because they don't have healing gear. I know plenty of Ret pallys that do just fine healing, especially is there is a Shadow Priest in the group. As I said earlier, a Ret pally successfully healer a DPS warrior through shadow labs last night and we were 68 and 69 level respectivly.
Ok I'm calling you out on this. No way. The only way this would of happened if you also had with you three well geared level 70's who dished out enough dps so that the dps tank lived longer then the dps paladin mana. With a group of all 70's I had some "O-sh*t" moments when I healed that place. Maybe you had an off healer? Something you didn't mention. Could it be that this was a guild run of exprienced raiders? Because we are talking about you generic pug I believe. A generic pug would be pretty stupid to bring two non-70's to shadow labs, esp if they aren't specced right. Something is missing from your story.
Experience of the dungeon and the game will out-weight gear, but the average pug doesn't have that. I think that is what Ol' tee-bone is gettin at. Shazzam!
As for Ret Pallys not able to heal, I also content it is because they don't have healing gear. I know plenty of Ret pallys that do just fine healing, especially is there is a Shadow Priest in the group. As I said earlier, a Ret pally successfully healer a DPS warrior through shadow labs last night and we were 68 and 69 level respectivly.
Ok I'm calling you out on this. No way. The only way this would of happened if you also had with you three well geared level 70's who dished out enough dps so that the dps tank lived longer then the dps paladin mana. With a group of all 70's I had some "O-sh*t" moments when I healed that place. Maybe you had an off healer? Something you didn't mention. Could it be that this was a guild run of exprienced raiders? Because we are talking about you generic pug I believe. A generic pug would be pretty stupid to bring two non-70's to shadow labs, esp if they aren't specced right. Something is missing from your story.
Experience of the dungeon and the game will out-weight gear, but the average pug doesn't have that. I think that is what Ol' tee-bone is gettin at. Shazzam!
I'm also part of the population that has been to MC. I was there once for 4 hours or so, helped kill Lucifron, but we all got stuck on the next boss. I do think that it's pointless to argue about statistics that are no more than wild guesses, however...
As for stress and gaming, I think we all have a point up to which we are willing to deal with it in what is essentially no more than a leisure activity that we all pay to enjoy. I'm not going to get into the pointless and divisive debate of "casual vs. raider," but I don't see anything wrong with trying to find a system that satisfies each end of the spectrum a bit better than the current setup. Far too often debates regarding playstyle devolve into L2P and name-calling. Hey, I just do this to enjoy myself, not to find some sort of personal validation.
As for stress and gaming, I think we all have a point up to which we are willing to deal with it in what is essentially no more than a leisure activity that we all pay to enjoy. I'm not going to get into the pointless and divisive debate of "casual vs. raider," but I don't see anything wrong with trying to find a system that satisfies each end of the spectrum a bit better than the current setup. Far too often debates regarding playstyle devolve into L2P and name-calling. Hey, I just do this to enjoy myself, not to find some sort of personal validation.
# posted by : 27/3/07 19:23
: 27/3/07 19:23
Rosemary: I think it's safe to say there is a significant part of the population that finds validation, and to some degree, self-worth in accomplishing things like end-game boss kills.
# posted by : 27/3/07 19:37
: 27/3/07 19:37
Far too often debates regarding playstyle devolve into L2P and name-calling. Hey, I just do this to enjoy myself, not to find some sort of personal validation.
Just to be clear, I never said this was about 'bad players don't get to raid' and 'l2p' or anything like that...
Also, if you don't play for accomplishment satisfaction, then you also should't mind if certain parts of the game are reseved for those who do, at the outset, and are made available to you over time.
Rosemary: I think it's safe to say there is a significant part of the population that finds validation, and to some degree, self-worth in accomplishing things like end-game boss kills.
My wife and I cheer and high five when a new boss goes down after weeks or wiping and working through strategy withour guild. It is a source of great pride for us, and is akin to a victory in the soft-ball league championships or against the soccer team that always beats you.
Ok I'm calling you out on this. No way. The only way this would of happened if you also had with you three well geared level 70's who dished out enough dps so that the dps tank lived longer then the dps paladin mana. With a group of all 70's I had some "O-sh*t" moments when I healed that place. Maybe you had an off healer? Something you didn't mention. Could it be that this was a guild run of exprienced raiders?
Five members of my guild. No off healer. All alts of raiding players. 68 warrior 41/5/13 (me) tanking, 69 Ret pally in healing gear of green and blue quality, 69 Warlock in sub-par Dungeon 3 and Dungeon 2 equivalants, 70 mage in decent dungeon 3 gear and a 70 Fury warrior dpsing.
? Because we are talking about you generic pug I believe. A generic pug would be pretty stupid to bring two non-70's to shadow labs, esp if they aren't specced right. Something is missing from your story.
If you recall, the original topic of this thread before we inadvertantly derailed it by drilling down into the ezmode dungeon option, was that off-specs should be possible, so that a group of 5 friends with off-specs could accomplish dungeon 3 instances successfully by which I countered saying, umm ya they can, we did it last night. And we were underleveled and undergeared to boot.
Just to be clear, I never said this was about 'bad players don't get to raid' and 'l2p' or anything like that...
Also, if you don't play for accomplishment satisfaction, then you also should't mind if certain parts of the game are reseved for those who do, at the outset, and are made available to you over time.
Rosemary: I think it's safe to say there is a significant part of the population that finds validation, and to some degree, self-worth in accomplishing things like end-game boss kills.
My wife and I cheer and high five when a new boss goes down after weeks or wiping and working through strategy withour guild. It is a source of great pride for us, and is akin to a victory in the soft-ball league championships or against the soccer team that always beats you.
Ok I'm calling you out on this. No way. The only way this would of happened if you also had with you three well geared level 70's who dished out enough dps so that the dps tank lived longer then the dps paladin mana. With a group of all 70's I had some "O-sh*t" moments when I healed that place. Maybe you had an off healer? Something you didn't mention. Could it be that this was a guild run of exprienced raiders?
Five members of my guild. No off healer. All alts of raiding players. 68 warrior 41/5/13 (me) tanking, 69 Ret pally in healing gear of green and blue quality, 69 Warlock in sub-par Dungeon 3 and Dungeon 2 equivalants, 70 mage in decent dungeon 3 gear and a 70 Fury warrior dpsing.
? Because we are talking about you generic pug I believe. A generic pug would be pretty stupid to bring two non-70's to shadow labs, esp if they aren't specced right. Something is missing from your story.
If you recall, the original topic of this thread before we inadvertantly derailed it by drilling down into the ezmode dungeon option, was that off-specs should be possible, so that a group of 5 friends with off-specs could accomplish dungeon 3 instances successfully by which I countered saying, umm ya they can, we did it last night. And we were underleveled and undergeared to boot.
OK Cyndre, but when personal validation is expressed in this way:
That people lack patience and dedication to accomplish those goals is their own issue to resolve.
seems to be pretty judgmental, as if it's a character flaw not to enjoy something in the same way. Granted, it's not L2P verbatim, but...
I'm as happy as anyone when I'm part of a good dungeon group that defeats a challenging boss/encounter. That's one of the reasons I play too, and sure, it provides some sort of validation. But if you want to use that as a way to suggest that you are of superior moral character, then, well, I just don't find that a productive or attractive approach.
Because I believe people who want to be the best, experience the best should have to work for what they want. Turning top tier content into a tourist attraction is invalidating the accomplishment for those who do invest whats nessesary to get there.
I don't follow. How exactly does this invalidate playing it on a harder level? Besides the only real way one player can tell another player has been through a particular encounter, without talking to him/her about it, is if that player is wearing a gear drop from it. It's essentially a private experience in that way.
Think of it this way: is being able to walk or play ball on the infield in Yankee Stadium as part of a tour or fantasy league ever going to be seen as equivalent to playing there as a major league baseball player?
That people lack patience and dedication to accomplish those goals is their own issue to resolve.
seems to be pretty judgmental, as if it's a character flaw not to enjoy something in the same way. Granted, it's not L2P verbatim, but...
I'm as happy as anyone when I'm part of a good dungeon group that defeats a challenging boss/encounter. That's one of the reasons I play too, and sure, it provides some sort of validation. But if you want to use that as a way to suggest that you are of superior moral character, then, well, I just don't find that a productive or attractive approach.
Because I believe people who want to be the best, experience the best should have to work for what they want. Turning top tier content into a tourist attraction is invalidating the accomplishment for those who do invest whats nessesary to get there.
I don't follow. How exactly does this invalidate playing it on a harder level? Besides the only real way one player can tell another player has been through a particular encounter, without talking to him/her about it, is if that player is wearing a gear drop from it. It's essentially a private experience in that way.
Think of it this way: is being able to walk or play ball on the infield in Yankee Stadium as part of a tour or fantasy league ever going to be seen as equivalent to playing there as a major league baseball player?
# posted by : 27/3/07 20:22
: 27/3/07 20:22
OK Cyndre, but when personal validation is expressed in this way:
That people lack patience and dedication to accomplish those goals is their own issue to resolve.
seems to be pretty judgmental, as if it's a character flaw not to enjoy something in the same way. Granted, it's not L2P verbatim, but...
Ok, point taken. That was a bit harsh and wasn't meant as a moral judgement.
My comment was more in context of Tobold implying that because content wasn't available to him at the same pace as others, it was time to move on. the exact comment: "If there was an easy mode for raids, so casual guilds could go raiding, I'd still be playing WoW next month, and not switching to LotRO."
My point is the same though I regret how it appeared out of context... Blizzard has always and will alreasy progressivly tune their raid encounters in stages. So today guild A can struggle hard and beat it but guilds b-z have really no shot based on their time, dedication, skill or whatever factors... After guild A has it on farm, Bliz tunes it a bit and now guild A is wiping on Zone 2 and B-D are struggling but beating Zone 1. F-Z still have no shot. Six months down the line, guild A doesn't even go to Zone 1, B-H have it on farm and I-Z are wiping but working through it.
Its the raid food chain and it does require patience and commitment to stick to it until your guild gets in down. Its not 'bad players' that don't choose to do that, but it is a choice. You can wait for the ezmode... it will come eventually. Meantime, I find it hard to believe that there is nothing else to do to prepare and find enjoyment while you catch up to content.
That people lack patience and dedication to accomplish those goals is their own issue to resolve.
seems to be pretty judgmental, as if it's a character flaw not to enjoy something in the same way. Granted, it's not L2P verbatim, but...
Ok, point taken. That was a bit harsh and wasn't meant as a moral judgement.
My comment was more in context of Tobold implying that because content wasn't available to him at the same pace as others, it was time to move on. the exact comment: "If there was an easy mode for raids, so casual guilds could go raiding, I'd still be playing WoW next month, and not switching to LotRO."
My point is the same though I regret how it appeared out of context... Blizzard has always and will alreasy progressivly tune their raid encounters in stages. So today guild A can struggle hard and beat it but guilds b-z have really no shot based on their time, dedication, skill or whatever factors... After guild A has it on farm, Bliz tunes it a bit and now guild A is wiping on Zone 2 and B-D are struggling but beating Zone 1. F-Z still have no shot. Six months down the line, guild A doesn't even go to Zone 1, B-H have it on farm and I-Z are wiping but working through it.
Its the raid food chain and it does require patience and commitment to stick to it until your guild gets in down. Its not 'bad players' that don't choose to do that, but it is a choice. You can wait for the ezmode... it will come eventually. Meantime, I find it hard to believe that there is nothing else to do to prepare and find enjoyment while you catch up to content.
OK, Tobold, I couldn't resist a comment either...
Let's face it; 8 million players aren't all going to all be good at the game.
There are a huge number of factors; play ability, class, spec and gear are only four.
Yet fail at any one, and you may fail on a heroic level 70 dungeon.
Well, your pool of 8 million players has slimmed considerably when you throw in the additional parameters of "heroic" and "level 70".
Add to that a split by server, then faction, some people are questing or in PvP or farming mats or playing an alt or tied to guild obligations, and then who's actually logged on, and you may be down to very few options.
If your group fails, then do we conclude that the content is too hard?
No.
This isn't Mario Bros., or even NWN -- you have many, many options.
Personally you may choose to re-spec, or to make better gear choices, or upgrade gear. Maybe you've been playing that alt too much and lost your edge with this class.
You can get better organized and pull together a better mix of characters for your next run.
Maybe you'll consider jumping to another guild; perhaps even another server.
Perhaps research on Thottbot or a similar site is in order.
It could even be that you just need a break...
My point is that much of the fun and sense of accomplishment in the game is about overcoming challenges.
Without challenges, you may as well run Scholo again with your group of 70's...
Let's face it; 8 million players aren't all going to all be good at the game.
There are a huge number of factors; play ability, class, spec and gear are only four.
Yet fail at any one, and you may fail on a heroic level 70 dungeon.
Well, your pool of 8 million players has slimmed considerably when you throw in the additional parameters of "heroic" and "level 70".
Add to that a split by server, then faction, some people are questing or in PvP or farming mats or playing an alt or tied to guild obligations, and then who's actually logged on, and you may be down to very few options.
If your group fails, then do we conclude that the content is too hard?
No.
This isn't Mario Bros., or even NWN -- you have many, many options.
Personally you may choose to re-spec, or to make better gear choices, or upgrade gear. Maybe you've been playing that alt too much and lost your edge with this class.
You can get better organized and pull together a better mix of characters for your next run.
Maybe you'll consider jumping to another guild; perhaps even another server.
Perhaps research on Thottbot or a similar site is in order.
It could even be that you just need a break...
My point is that much of the fun and sense of accomplishment in the game is about overcoming challenges.
Without challenges, you may as well run Scholo again with your group of 70's...
Very interesting discussions. I feel obligated to jump on in here just because I finally opened my big mouth yesterday taking Tobold's bait post. :P
@Cyndre
I honestly believe that all of your judgement on this is going to be biased to a degree: you have in-game experience with your guild of raiders. That experience is going to provide a skewed perspective and play-style, you have to admit that. I personally believe you can't even adequately judge a common PuG any longer, because the second you join any group, that group just gained an experienced raider. You may not be geared on your alt, but you still possess knowledge that many casual players may not... I know that I also fall into this category because I've gotten experience that tells me "Oh - whirlwind/hellfire/etc. I should move out of that effect." Many casual players aren't privy to this knowledge the way we are from raiding.
You're perspective is also going to be skewed a bit due to your particular server. All servers don't have the same progression - with over 8 million players, your opinions will be shaped by your particular experience, but I don't think you can realistically expect the same from everyone else. I played on a server that had many attempts at Onyxia that were organized by experienced raiders...they just filled in the blanks and ran. I wouldn't consider this in the same vein as an average PuG group trying to run Arcatraz or Shattered Halls with the group matrix that Tobold was describing. They just aren't the same beasts.
I'd be curious to know if you'd feel the same way you do now, however, if all of the instances started out in an easy mode, perhaps starting at level 56 versus the current level 58, and dropped a smattering of blue, uncut gems or something similar from bosses. Perhaps you couldn't complete quests in easy mode, but got the experience of where trash was located and what abilities bosses had. Then they had to be completed again on a normal mode, and finally heroic. You're not taking some kind of personal affront by other players running through Shattered Halls now, even though you might be running them on Heroic. It's just considered some kind of "natural progression in the game." If this type of easy mode were the default type of gameplay Blizzard had launched at TBC release, I doubt that we'd be having this conversation.
I should have also prefaced this by saying I don't think this option would be bad at all. I play with friends who all have very young kids and we all agree that those children are going to take priority over any video game or hobby. With that said, we have a host of characters on a pvp-realm with absolutely no resemblance of a proper group matrix, therefore, we don't get to run instances - even if time would permit. Right now, there is a lot of content that we're not able to experience due to normal instances not bending and allowing for sub-optimal group makeup. We've basically just written off those portions of the game.
Just my .02 copper. ;)
@Cyndre
I honestly believe that all of your judgement on this is going to be biased to a degree: you have in-game experience with your guild of raiders. That experience is going to provide a skewed perspective and play-style, you have to admit that. I personally believe you can't even adequately judge a common PuG any longer, because the second you join any group, that group just gained an experienced raider. You may not be geared on your alt, but you still possess knowledge that many casual players may not... I know that I also fall into this category because I've gotten experience that tells me "Oh - whirlwind/hellfire/etc. I should move out of that effect." Many casual players aren't privy to this knowledge the way we are from raiding.
You're perspective is also going to be skewed a bit due to your particular server. All servers don't have the same progression - with over 8 million players, your opinions will be shaped by your particular experience, but I don't think you can realistically expect the same from everyone else. I played on a server that had many attempts at Onyxia that were organized by experienced raiders...they just filled in the blanks and ran. I wouldn't consider this in the same vein as an average PuG group trying to run Arcatraz or Shattered Halls with the group matrix that Tobold was describing. They just aren't the same beasts.
I'd be curious to know if you'd feel the same way you do now, however, if all of the instances started out in an easy mode, perhaps starting at level 56 versus the current level 58, and dropped a smattering of blue, uncut gems or something similar from bosses. Perhaps you couldn't complete quests in easy mode, but got the experience of where trash was located and what abilities bosses had. Then they had to be completed again on a normal mode, and finally heroic. You're not taking some kind of personal affront by other players running through Shattered Halls now, even though you might be running them on Heroic. It's just considered some kind of "natural progression in the game." If this type of easy mode were the default type of gameplay Blizzard had launched at TBC release, I doubt that we'd be having this conversation.
I should have also prefaced this by saying I don't think this option would be bad at all. I play with friends who all have very young kids and we all agree that those children are going to take priority over any video game or hobby. With that said, we have a host of characters on a pvp-realm with absolutely no resemblance of a proper group matrix, therefore, we don't get to run instances - even if time would permit. Right now, there is a lot of content that we're not able to experience due to normal instances not bending and allowing for sub-optimal group makeup. We've basically just written off those portions of the game.
Just my .02 copper. ;)
# posted by : 28/3/07 00:03
: 28/3/07 00:03
Lastly, allowing people to ezmode quests is just wrong.
However, changing actual content to accomidate people who just want to screw around and be successful in current end tier instances is not a good design choice.
Agreed. I would suggest not making it possible to complete the quests in easy mode dungeons. The point there is "just for fun" relaxing playing. I don't think anyone is actually suggesting making end-game, high difficulty content easier. It's a matter of "creating" content that isn't end-game, for people that may be there more for the scenery than anything else, or for a break from world play.
The biggest objection I can imagine would come from all the world pvpers who would have fewer people around to gank because they'd be running more fun instances.
What Tobold is proposing is just make the game have an easy setting so everyone can go hit up Mt. Hyjal right away. That is a terrible design choice as it takes any accomplishment laddering out the MMO endgame which is what motivates the vast majority of players to continue playing.
I would disagree. What I see motivate the hardcore players more often is the loot. And being able to beat the absolutely hardest challenges possible. As long as the easymode dungeons have lower quality loot, I'm pretty sure they won't complain very much.
And as a player who considers himself a member of that grey area between casual and hardcore, I would do a little of both, depending on the situation and how I'm feeling at the time. And to support Tobold a little, I've been to MC twice, but BWL only once, and only saw a single boss there. The raids my guild only managed to do regularly were ZG and AQ20. I really wish we'd have been able to do the other raids, and ultimately that inability (due to size in the case of MC, but gear in AQ20) led to the guild breaking up. Some of our members stopped playing. That seems to be some evidence of bad business for Blizzard.
Because I believe people who want to be the best, experience the best should have to work for what they want. Turning top tier content into a tourist attraction is invalidating the accomplishment for those who do invest whats nessesary to get there.
True, but it's probably better business for Blizzard. And there are two schools of thought on whether it will really affect hardcore morale. Sure, having casuals going to Karazhan and Mt Hyjal at the same time may make some feel like their accomplishments are marginalized, but at the same time, the raiders know that they're still beating it on non-easymode, and have gear to prove it.
Sure, eventually a large number of people will probably get through Karazhan. Who knows, perhaps even a majority of the playerbase. Once enough gear goes around it'll be happening more, so perhaps it would be more important to look at the really high lvl dungeons. If a large number of people got to MC, not as many go to BWL, and I wouldn't be surprised if that 3% in Naxx is actually smaller, let alone the number who actually got very far in there. Now think back to the couple months before TBC came out, and how few guilds were actually interested in Naxx, because of the difficulty compared to the fact that all the gear from it was going to be marginalized in a few months. A number of guilds were probably only interested in checking it out just for sight-seeing. Now if Blizzard had made an easymode version of it, a bunch of guilds probably would have checked it out rather than having a bunch of people freeze their accounts for the few months leading up to TBC. Instead, all that cool Naxxramas content was wasted on more than 95% of the WoW population. Where's the business, or even FUN in that?
However, changing actual content to accomidate people who just want to screw around and be successful in current end tier instances is not a good design choice.
Agreed. I would suggest not making it possible to complete the quests in easy mode dungeons. The point there is "just for fun" relaxing playing. I don't think anyone is actually suggesting making end-game, high difficulty content easier. It's a matter of "creating" content that isn't end-game, for people that may be there more for the scenery than anything else, or for a break from world play.
The biggest objection I can imagine would come from all the world pvpers who would have fewer people around to gank because they'd be running more fun instances.
What Tobold is proposing is just make the game have an easy setting so everyone can go hit up Mt. Hyjal right away. That is a terrible design choice as it takes any accomplishment laddering out the MMO endgame which is what motivates the vast majority of players to continue playing.
I would disagree. What I see motivate the hardcore players more often is the loot. And being able to beat the absolutely hardest challenges possible. As long as the easymode dungeons have lower quality loot, I'm pretty sure they won't complain very much.
And as a player who considers himself a member of that grey area between casual and hardcore, I would do a little of both, depending on the situation and how I'm feeling at the time. And to support Tobold a little, I've been to MC twice, but BWL only once, and only saw a single boss there. The raids my guild only managed to do regularly were ZG and AQ20. I really wish we'd have been able to do the other raids, and ultimately that inability (due to size in the case of MC, but gear in AQ20) led to the guild breaking up. Some of our members stopped playing. That seems to be some evidence of bad business for Blizzard.
Because I believe people who want to be the best, experience the best should have to work for what they want. Turning top tier content into a tourist attraction is invalidating the accomplishment for those who do invest whats nessesary to get there.
True, but it's probably better business for Blizzard. And there are two schools of thought on whether it will really affect hardcore morale. Sure, having casuals going to Karazhan and Mt Hyjal at the same time may make some feel like their accomplishments are marginalized, but at the same time, the raiders know that they're still beating it on non-easymode, and have gear to prove it.
Sure, eventually a large number of people will probably get through Karazhan. Who knows, perhaps even a majority of the playerbase. Once enough gear goes around it'll be happening more, so perhaps it would be more important to look at the really high lvl dungeons. If a large number of people got to MC, not as many go to BWL, and I wouldn't be surprised if that 3% in Naxx is actually smaller, let alone the number who actually got very far in there. Now think back to the couple months before TBC came out, and how few guilds were actually interested in Naxx, because of the difficulty compared to the fact that all the gear from it was going to be marginalized in a few months. A number of guilds were probably only interested in checking it out just for sight-seeing. Now if Blizzard had made an easymode version of it, a bunch of guilds probably would have checked it out rather than having a bunch of people freeze their accounts for the few months leading up to TBC. Instead, all that cool Naxxramas content was wasted on more than 95% of the WoW population. Where's the business, or even FUN in that?
# posted by : 28/3/07 02:18
: 28/3/07 02:18
It is a waste of development resources to include ingame content that even *makes up figure* less than even 25% of the playerbase will ever see.
Considering 8 million people play, I highly doubt more than 2 million of them have done the lategame contect simply because the mechanics of raiding are soo impossible (time constraints, effort involved, drama, etc).
What really twists the knot is that people who do reach the endgame content usually feel exclusive enough to do what they can to promote blizzard accomidating to the measely 25% of the playerbase with those raids.
Everyone pays the same monthly subscription cost, development spent for anything other than *ALL* the players is detrimental to their long term success and if you have ever heard reasons people quit WoW... its not too hard to see the link betweeen them quitting and stuff Blizz does wrong, as far as game content/mechanics are involved.
The elitist attitude plagues alot of games besides WoW. Name calling is too easy, and the forum flaming/whining at best is done in vain. Bliz gets their paycheck, the new players get locked out of many parts of the game and since the game content eventually shifts to easy-mode, everyone wins... eventualy.
Considering 8 million people play, I highly doubt more than 2 million of them have done the lategame contect simply because the mechanics of raiding are soo impossible (time constraints, effort involved, drama, etc).
What really twists the knot is that people who do reach the endgame content usually feel exclusive enough to do what they can to promote blizzard accomidating to the measely 25% of the playerbase with those raids.
Everyone pays the same monthly subscription cost, development spent for anything other than *ALL* the players is detrimental to their long term success and if you have ever heard reasons people quit WoW... its not too hard to see the link betweeen them quitting and stuff Blizz does wrong, as far as game content/mechanics are involved.
The elitist attitude plagues alot of games besides WoW. Name calling is too easy, and the forum flaming/whining at best is done in vain. Bliz gets their paycheck, the new players get locked out of many parts of the game and since the game content eventually shifts to easy-mode, everyone wins... eventualy.
@ten mohican
Why are you so concerned about why people quit WoW? If you're not having fun, then YOU should quit WoW. Tobold has said he will do the same when it's not fun anymore.
Sure Blizz can do some things better, and they screw a lot up. But the numbers speak for themselves...they have a phenomenon on their hands, and it's not from being unable to keep casual players happy.
If you are unhappy that raiding is too difficult then don't do it. And if what's left isn't enjoyable, then there are many top quality games, MMO's or otherwise that you can enjoy and see all of the content.
Why are you so concerned about why people quit WoW? If you're not having fun, then YOU should quit WoW. Tobold has said he will do the same when it's not fun anymore.
Sure Blizz can do some things better, and they screw a lot up. But the numbers speak for themselves...they have a phenomenon on their hands, and it's not from being unable to keep casual players happy.
If you are unhappy that raiding is too difficult then don't do it. And if what's left isn't enjoyable, then there are many top quality games, MMO's or otherwise that you can enjoy and see all of the content.
# posted by : 28/3/07 04:33
: 28/3/07 04:33
No. No. And no. Because you bought this game and because you pay each month does not entitle you to see all the game's content. If you bought Ninja Gaiden for XBox, arguably one of the toughest games out there, that does not entitle you to see all of its content. You have to master its specific challenges.
Not necessarily entitlement. It'd simply be more fun. And fun is at the root of Blizzard's business model. They didn't go the way of EQ2 for a reason. This is simply an easy way to make more content available for more casual and different forms of play/players without actually having to create new dungeons.
Also, I would disagree on your bringing up Ninja Gaiden as a good example, since more advancement in an MMO is rooted in time spent than in other games. In Ninja Gaiden it's quite possible for some people to be simply unable to beat it, and that's ok, because they bought it for a specific challenge. Though at the same time, I'd point out another game, as an example of how WoW could be like with different dungeon difficulties: Halo and Halo 2. Playing Halo on easy difficulty is ridiculously easy, and doesn't give that much of a sense of accomplishment, but you do get to have fun playing any level in it, as oppposed to getting stuck at the same level forever, getting bored, and dropping the game. Whereas normal gives a decent difficulty and the Legendary gives an insanely tough challenge for those looking for one. It's rooted in one of the reasons people use cheat codes in single player games sometimes. To extend the value gained from their purchase by getting to see the rest of the content. Obviously, in an MMO, making it so everyone can get everything kinda makes it boring, since there's no sense of accomplishment, but the main idea I believe Tobold is putting forward is that it's possible to still reward people for more time spent by rewarding them with what they really want - gear - while still giving more casual players more of what they want - content.
Not necessarily entitlement. It'd simply be more fun. And fun is at the root of Blizzard's business model. They didn't go the way of EQ2 for a reason. This is simply an easy way to make more content available for more casual and different forms of play/players without actually having to create new dungeons.
Also, I would disagree on your bringing up Ninja Gaiden as a good example, since more advancement in an MMO is rooted in time spent than in other games. In Ninja Gaiden it's quite possible for some people to be simply unable to beat it, and that's ok, because they bought it for a specific challenge. Though at the same time, I'd point out another game, as an example of how WoW could be like with different dungeon difficulties: Halo and Halo 2. Playing Halo on easy difficulty is ridiculously easy, and doesn't give that much of a sense of accomplishment, but you do get to have fun playing any level in it, as oppposed to getting stuck at the same level forever, getting bored, and dropping the game. Whereas normal gives a decent difficulty and the Legendary gives an insanely tough challenge for those looking for one. It's rooted in one of the reasons people use cheat codes in single player games sometimes. To extend the value gained from their purchase by getting to see the rest of the content. Obviously, in an MMO, making it so everyone can get everything kinda makes it boring, since there's no sense of accomplishment, but the main idea I believe Tobold is putting forward is that it's possible to still reward people for more time spent by rewarding them with what they really want - gear - while still giving more casual players more of what they want - content.
# posted by : 28/3/07 06:26
: 28/3/07 06:26
I believe that entitlement to content stems from monthly fees, and not from "mastering challenges". If WoW changed to a pay-per-hour business model (like they have in China), I would agree with you. But right now the hardcore players are Blizzard's worst customers. They pay the same as everyone else, they insist on content exclusive for them, and they use the most resources in terms of bandwith and customer support.
For Blizzard the goal is simply to make the maximum number of players keep paying their monthly subscriptions for the longest period possible. Cyndre's claim that everybody arrives in the raid dungeons sooner or later, that it is just a question of time, is simply false. If you are below a certain level of casual, you never get to experience above a certain level of content. You simply get stuck in the game and can't progress any more, because you don't have the consecutive hours of time, and the guild organization behind you to make the next step possible. Nobody ever PuG'd Naxxramas. Having that sort of people quit is bad for Blizzard's business.
Austerius brings up the comparison with single-player games. So why do so many single-player games have variable difficulty levels? Why are there so many thousands of websites and magazines and books dedicated to cheat codes that enable people to get past the hard stuff? I really liked GTA Vice City, but I sure would never have finished it without cheat codes. The cheat codes are put into these games deliberately, just like other games have the option to set difficulty level, so everybody who pays the same amount of money for the game gets to see the same content.
For Blizzard the goal is simply to make the maximum number of players keep paying their monthly subscriptions for the longest period possible. Cyndre's claim that everybody arrives in the raid dungeons sooner or later, that it is just a question of time, is simply false. If you are below a certain level of casual, you never get to experience above a certain level of content. You simply get stuck in the game and can't progress any more, because you don't have the consecutive hours of time, and the guild organization behind you to make the next step possible. Nobody ever PuG'd Naxxramas. Having that sort of people quit is bad for Blizzard's business.
Austerius brings up the comparison with single-player games. So why do so many single-player games have variable difficulty levels? Why are there so many thousands of websites and magazines and books dedicated to cheat codes that enable people to get past the hard stuff? I really liked GTA Vice City, but I sure would never have finished it without cheat codes. The cheat codes are put into these games deliberately, just like other games have the option to set difficulty level, so everybody who pays the same amount of money for the game gets to see the same content.
@Austerius
"So we don't need *easy* mode, and we also don't need to tell people how to spec. I reject both arguments and believe they both work from the assumption that you are entitled to experience all of the game's content."
I actually never implied that either myself, my wife, or our friends were entitled to anything in the game. You've just read that too many times on forums or blog posts or wherever and assume that is my position as well. That "I pay XXX dollars per month so I should get to see everything in the game." is a view that I neither hold nor agree with. As such, I've ruled out large portions of the game to a level that I can realistically expect to accomplish.
Perhaps you shouldn't speak for me?
I merely think that Tobold's idea wouldn't be a bad addition to the game and if Blizzard had released this feature as the default way instances scaled when TBC was first released we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. I don't think it's a bad idea and I certainly don't understand why anyone currently playing would feel threatened by it if the loot tables and/or quests were tuned along with the difficulty rating. They're already tuned higher for heroics.
I still contend that everyone's position is skewed to a degree by their experience in the game. A raider's perspective on what is reasonable for a "casual" player to accomplish isn't always the best thing for enjoyable game design. If it were, odds are good that Scholomance, Stratholme, et al, wouldn't have been re-tuned to be more PuG-friendly.
With an "Easy mode" setting, such retuning might not ever be necessary.
"So we don't need *easy* mode, and we also don't need to tell people how to spec. I reject both arguments and believe they both work from the assumption that you are entitled to experience all of the game's content."
I actually never implied that either myself, my wife, or our friends were entitled to anything in the game. You've just read that too many times on forums or blog posts or wherever and assume that is my position as well. That "I pay XXX dollars per month so I should get to see everything in the game." is a view that I neither hold nor agree with. As such, I've ruled out large portions of the game to a level that I can realistically expect to accomplish.
Perhaps you shouldn't speak for me?
I merely think that Tobold's idea wouldn't be a bad addition to the game and if Blizzard had released this feature as the default way instances scaled when TBC was first released we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. I don't think it's a bad idea and I certainly don't understand why anyone currently playing would feel threatened by it if the loot tables and/or quests were tuned along with the difficulty rating. They're already tuned higher for heroics.
I still contend that everyone's position is skewed to a degree by their experience in the game. A raider's perspective on what is reasonable for a "casual" player to accomplish isn't always the best thing for enjoyable game design. If it were, odds are good that Scholomance, Stratholme, et al, wouldn't have been re-tuned to be more PuG-friendly.
With an "Easy mode" setting, such retuning might not ever be necessary.
# posted by : 28/3/07 15:36
: 28/3/07 15:36
For Blizzard the goal is simply to make the maximum number of players keep paying their monthly subscriptions for the longest period possible. Cyndre's claim that everybody arrives in the raid dungeons sooner or later, that it is just a question of time, is simply false. If you are below a certain level of casual, you never get to experience above a certain level of content. You simply get stuck in the game and can't progress any more, because you don't have the consecutive hours of time, and the guild organization behind you to make the next step possible. Nobody ever PuG'd Naxxramas. Having that sort of people quit is bad for Blizzard's business.
Tobold, you are pulling my comments out of context and then selectivly countering them...
I clearly stated Naxx was the exception due to the timing of the expansion release. On my server, everything up to AQ40 was being PUGd when tBC hit, so I call bullshit on your statement.
ALSO, you and 39 PUGs COULD go do Naxx now and see the content on your ezmode. YOU CHOOSE NOT TO.
I believe that entitlement to content stems from monthly fees, and not from "mastering challenges". If WoW changed to a pay-per-hour business model (like they have in China), I would agree with you. But right now the hardcore players are Blizzard's worst customers. They pay the same as everyone else, they insist on content exclusive for them, and they use the most resources in terms of bandwith and customer support.
If these casual players who can't play enough to ever get to raiding status, then they can't possibly have enough time to finish lower tier content, so Blizzard doesn't need to make them any new content, because they still have tons left to experience. If the finsihed the lower content completely, they would be ready and able to go raid, so its a Catch 22 in your logic.
Point is this... If its not about the loot, but rather the fun experience, 20 friends and PUGs can go see all the old content. They should have months of ezmode sightseeing ahead of them in the content they missed. By the time they clear all the old content on ezmode (level 70) then the current content will be ezmode as well.
Tuesday Blizzard hotfixed a few Karazhan fights and now most are so braindead easy that half our raid could afk and we would still get through it. And let me assure you they will keep doing it until its nerfed so far into the ground, it makes 10-man UBRS seem like Kel'Thezad.
They players who say they dont have time for the attunements and getting gear to raid and thus raiding is out of reach for them, but feel slighted because content is closed, are entitlement bitching. Blizzard programed a whole mess of content for this playerbase to work on, and when they are done with it the next batch will be there waiting in its nerfed-to-hell state.
The basic premises for this debate is "But I should be able to go now, even though I don't have the time to go."
Give me a break.
Tobold, you are pulling my comments out of context and then selectivly countering them...
I clearly stated Naxx was the exception due to the timing of the expansion release. On my server, everything up to AQ40 was being PUGd when tBC hit, so I call bullshit on your statement.
ALSO, you and 39 PUGs COULD go do Naxx now and see the content on your ezmode. YOU CHOOSE NOT TO.
I believe that entitlement to content stems from monthly fees, and not from "mastering challenges". If WoW changed to a pay-per-hour business model (like they have in China), I would agree with you. But right now the hardcore players are Blizzard's worst customers. They pay the same as everyone else, they insist on content exclusive for them, and they use the most resources in terms of bandwith and customer support.
If these casual players who can't play enough to ever get to raiding status, then they can't possibly have enough time to finish lower tier content, so Blizzard doesn't need to make them any new content, because they still have tons left to experience. If the finsihed the lower content completely, they would be ready and able to go raid, so its a Catch 22 in your logic.
Point is this... If its not about the loot, but rather the fun experience, 20 friends and PUGs can go see all the old content. They should have months of ezmode sightseeing ahead of them in the content they missed. By the time they clear all the old content on ezmode (level 70) then the current content will be ezmode as well.
Tuesday Blizzard hotfixed a few Karazhan fights and now most are so braindead easy that half our raid could afk and we would still get through it. And let me assure you they will keep doing it until its nerfed so far into the ground, it makes 10-man UBRS seem like Kel'Thezad.
They players who say they dont have time for the attunements and getting gear to raid and thus raiding is out of reach for them, but feel slighted because content is closed, are entitlement bitching. Blizzard programed a whole mess of content for this playerbase to work on, and when they are done with it the next batch will be there waiting in its nerfed-to-hell state.
The basic premises for this debate is "But I should be able to go now, even though I don't have the time to go."
Give me a break.
Here is the break I can give you, agreeing with what you wrote:
Cyndre wrote on his blog: "Top tier dungeons, heroics and the raid zones have such specific demands for crowd control, tanking and healing, that it has become necessary to pick and choose the class balance and more and more, guilds and groups are opting for DPS classes that can play multiple roles and still turn on the heat when the need arises."
My basic premise is that you are right, and that the "necessity to pick and choose the class balance" is a bad thing. You can't play with whoever you want, but need to select your "friends" according to their class, talent build, gear, and skill.
What you propose is to fiddle with the class details to make all classes and specs equally wanted and useful in "Top tier dungeons, heroics and the raid zones". I say that this is impossible, there will always be some class or build considered to be inferior and unable to get invited.
So instead of forcing everyone to conform to whatever is the current template for the ideal group, I'd like Blizzard to offer them an alternative. Instead of having a choice between conforming to the template and going to these places, or not conforming and not going at all, I want the non-conformists to be able to visit places in easy-mode, without receiving the phat loot.
And you can't PuG Naxxramas, because you'll never find 39 people willing to pay 300 gold for the attunement, or grinding AD rep to make it cheaper.
Cyndre wrote on his blog: "Top tier dungeons, heroics and the raid zones have such specific demands for crowd control, tanking and healing, that it has become necessary to pick and choose the class balance and more and more, guilds and groups are opting for DPS classes that can play multiple roles and still turn on the heat when the need arises."
My basic premise is that you are right, and that the "necessity to pick and choose the class balance" is a bad thing. You can't play with whoever you want, but need to select your "friends" according to their class, talent build, gear, and skill.
What you propose is to fiddle with the class details to make all classes and specs equally wanted and useful in "Top tier dungeons, heroics and the raid zones". I say that this is impossible, there will always be some class or build considered to be inferior and unable to get invited.
So instead of forcing everyone to conform to whatever is the current template for the ideal group, I'd like Blizzard to offer them an alternative. Instead of having a choice between conforming to the template and going to these places, or not conforming and not going at all, I want the non-conformists to be able to visit places in easy-mode, without receiving the phat loot.
And you can't PuG Naxxramas, because you'll never find 39 people willing to pay 300 gold for the attunement, or grinding AD rep to make it cheaper.
Well agree to disagree. Great debate over the past few days, but we've reached a point where you'll point to something i've said in the past disregarding context and other statements that quantify it, and I'll be doing the same to you. Thank for sparking lively debate to fill the day!
And you can't PuG Naxxramas, because you'll never find 39 people willing to pay 300 gold for the attunement, or grinding AD rep to make it cheaper.
That's like saying you can't pug Molten Core because you'll never find 39 people willing to run BRD for their attunement.
That's like saying you can't pug Molten Core because you'll never find 39 people willing to run BRD for their attunement.
# posted by : 28/3/07 18:05
: 28/3/07 18:05
...today I'm going to argue the complete opposite view: Everybody should be free to spec as he want, and the game should accommodate that.
The people making the case for easy mode dungeons seem to be ignoring all of the people who have shared their experiences of successfully PUGing with off-spec classes.
So as for: Everybody should be free to spec as he wants - they can.
And for: and the game should accommodate that - it does.
Case closed.
The people making the case for easy mode dungeons seem to be ignoring all of the people who have shared their experiences of successfully PUGing with off-spec classes.
So as for: Everybody should be free to spec as he wants - they can.
And for: and the game should accommodate that - it does.
Case closed.
# posted by : 29/3/07 01:06
: 29/3/07 01:06
I just read this whole debate. Two diametrically opposing viewpoint championed by cyndre and tobold here.
However it is very clear to me that cyndre's arguments, however forcefully put, are extremely flawed.
In short cyndre's argument against easymode dungeons are:
1) They are already easy, and cyndre has proof since he and 4 friends have done high end dungeons underlevelled and off-spec.
2) The dungeons will get easier over time and eventually accessible to everyone. In the meantime, since casual players consume content slower anyways, they should occupy themselves with lower level content.
3) Easymode will invalidate the achievement and effort of skilled players like cyndre.
Addressing the above point by point:
1) It is quite clear from other posters and tobold that a lot of people do not consider dungeons easy. Add my fiancee to that camp. The fact that cyndre find the present content easy enough is no indication of its difficulty for other people. The informal poll that this discussion serves as is a far better indication.
2) Cyndre says - If these casual players who can't play enough to ever get to raiding status, then they can't possibly have enough time to finish lower tier content, so Blizzard doesn't need to make them any new content, because they still have tons left to experience. If the finsihed the lower content completely, they would be ready and able to go raid, so its a Catch 22 in your logic.
Completely off the mark. To finish non-dungeon content is very easy simply because (i) there are by and large no grouping requirement, and (ii) there are no "consecutive hours available" requirement, and (iii) it does not take X wipes before an encounter is mastered, and (iv) it does not take Y hours per week to farm for consumables/gear/attunements etc. In fact I think most casual players will able to finish non-dungeon content much faster than blizz can produce them. And finishing those definitely does not mean they are "ready and able" to raid the harder content. There is simply not enough casual content in the original WoW to last that 2 years until TBC comes out and sufficiently nerf the endgame dungeons to casualness.
(3) I fail to see how the having easymode invalidates the achievements of people who can do the normal/heroic mode. We still have the gear and bragging rights, so what is the issue? The impression that I unfortunately got from cyndre is that his position stems from a sort of twisted selfishness. It takes a certain amount of skill and effort to experience some of the best handcrafted content by blizz currently, and it would seem cyndre wants this withheld from people not meeting the requirement until he himself has experienced it on normal/heroic mode. Furthermore, even if does takes away the achievement (I still don't see how) it would make more sense for blizz to cater to the majority.
To me cyndre's position is indefensible, and it troubles me that tobold is accused (without justification) for quoting out of context et cetera, when it is patently clear that it is cyndre who is not able to come out with a cogent argument for his views.
However it is very clear to me that cyndre's arguments, however forcefully put, are extremely flawed.
In short cyndre's argument against easymode dungeons are:
1) They are already easy, and cyndre has proof since he and 4 friends have done high end dungeons underlevelled and off-spec.
2) The dungeons will get easier over time and eventually accessible to everyone. In the meantime, since casual players consume content slower anyways, they should occupy themselves with lower level content.
3) Easymode will invalidate the achievement and effort of skilled players like cyndre.
Addressing the above point by point:
1) It is quite clear from other posters and tobold that a lot of people do not consider dungeons easy. Add my fiancee to that camp. The fact that cyndre find the present content easy enough is no indication of its difficulty for other people. The informal poll that this discussion serves as is a far better indication.
2) Cyndre says - If these casual players who can't play enough to ever get to raiding status, then they can't possibly have enough time to finish lower tier content, so Blizzard doesn't need to make them any new content, because they still have tons left to experience. If the finsihed the lower content completely, they would be ready and able to go raid, so its a Catch 22 in your logic.
Completely off the mark. To finish non-dungeon content is very easy simply because (i) there are by and large no grouping requirement, and (ii) there are no "consecutive hours available" requirement, and (iii) it does not take X wipes before an encounter is mastered, and (iv) it does not take Y hours per week to farm for consumables/gear/attunements etc. In fact I think most casual players will able to finish non-dungeon content much faster than blizz can produce them. And finishing those definitely does not mean they are "ready and able" to raid the harder content. There is simply not enough casual content in the original WoW to last that 2 years until TBC comes out and sufficiently nerf the endgame dungeons to casualness.
(3) I fail to see how the having easymode invalidates the achievements of people who can do the normal/heroic mode. We still have the gear and bragging rights, so what is the issue? The impression that I unfortunately got from cyndre is that his position stems from a sort of twisted selfishness. It takes a certain amount of skill and effort to experience some of the best handcrafted content by blizz currently, and it would seem cyndre wants this withheld from people not meeting the requirement until he himself has experienced it on normal/heroic mode. Furthermore, even if does takes away the achievement (I still don't see how) it would make more sense for blizz to cater to the majority.
To me cyndre's position is indefensible, and it troubles me that tobold is accused (without justification) for quoting out of context et cetera, when it is patently clear that it is cyndre who is not able to come out with a cogent argument for his views.
# posted by : 29/3/07 14:17
: 29/3/07 14:17
1) Dungeons are not supposed to be easy, they're supposed to be challenging.
2)If you finish all of the solo content and aren't ready to do dungeons and raid content then you never will be. Your opinion here makes it obvious you've never tried dungeons to any great extent.
3)Blizzard already does cater to the majority. The success of WoW lies in the ability of Blizzard to make the game accessable to casual players. However, the majority of players are not asking for easier dungeons by and large. And they certainly aren't asking for an easy mode. That is very fringe position.
Cyndre and Tobold both made some valid points, and both were probably quoted out of context to an extent. That doesn't make either position indefensible. But from this readers perspective the cry for easy dungeons is not warranted.
I would argue that you would have an even more difficult time putting a group together to run an "easy" dungeon. Simply level 2-3 levels past a dungeon's standard level range and run it. Trust me, you'll be just fine.
2)If you finish all of the solo content and aren't ready to do dungeons and raid content then you never will be. Your opinion here makes it obvious you've never tried dungeons to any great extent.
3)Blizzard already does cater to the majority. The success of WoW lies in the ability of Blizzard to make the game accessable to casual players. However, the majority of players are not asking for easier dungeons by and large. And they certainly aren't asking for an easy mode. That is very fringe position.
Cyndre and Tobold both made some valid points, and both were probably quoted out of context to an extent. That doesn't make either position indefensible. But from this readers perspective the cry for easy dungeons is not warranted.
I would argue that you would have an even more difficult time putting a group together to run an "easy" dungeon. Simply level 2-3 levels past a dungeon's standard level range and run it. Trust me, you'll be just fine.
# posted by : 30/3/07 02:21
: 30/3/07 02:21
Above poster says -
Simply level 2-3 levels past a dungeon's standard level range and run it. Trust me, you'll be just fine.
You missed the point. There is no way to be a few level above 70 (or 60 in the old WoW), that is the point. For example in the original wow:
i) I did DM at 20, my fiancee at 25
ii) I did SM at 40, my fiancee at 45
iii) I did Scholo at 60, my fiancee never completed it and quitted since no more content (she finished her horde alt plus some mucking around with a few other alts as well).
iv) I started raiding, and my fiancee looks over my shoulder.
I agree that the difficult dungeons are fun, but at the same time I know many who would prefer the choice to have it easier. Point is this, till now nobody have give a good argument why tobold's suggestion (fringe as it may be) is a bad idea. As for raid content, I think I would prefer it somewhat easier though, but I don't mind so much. But having easymode for those as well would make the content accessible. Nothing is taken away from people who revels in beating tough encounters, in fact I am all for making their achievements more visible (via titles and shinier and better gear etc), and so much is given to the others. That is the basic strength of this suggestion.
And I think the suggestion is "fringe" coz nobody has thought of it till now. Look at the above posters, and see how a significant number thinks this is a good idea. And IMHO, nobody has really pointed out yet any serious drawbacks of the idea. My main point is that Cyndre's arguments are vehemently presented, but they are flawed.
At the same time though, this does not mean that there are no problems with Tobold's idea, just that nobody has raised it yet. The only possible exception may be your point that it may be even harder to get a group for easymode, this may happen because easymode will award lousier gear as per Tobold's suggestion. Too much of the discussion has been derailed I think, as it is wont to happen in forums like this.
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Simply level 2-3 levels past a dungeon's standard level range and run it. Trust me, you'll be just fine.
You missed the point. There is no way to be a few level above 70 (or 60 in the old WoW), that is the point. For example in the original wow:
i) I did DM at 20, my fiancee at 25
ii) I did SM at 40, my fiancee at 45
iii) I did Scholo at 60, my fiancee never completed it and quitted since no more content (she finished her horde alt plus some mucking around with a few other alts as well).
iv) I started raiding, and my fiancee looks over my shoulder.
I agree that the difficult dungeons are fun, but at the same time I know many who would prefer the choice to have it easier. Point is this, till now nobody have give a good argument why tobold's suggestion (fringe as it may be) is a bad idea. As for raid content, I think I would prefer it somewhat easier though, but I don't mind so much. But having easymode for those as well would make the content accessible. Nothing is taken away from people who revels in beating tough encounters, in fact I am all for making their achievements more visible (via titles and shinier and better gear etc), and so much is given to the others. That is the basic strength of this suggestion.
And I think the suggestion is "fringe" coz nobody has thought of it till now. Look at the above posters, and see how a significant number thinks this is a good idea. And IMHO, nobody has really pointed out yet any serious drawbacks of the idea. My main point is that Cyndre's arguments are vehemently presented, but they are flawed.
At the same time though, this does not mean that there are no problems with Tobold's idea, just that nobody has raised it yet. The only possible exception may be your point that it may be even harder to get a group for easymode, this may happen because easymode will award lousier gear as per Tobold's suggestion. Too much of the discussion has been derailed I think, as it is wont to happen in forums like this.
# posted by : 30/3/07 08:03
: 30/3/07 08:03<< Home
