www.Tobold.com
Tobold@GMail.com
A blog with my thoughts regarding games I am playing and other stuff in life. Please read my Terms of Service
RSS Feed
Thursday, April 12, 2007
Blizzard vs. WoWGlider
The Forge has a series of articles on the Blizzard vs. WoWGlider lawsuit (link goes to the latest article, follow the links from there). WoWGlider is a bot program for World of Warcraft, and Blizzard not only wants the company that makes it to stop selling it, they also want all of the money the company earned.
Now I never used a bot in my life, as I think that wasting time is what games are made for, so using a program to do it for you is counterproductive. And I certainly don't condone the use of bots. But *somebody* should tell Blizzard that an EULA / TOS is not a piece of legislation. You can ban people using bots, but writing rules to outlaw bots yourself, and then trying to sue somebody based on these self-made rules seems rather spurious to me.
The main reason I don't like macros and bots is that they are living proof that my favorite hobby consists of a series of repetitive actions needing no intelligence. If you and me both started a new level 1 character, and I were to play my character as I play all of my characters about 30 hours a week, and you were to play your character with WoWGlider 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, it is obvious that your character would reach level 70 faster than mine, and have more faction and more gold than my character. Me (hopefully) playing better than a bot is easily outweighed by the bots longer playing hours. The bot is superior to me as a WoW player, measured by the same standards as the leet players think they are superior to me. The bot makes a laughing stock out of any claims that skill is needed to play WoW, because obviously the bot doesn't have skill, but still ends up being more successful in the game than any human player.
So the obvious way for a game company to get rid of bots would be to make a game that really takes skill and intelligence to advance in, and thus couldn't be played by a bot. Blizzard sueing the makers of WoWGlider would be like Ford sueing the makers of screwdrivers, because screwdrivers can be used to hotwire a car and steal it, instead of designing a better lock. Somebody using WoWGlider is breaking his contract with Blizzard, and Blizzard has all the right to ban him for that. But no such contract exists between Blizzard and the makers of WoWGlider. And "providing a tool for customers to break their contracts" is not a criminal offence. I don't see Blizzard sueing the makers of programmable keyboards or mouses.
You can't just sue somebody because you don't like what he does, even if you are multi-million dollar company. Blizzard obviously hopes that a small bot-making company can't pay all the legal fees to effectively defend themselves, and can thus be sued out of existence with a frivolous lawsuit. Whatever you think about bots, that is just wrong. The only people Blizzard has any right to attack are the users of bots, not the makers.
- posted by Tobold @ 3:36 PM Permanent Link
Comments:
<< Home
Newer› ‹Older
Convincing customers to breach their contracts with blizzard could consitute 'tortious interference with a contract', thus subjecting WoWGlider to civil liability for damages. There are also civil and criminal penalties for providing tools for violating access controls and copyright controls on software, which may be occuring in this case.
# posted by 
: 12/4/07 16:32
: 12/4/07 16:32
Your screwdriver analogy is flawed, in that screwdrivers were around before cars and have a well-defined main use. If someone designed and marketed a tool specifically to overcome some socially-accepted security device then it may well end up being made illegal to sell.
That's not to say WoWGlider is illegal. However, its sole purpose is to automate playing WoW, which is both against the terms and conditions for playing the game and potentially harmful for Blizzard's income or service. And I haven't really looked in to it, but I doubt that this is a criminal case and is a civil matter.
It seems to me that Blizzard are being unduly aggressive in their pursuit of the WoWGlider team, but the intent of WoWGlider is clearly anti-social and against the spirit of the game.
That's not to say WoWGlider is illegal. However, its sole purpose is to automate playing WoW, which is both against the terms and conditions for playing the game and potentially harmful for Blizzard's income or service. And I haven't really looked in to it, but I doubt that this is a criminal case and is a civil matter.
It seems to me that Blizzard are being unduly aggressive in their pursuit of the WoWGlider team, but the intent of WoWGlider is clearly anti-social and against the spirit of the game.
We should all sue Blizzard for wasting our tax dollars on this. Illegal or not, this suit is stooooopid!
Your screwdriver analogy is flawed, in that screwdrivers were around before cars and have a well-defined main use.
Yeah, how about a better one: Could the baseball league sue the pharma industry for making steroids? There aren't many uses for steroids besides cheating in sports.
Yeah, how about a better one: Could the baseball league sue the pharma industry for making steroids? There aren't many uses for steroids besides cheating in sports.
Heh, that's interesting, because I have been ill recently, quite unpleasant but nothing serious, and was given steroids for my chest infection. Another member of my family was on steroids for a while for something completely different. My doctor said that steroids are almost a universal panacea.
So I'm afraid that analogy doesn't work either. As I found out myself only recently, steroids are remarkably useful.
So I'm afraid that analogy doesn't work either. As I found out myself only recently, steroids are remarkably useful.
The lawsuit is completely ridiculous. Like Tobold said, the user agreement only applies to the USER, and breach of the agreement results in banning. The makers of WoWGlider are not bound by the user agreement as they're not acting in the role of a user, and even if they were, the only action Blizzard could legally take is to ban all their accounts. The thing that really grates on my nerves is Blizzard suing for all the proceeds. Sue to shut them down and maybe you'd have a case, suing for all the money the company has made makes Blizzard sound like money-grubbing loot whores. Oh wait, its Blizzard. Duh.
Hey, I just wrote a user agreement that states its illegal for games to waste my time. Blizzard's endgame is a huge timesink. I'm gonna sue them for damages, since blizzard broke the terms of this document they aren't bound by! Same thing.
Bots are stupid and bot users should be banned, but I'm really sick of Blizzard behaving like the 800lb Gorilla of the gaming world. That's what EA is for.
Hey, I just wrote a user agreement that states its illegal for games to waste my time. Blizzard's endgame is a huge timesink. I'm gonna sue them for damages, since blizzard broke the terms of this document they aren't bound by! Same thing.
Bots are stupid and bot users should be banned, but I'm really sick of Blizzard behaving like the 800lb Gorilla of the gaming world. That's what EA is for.
# posted by : 12/4/07 18:51
: 12/4/07 18:51
Maybe a better analogy would be in-car radar detectors, designed and built only to detect police radar traps.
These detectors were made illegal, because of their designed purpose, but, interestingly enough, only illegal to use, not to buy (IIRC).
So in this case, it seems that the parallel is that Blizzard should not be able to sue WoWGlider, however obnoxious their software is to them, and only go after the players who use the bots.
These detectors were made illegal, because of their designed purpose, but, interestingly enough, only illegal to use, not to buy (IIRC).
So in this case, it seems that the parallel is that Blizzard should not be able to sue WoWGlider, however obnoxious their software is to them, and only go after the players who use the bots.
The bot makes a laughing stock out of any claims that skill is needed to play WoW, because obviously the bot doesn't have skill, but still ends up being more successful in the game than any human player.
I think you're overstating that argument maybe a bit, given that the chess playing 'bots' you can run on home pc are better at playing chess than all but the best of the very best chess players out there.
Similarly pitting the fastest man in the world on foot (whoever that is at the moment) against even your average speeding vehicle powered by an internal combustion engine, is I think unlikely result in victory for the fastest man in the world despite his doubtless intensive athletics training and years of practice and preparation.
That a thing can be done better or faster by a machine is not all the same as saying that there is no skill or achievement involved in a human managing to do it manually. :)
I think you're overstating that argument maybe a bit, given that the chess playing 'bots' you can run on home pc are better at playing chess than all but the best of the very best chess players out there.
Similarly pitting the fastest man in the world on foot (whoever that is at the moment) against even your average speeding vehicle powered by an internal combustion engine, is I think unlikely result in victory for the fastest man in the world despite his doubtless intensive athletics training and years of practice and preparation.
That a thing can be done better or faster by a machine is not all the same as saying that there is no skill or achievement involved in a human managing to do it manually. :)
# posted by : 12/4/07 19:01
: 12/4/07 19:01
Not familiar with the particulars of this case, but I would guess that:
1) Blizz could probably successfully argue that the makers of WoWGlider utilized WoW in design and test stages, thus placing themselves under the EULA, and
2) It would seem quite likely that WoWGlider's use of the WoW API falls under the EULA.
But underneath that is that one of the biggest problems with software law is that judges and juries are typically uniformed, or even ignorant or misinformed, about how software works.
Doeg
1) Blizz could probably successfully argue that the makers of WoWGlider utilized WoW in design and test stages, thus placing themselves under the EULA, and
2) It would seem quite likely that WoWGlider's use of the WoW API falls under the EULA.
But underneath that is that one of the biggest problems with software law is that judges and juries are typically uniformed, or even ignorant or misinformed, about how software works.
Doeg
# posted by : 12/4/07 19:19
: 12/4/07 19:19
There are actually many cases of something that is used for no legitimate purpose being legally banned. For an old-fashioned one, consider lock-picks. Not all tools are created equal, Tobold. A screwdriver -- or a keyboard or a mouse -- are general purpose tools. Wowglider is a specific tool with a specific purpose, a purpose which is clearly in violation of the EULA.
But speaking more generally but lawyerly to this circumstance: Could I, a victim of financial harm, sue someone who built a device with no beneficial purpose which was used to harm me? You bet your sweet bippy (technical legal term) I could. Happens all the time, every day.
Is this such a case? The key question will, I think, focus around the topic of financial harm done to Blizzard. That's where their argument must be made. If Blizz can show harm caused by this program, they stand a more than decent chance of winning at least a portion of the case.
Blizz is not claiming that MDY is bound by the EULA, but rather that they profited exclusively by interfering with that contract.
I think the copyright infringement argument is weak.
You are correct, Tobold, that providing this tool to break a contract is not a criminal offense. But Blizz is not asking MDY to be taken to jail. This is a civil suit, not a criminal one.
"You can't just sue somebody because you don't like what he does". Well, if what he does is harmful to you (costs Blizz money, in this case), yes you can.
Could major league sue the maker of steriods for providing them to a player to cheat?
Well, first of all, anyone can sue anyone for anything in the US. That's why we lead the world in lawyers per capita.
Would it be a legitimate suit?
Again this is a weak argument, because steroids do have a legitimate medical use. But let's assume there is some performance-enhancing drug that has no other purpose but cheating. And that the provider to a particular athlete was identified.
Could MLB sue that drug maker with a suit that would stand up?
I think that it passes the test. They can show harm from lost ticket sales due to unhappy fans, etc. And the product in question was a key cause of that, and had no legitimate purpose. Therefore the maker was definitely contributaory.
But speaking more generally but lawyerly to this circumstance: Could I, a victim of financial harm, sue someone who built a device with no beneficial purpose which was used to harm me? You bet your sweet bippy (technical legal term) I could. Happens all the time, every day.
Is this such a case? The key question will, I think, focus around the topic of financial harm done to Blizzard. That's where their argument must be made. If Blizz can show harm caused by this program, they stand a more than decent chance of winning at least a portion of the case.
Blizz is not claiming that MDY is bound by the EULA, but rather that they profited exclusively by interfering with that contract.
I think the copyright infringement argument is weak.
You are correct, Tobold, that providing this tool to break a contract is not a criminal offense. But Blizz is not asking MDY to be taken to jail. This is a civil suit, not a criminal one.
"You can't just sue somebody because you don't like what he does". Well, if what he does is harmful to you (costs Blizz money, in this case), yes you can.
Could major league sue the maker of steriods for providing them to a player to cheat?
Well, first of all, anyone can sue anyone for anything in the US. That's why we lead the world in lawyers per capita.
Would it be a legitimate suit?
Again this is a weak argument, because steroids do have a legitimate medical use. But let's assume there is some performance-enhancing drug that has no other purpose but cheating. And that the provider to a particular athlete was identified.
Could MLB sue that drug maker with a suit that would stand up?
I think that it passes the test. They can show harm from lost ticket sales due to unhappy fans, etc. And the product in question was a key cause of that, and had no legitimate purpose. Therefore the maker was definitely contributaory.
# posted by : 12/4/07 19:56
: 12/4/07 19:56
Actually, the "it's all a game" side of me finds Blizzard's argument interesting. (I don't LIKE it, but I find it interesting nonetheless.)
Basically, Blizzard's copyright/DMCA claims boil down to:
- Running a computer program creates a copy in RAM.
- Your right to run the program hinges on the ToS/EULA.
- If you run WoWGlider, you have broken the ToS/EULA, and therefore do not have a license to copy the game into RAM for execution.
- Therefore, WoWGlider (lacking any other use) is a device for copyright infringment.
The right to copy a program into RAM is protected by (at least US) copyright code. It's not 100% settled whether you lose that right upon violation of the EULA.
So all that interests me. Then my inner cynic insists that clearly, Blizzard just wants to snarf up MDY's profits from the sale of WoWGlider. After all, other bots are just banned...
Basically, Blizzard's copyright/DMCA claims boil down to:
- Running a computer program creates a copy in RAM.
- Your right to run the program hinges on the ToS/EULA.
- If you run WoWGlider, you have broken the ToS/EULA, and therefore do not have a license to copy the game into RAM for execution.
- Therefore, WoWGlider (lacking any other use) is a device for copyright infringment.
The right to copy a program into RAM is protected by (at least US) copyright code. It's not 100% settled whether you lose that right upon violation of the EULA.
So all that interests me. Then my inner cynic insists that clearly, Blizzard just wants to snarf up MDY's profits from the sale of WoWGlider. After all, other bots are just banned...
# posted by : 12/4/07 19:58
: 12/4/07 19:58
To say bots prove that WoW takes no skill is rediculous. Lets see 5 bots head into the arena, or 25 try and take down gruul....
As for the law suit... You cannot be punnished fror making asomething like a bot, people can only be punnished for using it. Eod.
As for the law suit... You cannot be punnished fror making asomething like a bot, people can only be punnished for using it. Eod.
# posted by : 12/4/07 20:10
: 12/4/07 20:10
Blizzard just wants to snarf up MDY's profits from the sale of WoWGlider. After all, other bots are just banned...
WoWGlider is banned as well, Blizzard just wants to put a very successful and highly visible thorn out of business. Asking for their proceeds is a way to discourage future entrpenuers from trying to make a quick buck off a cheat or a scam.
I would bet anything that Blizzards legal department has every last i dotted in their case and 100 past prededencts to back up their findings. They will crush this bot company under an avalance of legal paperwork and in the end they will win.
I say good for them. These cheat companies and RMT companies violate the terms and cause undue imbalances in the game. You can argue all you want about design causeing it, but the fact remains that reputable players follow the rules, and cheaters don't. Cheaters gain advantages that they should be prohibitted from gaining.
Perfect example: Last night one of my guild's mages was in a PUG shadowlabs, and cast invis on a wipe then used jumper cables to rez the party. These people reported him for hacking. Thats what we get when people can bot their charachter to 70 or can buy a premade off ebay.
WoWGlider is banned as well, Blizzard just wants to put a very successful and highly visible thorn out of business. Asking for their proceeds is a way to discourage future entrpenuers from trying to make a quick buck off a cheat or a scam.
I would bet anything that Blizzards legal department has every last i dotted in their case and 100 past prededencts to back up their findings. They will crush this bot company under an avalance of legal paperwork and in the end they will win.
I say good for them. These cheat companies and RMT companies violate the terms and cause undue imbalances in the game. You can argue all you want about design causeing it, but the fact remains that reputable players follow the rules, and cheaters don't. Cheaters gain advantages that they should be prohibitted from gaining.
Perfect example: Last night one of my guild's mages was in a PUG shadowlabs, and cast invis on a wipe then used jumper cables to rez the party. These people reported him for hacking. Thats what we get when people can bot their charachter to 70 or can buy a premade off ebay.
I'm curious what the basis is for Blizzard's claim that WoWGlider has hurt them financially in any way. Anyone using WoWGlider is, by definition, a paying customer of Blizzard. They would not be paying any MORE if they were not using the tool. Quite possibly they wouldn't be p(l)aying at all, so it seems to me that, if anything, WoWGlider might make them slightly MORE money, but can't really harm them financially at all.
What's the thinking behind the financial side of this?
What's the thinking behind the financial side of this?
# posted by : 12/4/07 20:40
: 12/4/07 20:40
"To say bots prove that WoW takes no skill is rediculous. Lets see 5 bots head into the arena, or 25 try and take down gruul...."
Hmmm...a little defensive there? If software can beat a chess grandmaster, of course an elaborately-programmed bot can defeat "Gruul" or any other raid encounter. It's might be unfair to say "WoW takes no skill" when the actual quote ought to have been "mmorpgs take no skill - just time" - and I speak as an mmorpg fan.
Hmmm...a little defensive there? If software can beat a chess grandmaster, of course an elaborately-programmed bot can defeat "Gruul" or any other raid encounter. It's might be unfair to say "WoW takes no skill" when the actual quote ought to have been "mmorpgs take no skill - just time" - and I speak as an mmorpg fan.
# posted by : 13/4/07 00:24
: 13/4/07 00:24
Just make the game better, if people need RMT/bots/etc to play it.
Guild wars may have bots... however with the way the world is instanced and how people can simply pay $15 to get the gear/skills other people have to work for (directly from arenasoft or w/e) they eliminated the MIddleperson... and by middleperson im speaking of the RMT/botting/etc companies.
In comparison WoW simply should offer strictly raid centric servers or PvP centric servers with the option to have a pre-built lvl 70 char and access to "core" items needed to participate... such as potions and teired gear or etc. WoW does adjust the game when there is major problems... just not as fast as forum wwhiners want it. Bliz going after WoW-glider is smart in the sense of improving the game for legit subscribers.... but stupid in the sense it indirectly might slash off its unlegit players... (which my guess is a minimum of 10%+ of the playerbase).
Legal battles over ingame video game "value" also brings up another point that... perhaps blizzard should be paying WoWglider for their subtle way of trying to improve upon their own profits... legally, it might not be that hard for WoW_glider team to prove that their addon has benefited WoW's purse and they deserve more of the claim that what they already receive.
I dont mind the players that bot/cheat etc as only in the crappy games it would matter. My lvl 63 palidan can still own people in ebay'd epic chars in BG's. It actually is a feat that might otherwise never happen for my lowby-din. (if everyone was "legit" and all).
Guild wars may have bots... however with the way the world is instanced and how people can simply pay $15 to get the gear/skills other people have to work for (directly from arenasoft or w/e) they eliminated the MIddleperson... and by middleperson im speaking of the RMT/botting/etc companies.
In comparison WoW simply should offer strictly raid centric servers or PvP centric servers with the option to have a pre-built lvl 70 char and access to "core" items needed to participate... such as potions and teired gear or etc. WoW does adjust the game when there is major problems... just not as fast as forum wwhiners want it. Bliz going after WoW-glider is smart in the sense of improving the game for legit subscribers.... but stupid in the sense it indirectly might slash off its unlegit players... (which my guess is a minimum of 10%+ of the playerbase).
Legal battles over ingame video game "value" also brings up another point that... perhaps blizzard should be paying WoWglider for their subtle way of trying to improve upon their own profits... legally, it might not be that hard for WoW_glider team to prove that their addon has benefited WoW's purse and they deserve more of the claim that what they already receive.
I dont mind the players that bot/cheat etc as only in the crappy games it would matter. My lvl 63 palidan can still own people in ebay'd epic chars in BG's. It actually is a feat that might otherwise never happen for my lowby-din. (if everyone was "legit" and all).
A better analogy is the "blue box" used in the '80s and '90s for "phone phreaking" -- a device that bypassed telephone company toll charges by emitting the proper tones. That was its sole purpose. It became illegal in the US to manufacture or own one, and also the phone companies could sue (and easily win) for damages from such manufacturers.
Synthesizer keyboards and computer programs, however, were NOT made illegal even though they could emit the same tones and be used for the same illegal purpose. Nor could the phone companies sue their creators. This is because their majority use and the intent of the manufacturers was not to bypass phone tolls.
WoW Glider is the "blue box" of this analogy. Other third-party programs or products, such as those which can execute scripts/macros within another program, are the music synthesizers of the analogy. WoW Glider is wide open for a successful lawsuit by Blizzard, if the EULA/TOU stands up and damages can be shown. I can't see how Blizzard can lose. But the latter, general purpose third-party programs can't be successfully sued and you won't see Blizzard try.
That's how US law works. Feel free to disagree with the laws and precedents all you want, yet in no way can Blizzard's suit be called frivolous. They're going to win.
Synthesizer keyboards and computer programs, however, were NOT made illegal even though they could emit the same tones and be used for the same illegal purpose. Nor could the phone companies sue their creators. This is because their majority use and the intent of the manufacturers was not to bypass phone tolls.
WoW Glider is the "blue box" of this analogy. Other third-party programs or products, such as those which can execute scripts/macros within another program, are the music synthesizers of the analogy. WoW Glider is wide open for a successful lawsuit by Blizzard, if the EULA/TOU stands up and damages can be shown. I can't see how Blizzard can lose. But the latter, general purpose third-party programs can't be successfully sued and you won't see Blizzard try.
That's how US law works. Feel free to disagree with the laws and precedents all you want, yet in no way can Blizzard's suit be called frivolous. They're going to win.
# posted by : 13/4/07 06:46
: 13/4/07 06:46
The blue box comparison is interesting. The wowglider folks should make a program for debugging programs in memory, providing scripts to automate WoW as well. Somewhat similair to cd burning software + disc emulation.
# posted by : 16/4/07 19:43
: 16/4/07 19:43
Actually I have been following this case quite closely. Blizzard is not suing the maker of Glider, they are counter suing the makers of GLider. MDY filed suit against Blizzard asking a judge to find that their product was fair and legitimate and to please ask Blizzard to stop 'harassing' them. Blizzard asked them to please shut down their product and threatened to take him to court if he didn't.
# posted by : 17/4/07 11:07
: 17/4/07 11:07
I think you all are forgetting that Glider is not a new thing, Its simply a bot with costimized features. so thats a Nogo on the theory on "Sole purpose is to harm blizzard" its more like old invention used for a specific task
As you might now realize it the only real think the glider company is selling you is a fancy UI on your bot.
As you might now realize it the only real think the glider company is selling you is a fancy UI on your bot.
# posted by : 23/4/07 21:38
: 23/4/07 21:38
Oh, and all other features of wowglider besides the "Bot" is all either passive or not interacting with wow. so they are all legal.
# posted by : 23/4/07 21:44
: 23/4/07 21:44
Yeah, how about a better one: Could the baseball league sue the pharma industry for making steroids? There aren't many uses for steroids besides cheating in sports
There are plenty of other uses for steroids. But even if there were only a few, that doesn't matter. Glider's sole purpose and use is to automate WoW. There IS NO OTHER USE for Glider.
There are plenty of other uses for steroids. But even if there were only a few, that doesn't matter. Glider's sole purpose and use is to automate WoW. There IS NO OTHER USE for Glider.
# posted by : 10/1/08 21:43
: 10/1/08 21:43
The blue box comparison doesn't work at all. Blue boxes were meant to avoid payment, thus causing financial damage. Glider users actually pay for the priviledge, and many of them have multiple accounts. Blizzard would have to prove that more people quite because of bots than were using them (which would be almost impossible to show).
The DMCA arguement might work, reverse engineering and such, but Glider violating the EULA is meaningless. The only penalty for doing so is cancelling your account, and they could just as easily develop and test on a private server.
The DMCA arguement might work, reverse engineering and such, but Glider violating the EULA is meaningless. The only penalty for doing so is cancelling your account, and they could just as easily develop and test on a private server.
# posted by : 7/3/08 19:16
: 7/3/08 19:16
Does anyone know where this case stands now? It's been more than a year since there has been any real news.
# posted by : 7/3/08 19:18
: 7/3/08 19:18
Car makers can't control how end users drive their cars, computer makers can't control what end users do with them and Blizzard should NOT be interfering in how end users play their game... it's called freedom and rights.
Blizzard can't force people to take 2 weeks to finish a quest if the user figures out a way to do it in 1.5, this is no different.
DO NOT confuse wow glider with selling gold, Blizzard should be after the dozens of websites who sell gold... that IS against the terms completely. No gold selling = no wholesale farming. Mythic entertainment went after websites and even the big sellers had enough... Blizzard is trying to create law and wasting a lot of time and money in the process... the websites are safe while the legal team is tied up with this.
Post a Comment
Blizzard can't force people to take 2 weeks to finish a quest if the user figures out a way to do it in 1.5, this is no different.
DO NOT confuse wow glider with selling gold, Blizzard should be after the dozens of websites who sell gold... that IS against the terms completely. No gold selling = no wholesale farming. Mythic entertainment went after websites and even the big sellers had enough... Blizzard is trying to create law and wasting a lot of time and money in the process... the websites are safe while the legal team is tied up with this.
<< Home
