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Tuesday, April 10, 2007
Less consumables used for raiding?
I just read some more news on the upcoming profession changes, announced by Nethaera on the offical WoW forums.
AlchemyMakes me quite happy that I just finished leveling my alchemist warrior to 70, because I used to have 5 elixir buffs on me all the time while soloing, and soon you won't be able to have more than 2. It also tells me that I definitely won't be shooting for elixir mastery, now that you need less of them.
- Elixirs now stack in two categories, Battle (Offensive) and Guardian (Defensive) Elixirs. You can only have one of each type of Elixir up at a time. As a result Elixirs now stack with class abilities such as "Arcane Intellect."
- Four new defensive elixirs have been added. Two are on trainers, one is in Halaa and one is in Cenarion Expedition.
- "Flask of Petrification" can no longer be turned off during its duration, but it now will clear all threat from all monsters for the duration of the effect. Though monsters may reaquire you after the effect ends.
- The cost to purchase Imbued Vials has been reduced.
But of course for raiders this change will make raiding a lot cheaper, as nobody can demand from you to drink more than 2 elixirs per wipe. Depending on how they are divided, it is even possible that some classes can only drink 1 elixir that gives them meaningful raiding stats, unless they find a way to make useful "Guardian" elixirs for dps classes. We'll have to wait and see how the new recipes turn out.
While making the imbued vials cheaper is nice, the main effect of the changes will be that alchemists will be even less in demand, as people will drink less potions. Probably there will soon be a consensus about what the "best" elixirs are for any given class, and then nothing else will sell any more. I think I'll better specialize in potion mastery and hope that they don't do major changes to the way how healing and mana potions work.
Other professions also had changes, but not so major ones. Jewelcrafting gets a color sorted interface for gems, fishing becomes faster, and seaforium charges will be able to blast open locked chests. All very nice, but not as groundbreaking as completely changing the way how elixirs work.
- posted by Tobold @ 3:25 PM Permanent Link
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On behalf of Leatherworkers everywhere I would like to say that my ankles could use some handles at this point.
In regards to the alchemy changes, the current situation really changes absolutely nothing for hardcore raiding at all. Raiding will still require massive farming to accomplish.
Elixirs are not the problem, flasks are. For example, my guild killed Gruul for the first time last night, and every single player had a flask of some kind on. I posted the following to the elitist jerk's forum, but I will repeat it here.
The 2.1 Alchemy Checklist
1. Casters chain chugging Mana potions still? Check.
2. Tanks chain chugging Stoneshields still? Check.
3. Full flasking of raids still? Check.
4. Herbalism still the most important raiding profession? Check.
5. Full buffs is two elixirs + food + flask + world buffs? Check.
Meet the new Alchemy, same as the old Alchemy.
Elixirs are not the problem, flasks are. For example, my guild killed Gruul for the first time last night, and every single player had a flask of some kind on. I posted the following to the elitist jerk's forum, but I will repeat it here.
The 2.1 Alchemy Checklist
1. Casters chain chugging Mana potions still? Check.
2. Tanks chain chugging Stoneshields still? Check.
3. Full flasking of raids still? Check.
4. Herbalism still the most important raiding profession? Check.
5. Full buffs is two elixirs + food + flask + world buffs? Check.
Meet the new Alchemy, same as the old Alchemy.
# posted by 
: 10/4/07 16:59
: 10/4/07 16:59
I still fail to see how this is an enhancement to alchemy, which desperately needed help for the common person. I looted my 5th epic world item last night, but still have not a single "discovery" recipe, which of course are the useful recipes. Doing some shadowmoon quests last night, I got a drop of Fel Mana potion, which is one of those BoP only-see-if-you're-an-alchemist recipes from the same guys who gave my enchanter one of his Spell Power enchants. That enchant? Useful. This potion? Why would I use it? I gain mana back, but get - damage/healing for using it...uh, why would I want to use this? Especially if I had an alchemist stone going, thus crippling myself for 15 minutes.
They should have taken half of the discovery potions at least and moved them to world drops/trainer. Also, I think elixiry mastery still is useful since it covers flasks, which just became even more valuable.
They should have taken half of the discovery potions at least and moved them to world drops/trainer. Also, I think elixiry mastery still is useful since it covers flasks, which just became even more valuable.
# posted by : 10/4/07 17:14
: 10/4/07 17:14
Here's what I'm not sure of. The first bullet says you can only have one of each type of elixir up at the same time, right? So that means that you couldn't have an Elixir of Major Firepower and an Adept's Elixir up at the same time, correct? That seems like it would be sort of a nerf, not a boost, at least from an output standpoint.
Really, alchemy needs a giant nerf for the sake of raiding sanity. As much non/casual raiders enjoy alchemy/herbalism (Do they really, I don't know), the fact of the matter is right now alchemy far too powerful.
Bosses need to be balanced around 'full buffs', which means if you want to kill them, you need to spend 100s of gold every night to raid. What's worse is that gear upgrades are terrible, so you will still be 'full flasked' on your 10th kill to. WoW is based on temporary progression. Farming for X hours gives you Y hours of raiding. Blah.
Nothing short of just outright removing flasks, nerfing the power of consumables and rebalancing raid bosses will do.
Bosses need to be balanced around 'full buffs', which means if you want to kill them, you need to spend 100s of gold every night to raid. What's worse is that gear upgrades are terrible, so you will still be 'full flasked' on your 10th kill to. WoW is based on temporary progression. Farming for X hours gives you Y hours of raiding. Blah.
Nothing short of just outright removing flasks, nerfing the power of consumables and rebalancing raid bosses will do.
# posted by : 10/4/07 17:44
: 10/4/07 17:44
Still the same problem with alchemy: It's completely useless when you have 4 alchemists an your server.
# posted by : 10/4/07 17:57
: 10/4/07 17:57
I think blizzard should really dumb down their fights....or should I say "BALANCE" their fights based on no flasks are elixers. Just group buffs and current gear(for example mc gear before bwl, etc....). Therefore you don't need to farm, but if you do you will have a slight advantage.
Maybe blizzard should test these fights out prior to releasing them too...I'd like to be experiencing cutting edge content but I know its not worth the time our fustration when I can wait a few months for raids to get nerfed....then I also get the advantage of going with a more experienced group.......ploop.;
Maybe blizzard should test these fights out prior to releasing them too...I'd like to be experiencing cutting edge content but I know its not worth the time our fustration when I can wait a few months for raids to get nerfed....then I also get the advantage of going with a more experienced group.......ploop.;
I wrote about this yesterday, and agree with the above posters who are saying thsi is a solid nerf that will force us to farm exponentially more to compensate with Flasks.
http://cyndre.blogspot.com/2007/04/profession-changes-in-201.html
http://cyndre.blogspot.com/2007/04/profession-changes-in-201.html
Nothing short of just outright removing flasks, nerfing the power of consumables and rebalancing raid bosses will do.
I agree completely. I used the xpac as an excuse to make a clean break from raiding, but it was my inability to find time to come to raids prepared that really did it.
If I could show up, and the encounter be all about my skill, and that of our raid, I'd still be raiding. But without wholesale changes to consumables (or my preferred solution: full scale elimination and alchemy becoming a profession revolving around transmutes) I'm done forever.
I agree completely. I used the xpac as an excuse to make a clean break from raiding, but it was my inability to find time to come to raids prepared that really did it.
If I could show up, and the encounter be all about my skill, and that of our raid, I'd still be raiding. But without wholesale changes to consumables (or my preferred solution: full scale elimination and alchemy becoming a profession revolving around transmutes) I'm done forever.
# posted by : 10/4/07 19:28
: 10/4/07 19:28
Err, uh, let me make this easy for you to understand.
The flask nerf is so that Blizz can make instances easier (without flasks offsetting difficulty).
It's what you've been asking for.
The flask nerf is so that Blizz can make instances easier (without flasks offsetting difficulty).
It's what you've been asking for.
# posted by : 10/4/07 20:36
: 10/4/07 20:36
Anonymous said...
Err, uh, let me make this easy for you to understand.
The flask nerf is so that Blizz can make instances easier (without flasks offsetting difficulty).
It's what you've been asking for.
Considering that the only time the word "flask" is mentioned is in relation to the Flask of Petrification (and what it says has no relation to the raiding issue and consumables) I'm not sure where you get that. Most raiders hope that's what they're intending to do, but the statement from Blizzard indicates nothing of the sort.
Err, uh, let me make this easy for you to understand.
The flask nerf is so that Blizz can make instances easier (without flasks offsetting difficulty).
It's what you've been asking for.
Considering that the only time the word "flask" is mentioned is in relation to the Flask of Petrification (and what it says has no relation to the raiding issue and consumables) I'm not sure where you get that. Most raiders hope that's what they're intending to do, but the statement from Blizzard indicates nothing of the sort.
The 2.1 Alchemy Checklist
1. Casters chain chugging Mana potions still? Check.
2. Tanks chain chugging Stoneshields still? Check.
3. Full flasking of raids still? Check.
4. Herbalism still the most important raiding profession? Check.
5. Full buffs is two elixirs + food + flask + world buffs? Check.
That was also on the Elitist Jerks forum today, and I agree completely. There are two core problems, both of which are only weakly addressed:
1) farming time
2) consumables > 1 Tier of gear
Farming time has only been reduced slightly, and only if people aren't required to use flasks even more often to compensate. Frankly, unless raid content is significantly retuned or there are serious changes to flasks, I'd expect this to increase the amount of farming required for most guilds.
Reducing the number of elixirs has reduced the gap slightly, but full consumables are still far greater than the difference between Tier3/Dungeon3 and Tier5.
All the changes announced so far, from the improved Warrior gear example to the profession changes are window dressing. They're marketing. Something to put on the forums and hope the players can't do math. I see nothing that would make me reconsider raiding in WoW.
But, hey, it's not all bad news. LotRO didn't make a great first impression, but it's grown on me since then. And the new solo and 5-man content in WoW's 2.1 patch could be interesting.
1. Casters chain chugging Mana potions still? Check.
2. Tanks chain chugging Stoneshields still? Check.
3. Full flasking of raids still? Check.
4. Herbalism still the most important raiding profession? Check.
5. Full buffs is two elixirs + food + flask + world buffs? Check.
That was also on the Elitist Jerks forum today, and I agree completely. There are two core problems, both of which are only weakly addressed:
1) farming time
2) consumables > 1 Tier of gear
Farming time has only been reduced slightly, and only if people aren't required to use flasks even more often to compensate. Frankly, unless raid content is significantly retuned or there are serious changes to flasks, I'd expect this to increase the amount of farming required for most guilds.
Reducing the number of elixirs has reduced the gap slightly, but full consumables are still far greater than the difference between Tier3/Dungeon3 and Tier5.
All the changes announced so far, from the improved Warrior gear example to the profession changes are window dressing. They're marketing. Something to put on the forums and hope the players can't do math. I see nothing that would make me reconsider raiding in WoW.
But, hey, it's not all bad news. LotRO didn't make a great first impression, but it's grown on me since then. And the new solo and 5-man content in WoW's 2.1 patch could be interesting.
Speaking of the profession changes all-around, and me being an engineer, I have to say I was severely dissapointed with the preview of the Engineering changes they announced. I mean, okay we'll be able to make plate helms (about time) and we'll have something to open locked chests with (though I'm guessing it will be an expensive item to make), but... They still haven't announced something that said we'd be able to make stuff that sells at the AH (meaning, not requiring Engineering to use).
One thing I'd love to see with the 'requires engineering' bit removed would be the mana/health pot injectors. What sense does it make for it to be for engineers only? :\
When Blizzard mentioned they'd buff Engineering I was happy, but now after the preview... I'm thinking of dumping it for BS. At least I can make stuff with it that I can sell (and a really good set of healadin wrists for myself).
I'm going to wait and see about the final changes list, but BS is looking a lot more handy atm... :\
Sophia the Healadin
One thing I'd love to see with the 'requires engineering' bit removed would be the mana/health pot injectors. What sense does it make for it to be for engineers only? :\
When Blizzard mentioned they'd buff Engineering I was happy, but now after the preview... I'm thinking of dumping it for BS. At least I can make stuff with it that I can sell (and a really good set of healadin wrists for myself).
I'm going to wait and see about the final changes list, but BS is looking a lot more handy atm... :\
Sophia the Healadin
# posted by : 11/4/07 11:30
: 11/4/07 11:30
Sophia the Healadin said:
I'm thinking of dumping it for BS. At least I can make stuff with it that I can sell (and a really good set of healadin wrists for myself).
Based on my experience with several professions, if you want to be able to sell things profitably on the AH go for skinning and either mining or herbalsim. Blacksmithing is a perfect way to turn 150 gold of ore and primals into an item that will sell for 75 gold, if you aren't undercut by someone making that item for the skill points.
I'm thinking of dumping it for BS. At least I can make stuff with it that I can sell (and a really good set of healadin wrists for myself).
Based on my experience with several professions, if you want to be able to sell things profitably on the AH go for skinning and either mining or herbalsim. Blacksmithing is a perfect way to turn 150 gold of ore and primals into an item that will sell for 75 gold, if you aren't undercut by someone making that item for the skill points.
# posted by : 11/4/07 16:59
: 11/4/07 16:59
Albatross said... "Considering that the only time the word "flask" is mentioned is in relation to the Flask of Petrification (and what it says has no relation to the raiding issue and consumables) I'm not sure where you get that. Most raiders hope that's what they're intending to do, but the statement from Blizzard indicates nothing of the sort. "
I'm talking about stacking these types of flasks in raids. Raiders stack two offense flasks. Now they can't. Thats where I get that.
Flask of Petrification
Flask of Chromatic Resistance
Flask of Distilled Wisdom
Flask of Supreme Power
Flask of the Titans
This blog and others harp on how too hard the heroics are and needs for consumables. Ommra (Blizzard) had this to say about it "...We want Flasks and Elixirs to be a part of the game. We want alchemy to be a cool, needed profession. But we want to remove the tedium and cost from the massive consumable farming that’s going on for endgame raiding...".
So back to my orginal post. The changes to alchemy (flasks) is so Blizzard can make instances easier without fear that consumables will offset difficulty. It's what the masses want.
I'm talking about stacking these types of flasks in raids. Raiders stack two offense flasks. Now they can't. Thats where I get that.
Flask of Petrification
Flask of Chromatic Resistance
Flask of Distilled Wisdom
Flask of Supreme Power
Flask of the Titans
This blog and others harp on how too hard the heroics are and needs for consumables. Ommra (Blizzard) had this to say about it "...We want Flasks and Elixirs to be a part of the game. We want alchemy to be a cool, needed profession. But we want to remove the tedium and cost from the massive consumable farming that’s going on for endgame raiding...".
So back to my orginal post. The changes to alchemy (flasks) is so Blizzard can make instances easier without fear that consumables will offset difficulty. It's what the masses want.
# posted by : 11/4/07 22:19
: 11/4/07 22:19
I'm talking about stacking these types of flasks in raids. Raiders stack two offense flasks. Now they can't. Thats where I get that.
Flask of Petrification
Flask of Chromatic Resistance
Flask of Distilled Wisdom
Flask of Supreme Power
Flask of the Titans
What's amazing is that you somehow missed the entire point of the first posting and yet still ended up being correct.
If you read what Tobold originally quoted, it never mentioned flasks. It mentioned elixirs. They aren't the same thing. You were operating under the assumption that flasks and elixirs could be substituted for each other which isn't correct.
Of course, the news today is that a flask takes both the offensive and defensive elixir slots, thereby allowing you to choose between 1 offensive and 1 defensive elixir, or 1 flask. This is a little bit closer to what the raid community was hoping to see, although there does appear to still be some glaring issues with it (mainly how much more valuable this seems to make individual flasks and the bottleneck of herbs to make those flasks).
Flask of Petrification
Flask of Chromatic Resistance
Flask of Distilled Wisdom
Flask of Supreme Power
Flask of the Titans
What's amazing is that you somehow missed the entire point of the first posting and yet still ended up being correct.
If you read what Tobold originally quoted, it never mentioned flasks. It mentioned elixirs. They aren't the same thing. You were operating under the assumption that flasks and elixirs could be substituted for each other which isn't correct.
Of course, the news today is that a flask takes both the offensive and defensive elixir slots, thereby allowing you to choose between 1 offensive and 1 defensive elixir, or 1 flask. This is a little bit closer to what the raid community was hoping to see, although there does appear to still be some glaring issues with it (mainly how much more valuable this seems to make individual flasks and the bottleneck of herbs to make those flasks).
Yes, updated info here.
This is more in-line with the consumables change I was expecting. Either 1 flask or 2 elixirs. Assuming they do a decent job rebalancing the content for this (note they balance with the assumption of 1 flask per member), it will actually reduce the consumables used quite a bit. This isn't my ideal solution, but I no longer think the changes aren't addressing the issue. This is going to be a fairly large reduction in farming.
This is more in-line with the consumables change I was expecting. Either 1 flask or 2 elixirs. Assuming they do a decent job rebalancing the content for this (note they balance with the assumption of 1 flask per member), it will actually reduce the consumables used quite a bit. This isn't my ideal solution, but I no longer think the changes aren't addressing the issue. This is going to be a fairly large reduction in farming.
Also, there's even more on the EJ forums. I wish I'd read that along with the official announcements instead of a day later...
Tigole posts on that page and the next one. The main point is that flasks and the cost of flaks are being nerfed.
Of course, if this all works out, I'll have to choose between WoW and LotRO...
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Tigole posts on that page and the next one. The main point is that flasks and the cost of flaks are being nerfed.
Of course, if this all works out, I'll have to choose between WoW and LotRO...
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