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Friday, May 04, 2007
Dragging real-world issues into virtual worlds
Salon has an article about gay marriage in LotRO, where the game developers ended up removing the marriage feature completely to avoid the issue. You can make elaborate family trees spanning up to 20 generations with the /adopt command, but you can't marry in LotRO, neither same nor other sex. If find that totally silly.
In the real world I don't mind gay marriage, although I think that the term "marriage" has such a religious significance that it would be better to call it civil union, but give it exactly the same legal status as a marriage. And of course I have absolutely nothing against interracial marriages. But a gay dwarf marrying a gay hobbit in LotRO? No way! Just like I would support the right of a catholic priest to not perform a gay marriage ceremony, I support the right of the Tolkien estate to define marriage as a union between a man and a women of the same race, with the possible exception of human / elf marriages, in the context of the world of Middle-Earth. If two gay players want to marry in-game, one of them could simply create a female character. There is no reason to destroy the Tolkien lore just to defend your real-world rights.
Games *must* be allowed to have rules that go beyond the rules of the real world. Just because in the real world you have the right to touch a ball with your hands doesn't mean you should be allowed to do so in a soccer game. There are a million things I can do in the real world that I can't do in a MMORPG, starting from simple things like climbing a fence. So why of all things should gay virtual marriage be an inalienable right in a virtual world? As JRR Tolkien was a conservative person with strong christian beliefs, there are no gay hobbits anywhere in the Lord of the Rings lore. And like it or not, the Tolkien lore is part of the rules of Lord of the Rings online, and if you want to play the game you need to follow these rules. So I propose that Turbine stops worrying about political correctness and put the marriage feature in, restricted to marrying a person of the other sex and specific races. You need to be silly to call that gay-bashing and racist. Such real world issues simply shouldn't be dragged into virtual fantasy worlds, unless these are designed to deal with them.
- posted by Tobold @ 8:31 AM Permanent Link
Comments:
GSH said...
We could take it a step further. All good human characters should be white, and black humans reserved for enemy NPCs.
That would arguably match up with Tolkein lore (descriptions of the Haradrim, for example).
You know, you have to work really hard to read all of Tolkien's work, and dig out the text that justifies such a remarkably smug, and pretentious, point of view.
Though it does illustrate the danger of political correctness. Good and decent people expose evil where they see it, but the "socially enlightened" look for it in places where it either doesn't exist, or doesn't matter, while sometimes ignoring far worse dangers staring them in the face.
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Well, this topic could get interesting )
Just how far should a publisher go to stay true to the license? In Turbines case, they were able to retain pipe smoking, and that must have been a huge fight, so give em some credit.
I don't care what gay players do in mmorpgs, but it seems sometimes that it's awfully damn important to them that they get noticed.
What? You're Gay? Really? Well, I had no idea. You've only mentioned it 342 times since you joined the group )
Are lesbians and feminist going to complain that there are no female Dwaves?
And who was that nutty Brit who swears up and down that Tolkien's work is racist. Well, of course it is. How could it not be with all those dark skinned Orcs and light skinned Elves. Anyone who honestly believes that, btw, is a dolt.
The bottom line is that political correctness sucks, and it sucks even more when it worms it's way into what should be nothing more than a simple game.
Why must everything be turned into a grand social experiment.
Just how far should a publisher go to stay true to the license? In Turbines case, they were able to retain pipe smoking, and that must have been a huge fight, so give em some credit.
I don't care what gay players do in mmorpgs, but it seems sometimes that it's awfully damn important to them that they get noticed.
What? You're Gay? Really? Well, I had no idea. You've only mentioned it 342 times since you joined the group )
Are lesbians and feminist going to complain that there are no female Dwaves?
And who was that nutty Brit who swears up and down that Tolkien's work is racist. Well, of course it is. How could it not be with all those dark skinned Orcs and light skinned Elves. Anyone who honestly believes that, btw, is a dolt.
The bottom line is that political correctness sucks, and it sucks even more when it worms it's way into what should be nothing more than a simple game.
Why must everything be turned into a grand social experiment.
# posted by 
: 4/5/07 09:47
: 4/5/07 09:47
We could take it a step further. All good human characters should be white, and black humans reserved for enemy NPCs.
That would arguably match up with Tolkein lore (descriptions of the Haradrim, for example).
Heck, why are female characters even playable? It's pretty clear that Eowyn was an aberration, and almost totally not expected to actually fight. Is seeing female fighters at every turn really in the spirit of the LotR?
That would arguably match up with Tolkein lore (descriptions of the Haradrim, for example).
Heck, why are female characters even playable? It's pretty clear that Eowyn was an aberration, and almost totally not expected to actually fight. Is seeing female fighters at every turn really in the spirit of the LotR?
Actually, given the year in which it was written, the Lord of the Rings is rather enlightened both in respect to race and to feminism. After all it is a book in which for example elves and dwarves overcome racial hatred to work together for a greater good. And women play a major role in that, in leading functions, if not necessarily on the battlefield.
Totally absolutely agree that RL political correctness and sexuality issues shouldn't be allowed to mess up the Lore of a virtual world. If homosexuality simply does not exist in Middle Earth, then it shouldn't be in the game as part of the game rules nor should it impact on what should be allowed in that Lore.
However, though I'm not "gay" myself, I do think your comment "If two gay players want to marry in-game, one of them could simply create a female character" is a little of the mark. A gay man is still a man, and not necessarily a transvestite - and may have no interest in playing a female character - unlike a lot heterosexual males who don't mind at all, especially if their character has a cute ass and big knockers :P
However, though I'm not "gay" myself, I do think your comment "If two gay players want to marry in-game, one of them could simply create a female character" is a little of the mark. A gay man is still a man, and not necessarily a transvestite - and may have no interest in playing a female character - unlike a lot heterosexual males who don't mind at all, especially if their character has a cute ass and big knockers :P
Are you saying gay men can't play Tomb Raider? :) Some games simply have fixed gender main characters, and you'll need to play with what is available. Just because for some reason I play a female character doesn't make me transgender in real life.
This discussion makes me wonder how female characters will work in Age of Conan. The books are the second-most sexist fantasy I've read, only beaten by the Gor books. And can you honestly say that the vision of a gay Conan wouldn't hurt the Robert E. Howard lore?
This discussion makes me wonder how female characters will work in Age of Conan. The books are the second-most sexist fantasy I've read, only beaten by the Gor books. And can you honestly say that the vision of a gay Conan wouldn't hurt the Robert E. Howard lore?
Are lesbians and feminist going to complain that there are no female Dwaves?
I'm not playing LotRO, but as far as I heard you can not choose the gender of you dwarf, but it's not explicitely stated that the dwarfyou create is male, is it? For dwarves, gender simply doesn't matter, and if it follows the Terry Pratchet principle, even female dwarfs got beards and are hardly distinguishable from their male counterparts (apart from 'softer' beards) ;)
And for the lore, what's Tolkien's concept of female dwarves? Are they among the male ones, indistinguishable, or are they gone to a faraway place, just as the female Ents (IIRC)?
As for the political correctness, shouldn't it be 'vertically challenged person' instead of dwarf? *shudder*
I'm not playing LotRO, but as far as I heard you can not choose the gender of you dwarf, but it's not explicitely stated that the dwarfyou create is male, is it? For dwarves, gender simply doesn't matter, and if it follows the Terry Pratchet principle, even female dwarfs got beards and are hardly distinguishable from their male counterparts (apart from 'softer' beards) ;)
And for the lore, what's Tolkien's concept of female dwarves? Are they among the male ones, indistinguishable, or are they gone to a faraway place, just as the female Ents (IIRC)?
As for the political correctness, shouldn't it be 'vertically challenged person' instead of dwarf? *shudder*
# posted by : 4/5/07 11:16
: 4/5/07 11:16
In Middle earth (and not just LotR), the various races almost never interbreed. The obvious exceptions to this are the Half-Elven children of Elwing (Elf) and Earendil (Man), and of course Elrond is the only surviving Half-Elf, as he chose to follow the Elven destiny.
Dwarves are incredibly secretive and insular; the idea of any of them marrying someone from another race is pretty ludicrous.
I don't suppose it matters too much on normal servers, but on a RP server, people should try and be faithful to the lore.
Dwarves are incredibly secretive and insular; the idea of any of them marrying someone from another race is pretty ludicrous.
I don't suppose it matters too much on normal servers, but on a RP server, people should try and be faithful to the lore.
# posted by : 4/5/07 11:53
: 4/5/07 11:53
I could care less about marriage in virtual worlds or MMORPGs, because I just don't see the point.
OTOH, the point does need to be made that just because something wasn't mentioned in the original lore doesn't preclude its existence. If the lore of LotR was written today, I'd bet a lot of money that gay marriage would have been addressed in some form.
Finally, no gay hobbits? Did no one read the book? Was no one else thinking "Oh just kiss him!" when they saw the movies?
OTOH, the point does need to be made that just because something wasn't mentioned in the original lore doesn't preclude its existence. If the lore of LotR was written today, I'd bet a lot of money that gay marriage would have been addressed in some form.
Finally, no gay hobbits? Did no one read the book? Was no one else thinking "Oh just kiss him!" when they saw the movies?
I think comparing a role playing game where you can interact with other humans with an action game like Tomb Raider isn't a valid argument in the context of what I was saying :D
Telling a Gay man he has to play a Female character in order to "marry" another Gay man is likely to offend them just as much as telling them they can't marry in the first place.
Perhaps that is more succinct than my first attempt :)
I agree with everything else said in the blog, I just have reservations that saying "well, go play a female and you can marry" isn't going to wash with that particular audience. Regardless if they play Tomb Raider or not :D
Telling a Gay man he has to play a Female character in order to "marry" another Gay man is likely to offend them just as much as telling them they can't marry in the first place.
Perhaps that is more succinct than my first attempt :)
I agree with everything else said in the blog, I just have reservations that saying "well, go play a female and you can marry" isn't going to wash with that particular audience. Regardless if they play Tomb Raider or not :D
As for the political correctness, shouldn't it be 'vertically challenged person' instead of dwarf? *shudder*
I've always preferred the Pratchettism of "Lawn Ornament"
:D
I've always preferred the Pratchettism of "Lawn Ornament"
:D
I'd like to point out that the Tolkien Estate has nothing whatsoever to do with the Lord of the Rings Online.
The rights for LotRO type creations were purchased from J.R.R. Tolkien in the late 60s/early 70s and the Tolkien Estate, as far as I know, receives no benefits from this game or any other media produced based on The Hobbit or the Lord of the Rings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolkien_Enterprises
Aside from that, I completely agree with the premise of the article that special interest groups shouldn't be rewriting history in a fictional world to meet their own out of fictional world needs.
The rights for LotRO type creations were purchased from J.R.R. Tolkien in the late 60s/early 70s and the Tolkien Estate, as far as I know, receives no benefits from this game or any other media produced based on The Hobbit or the Lord of the Rings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolkien_Enterprises
Aside from that, I completely agree with the premise of the article that special interest groups shouldn't be rewriting history in a fictional world to meet their own out of fictional world needs.
# posted by : 4/5/07 12:56
: 4/5/07 12:56
I wonder how much of the need to push gay rights ingame comes from being a bit tired with 16-year old kids who acts like gay is the worst thing they can call another player tho? I'd be all for a deal where LoTRO had no gay marriages and no gay bashing in whatever is the equivalent of general chat in WoW. (Not accusing anyone here of doing such things of course, just pointing out that there might be more than one reason why people insists on being positively recognized in a virtual world - lots of negative language could make that need a lot larger).
# posted by : 4/5/07 13:05
: 4/5/07 13:05
I could care less about marriage in virtual worlds or MMORPGs, because I just don't see the point.It is just fooling around and make believe. When I participated in a virtual wedding as a quest in WoW, we got into the cathedral for the ceremony, then rode around Stromwind and got virtually drunk. Next day we played as usual. Good fun. Also, virtual booze and drunkedness was the only game supported aspect of the party.
I'm sure gays (and non-gays) can get "married" in LotRO just fine, just like other games. So what if the game doesn't mechanically support it.
*Ikuturso*
I'm sure gays (and non-gays) can get "married" in LotRO just fine, just like other games. So what if the game doesn't mechanically support it.
*Ikuturso*
# posted by : 4/5/07 13:31
: 4/5/07 13:31
I can sympathize with those who only want marriage that is internally consistent with the LotR setting (and I think we can all agree that Sam and Frodo were probably nothing more than bicurious) I would prefer the addition of same-sex marriage as well. Interaction between players is based more on the real-life players than their in-game characters, and in-game systems should acknowledge that and do the fair thing instead of following the lore to the letter.
Tobold: You say in your comment above that Tolkien was "progressive for his time."
I agree with this, but then make the game progressive.
You can't have it both ways. You can't say "Stay true to the lore" and have black characters be anything but evil, for example.
I agree with this, but then make the game progressive.
You can't have it both ways. You can't say "Stay true to the lore" and have black characters be anything but evil, for example.
GSH said...
We could take it a step further. All good human characters should be white, and black humans reserved for enemy NPCs.
That would arguably match up with Tolkein lore (descriptions of the Haradrim, for example).
You know, you have to work really hard to read all of Tolkien's work, and dig out the text that justifies such a remarkably smug, and pretentious, point of view.
Though it does illustrate the danger of political correctness. Good and decent people expose evil where they see it, but the "socially enlightened" look for it in places where it either doesn't exist, or doesn't matter, while sometimes ignoring far worse dangers staring them in the face.
# posted by : 4/5/07 14:38
: 4/5/07 14:38
Well there is a gay guild on my server, and unlike Blizzard, Turbine has not dismantled it or told them to knock it off. They have taken down posts about GLBT issues, from both groups, but let them advertise to gain members. I think that's a huge step forward.
But as far as marriage, i think what they did was the best all around - no one is offended by simply not allowing marriage at all. But if they allowed marriage and either did or did not put in restrictions, somebody will raise a stink. Better to avoid the issue altogether.
But as far as marriage, i think what they did was the best all around - no one is offended by simply not allowing marriage at all. But if they allowed marriage and either did or did not put in restrictions, somebody will raise a stink. Better to avoid the issue altogether.
# posted by : 4/5/07 15:06
: 4/5/07 15:06
There's a grey area in MMOGs when it comes to what is and what is not allowed in terms of player interaction, because an important basis of the game is the interactive element, whether it is through grouping, RP, or chat. So limitations, especially ones that are perhaps designed to prevent interactions that are still quite controversial in the real world, can seem arbitrary and artificial. Especially when you can do things like name other players as children or parents but not as spouses.
I'd guess that if this game were being developed 20 years from now, gay marriage between PCs might well be allowed and still thought to be in the spirit of what Tolkienn would have approved of. Likewise, if this game had been developed 15 years ago, how accepting would players have been for allowing female characters to be melee fighters?
Yunk, if you're on Landroval (US), the kinship I'm guessing you're referring to is really gay-friendly, not gay. And personally (though I'm not a member), I appreciate the opportunity to be free from the hordes of players who refer to anything they don't like as "gay". It's obnoxious. But I agree with you that Turbine's attitude is really a big step forward.
I'd guess that if this game were being developed 20 years from now, gay marriage between PCs might well be allowed and still thought to be in the spirit of what Tolkienn would have approved of. Likewise, if this game had been developed 15 years ago, how accepting would players have been for allowing female characters to be melee fighters?
Yunk, if you're on Landroval (US), the kinship I'm guessing you're referring to is really gay-friendly, not gay. And personally (though I'm not a member), I appreciate the opportunity to be free from the hordes of players who refer to anything they don't like as "gay". It's obnoxious. But I agree with you that Turbine's attitude is really a big step forward.
# posted by : 4/5/07 15:57
: 4/5/07 15:57
Well, you can file this under the sky is blue category, but the more you tell teenagers not to use the word gay as an insult, the more they will do it just to spite you.
# posted by : 4/5/07 16:39
: 4/5/07 16:39
"Finally, no gay hobbits? Did no one read the book? Was no one else thinking "Oh just kiss him!" when they saw the movies?"
There's plenty of that in the movies and the books as well. I won't categorize it as gay or not gay, but Tolkien obviously had strong feelings about male fraternity and what sort of affection is possible or acceptable between men. Plenty of people are threatened by that. I think that fear is unnecessary, but I certainly wouldn't deny it exists.
I watched the first LOTR movie with a friend who couldn't get past the fact that Aragorn kissed Boromir when Boromir passed away. I abused him endlessly about his inability to cope with the subject, but his fear/distaste/whatever is a real feeling that he just can't get over.
I don't think those sort of fears or feelings should prevent other people from sharing them if they so choose, though. Male hobbits marrying other men is only an issue because you *can't* do it. If it was just put in the game and no mention was made of it, the percentage of the population that chose to go that route could be happy, and the rest of us could happily continue playing our own game and leave the other folks in peace.
Seriously, if I don't enjoy PvP, I don't go PvP. If I don't want to marry another man in game, I won't do it. That doesn't mean I have to slander those who like to PvP or those who want man-man marriage. What other people are doing in a game really shouldn't matter so much. The spammers in WoW would annoy me much more than a pair of male gnomes would annoy me by holding hands on the AH bridge.
Oh, wait, this is the internet. I'm probably wrong, I probably should be flaming both groups, shouldn't I? :)
There's plenty of that in the movies and the books as well. I won't categorize it as gay or not gay, but Tolkien obviously had strong feelings about male fraternity and what sort of affection is possible or acceptable between men. Plenty of people are threatened by that. I think that fear is unnecessary, but I certainly wouldn't deny it exists.
I watched the first LOTR movie with a friend who couldn't get past the fact that Aragorn kissed Boromir when Boromir passed away. I abused him endlessly about his inability to cope with the subject, but his fear/distaste/whatever is a real feeling that he just can't get over.
I don't think those sort of fears or feelings should prevent other people from sharing them if they so choose, though. Male hobbits marrying other men is only an issue because you *can't* do it. If it was just put in the game and no mention was made of it, the percentage of the population that chose to go that route could be happy, and the rest of us could happily continue playing our own game and leave the other folks in peace.
Seriously, if I don't enjoy PvP, I don't go PvP. If I don't want to marry another man in game, I won't do it. That doesn't mean I have to slander those who like to PvP or those who want man-man marriage. What other people are doing in a game really shouldn't matter so much. The spammers in WoW would annoy me much more than a pair of male gnomes would annoy me by holding hands on the AH bridge.
Oh, wait, this is the internet. I'm probably wrong, I probably should be flaming both groups, shouldn't I? :)
Tobold, I couldn't agree more with your post. Virtual worlds are meant to be a place where we all can come to get away from the bullshit political fiasco that is RL. I play a game because I want to have fun and the game I am playing shouldn't have to sacrifice one of it's cooler features because gay community is always looking for a reason to complain about something. Whats next? Are hispanics going to complain because their tan WOW human char doesn't tell jokes with an accent?
If you enjoy playing the game, then continue playing it and stick to bitching about the game itself via forums. If you don't enjoy the game or it doesn't suit your fancy, then STFU and find another game.
If you enjoy playing the game, then continue playing it and stick to bitching about the game itself via forums. If you don't enjoy the game or it doesn't suit your fancy, then STFU and find another game.
# posted by : 4/5/07 17:36
: 4/5/07 17:36
Can't wait to see the amount of political flak that Age of Conan is going to receive. They're never going to be able to release an expansion with the Pict race :(
# posted by : 4/5/07 17:44
: 4/5/07 17:44
"I play a game because I want to have fun and the game I am playing shouldn't have to sacrifice one of it's cooler features because gay community is always looking for a reason to complain about something."
Don't confuse our entire community with a vocal minority. I couldn't care less about this... I have more important things to worry about than getting married in a game. Also, the article Tobold linked to says that the developers made this decision before the game even came out. Am I saying that the issue would go by without a hitch if they left marriage in? No - I'm sure someone would complain about it.
But I could pretty much guarantee you that most of us wouldn't.
Also, Blizz never banned GLBT guilds, they just don't allow public advertising of special interest guilds - be they GLBT, Christian, Canadian, or people with 11 toes - in public channels not meant for that purpose. I'd be willing to bet that if you looked at the guild recruitment forums right now, there'd be a post about a GLBT guild on the first page or two. Once again, a vocal minority taking a situation out of context and criticizing a company for doing something they never did.
PS: Yay for Stonewall Rebellion on Windfola!
Don't confuse our entire community with a vocal minority. I couldn't care less about this... I have more important things to worry about than getting married in a game. Also, the article Tobold linked to says that the developers made this decision before the game even came out. Am I saying that the issue would go by without a hitch if they left marriage in? No - I'm sure someone would complain about it.
But I could pretty much guarantee you that most of us wouldn't.
Also, Blizz never banned GLBT guilds, they just don't allow public advertising of special interest guilds - be they GLBT, Christian, Canadian, or people with 11 toes - in public channels not meant for that purpose. I'd be willing to bet that if you looked at the guild recruitment forums right now, there'd be a post about a GLBT guild on the first page or two. Once again, a vocal minority taking a situation out of context and criticizing a company for doing something they never did.
PS: Yay for Stonewall Rebellion on Windfola!
This could also cause a backlash.
Some peeps might resent not being able to marry, and blame gay and lesbians because they can't.
Some peeps might resent not being able to marry, and blame gay and lesbians because they can't.
# posted by : 4/5/07 21:06
: 4/5/07 21:06
Meh. I have to admit that I'm pretty irked about not being able to play a female dwarf, as that has long been my second primary avatar. However, I'll concede that it fits the lore. I'll point out though that if Turbine was entirely true to the lore, there would be NO female adventurers (except one or two cross-dressing humans), and that would probably sink the game.
I think it is just as well that they didn't implement marriage as a game mechanic. Why bother? No other game has had it as a mechanic for good reason -- trying to restrict it will only engender ill will, while not restricting it will give a 'think of the lore!' backlash. I've been 'married' in-game, and have attended my share of in-game marriages. A game mechanic is unnecessary, and would interfere with the players role-playing.
But, I will say that I disagree with you on one thing -- if the mechanic were implemented, they would have to have it without restriction -- it would cause too much ill will and strife to do otherwise. I'm all for sticking to the lore up to a point, but only up to a point. In the end it is still a game, and needs to be fun; and who is to say what would have been in the world were he writing it now?
I think it is just as well that they didn't implement marriage as a game mechanic. Why bother? No other game has had it as a mechanic for good reason -- trying to restrict it will only engender ill will, while not restricting it will give a 'think of the lore!' backlash. I've been 'married' in-game, and have attended my share of in-game marriages. A game mechanic is unnecessary, and would interfere with the players role-playing.
But, I will say that I disagree with you on one thing -- if the mechanic were implemented, they would have to have it without restriction -- it would cause too much ill will and strife to do otherwise. I'm all for sticking to the lore up to a point, but only up to a point. In the end it is still a game, and needs to be fun; and who is to say what would have been in the world were he writing it now?
# posted by : 4/5/07 21:53
: 4/5/07 21:53
Actually a more interesting real world aspect connected to this issue is divorce.
Tolkien was a devout Catholic and pretty strongly against divorce. So if you made an in-game marriage, could you later dissolve it and marry another person? Following the reasoning in the original post says that to stay true to Tolkien, a marriage once made can never be broken.
Heh, I suppose a wag could say that such marriages can be annulled as they were never consumated, but that seems like a cop-out to me.
Personally, I question the wisdom of an built-in tool that would allow a 12-year-old to be married to a 45-year-old, even if the marriage was virtual.
Tolkien was a devout Catholic and pretty strongly against divorce. So if you made an in-game marriage, could you later dissolve it and marry another person? Following the reasoning in the original post says that to stay true to Tolkien, a marriage once made can never be broken.
Heh, I suppose a wag could say that such marriages can be annulled as they were never consumated, but that seems like a cop-out to me.
Personally, I question the wisdom of an built-in tool that would allow a 12-year-old to be married to a 45-year-old, even if the marriage was virtual.
reminds me of a documentary.
i don't know exactly which game it was, i think 2nd life.
it was about a married man that spended tons of money and life to the game. he even got into a "relationship" with a female toon.
he was confronted by that, because he wouldn't recognize he was basically cheating on his rl-wife. and the female of 2nd-life was also upset because of that knowledge.
in the end he acknowledged he was cheating on his wife and ended teh virtual relationship and even the game itself.
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i don't know exactly which game it was, i think 2nd life.
it was about a married man that spended tons of money and life to the game. he even got into a "relationship" with a female toon.
he was confronted by that, because he wouldn't recognize he was basically cheating on his rl-wife. and the female of 2nd-life was also upset because of that knowledge.
in the end he acknowledged he was cheating on his wife and ended teh virtual relationship and even the game itself.
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