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Monday, May 28, 2007
Use of real time in virtual worlds
When I'm logging into World of Warcraft nowadays, it is more often than not to just do a transmute with my alchemist, once a day. Meanwhile most of my alts in Lord of the Rings Online are camping scholar work orders, which they can get every six hours. The common thing is that my progress in these areas is limited by real world time, not by anything I do in the game. Being offline I still advance, and in both WoW and LotRO I also gain rest xp bonus by just waiting. EVE Online even has their complete skill system being based on real team, it takes so and so many days to gain a skill level, whether you are online or not.
The advantage of such systems is that they are the ultimate of fairness. Each of us gets 24 hours per day, no more and no less. And our monthly fees to the game company are also based on real time, so for once everyone gets what he paid for. The only way to get more transmutes would be to make an alt and level him up to the level required for transmutations, but most people would consider that excessive.
The disadvantage of that is a certain disconnect. I didn't really enjoy gaining skills in EVE; gaining skills by doing something is so much more rewarding than gaining skills by waiting. And the transmutes in WoW or the work orders in LotRO are a simple matter of logging on, doing your thing, and logging off again. There is no sense of achievement in that.
I think that games like World of Warcraft or Lord of the Rings Online strike the right balance here: Real time is mostly used for minor tradeskill things, and doesn't have too much of an influence on your main progress in the game. Only the waiting time on rest xp bonus influences your level progress, and that is something which usually ends helping those that need it most. A system like in EVE effectively puts a real world time limitation on your leveling progress, and that is not that good. Would you want to play a game that told you "Sorry, you already leveled once today, come back tomorrow"?
- posted by Tobold @ 8:31 AM Permanent Link
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Would you want to play a game that told you "Sorry, you already leveled once today, come back tomorrow"?
Yeah, actually I'd love a time cap, and on not just crafting, as you're talking about, but on exp and leveling, as well.
It's the only way to slow down power gamers, and I've come to view them as locust. I'm not going to waste time explaining why I view them this way, or how they screw up mmorpgs, beacuse that's been debated a million times.
Suffice to say that I'd pick a time cap server every single time it was offered, and without hesitation, and eventually we'll see a mmo that restricts fast advancement, and if done correctly, it will be a major hit.
Yeah, actually I'd love a time cap, and on not just crafting, as you're talking about, but on exp and leveling, as well.
It's the only way to slow down power gamers, and I've come to view them as locust. I'm not going to waste time explaining why I view them this way, or how they screw up mmorpgs, beacuse that's been debated a million times.
Suffice to say that I'd pick a time cap server every single time it was offered, and without hesitation, and eventually we'll see a mmo that restricts fast advancement, and if done correctly, it will be a major hit.
# posted by 
: 28/5/07 11:07
: 28/5/07 11:07
"Sorry, you already leveled once today, come back tomorrow"?
Do I agree with this, i think so, it could prevent some exploiting (or make the gold farmers life way harder) but I would prefer something a bit less artificial (really don't know what...).
On the automatic skill advancement I believe that it would be a very welcome change in WoW or any other game where the /level command is being considered. My idea is that when you reach the level cap with one char, the others start slowly leveling up. Way slower than if you played with them, to encourage people to play the lowbie levels, but not forcing the ones that want to try a new class and are just tiered of playing the same areas over and over again. This approach has some problems like playing a class for the first time at 70 but a compromise can be reached.
Morgad the shadow priest on Azjol-Nerub(EU)
Do I agree with this, i think so, it could prevent some exploiting (or make the gold farmers life way harder) but I would prefer something a bit less artificial (really don't know what...).
On the automatic skill advancement I believe that it would be a very welcome change in WoW or any other game where the /level command is being considered. My idea is that when you reach the level cap with one char, the others start slowly leveling up. Way slower than if you played with them, to encourage people to play the lowbie levels, but not forcing the ones that want to try a new class and are just tiered of playing the same areas over and over again. This approach has some problems like playing a class for the first time at 70 but a compromise can be reached.
Morgad the shadow priest on Azjol-Nerub(EU)
# posted by : 28/5/07 11:30
: 28/5/07 11:30
Intriguing point. LOTRo class deeds also have a feature that limits how much you can level per real time. In that case it's a break for power progressing, something that will limit the maximum speed but possibly never felt by slower paced folks.
It's kind of the inverse idea to rested bonus.
I do like the idea to somewhat equalize progression with available time, more aspects of the game could use this like rep grind in WoW would need "rested bonus" to be fairer for casuals.
But the "1 transmute a day" is really an economy break more than a progression break.
Overall I actually think that too many too obviously real life paced things in game is mostly a sign of lack of content that would pace people automatically.
Crafting systems are just too one-shot an idea. A transmute is buying/maining ingrediences and hitting a button. Nothing in that mechanism is any real ingame effort. I think the real crux may be this...
It's kind of the inverse idea to rested bonus.
I do like the idea to somewhat equalize progression with available time, more aspects of the game could use this like rep grind in WoW would need "rested bonus" to be fairer for casuals.
But the "1 transmute a day" is really an economy break more than a progression break.
Overall I actually think that too many too obviously real life paced things in game is mostly a sign of lack of content that would pace people automatically.
Crafting systems are just too one-shot an idea. A transmute is buying/maining ingrediences and hitting a button. Nothing in that mechanism is any real ingame effort. I think the real crux may be this...
# posted by : 28/5/07 12:02
: 28/5/07 12:02
I'm a veteran EVE player so I'll comment.
Cash is much more important that skillpoints in EVE, because there is a diminishing marginal bonus for skillpoints past 10 million. With enough cash to afford marquee equipment, someone playing seven months can defeat someone playing four years if they know what they're doing. Since you don't "level" in EVE, there is much less noticeable difference between folks. There is also no cap to progress, so if it was based on the quest/grind model, you would have those who have access to capital ships after just a few months of playing.
Skillpoints come with time granted, but cash comes with the grind, and in EVE you need cash far more than you need skillpoints to be an effective fighter.
Cash is much more important that skillpoints in EVE, because there is a diminishing marginal bonus for skillpoints past 10 million. With enough cash to afford marquee equipment, someone playing seven months can defeat someone playing four years if they know what they're doing. Since you don't "level" in EVE, there is much less noticeable difference between folks. There is also no cap to progress, so if it was based on the quest/grind model, you would have those who have access to capital ships after just a few months of playing.
Skillpoints come with time granted, but cash comes with the grind, and in EVE you need cash far more than you need skillpoints to be an effective fighter.
# posted by : 28/5/07 13:36
: 28/5/07 13:36
Interesting idea. Still total stoping any progression is not gonna work imo.
Hard to say what limit need to be. As ppl play different. Some can play partucular day(s) in a week, some can play a bit each day and some play a lots...
In AC2 Craft v2 Turbine added interesting idea of slowing down progress : each day you start fresh and after getting certain XP ( based on your lvl ) you drop down learning to only 50% of original XP, then if you continue you can drop it to 25% and so on. Still it was for crafting only and if you got this penalty for 1 area you can switch to other area and progress it.
So maybe idea is to add this penalty here. Each day you have rested bonus if you were not on. But if you play too much then your XP earning drop to 50% of original XP.
Hard to say what limit need to be. As ppl play different. Some can play partucular day(s) in a week, some can play a bit each day and some play a lots...
In AC2 Craft v2 Turbine added interesting idea of slowing down progress : each day you start fresh and after getting certain XP ( based on your lvl ) you drop down learning to only 50% of original XP, then if you continue you can drop it to 25% and so on. Still it was for crafting only and if you got this penalty for 1 area you can switch to other area and progress it.
So maybe idea is to add this penalty here. Each day you have rested bonus if you were not on. But if you play too much then your XP earning drop to 50% of original XP.
# posted by : 28/5/07 14:16
: 28/5/07 14:16
That would screw people who mostly play on the weekend.
A simple 20 hour weekly cap would suffice.
Or, better yet, offer different servers with different types of time caps.
A simple 20 hour weekly cap would suffice.
Or, better yet, offer different servers with different types of time caps.
# posted by : 28/5/07 14:42
: 28/5/07 14:42
Isn't that more or less what Kingdom of Loathing does?
Each day you get X Adventures, and every time you do something like fight a monster it uses up one Adventure. (You can also gain more adventures by eating or drinking, although the amount you can gain from one source is also capped.) Thanks to this system, progress is limited to how many Adventures you have.
If you know the game very, very well you may be able to overcome the Adventure limit and make an abnormal amount of progress in one day, but most of the time it effectively restricts people from progressing too far too quickly.
The problem with people who only play a couple times a week is also avoided since Adventures build up over time (capping at a couple hundred). If you only play one day a week you can get x7 more done than people who play every day.
Obviously a system like this couldn't be simply thrown into a WoW-style MMO, but it's still a good example of how progress could be limited by real time.
Each day you get X Adventures, and every time you do something like fight a monster it uses up one Adventure. (You can also gain more adventures by eating or drinking, although the amount you can gain from one source is also capped.) Thanks to this system, progress is limited to how many Adventures you have.
If you know the game very, very well you may be able to overcome the Adventure limit and make an abnormal amount of progress in one day, but most of the time it effectively restricts people from progressing too far too quickly.
The problem with people who only play a couple times a week is also avoided since Adventures build up over time (capping at a couple hundred). If you only play one day a week you can get x7 more done than people who play every day.
Obviously a system like this couldn't be simply thrown into a WoW-style MMO, but it's still a good example of how progress could be limited by real time.
I know you're not a native English speaker, so please don't take this as being nasty or anything, but the past tense of "pay" is "paid". It's one of the legion of irregular verbs that English has.
I'm waiting for an MMO to come along that tries to charge more to people who are online for extended periods of time. Not many (or any that I know of) do it so there must be some economic reason for it. So like a heavy duty powergamer would be paying approximately double what the casual gamers are paying. You could have your cost structure similar to what cell-phones have now.
People that spend more time playing should be rewarded for it in-game via character progression but they should also have to pay more real cash as they are taking up more game resources (ie. bandwidth, constant need for more content, service calls ... etc).
Just a random thought...
People that spend more time playing should be rewarded for it in-game via character progression but they should also have to pay more real cash as they are taking up more game resources (ie. bandwidth, constant need for more content, service calls ... etc).
Just a random thought...
Would you want to play a game that told you "Sorry, you already leveled once today, come back tomorrow"?
I have - Way back in the days, Ultima Online was like that. So much controversy went on, many other systems were created (Powerhour was a joke - should have been called Macrohour, which is exactly like what you are doing in WoW (Not macroing, but logging on just to do your thing, and logging out)). Looking back, it wasn't so bad because in my case, I could "do my thing" and then attend player created RP type events which didn't involve leveling. I guess that's one thing I miss about UO compared to most games today, all the creative outlets it provided for RP events, but I guess that's not on topic.
I have - Way back in the days, Ultima Online was like that. So much controversy went on, many other systems were created (Powerhour was a joke - should have been called Macrohour, which is exactly like what you are doing in WoW (Not macroing, but logging on just to do your thing, and logging out)). Looking back, it wasn't so bad because in my case, I could "do my thing" and then attend player created RP type events which didn't involve leveling. I guess that's one thing I miss about UO compared to most games today, all the creative outlets it provided for RP events, but I guess that's not on topic.
# posted by : 29/5/07 01:48
: 29/5/07 01:48
Isn't that more or less what Kingdom of Loathing does?
Its what it aims to achieve certainly. What with stasis it doesn't quite work at the moment, but hopefully with NS13 it'll go back to real-life time not mattering as much.
I think KoL does a lot of things right that other MMOs don't do as well, although thats probably due to its smaller size, a couple of thousand concurrents, and the fact that the devs are an active part of the community.
Doesn't stop people complaining about nerfs all the time though =/
Its what it aims to achieve certainly. What with stasis it doesn't quite work at the moment, but hopefully with NS13 it'll go back to real-life time not mattering as much.
I think KoL does a lot of things right that other MMOs don't do as well, although thats probably due to its smaller size, a couple of thousand concurrents, and the fact that the devs are an active part of the community.
Doesn't stop people complaining about nerfs all the time though =/
Would you want to play a game that told you "Sorry, you already leveled once today, come back tomorrow"?
Isn't this effectively what WoW does for reputation grind with new factions in the 2.1 patch? It's based on daily quest limits, but the effect is the same.
That approach was very hotly debated on WoW's forums when it was first announced, with developers defending it as a way to provide more approachable reputation-based rewards for casual players and less casual players taking umbrage at the concept of time-based play restrictions.
At any rate, it's not just for crafting anymore.
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Isn't this effectively what WoW does for reputation grind with new factions in the 2.1 patch? It's based on daily quest limits, but the effect is the same.
That approach was very hotly debated on WoW's forums when it was first announced, with developers defending it as a way to provide more approachable reputation-based rewards for casual players and less casual players taking umbrage at the concept of time-based play restrictions.
At any rate, it's not just for crafting anymore.
# posted by : 4/6/07 11:14
: 4/6/07 11:14<< Home
