What about having the sets split up among the raid dungeons? This boss in this area will have this piece, but the next piece can only be attained from another dungeon? Of course then, this would require there to be enough raid dungeons to split the rewards into.

Maybe then, instead of development focusing on huge 3-6 hour crawls, they could make raids 2 hours or less, make smaller dungeons, and have more of them.

More variety, more rewards, less time to do one... everyone wins, except of course non-raiders. :)

But just give us small group dungeons and solo-small group content that shares similar rewards and we'll be fine, honest.
 

Nice idea, but i seriously doubt, that this system will be able to hold people for a long time.

The biggest incentive to keep playing the game, is that you can still advance your Character. The best thing about the 1-70 leveling part of the game is, that you become stronger every level and get new abilities, can wear more powerful items,...

If you take away the character advancement, i fear the game will loose subscribers faster. Only giving out titles and cosmetics will not be enough.

I may be wrong, but i doubt lots of people would stick with it.
 

In all honesty, I think the attunement requirements were in tbc for one reason only. To artificially lengthen the amount of time a player had to spend within the game.

You didn't have to do an attunement because it made sense, or the instance was blocked by some spell or there was a puzzle presented that you must solve to get in the door. There were attunements because blizzard knew that the content provided by tbc wasn't nearly enough and they needed to make sure players spend as much time as possible getting to/through what is there. Nothing more. Pretty sad imo.
 

My first impression is to agree with Savrukk. There is a fine line between armor dyes and vanity pets, and descending into a "dress up dolls MMO". The bottom line for a heroic adventurer is conquest and advancement, creating legendary tales as he or she progresses.

One complaint I commonly read is that the gear rewards for raiding are too little reward for the work. Tobold correctly points out that linear rewards with minimal actual real improvement is a reason for attunement; this is IMO an excellent design decision to keep gear somewhat in balance between "casuals", PvP-ers, and raiders. Unfortunately, "old school" raiders are having quite a bit of trouble transitioning from the old gear-driven progression model to an attunement-driven progression model. In my in-game experience, though, it is not hard to do what Blizzard is asking now (for example, our non-traditional guildies, the women aged 30-60, are attuned for Karazhan and will be running it in the coming weeks). It's just an adjustment.

And commenting on another recent/related topic, I would not expect to "catch up" to guildies who are weeks ahead of me raiding any more than I would expect my alts to "catch up" to guildies who had a 10-level head start. For WoW is linear time-wise, too, and there is currently no way to "/level" other than to put in the time.
 

...and yet I still felt a sense of acheivement when I finally got my key to Karazhan.
Only if you are really desperate to get attuned for something (eg raid guild demands your attunement in 2 weeks or else you get booted) does quest-chain attunement become a real issue.
Remember the old Dungeon Set 2 quest chain? Pre-BC this was incredibly difficult to do. I bet the % of people who actually completed it all the way through was not even 1%. Yet this was not seen as a game-breaker. The Set was supposedly meant for people who didn't want to go raiding, but Baron 45 (for example) was extremely difficult to do without raid-gear equipped party members.
Is Wow over because you can't get attuned quickly enough?

My approach to attunement is to do it slowly, doing one part of the chain as and when possible.
As for your Spiderman analogy, wouldn't you have preferred to have seen 1 and 2 before seeing 3?

I think Blizzard did listen to people regarding non-raid instances. A lot of the BC dungeons can be completed in a very short time. No more crawling round Strat for hours only to find the Baron doesn't drop your item for the 20th time.
 

I read a review of Diablo 2 a while back. The author came to the realization that it was a shopping game disguised as something else. WoW is similar. Instead of pushing a cart and taking items from an isle, you're riding a mount and beating items out of a mob. Why settle for the generic cola when you can buy [Insert Name Brand Here] and get a stat boost to taste? Yes, getting the [Uber Battleaxe of Smushing] is more impressive than the [Color-coordinated Pattern of Fabulousness], but why delude ourselves? :) It's not skill, it's consumerism with swords.

I don't think adding more "soft" loot (badges, cosmetic gear modifiers, furniture for housing) will change the dynamics too much. In fact, given the PvP verses PvE balance issues and the gear stat changes with the release of an expansion, it might be a good thing to offer less gear and more non-stat related rewards.

As they say, the devil is in the details and how Blizz (or whatever) implemented such a system would greatly effect how well or poorly it went over with the player base.
 

so you are basically suggesting, SWG only properly executed.
 

To go off on a tangent about character development. When I had a period of extra time, just before WoW came out I was bored and tried to find something to do. I got Diablo II even though at that point it was an old game. I entered battle.net and was amazed to find that it was sprawling with people, I was even more amazed to see that there was a lively item trading market, and even real money item sellers all around. Diablo II was 4 years old and people were still collecting ever harder to get loot (runes for rune words at that point). In terms of content nothing had changed since the Lord of Destruction extension of 2001, so that's 3 years without any(!) content change.

I'm sure this taught blizzard a lesson about motivation through loot acquisition. I know very early on blizz talked about the longevity of an online game being 10 years. They talked from projected Diablo experience I'm guessing.

But to come back from the tangent, I think ultimately, the gathering paradigm is bound to fail, because people will realize, that you indeed just do the same thing over and over again for some in the end pointless gain (basically the realisation that made me drop Diablo II one day to the next).

People try to theorize playing preferences and motivation, and the bartle test is one of the profile ideas (not without criticism I might add).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_Test

The model that you describe matches the bartle type:

Explorer and Sozializer

I probably also fall into that category. Seeing new content is what I care about, not collecting loot. And playing with people.

But WoW also caters to other player types:

Achievers

these are the item/loot/point collectors. No new loot, no status is disasterous here. If someone stays at their status without effort they are unhappy, because "you didn't work for it"

Killers

these like PvP and PK.

One problem is that lots of MMO designs are focused around achieving and some around killing preferences. And few have strong preference for explorers or sozializers. If one game can really faithfully match them all is a good question.

I for one would love to play the game idea that you describe, non-linear, democratized access that is social friendly and entices explorers, but I'm sure we'll get the commenters who are the achiever/killer types who will think that kills the game.

P.S. I just saw Khan also brought up Diablo II... definitely relevant to understand where BLizz idea for WoW mechanics come from (e.g. jewelcrafting/socketing is a Diablo concept, as is inherent merger of PVE and PVP)
 

I tend to agree with Savrukk. WoW is such a powerful draw because of the Skinner's Pigeon principle - we peck it, we get a treat. Repeat.

We like to see our numbers going up. And the fact that what we gain has a direct effect on how powerful we are in the game drives us to keep playing.

Actually, I think that the attunements are intended to work the same way. You need to give players rewards for completing tasks - and one of those rewards can be access to another area that you couldn't see before. Goodness knows I've been looking forward to seeing Molten Core for the first time for years, and when I finally got the opportunity last week, it was a big deal. If I'd just been able to go there from the outset, it wouldn't have been so cool. And honestly, that achievement tempts me to try to find a way to get into BWL, or Naxx, or the other areas I've never seen.

To use Bartle's system of MMO players, it's a way of turning Explorers into Achievers.

(Yes, I'm a bit WoW-backward - I know everyone else has been there, done that, and got the [Incendiary T-Shirt of the Crusader]. I never raided, and somehow never got around to visiting MC.)
 

Interesting comments, abel. I loved Diablo 2 also but never did the battle.net thing.

I suspect that even if gear got capped and many of the end-game items were cosmetic or just collectables, the PK / PVP crowd wouldn't complain too much. You could still create a decent character / gear set and PvP.

The itemizer / achiever types would be a harder sell. I was thinking: what if available items capped with a single tier set in a group of relatively low-level instances. It would be in reach of raiders and casuals. However, you also create raid dungeons. On completing one of those dungeons, you get a special badge. Or a badge per boss. Only people that have killed, say, Onyxia would be able to display a "Dragon Slayer" badge. You could also affix a rank / count with the info. Someone killing Ony ten times is an "Expert Dragon Slayer." At 20 times, you're a "Heroic Dragon Slayer."

I'm not sure if the achievement types would go for such a system or not.
 

I've thought about TBC raiding earlier, but I'll add a few things.
I read the comments on the this thread and see many ideas that are in the game, just poorly executed. For example, splitting set pieces between dungeons and having alternative dungeons available. Let's look at tier 4:

Gloves: Curator (Karazhan)
Helm: Prince Malchezaar (Karazhan)
Shoulders: Maulgar (Gruul's Lair)
Pants: Gruul (Gruul's Lair)
Chest: Magtheridon (Magtheridon's Lair)

It's the same with T5 (split between Serpentshrine and the Eye) and T6 (split between Black Temple and Mount Hyjal). So what's the problem? Karazhan, Gruul's Lair and Magtheridon are not comparable in difficulty. They are not alternatives.

One of the few things Vanilla WoW had right was the overlapping of dungeons and freedom of choice, especially at the first tiers. Ruins of Ahn'Qiraj, Zul'Gurub and Molten Core were true alternatives to each other in generic gear level . Molten Core required more people, but Zul'Gurub and Ruins of Ahn'Qiraj had interesting encounters. If you geared up in any of them you could take down Razorgore or Prophet Skeram and proceed. At least until you met Vaelastraz and Princess Huhuran..

Oh, and I'm also a Diablo 2 veteran. ;-)
 

Can you pay the cinematograhper a small amount of money to only show you the most interesting minutes of Spiderman 3 without the boring padding around? No, same as in endgame progression. The product you pay for stands on is own, same as BC. Inside the product you are forced to a paced progression, just as you are forced to watch the boring parts of Spiderman 3. Are you forced to play endgame WoW 1.0 to participate in endgame WoW 2.0? No, same is with the Spiderman movies.

You just can not built a non-linear endgame and pray for people to accept it. Players are way too smart and picky. They'll always will choose the least effort with the biggest rewards. You will built content, that no one will use. You have enforce progression of any kind, let it be with gear checks or keyed zones.

You need item progression. If a player can not get a sharper sword in the new castle, he will not go into it, red dresses or mounts will not lure people into new content, that takes a lot of his time. A new overpowered loot, that let's him kill things faster does.

I just want to add a little more illustration of how badly shaped WoWs PvE endgame is right now. Arena season 2 will start soon, with players getting rewards that rival their PvE counterparts from the last tier of this expansion. Think ahead 6 months from now. Arena season 3, new rewards that top the best PvE loot, PvE loot that by this time will be available to a ridiculously small amount of players. If you think Onyxia or Ragnaros were killed by few players, BC endgame has an even way smaller userbase. The hardcores may had AQ and Naxxramas in WoW 1.0 only for them, in WoW 2.0 they will probably have Tempest Keep, Black Temple and Mount Hiyal as almost exlusive content.

This endgame needs so much accessibility fixing right now, it is not even funny anymore. When season 3 launches, they kinda have to push out a new expansion too. When expansion II. launches you'll have more than 50% of the endgame never been touched by the majority of your players. This is EQ all over again, only that old content in EQ never was rendered useless by new expansion, like it is in WoW.
 

I realize that too many players, probably from the Diablo II fanbase, entered WOW. Once they hook up to the item achievement ladder, they don't want to let go. Many people even DESIRE to have the final piece of an armor set, as it shows, they have conquered the game. Look at all the people who need to show off with their Netherdrake in Shattrah now.

What I truly miss and am happy to find within LOTRO is a story. Onyxia, MC, BWL and also AQ had a great length of storyline evolving over a long period of time.

Why not make the raid instances story driven instead of item driven? An ever-evolving story with the story progression rewards in a non-itemized version?
 

Maybe someone is listening?!

After a lot of thought and deliberation, we’ve decided to remove the attunement requirements to enter Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep: The Eye. While many of our attunements in the Burning Crusade have been good progression checks, a few of the attunements have turned out to cause unnecessary stress on guilds either doing the content or attempting to do the content. With Black Temple and Battle for Mount Hyjal thriving, we want to encourage (rather than prevent) new guilds and raid groups to attempt Serpentshrine and TK. We are going to leave the current attunement quests in the game so that players can still engage in the challenge and the lore of those quests should they choose to. At a later point, we are considering adding a final reward step to those quests as well (that way those who have already completed them would not miss out on a *new* reward).

We’re listening to feedback from you guys constantly and your opinions are important to us. We want this game to be the best possible MMO experience for our players.

Enjoy Serpentshrine and Tempest Keep =)

(Please note: This change will go live later today -- it's not yet active)

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=110637185&sid=1
 

Sweet. Now, Tobold, tell them to give me an epic mount or you're never coming back. :)
 

The best thing about the 1-70 leveling part of the game is, that you become stronger every level and get new abilities, can wear more powerful items,...

For some people, sure... for me, the best thing about levels 1 through 70 was constantly going new places and doing new stuff. The reason I hate the raid game is that it consists entirely of going to the same place doing the same thing over and over.
 

I didn't think the analogy of Spiderman was right to start with... but have given it some thought.

I want to see spiderman 3 but have not seen the first 2.

I want to raid in tBC but have not completed attunement.

Now I pay the same subs as everyone else but don't have the time to get attuned due to real life requirements.

I want to get together with 10-20 guild mates on a Saturday night (as I would with a couple of mates to see a film) and raid. We dont want to plan it for 3 months, spend day after day getting access to it, do the same old thing all the time... just to do something new and have some fun.

Some folks can justify spending all the time they do getting attuned... I can't.

So I turn up at the cinema... and ask for tickets to Spiderman 3. I'm asked have you seen the first 2. I reply no and am denied access. So I ask what are you showing as an alternative? I'm given 3 or 4 other options to choose from. I'm reasonably happy, wanted to see Spiderman 3, but saw another film that entertained me.

So the problem is this... can't attune or wont attune due to all sorts of reasons such as casual play or life restrictions... and left with no alternatives.

I'm level 70... turn up at Kara and try to gain entry... are you attuned? No I'm not. Ok... so how bout you go do this other 15 or 20 man instance instead. It requires no attunement, fits in with the game plot, not as hard as Kara, is fun and to boot has a few cool drops and rewards.

I find it amazing that Bliz didn't add a 20 man content dungeon that required no attunement. Something that you can rock upto without planning it for months. Think cans of worms that would have kept shut.

Bliz had a warning with their real sub figures it seems. I cant see any other reason for dropping the afore mentioned attunement.

A good and right thing to do, perhaps a little too late.

Now perhaps I can get a few guildies together and have some fun, together, without having to employ a P.A. to get me there.
 

gg - Gruul's lair is a 25 man instance and doesn't require attunement...
 

@gg - if you can find enough guildies to go to a 20 man raid, I really don't understand how you aren't able to get attuned for Karazhan - it's hardly the most difficult quest chain.
 

It's interesting you mention the non-linear aspect of the story. I think that I tend to agree - the compelling experience of MMOs (for me) is playing with my friends, and it doesn't much matter what we're doing as long as we're having fun together. Something like WoW, or other traditional MMOs, doesn't lend itself to that because all my friends and I have different play times and schedules. It's just hard to stay in sync, so doesn't work out.

What you've described is not really going to lend itself to what people traditionally think of as MMOs. You've essentially described any number of co-operative games that don't share this genre. I give you: Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter.

What, you don't agree? Let's see how this works.
1. I can play any map, at any time, with my friends.
2. I'm not gear dependant - only skill dependant - to play these maps.
3. The maps get harder, but the equipment's the same; it requires my friends and I to l2p but we don't need to invest a billion hours to get Tier 1.
4. It's highly co-operative.
5. It can be done at any time with a minimal of organisation.
6. It can be done with two+ players; the game balances against this with the number of enemies.
7. Achievements are rewarded on success, so you can see how someone's progressing. It gives no advantage in terms of kit, but you do say, "Zang, that dude's beaten this mission."

The problem is that most people (and rightly so) won't ascribe GRAW/GRAW2 as an MMO, because it's not. There's not a lot of roleplaying going on here, and the setting is not terribly fantastic. it's still a huge bowl of fun though.

Now, the trick is to bring this style of gameplay into the fantasy or scifi genre that people are very interested in. A lot of people like the push-the-button-get-a-peanut style of gaming that's prevalent in the MMO world. I think there's some interesting ways of solving this whilst still keeping "true" to what people want.

* Your character gets equipment appropriate to the level of the dungeon.
* If your skill / equipment level is innapropriate, the game boosts you up in some way to "equalise" you. "Here's a free gun that will do more damage than that pop-gun you've got."

To be honest, if someone released a "shooter" that had a fantasy theme with "raid dungeons" and "co-operative play" I'd be all over it. Some interesting games might come along that follow this model in the future, things like Huxley may attempt to get there. But I know that the replayability of, say, Unreal Tournament is extremely high because of the challenge (skill based) and co-operation required; I don't see why that (which provides no items or levels) model wouldn't also work in a different genre or setting if implemented right.

Perhaps the biggest problem is that game companies don't want this as it's not as addictive as the current button-for-peanut mechanism. You want to keep playing WoW or whatever to get that next thing because you're "not done yet." With UT you can put it down anytime and stop playing your sub, as there's no progression to tie in an addictive part of your psyche.
 

In reply...

Gruul's Lair is hardly what I wish to see. A 2 boss instance isnt going to hold our attention for that long.

A ZG like T has just mentioned, and pre kara in level would be good fun and satisfy.

As to finding a good guild. Thats the problem. The expansion killed my guild... then the next one too. Now I cant be asked with it. I cant be asked racing to meet people in front of me, and then dragging people behind me. I don't have the time either I get perhaps 4 hours as my longest stint every other weekend, and an hour two each weekday morning. Getting attuned like that is a pointless waste of time when I simply want to play instead of LFG for 2 hours at 9am each weekday.

It isn't the ability to get attuned it is the fragmented time that I and many other players have.
 

What I'm saying is that no matter how good the guild is, if the end-game still has some sort of "character advancement", and people play different amount of hours, they will automatically fall apart, because they develop at different speeds and to different levels. Then either the less advanced fall behind, or the more advanced have to redo the same old stuff to drag the less advanced people through.

My guild is very good, but has 190 players. Do you know how long it would take to get them all through Karazhan several times to get them prepared for the next step, attunement or not?
 

What a lot of the posters here keep forgetting is just before launch there were multiple things to do across the board. Multiple battlegrounds, multiple puggable raid instances, people were still doing the old 5 mans.

BC invalidated all of that and set the expectation that if you don't rush to the end of BC you'll get shafted out of the fun when the next expansion comes out. Thus a large portion of the player base was (unintentionally I hope) trained to Rush to end game. Thus the burn out. Less options more stress = unfun game.