Monday, September 03, 2007
Buying virtual cards with 3-dollar bills
*Long Rant Warning* I've been exploring Legends of Norrath some more, but came away a bit disappointed. But that might be less about the game than about the players. Or maybe the deja vu experience with flashbacks from Magic the Gathering Online just overwhelmed me. LoN isn't even fully live yet, and the trading room already stinks as much of greed and people trying to exploit their fellow players as in MtGO. What is it in trading card games that brings out the worst in people?
I started Legends of Norrath with the one starter deck and two boosters I got for free. The starter was a fighter deck, which meant I could play with that deck, or build a very similar deck, by swapping the few cards from the two boosters that were useable in and out. The cards for mages, priests, and scouts from the boosters were useless to me, not having enough of them to make a deck. So I ended up spending $60 on LoN, buying the other three starter decks and 10 boosters. Now I have a total of 400 cards with enough variety to build different decks for all character classes. When the game goes live, I'll see how hard it is to get cards as drop in EQ2, but I don't plan to invest any more money.
Now LoN, like all other trading card games, has rares, uncommons, and common cards. You can only put 4 cards of the same name in a deck, so if you have more than 4 from anything, you simply don't need them. I had a couple of commons too much, but didn't have every common in the game 4 times. So theoretically now the "trading" part of the trading card game moniker kicks in, where I look for other people in a similar situation and trade my excess commons for their excess commons. As excess commons are basically worthless, this is an ideal win-win situation, as you trade a card that is of no use to you against a card that could still help you build a better deck. In praxis unfortunately that doesn't happen. I hung out an hour in the trading post, traded only one card, and came away with a bad taste in my mouth.
Legends of Norrath has two trading systems: One for automated trades, and one manual. In the automated trade you can post that you would like to trade away card X for card Y, log off, and come back later and hope somebody accepted your trade. This isn't ideal for my situation, because I have several cards to trade away, and am not looking for a specific card Y, but would take any common I don't have 4 of. But I looked through the offered trades, also using the helpful "show all trades where you actually have the cards the other guy wants" function. Most trades were rare card against rare card. Even worse, several trades wanted my rares and offered me a handful of worthless commons in trade, far, far away from the fair value. Scams, basically. The second trade system works by you hanging out in the trading post lobby, occasionally spamming a message about what you want to trade, and reading the messages of other people. Once you thus found somebody to trade with, you click on his name in a list and open a trade window. The trade window is badly done, you need to set a filter to even just see only the cards the other guy has for trade, and then it isn't easy to check how many copies of that card you are looking for. I did one trade like that, but it took some time for both of us to figure it out.
But the reason I could only get one trade done was that nobody was interested in commons or uncommons. Trades were mostly about rares. And actually most trades weren't "trades" in a literal sense, but "buys". Because in LoN, just like in MtGO, you can trade unopened boosters. An unopened booster being worth $3, that turns them into virtual 3-dollar bills. And many, many of the messages in the trading post were about buying or selling the most valuable rares or loot cards for X of these 3-dollar bills. Already foreseen, but not yet implemented, is the introduction of $1 event tickets, which after their release will quickly become the new currency. The trading post is dominated by professional traders, who always try to buy cards cheap from people not sure what their cards are worth, and then turning them around and selling them on for more. To cash in they finally sell the unopened boosters on EBay for slightly under $3. I saw one guy advertising 150 rares for sale, which with only one rare per booster and $3 cost per booster is already a bunch of money. But I assume he didn't buy 150 boosters, but traded up to get those 150 rares, and he'll sell them on for much more than 150 boosters. There doesn't appear to be any room for people who just want to trade cards for cards, without ripping anyone off.
I wonder what kind of tournaments Legends of Norrath is going to offer. The nail in the coffin for me in Magic the Gathering Online was draft tournaments. In a draft you pay 2 event tickets and 3 boosters for participation in a quick 8-player tournament, where the top players receive boosters being worth more than their cost. Thus if you win repeatedly, you make a profit. But the total amount of prizes is worth less than the 8 times (2 tickets plus 3 boosters), so the game company always takes a cut. I never understood how MtGO got away with that. Yes, you're not betting cash or receiving a cash prize. But as tickets and boosters are easily convertible into dollars, you basically pay $8 to participate, in the hope of getting more than $8 of worth in prizes. Which for me is pretty much the definition of online gambling, which happens to be illegal in the US and many other parts of the world. Of course you also keep the cards. So if you are a bad player, you still have a chance of getting more than $8 worth out of your bet, by doing rare-drafting, selecting not the best cards for playing, but the most valuable cards for your collection. Of course that only works really well if you are the only one of the 8 players doing that, with the other 7 prefering powerful commons to hard-to-use valuable rares. And by doing so you distort the draft, passing the powerful commons to your immediate neighbors, who end up with a better than normal deck and a solid advantage in the tournament. I'm not proud to say that I did that sometimes in MtGO, out of spite, hating the "sharks", the professional Magic players emptying the pockets of the average players online just like the poker sharks back in the days of the Wild West. I can just hope that Legends of Norrath won't have that sort of tournament, the game system doesn't seem to be well suited to drafting.
Some bloggers reported that Legends of Norrath was a trading card game without trading. They misunderstood the fact that only the cards dropping in EQ1 and EQ2 would be untradeable in the Everquest games, to prevent people selling them for lots of platinum, driving up the business of gold farmers. But right now I wonder if a collectible card game without trading wouldn't have been the better idea. Real barter trade doesn't happen, people just invent a currency and start buying and selling, aiming for profits instead of fun. The RMT the devs didn't want in Everquest is already dominant in LoN. *End of Rant*
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LoN isn't even fully live yet, and the trading room already stinks as much of greed and people trying to exploit their fellow players as in MtGO. What is it in trading card games that brings out the worst in people?
Hi! Change 'trading card games' in that last sentence for pretty much any other competitive human activity, particularly one involving money and even more so where there is some anonymity, and you've still got a valid argument. Why do you get beggars in WoW, or cheaters in any number of games? If someone thinks they can get away with an exploit, they will try it. If that exploit is successful and goes unpunished, it is likely to be repeated. And if others are exposed to it, it will be copied.
I'm surprised that you are surprised by what's happening, particularly when you note that exactly the same situation occurred in a similar game.
you basically pay $8 to participate, in the hope of getting more than $8 of worth in prizes. Which for me is pretty much the definition of online gambling
Tish and pish. That's like saying the Open Golf Tournament is like gambling in a casino. There is far more to a CCG tournament than turning up and waiting for a result, and you know it. It's not even like poker, as you are trying to remove as much randomness as possible in the game, not just weighing up the current level of randomness. You wrote about this recently, which I didn't reply to only because the reply would have been 'I agree' in its entirety.
Hi! Change 'trading card games' in that last sentence for pretty much any other competitive human activity, particularly one involving money and even more so where there is some anonymity, and you've still got a valid argument. Why do you get beggars in WoW, or cheaters in any number of games? If someone thinks they can get away with an exploit, they will try it. If that exploit is successful and goes unpunished, it is likely to be repeated. And if others are exposed to it, it will be copied.
I'm surprised that you are surprised by what's happening, particularly when you note that exactly the same situation occurred in a similar game.
you basically pay $8 to participate, in the hope of getting more than $8 of worth in prizes. Which for me is pretty much the definition of online gambling
Tish and pish. That's like saying the Open Golf Tournament is like gambling in a casino. There is far more to a CCG tournament than turning up and waiting for a result, and you know it. It's not even like poker, as you are trying to remove as much randomness as possible in the game, not just weighing up the current level of randomness. You wrote about this recently, which I didn't reply to only because the reply would have been 'I agree' in its entirety.
Removing randomness only works in constructed deck tournaments. Draft games, in which you can choose only one card at a time from a booster before handing the remaining cards to your neighbor, and receiving the cards from your other neighbor, is a lot more random. You don't know in advance what type of deck you will end up with.
I would say drafting is very much comparable to online poker, with a mix of randomness and skill. That's why I used the term online gambling and not online sports betting.
I would say drafting is very much comparable to online poker, with a mix of randomness and skill. That's why I used the term online gambling and not online sports betting.
I played MTGO for a while and what you are describing with LoN brings back many memories.
A big part about trading cards which you didn't mention is the hobby aspect (or collecting). As well as playing, people like to try to get a complete set of cards. If you want to try and get a complete set without winding up with 20 copies of each common card (ie. thru just buying boosters) then you need to trade (or buy) to get the rares because the rares are the hardest to get. The Holy Grail for many card traders is finding someone willing to give up a rare for a bunch of commons/uncommons.
After many futile attempts in MTGO, I gave up on the trading rooms as it was just too hard to find someone that actually wanted a fair trade. The rip-off artists were actually very few, it was mostly people that were deathly afraid of being ripped off so they would only agree to a trade unless it was obvious that the trade was in their favor.
The best way of trading that I found was to wait until you run into someone during a match that you developed a repor with. Then suggest a trade and hopefully both traders will trust each other a little more. Or you can just wait a while until the game is flooded commons and nice people just give them for free to you ...
A big part about trading cards which you didn't mention is the hobby aspect (or collecting). As well as playing, people like to try to get a complete set of cards. If you want to try and get a complete set without winding up with 20 copies of each common card (ie. thru just buying boosters) then you need to trade (or buy) to get the rares because the rares are the hardest to get. The Holy Grail for many card traders is finding someone willing to give up a rare for a bunch of commons/uncommons.
After many futile attempts in MTGO, I gave up on the trading rooms as it was just too hard to find someone that actually wanted a fair trade. The rip-off artists were actually very few, it was mostly people that were deathly afraid of being ripped off so they would only agree to a trade unless it was obvious that the trade was in their favor.
The best way of trading that I found was to wait until you run into someone during a match that you developed a repor with. Then suggest a trade and hopefully both traders will trust each other a little more. Or you can just wait a while until the game is flooded commons and nice people just give them for free to you ...
I agree it would be nice if you could trade a card for "one of:" a list of other cards, sure. The persistent trade feature needs work. But I don't think anyone is being ripped off. With Magic: the Gathering, it was difficult to know what a good trade without buying a book that listed the cards, their rarity, and their going rates. So it was unfortunately not too uncommon for some people to try to exploit newer players.
LoN mitigates against the worst of that since the card itself indicates rarity in the name. The really bad trades in the persistent trade market have been there for days because no one's biting.
Most of my trades were accepted really quickly but I always ask for an equal number of cards of equal rarity (or sometimes, in the case of commons, I'll offer one extra, just to sweeten the deal.) The only trades of mine that are sitting around are where I'm asking for boosters (mostly for the loot cards, which I have no interest in.) I only ask for boosters because at the moment I don't know what additional cards I want and the trading feature doesn't let me say "for any rare I don't have."
LoN mitigates against the worst of that since the card itself indicates rarity in the name. The really bad trades in the persistent trade market have been there for days because no one's biting.
Most of my trades were accepted really quickly but I always ask for an equal number of cards of equal rarity (or sometimes, in the case of commons, I'll offer one extra, just to sweeten the deal.) The only trades of mine that are sitting around are where I'm asking for boosters (mostly for the loot cards, which I have no interest in.) I only ask for boosters because at the moment I don't know what additional cards I want and the trading feature doesn't let me say "for any rare I don't have."
Tobold, just gotta quickly comment, that the ability to have skill in constructing the deck from the random cards you get makes the draft tournament a skill based event instead of gambling event. That's why it's legal. :)
Also in Nevada for example, poker was declared a skill based game and thus made legal even if gambling was at that time illegal in Nevada. That's how the world works :).
Also in Nevada for example, poker was declared a skill based game and thus made legal even if gambling was at that time illegal in Nevada. That's how the world works :).
Hrm...well, I've known SOE Denver, nee Worlds Apart nee Nyantara since they were making Star Chamber and nothing more. Some things to take into consideration:
1. Their rares are not necessarily more powerful, they're just a heck of a lot more specialized. The Norrath players may not know this yet. I play their Stargate and Pirates cames currently and used to play their LotR game and a pile of commons is EASILY worth a rare. The commons decks I'm playing with since the System Lords expansion for Stargate a few weeks back is much easier to win with if I'm not playing someone with exceptional skill.
2. You do know you can put your cards in for trades multiple times? Request to trade card X for Y, card X for Z, card X for A and so on. The other trades become invalid once the first goes through and will clear.
3. Assuming they follow suit on their tournaments there several types for $5 in event passes: Constructed (No Restrictions), New Player Only (score below 1600), Commons Only (constructed), Highlander (one of each card) and then Sealed - 5 event passes, a starter and 3 boosters. The prizes can vary (though not by much). If it's a "special card event" then EVERYONE gets that card. Otherwise, only the person in VERY last place wins nothing. Every other person wins a booster at a minimum. The prizes for a 4-round tourney are usually 4F-3F-3-3-1*-0 with F=foil.
So...human greed aside, it can work better that MtGO. It will just take time to settle.
1. Their rares are not necessarily more powerful, they're just a heck of a lot more specialized. The Norrath players may not know this yet. I play their Stargate and Pirates cames currently and used to play their LotR game and a pile of commons is EASILY worth a rare. The commons decks I'm playing with since the System Lords expansion for Stargate a few weeks back is much easier to win with if I'm not playing someone with exceptional skill.
2. You do know you can put your cards in for trades multiple times? Request to trade card X for Y, card X for Z, card X for A and so on. The other trades become invalid once the first goes through and will clear.
3. Assuming they follow suit on their tournaments there several types for $5 in event passes: Constructed (No Restrictions), New Player Only (score below 1600), Commons Only (constructed), Highlander (one of each card) and then Sealed - 5 event passes, a starter and 3 boosters. The prizes can vary (though not by much). If it's a "special card event" then EVERYONE gets that card. Otherwise, only the person in VERY last place wins nothing. Every other person wins a booster at a minimum. The prizes for a 4-round tourney are usually 4F-3F-3-3-1*-0 with F=foil.
So...human greed aside, it can work better that MtGO. It will just take time to settle.
The traditional way that card stores in my area solved the problem with people drafting high dollar rares was to take all rares away from the players at the end of the draft, then let the players choose which ones they wanted from the set. Players chose in the order they placed in the tourney.
Unfortunately, this probably wouldnt work for the online game.
Unfortunately, this probably wouldnt work for the online game.
Mtg you can play for fun as well. In a competitive environment however the atmosphere for players that understand the meta-game it will be pretty ravenous and the game does have a bit of a darker side really. That being said, the tournaments are structured to pit u vs peers that are typically very good at the game, advanced lvl players are going to be the norm.
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