Tobold's Blog
Wednesday, September 19, 2007
 
Encouraged grouping

Social ties are important in a MMORPG, they contribute a lot to the longevity of the game. But getting people to play together, especially play *nice* together, isn't that easy. Early games tried the concept of enforced grouping, where mobs were simply too hard to kill solo, and people needed to find a group for whatever they wanted to do. That turned out to highly unpopular. Not everybody wants to group all the time. Finding a group requires some unproductive wait time, and then everybody needs to stay together for some time to make the wait worth while. People just wanting a short play session, or likely to be interrupted by real life events, have problems. And in some cases you end up in a horrible pickup group, where the other players play badly and try to grab more than their fair share of the loot. So soloing is a lot more popular.

World of Warcraft did rather well with a concept of optional grouping. You can solo all the way up to the level cap, but some elite quests and all dungeons require a group. And this group content gives out better item rewards than the solo content. A solo player will be mostly dressed in "green" items, while a group player will be mostly dressed in superior "blue" items. That system worked quite well in the early days of WoW. Unfortunately in the long term there are two problems with it: The end game at the level cap has relatively little solo content and a lot more group and raid content. And the older a server gets, the fewer players are available for grouping in the lower levels, often forcing everybody to solo because there simply isn't a group to be found for the dungeon you want to go to. It can be argued that the pendulum has swung too far to the soloing side, and that people should be encouraged to group a bit more.

So how could encouraged grouping look? We don't want to make soloing impossible, or restrict it to limited content. Some people will always want to solo, for personal reasons or because of the length of their play sessions, and we need to accomodate those. What we need to look at is the middle field, the people who are deciding on whether to group or to solo based on the situation, and what is in it for them. And in a game like World of Warcraft or Lord of the Rings Online we will see that these people simply don't group because it isn't efficient. If you are on an average quest to kill ten foozles (I would have said rats, but I didn't want to infringe on somebody's copyright) you get more experience and treasure per hour if you solo the quest than if you group to do it.

The key to this the group experience bonus. If you solo a mob worth 100 xp, you get 100 xp. If you kill the same mob in a group of five players, you get 20 xp (100 divided by 5) plus the group experience bonus. That group experience bonus is relatively small in WoW, so you end up with something like 24 xp for killing that mob. So unless your group has formed instantly and then kills mobs more than 4 times faster than you would solo, you get less experience points per hour in a group than if you soloed.

This opens up great possibilities for tuning. Imagine if killing a 100 xp mob in a group gave 100 xp. As killing in a group is easier and faster than killing solo, grouping would be hugely popular. If the group bonus would be even higher, lets say 200 xp for killing a mob in a group which gives only 100 xp when solo, it would be as if grouping was required, as in a group you'd earn xp much, much faster than solo, and solo would feel like a slow grind compared to group play. Thus by tweaking only one single parameter in the game, the group experience bonus, we can go all the way from a game where everybody soloes to a game where everybody groups. All that needs to be done is to find the right level for the group bonus.

Now I don't know where the right level is. How many xp should a character get for killing a mob in a group of 5, if the same mob gave him 100 xp when soloed? I think 24 xp like in WoW is too little. 100 xp or more is too much. But you'd need a huge field experiment to find out whether the good level is 40 xp, 60 xp, or 80 xp. The bonus should be large enough for players to "risk" joining a pickup group. Yes, I know how much people hate pickup groups, but that is a viscious cycle: good players don't join pickup groups, so pickup groups are full of bad players, so playing in a pickup group is often a bad experience. If a group experience bonus would persuade even good players to join pickup groups more often, the quality of those groups would increase, and they would be less horrible. Sure, you'd get unlucky sometimes and still end up with the idiots and ninja looters. But that would be compensated by gaining more xp whenever you find a decent pickup group. And once in a while you'll find a great pickup group, and end up making new friends. And there would be the real value of making groups more popular.
Comments:
I don't think that giving group XP bonuses is necessarily the best way to encourage grouping. I'd rather have a lot of zones be a lot more dangerous than they are now, and have additional people watching you back be very helpful.

As in: "sure you can go to the black woods and kill the deer there for their skins alone, but if the werewolves attack you while you're doing that you better have some friends along."

Basically knock the PCs a couple rungs down the food chain.
 
I think its ok as is to be honest.

I see your points, and yes it would be a far greater incentive to group with bigger XP but as it stands, quest reward XP isnt changed by the number in your group so you still get a big payoff for your efforts. Probably enough of an increase in quest turnin xp that it accounts for the reduced mob xp.

It makes sense that the effort it takes to solo a mob that would otherwise take a group is rewarded with a bigger 'takedown' xp.If you need help to do it your penalised an amount based on the number of people helping you.

This seems fair to me. Bigger risk grants bigger rewards.

Plus if were talking about level 70 content then the XP gained from killing mobs is null and void anyway, leaving no change other than difficulty in taking the mob down. The payoff comes through the higher level gear rewards you get for a level 70 group quest which again, technically should make up for the reduced gains in other areas that grouping brings on.. shared money, rolls on drops etc.
 
I tried wow a couple of times and every time got bored quite fast all due to the grouping process. Lets be honest solo MMORPG is freaking boring unless the fight system is a lot of fun which in WoW is really not the case and since you can lvl really fast to max lvl solo most players wont bother to waste time grouping for anything.

That said you get a game which is a solo game with boring fighting system and a large world so unless you have some friends to play with or you like to run around and enjoy the visuals you are screwed to be bored quite fast.
 
Grouping deserves a bigger discussion -- you might almost be to the point where you should start a ToboldWiki for items like this one because you'll touch on it again and again in different forms.

I mean, there's Alterac Valley and other battleground forced grouping. There are quests where you'll be encouraged to group up so everyone isn't poaching each other's kills (daily quests in the Netherwing Mines) and other times when grouping will slow you down (everyone is trying to collect 10 of a rare drop).

The group bonus seems like a concession to people who theorycraft too much and decide NOT to group even when it's in their interest.

Coming at the problem a different way: We might choose to assume that Blizzard's grouping bonus is absolutely perfectly tuned, and then try to figure out why that is the case.

(Stream of consciousness comment over) -- Mike
 
Tobold Blizzard already had this system in place in Diablo 2. The more players you had the better the experience. What you ended up with was everyone doing cow runs( usually with one Amazon just telling everyone else to stay out of the way).

I'm guessing this same system was on their drawing board at one point. They probably didn't want to see 40 man raids in netherstorm 24/7 :)

Solo play was put in place because so many people didn't want to be forced into a group. I am a hardcore fanboy of Final Fantasy, yet I never played their MMORPG because of the forced grouping.

I play WoW a lot. But I love the solo/group setting as it is. It's very relaxing for me to put on some music and run around killing quest mobs. During that time I add myself to LFG, watch the LFG channel, and monitor guild chat. When a group comes up I go. If they made it less efficient to solo the outdoor zones, I don't know if I would log on so much.

Most of my fondest memories of WoW come from finding a random cave or building I have no place going into, then wasting 2 hours fighting my way in. Have you ever tried finding a PUG player and saying "there is no gain from this, but lets see what's inside".

Solo when you want to, group when you want to. I like it :)
 
And in a game like World of Warcraft or Lord of the Rings Online we will see that these people simply don't group because it isn't efficient.

That's only true for Lotro in the lower levels. In the mid-high levels it's more forced grouping (No not encouraged), at least quest-wise. Lotro has a strange quest system in any case. Since they are often built in long quest chains and mix and match group and solo content left and right you really have to be a part of a regular group that always play together. And if someone falls behind count on doing all the steps more than once. Actually you're more likely to do it 10 times than 1. Oh, and if you don't have a regular group prepare for pug hell.

On the encouraged grouping, didn't some games have that in the old days? I seem to remember that Daoc had some xp bonuses in groups?
 
As usual, thoughtful discussion Tobold.

I think a key point you bring up is the need to persuade even good players to join PUGs. In my opinion, such a thing would never be welcome, especially in an MMO marketed heavily to Americans.

I'd argue that good players avoid grouping with pugs because they don't want a worse player benefitting from their hard work and expertise. They'd rather advance quickly under their own steam and leave the weak players to advance slowly, even if they could advance even faster by "dragging" a weaker player along with them. No one likes to feel that they are being "leeched" from.

Do you think this type of thinking might influence or limit the willingness of people who consider themselves "good players" to join pugs, even if the rewards (xp modifier, for instance) for teaming were very high? MMOs are, in some ways and for some people, about competition.
 
Speaking as confirmed anti-social introvert, XP bonuses are a complete red herring.

The only thing that'll get someone like me to willingly group, is not game rewards doing so, but being able discover a bunch of people I will actually *enjoy* hanging out with.

And MMORPGs suck utterly for that. No really, they do.

All the tools for forming groups in MMORPGs are rigidly game-centric, they provide absolutely no information at all for determining 'is this the sort of person I would enjoy playing this game with?' or for them to do the same about me, instead they concentrate on things like class and level and active quests and guild doings. Compare this to even the most primitive of the social networking website, or a bunch of people seperately blogging and commenting and linking to each other, or even just some guys posting on a webforum somewhere.

Where are the friends lists? the interest lists? the friends of a friend lists? The publically and viewable ongoing and past conversations -- why oh why, are user created chat channels on MMORPGs invariably invisible unless you know the s00per-secret name? -- the calendaring system so you can keep track of when people are going to be around, and everyone else can keep track of when you're going to be around?

And then to compound this problem of not being able to find anyone from *in-game* you'd want play with without the use of huge helpings of random dumb luck -- because the information just simply isn't there -- your average MMORPG goes and drastically limits the set of people its even *feasible* for your beloved character to group with by requiring that they have bought the right box to allow them to access the servers on your continent, have characters on your presice same server as you, that are of the same level, who are of the same PvP faction (even if you don't give a damn about PvP), and are already in an area of the world it's reasonably convenient for you or they to get to.

And thats leaving aside the inevitable and inescapable fact that they'll need to be playing *at the same time* you are.

The temerity of expecting me to group up in order to experience *any* of the content in such a primitve environment for finding people I actually want to play with...

...Well grrrrrrrrr. Just Grrrrrrrr.

So...

- If your segregate servers by marketing deal/distribution deal region, stop that!
- Break the link between the characters I've created and any particular server, so I can log any of my characters in on any server that isn't currently full.
- Let me instantly move from one server to another in game.
- Cross server chat.
- *Public*, user created chat channels as well as secret named ones.
- We need publically viewable blogs and journals for each account and character. These should also be readable out-game.
- Chat excerpts and quest information easy to publish on the ingame blog/journal.
- Automatically joined, default 'class of NNN' guilds for new characters.
- Calendaring tools. Even if I'm not a big wheel in a guild.
- Stop that silliness of attribute and Hit Point increases with leveling, so anybody can sensibly group with any one else. Give everyone sensible static amounts of HP and attributes. Leveling by adding new skills and equipment.
- Setup as much two-way integration between your game and all the popular social networking, blog, commenting, and webforum platforms as you can arrange. In-game blog to out-game blog, in-game friends list to out-game friends list, and vice versa. Interests lists, favourite links, heck even lists of papers published in peer-reviewed journals, viewable in-game. Publishable current and historical character information, out-game publishable notable deeds by pressing an in-game button, 'yes I'm in-game now' and 'make a date to be in-game soon' widgets for webistes. etc. etc.

Do all that and maybe, *maybe*, I'll group, even despite my natural temprament, because it would then be far far more likely I'll actually *know* and encounter people I'd enjoy grouping with, and then be able to do it without huge design barriers in the way.

...or maybe not, I'm likely a hopeless case, but your other subscribers will thank you :)
 
You touch on a few points that have been done in other games. Final Fantasy XI did exactly that... it provided experience bonuses that rewarded better group play. Their system was pretty simple. Fight a monster that was a certain challenge level relative to your level, and get experience points. The harder the challenge, the more experience you got. Then kill another, and then another. After killing a monster, the game engine would start up a hidden timer window within which players would then have to kill a subsequent monster. If you were able to kill a subsequent monster within that time window, you'd obtain the monster's experience, plus a percentage bonus. You could then continue to kill, and the longer the chain became, the bigger the experience multiplier became (120%, 150%, 200%, etc.), and the smaller the 'kill' window became (first kill to second kill, 120 seconds. Second to third, 90 seconds. Third to fourth, 60 seconds. Etc.).

So how do you translate this to a solo game? If players can do this sort of experience chaining on their own, how much faster would they level in groups? If the fast experience is only doable in groups, how do you have a meaningful solo game if everyone feels they *have* to group in order to level up at a good rate?

How do you balance the game's pace? Is it focused around the rate at which groups gain experience? The rate at which solo players gain experience? The top end groups? The bottom end groups?

It's a much more deeply rooted issue than the surface arguments.

--Rawr
 
Hasn't it been confirmed for LOTRO that the loot tables improve when you're in a fellowship? That would seem to encourage grouping...
 
Final Fantasy XI did exactly that... it provided experience bonuses that rewarded better group play.

Unfortunately FFXI is also my prime example of how *not* to do group experience. If you had a group of 4 people of level 20 and invited one guy of level 22 into it, that would cut the xp for everybody in half, because the new guy was "high level", and xp was based on the highest level in the group, and decreasing sharply. So you absolutely needed to group with people of your level +-1, which made finding a group very hard.

I think a key point you bring up is the need to persuade even good players to join PUGs. In my opinion, such a thing would never be welcome, especially in an MMO marketed heavily to Americans.

That brings me to another FFXI observation: There are real cultural differences in PUGs. In FFXI you get the opportunity to group with Asians sometimes, and its an eye opener. Asians are much more willing to put their personal needs behind the greater good of a group, which makes PUGs with Asians often much nicer than PUGs with Americans or Europeans, even if you can barely communicate.
 
The version of group exp bonus in EQ1 when I left it (a year or so ago) ended up giving you 50% of solo exp for a given mob in a group, with the benefit of much easier kills. With even a moderately good group, you'd roll in the exp.

Not saying it was a good model, but it was the last time I recall feeling like group exp was "worth it". I've never grouped for exp purposes outside of there. It simply wasn't even worth considering.
 
Grouping in the current crop of MMO's doesn't need any more "encouragement."

I've been playing EQ2 on and off for three years. I almost exclusively duo in that game. While it has plenty of solo/duo content, the "rewards" border on insulting. In fact the game design is damn near punitive for us (ironically less so than in WoW, which we also played but for only three months.) Take for example a long and involved solo quest chain found in the Feerot. You need to be in the low 40's to solo it (depending on equipment) or mid/late 30's to duo. The reward after completing this rather lengthy quest? A level 27 ring. Yeah.

We're both professional working adults (sans children) with fairly stressful IT jobs. I don't want nor do I need to meet "new people' in an MMO, especially when these "people" are often ADD afflicted 20 somethings who are nearly unbearable being around. If anything MMO's need to find creative ways to better reward those of us who for whatever reasons don't group. There are plenty reasons already in place for the munchinks to group up to get their shiny baubles.

Luckily for us EQ2 has more to offer than just loot (even though that is the central premise, as it is for all dikus.) The guild leveling, crafting, housing, titles, content worth during with alts etc keeps us interested enough to remain subscribed.
 
The thing about FFXI's grouping system was that it had a great foundation (skill chain, experience chain, etc.) but was not tuned to be friendly enough to players (harsh level discrepancy policy, harsh solo-play experience, etc.). The level discrepancy thing is a small thing, you could easily fix that by tuning content to be based on a per-character basis, or a weighted value based on the levels in the party.

However, it still goes back to the points I made first... it's a matter of pacing. How does one pace a game that has variable group sizes without screwing over players in certain categories?
 
I actually soloed to level 70 and that was a painful experience (not nearly as painful as PUGs, but still). I never thought I could that again, so no other toon made it past level 20 before being consigned to the delete zone.

Recently I began playing in a regular group of four made up of myself, my partner, and two close friends. While we only play once or twice a week, we plow through quests and rake in the quest XP and rewards much faster than I could simply playing solo.

For those, probably few, players who do run in a regular group, an XP bonus would be nothing but good. For players who tend to solo it would definetly make group more attractive, but the immaturity and lack of cooperation would still be present. That would take time as enough quality and cooperative players would have to begin group in PUGs to have a better population from which to group.

Personally I'd advocate finding a small group of regular players and devoting time to just running with them and enjoying the experience.
 
I agree with MagrothJ comment.

I had two accounts in LOTRO and got them both to lv 49.

I recently cancelled both, since all of the quests now require groups and I would spend 1-2 hours online looking for a group, settle for a unbalanced one or some 10 year old that leaves in the middle.

Killed my whole game experience, and I was the biggest LOTRO lover you could find for the first three months.
 
What I would like to see is a game that has regular server wipes and very defining skilltree/roles and doesnt allow "rerolling".

To make it interesting and fair, everyone lvls at the same rate(online or not), however they are only as useful as the skills they choose. These skilltrees/roles that you pick can fill out what you need to solo or group play, and with each server "wipe" if you were able to reach endgame you would then gain some sort of permanent reward (ie custom title/gear/status/glow/etc) to show off and encourage new players to compete while stil offering fresh non-lvl based competition.

What daunts MMO's imo is the scalability of time/money really can offset someone who might not actually know how to play very well. By doing wipes, intruducing gameplay that depends on how you spend your skilltree points/choose your role you can offer a game that is less QQing and more pewpewing.

They could also have a reward be your char doesnt get wiped, and you can use that for other ingame things like siege warfare (lots of deaths, lots of delvling, really for the players who experience the game at a faster pace yet willing to pay the exp debt to participate). Think of it as new chars testing the waters with the regular wipes, learning the game and ingame mechanics and etc... then once they reach a point where they are competitive they can do the massively multiplayer smashfest seiges.
 
I think also games they have nowadays are not enough reward and not enough penalties.

Why not have both? balance it out so people have an advantage at all times vs some class/build yet weak to others. Put rewards that are meaningful not just temporarily, but can be rewards you will remember (Some games have hall of fames or high score boards or etc, for MMO's this could be more dramatized as something more like the player of teh day award, most succesfull campaigner/pvper or many other titles that could be posted ingame for you to be able to link to other players if you wanted.
 
I like your ideas Ten Mohican. It reminds me of a MUD I used to play except better.
 
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