Friday, September 14, 2007
EQ2 as knowledge-based gaming
My excuses if this EQ2 post sounds a bit like the last one, but I did something similar in EQ2 to what I did last weekend, and it made me realize some things. My warden is level 16 now, and in Kelethin I got offered a quest which was obviously the start of a series of crafting quests. Oh, interesting! I already did some of the simple crafting quests, make X items and receive status and money for them, but this one appeared to be more complex.
The first step of the quest told me that for the crafting I'd need lots of materials, and asked me to travel to Thundering Steppes and gather 50 tier 3 resources there. Now if I had been a total noob, that would have been the end of it. At that point of the game there isn't even a safe way for a level 16 character to *get* to the Thundering Steppes, and with the place swarming with aggressive mobs in the mid-20s, it is hardly safe to gather resources there. But I had two things going for me: One was the probably most popular spell in the history of the Everquest series, Spirit of Wolf, or SoW for short, which makes me run much faster, enabling me to outrun many mobs. The other was previous knowledge.
I knew that on the west side of Thundering Steppes there is a large area full of non-aggressive centaurs with lots of resources, because I had gathered those resources with my level 14 guardian / 26 carpenter 3 years ago. (The centaurs are kind of funny, because the females wear panties between their front legs, which if you think about centaur anatomy doesn't make sense at all. There isn't anything to cover there.) And I knew how to get to Thundering Steppes because I had travelled to Antonica last weekend, and getting to the Steppes is even easier, there is a direct boat from Butcherblock docks. So I ran like hell through dangerous Butcherblock, and then again through Thundering Steppes until I arrived at the centaur place. There are some aggressive griffons and lions there, but not all that many, and they are easily avoided. I gathered my 50 resources, plus some extra pelts and roots for my tailoring, even got a few rares, and then teleported back. Next step is crafting something with those resources, I'll see where that leads to this weekend.
But the whole exercise made me realize how important knowledge is in Everquest 2. Not that knowledge isn't helpful in World of Warcraft; but in WoW there is much more hand-holding and guiding you to your destination. There aren't any quests in WoW in the dwarven newbie zone that ask you to go the other continent and gather stuff from Ashenvale, a higher level elvish zone, with no information on how to get there. And WoW quests usually tell you pretty much exactly where you have to go. Not so in Everquest 2. Even the worst WoW quest (finding Mankrik's wife in the Barrens) gives a lot more hints as to where to go compared to many EQ2 quests. I don't know if that quest still exists, but back in 2004 I had a quest in Qeynos that asked me to find "a dwarf in Antonica". With Antonica being twice as big as the Barrens, and no hint whatsoever as to the location, that is a lot harder than finding Mankrik's wife, of who you know at least that she is close to the Gold Road and near the Bristlebacks. In World of Warcraft most quests are for close to where you are, leading you to content appropriate to your level, and once you run out of quests for that corner, there will be a quest leading you to the next higher one. In Everquest 2 quests are all over the place, leading you in many different directions towards content of different levels, and it is up to you to chose where to go. Even newbie quests like "Welcome to Kelethin" ask you to find landmarks of which you are only told the name, with no hint as to their location (I was level 15 by the time I finished that level 7 quest, because I couldn't find the Opal Pond).
What I realized was that this isn't due to bad game design, this is by intent. If you were told where the Opal Pond is, or looked it up on sites like Allakhazam, the quest would be trivial and boring. But if you go exploring on your own you'll learn more about the zone, and the more you explored the zone, the easier it gets to find all those landmarks or mobs for quests, because you remember where you saw them. Quests in EQ2 aren't there to lead you to somewhere like in WoW. In EQ2 quests are there to reward you for the knowledge you acquired about the game. The search for your goal, or the previous exploration that makes you know where that goal is, is an integral and important part of the quest. Or as Raph would say it: It is the learning about the game that is fun.
And up to now that is working very well. I'm having fun exploring Greater Faydark. In the few cases where I really can't find something and get frustrated, I look it up on some website or with my EQmap UI mod (which still messes up my inventory, although I downloaded the latest version, so I haven't loaded it permanently). I would still say that for a player new to MMORPGs World of Warcraft is the better choice. But with growing MMORPG experience at some point you just don't want to be guided any more, and a game where you have to find everything out for yourself is more fun. In EQ2 I have the impression to have a bewildering multitude of options what to do next, and that is not a bad thing. Every day in the game I learn something more, and that is fun. Reading a quest and saying "Hah! I know where that is!" is fun. I call it knowledge-based gaming, and so far I'm enjoying it.
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Learning about new areas on your own is alot of fun. I remember when BC first came out, i put people in my own guild on ignore because they were the wow lifers with no job that played 15hrs a day and would always link quest rewards or loot drops for areas constantly like they discovered something amazing when the rest of the guild was still a day or two from that zone.
I've been thinking with AoC & WAR, instead of joining a guild, I may go freelance until I max out. Benefits would be:
1) not rushed to keep up with guild member lvs
2) Enjoy the surprise of quests or items that have not been spoiled by powerplayers linking/talking about them (prob have to turn off zone chat because the braggers will be there looking for pats on he back too)
3)Not having to listen to annoying requests for help all day long from someone a few lvs lower
4) Best reason of all...not having to read/hear DING 50 times a day! I loathe DING. I nearly lost my mind when I started my 2nd char to 60/70 on a new server and had to go thru the pains of Dings all day and people constanly linking loot or bragging about obtaining their SM key lol
I've been thinking with AoC & WAR, instead of joining a guild, I may go freelance until I max out. Benefits would be:
1) not rushed to keep up with guild member lvs
2) Enjoy the surprise of quests or items that have not been spoiled by powerplayers linking/talking about them (prob have to turn off zone chat because the braggers will be there looking for pats on he back too)
3)Not having to listen to annoying requests for help all day long from someone a few lvs lower
4) Best reason of all...not having to read/hear DING 50 times a day! I loathe DING. I nearly lost my mind when I started my 2nd char to 60/70 on a new server and had to go thru the pains of Dings all day and people constanly linking loot or bragging about obtaining their SM key lol
or looked it up on sites like Allakhazam
Isn't that the problem Tobold - If an objective is hard to find then it is very hard to resist the impulse to google it and that does spoil immersion. I prefer it when there is enough information in game to find the object you are looking for. I don't mind if the clues are a little cryptic or if there is a trail to follow but I hate it when there are not enough clues in game.
Isn't that the problem Tobold - If an objective is hard to find then it is very hard to resist the impulse to google it and that does spoil immersion. I prefer it when there is enough information in game to find the object you are looking for. I don't mind if the clues are a little cryptic or if there is a trail to follow but I hate it when there are not enough clues in game.
Normally the quest journal only keeps the basic information of the quest. But if you read what the NPC that gives you the quest, they normally give you a little more information of where you need to go (not always).
Also on a side note, you said a few times having to make that run thru Butcherblock is scary. Make sure you pick up the griffon tower quest. Once you get the updates from all 3 towers, you can skip the run and use the griffons.
Also on a side note, you said a few times having to make that run thru Butcherblock is scary. Make sure you pick up the griffon tower quest. Once you get the updates from all 3 towers, you can skip the run and use the griffons.
[i]If an objective is hard to find then it is very hard to resist the impulse to google it and that does spoil immersion.[/i]
It really depends on your playstyle. I can leave quests in my logbook for about a week and a half before I start getting frustrated and use an external resource. In LOTRO, I have to turn off Advice because of all the quest spoilers that are posted. What fits nicely in that game is roleplaying in /say to find out where objectives are.
It really depends on your playstyle. I can leave quests in my logbook for about a week and a half before I start getting frustrated and use an external resource. In LOTRO, I have to turn off Advice because of all the quest spoilers that are posted. What fits nicely in that game is roleplaying in /say to find out where objectives are.
Also on a side note, you said a few times having to make that run thru Butcherblock is scary. Make sure you pick up the griffon tower quest. Once you get the updates from all 3 towers, you can skip the run and use the griffons.
On my first run last weekend I got the quest and tagged the towers neater Greater Faydark and near the docks. In yesterday's run I tagged the tower at Lesser Faydark as well, and now I can fly instead of run. But I don't think I would have reached the third tower without SoW.
On my first run last weekend I got the quest and tagged the towers neater Greater Faydark and near the docks. In yesterday's run I tagged the tower at Lesser Faydark as well, and now I can fly instead of run. But I don't think I would have reached the third tower without SoW.
Knowledge is the secret sauce. It's why EQ players keep coming back for more. All those deaths and body recoveries pay off with valuable information - where to level, best spots to camp, etc. I can run through Upper Guk in 30 seconds (if invis) without getting lost and I paid a huge price in time investment to be able to do that; same with high pass hold. This is why it's stupid for SOE to update/change old zones - they just don't get it.
I agree with you 100%. EQ2 has always felt much more interesting to me than wow specifically because of everything that was written in this post. The world just feels much bigger and more alive. And this is coming from a guy with 2 level 70 locks in Warcraft. :)
Although I admit that there is a lot of hand-holding in WoW quests, I don't think that it's the sole contributing factor. I claim that game popularity and information-gathering addons is what trivialized exploring in WoW.
First, take a huge pool of players and arm some of them with an addon that records everything you interact with. Eventually you will end up with a database that contains everything that can be known about the world. If you have less players, little or no information gathering addons and a larger world (how big is EQ2's world when compared to Azeroth, anyway?), the unknown areas will stay unknown for a longer period of time.
And it's not like WoW hasn't dabbled with exploration.. Just go to Desolace, Badlands, Hinterlands, Felwood, Un'goro, Azshara, Searing Gorge, Eastern Plaguelands or Burning Steppes as Horde. I'd claim that first-timers did quite a lot of exploring in those zones. In general, the hand-holding takes a back seat at around level 40, the first big milestone.
Content density is also a factor. People have grown to expect that for any given area or mob, there are quests for it. Because you can't do a quest until you accept it, you are discouraged from going to places until you are explicitly told to do so. Random drops that start a quest are a good addition, but Blizzard could really steal (and refine) the idea of reversible quests from their competitors. If an NPC wants ten rats killed, it should not matter whether you do it before or after he asks you to do so.
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First, take a huge pool of players and arm some of them with an addon that records everything you interact with. Eventually you will end up with a database that contains everything that can be known about the world. If you have less players, little or no information gathering addons and a larger world (how big is EQ2's world when compared to Azeroth, anyway?), the unknown areas will stay unknown for a longer period of time.
And it's not like WoW hasn't dabbled with exploration.. Just go to Desolace, Badlands, Hinterlands, Felwood, Un'goro, Azshara, Searing Gorge, Eastern Plaguelands or Burning Steppes as Horde. I'd claim that first-timers did quite a lot of exploring in those zones. In general, the hand-holding takes a back seat at around level 40, the first big milestone.
Content density is also a factor. People have grown to expect that for any given area or mob, there are quests for it. Because you can't do a quest until you accept it, you are discouraged from going to places until you are explicitly told to do so. Random drops that start a quest are a good addition, but Blizzard could really steal (and refine) the idea of reversible quests from their competitors. If an NPC wants ten rats killed, it should not matter whether you do it before or after he asks you to do so.
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