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Sunday, September 16, 2007
Improving player-run economy
The auction house in World of Warcraft is a wonderful tool if you want to sell your Sword of Uberness to the highest bidder. But this specific setup of auction house isn't ideal for trading commodities. There is a very long post on a Pirates of the Burning Sea developer's blog on why their auction house is better for trade in commodities (My thanks to Pendan, who posted that link in my comments section Friday.) But are invisible prices really the best we can do? I think further improvement is possible.
Player-run economies suffer from various problems. One is the very start, where all the auction houses are empty, and people can't produce goods because they lack the other goods they need to build the production facilities. GMs then usually "seed" the auction houses with goods, until some clever player comes and buys out all the seeded goods to resell them for twice the money. But even long after the start it is possible that some good simply isn't available at all, stopping a player from doing whatever it was he wanted to do. Other goods are in abundant supply, causing the underbidding wars described in the dev post above. When players sell items on the auction house for less than they are worth to an NPC, or less than they cost to produce if there is a production cost, the economy has a problem too.
What would be needed is a better regulated market, in which each good has a minimum and maximum price. There should be an infinite supply of any good at maximum price, and the market should buy goods in infinite numbers at minimum price. We will also want the market to be dynamic, thus the actual price should fluctuate between minimum and maximum, based on supply and demand. So how do we install such a system?
Easy, we get rid of the auction house, and install an NPC broker instead. This broker will buy and sell any trade good there is in the game. When you open the broker window and select a good, lets say iron, you'll see a pyramid which is partially filled starting from the top and has several segments. This represents the iron "market" at this broker. Each segment of the pyramid is a price level, with the price marked next to it. At the top of the pyramid is the maximum price we want to allow for this good. If the pyramid is completely empty, people can still buy iron, but only at this maximum price. They can also sell iron at the maximum price, but the more they sell, the more the pyramid fills up, until the first segment is full, and any further good is sold at the next lower price. If the pyramid is completely filled, you can still buy and sell at the lowest price. Every good has its own pyramid. And if your game allows for transport (like EVE Online or PotBS), you can have brokers with different prices at different locations, with players able to make a profit by buying low and selling high, thus moving these different markets towards equilibrium.
The disadvantage of this system is that the player can no longer freely choose a price, he can only accept or not accept the current price. Given how irrational player pricing has turned out, that might actually not be such a bad thing. The big advantage of the system is that both buying and selling happens immediately. In an auction system only buyouts happen immediately. For bids you need to wait for the auction to end. And worst off in an auction system are the sellers, who need to wait for somebody to buy their goods, sometimes waiting in vain. Much of the bad pricing in a WoW auction house can be explained by the fear of not selling at all. The pyramid broker market works as an intermediate, buying and selling instantly, and holding all the inventory with a computer-typical endless patience. All the trade goods are always available, at a price.
Oh, and if the game besides trade goods also has more unique items, you can have the pyramid broker market and the auction house in parallel. The broker is for all commodities: the raw materials and intermediate goods of crafting, as well as all consumables and crafted goods that you'd want always available. The auction house is for selling the Sword of Uberness to the highest bidder.
- posted by Tobold @ 8:27 AM Permanent Link
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I think you need a both a commodity trader and an auction house for rarer goods.
Last time I played (about 9 months ago) Guild wars had commodity trading NPCs but had no proper auction house. The commodity market was highly liquid and prices fairly stable. High end weapons and equipment however could only be sold by open outcry and it was so much hassle that most players never even bothered and a lot of valuable stuff got vendered for peanuts.
NPC commodity traders make it harder for humans to profit from trading but really it only eliminates the exploitation of the ignorant. A savvy trader who follows market trends could still make a living buying low and selling high. Sadly the NPC brokers in Guild Wars took a savage margin (difference between buying and selling price) which makes it hard to make a profit even if the price does move.
Last time I played (about 9 months ago) Guild wars had commodity trading NPCs but had no proper auction house. The commodity market was highly liquid and prices fairly stable. High end weapons and equipment however could only be sold by open outcry and it was so much hassle that most players never even bothered and a lot of valuable stuff got vendered for peanuts.
NPC commodity traders make it harder for humans to profit from trading but really it only eliminates the exploitation of the ignorant. A savvy trader who follows market trends could still make a living buying low and selling high. Sadly the NPC brokers in Guild Wars took a savage margin (difference between buying and selling price) which makes it hard to make a profit even if the price does move.
What do you call "actual economic ability? Do you mean buying underpriced items from the WoW AH and reselling them for a higher price? The broker system wouldn't work well for WoW, it needs a game with a player-run economy, where crafting is actually important.
Sorry, Hexedian, didn't see your post before I wrote mine. If I had, I would have linked it. File it under "great minds think alike". :)
My idea came from frustration with a beta I can't talk about, the Guild Wars broker, and remembering Earth & Beyond, where the static market basically killed an otherwise decent game.
My idea came from frustration with a beta I can't talk about, the Guild Wars broker, and remembering Earth & Beyond, where the static market basically killed an otherwise decent game.
The installation of set pricing based on a supply pyramid removed the free trade element of supply and demand. That would subtract from the enjoyment of a game that allows auction houses. I think this proposal is really a reaction to the massive inflation (and hence devaluation) of the MMO$ (specifically the WoW$ - or gp). Blizzard has pumped waaaay too much gold into the game. That's what has really broken the AH. If gold was far less prevalent, people would look at that Sword of Uberness for 2000gp and see it as too pricey for their gp.
The question is, will developers ever see unchecked inflation as a problem and do something about it? I doubt it...players like to see their coffers grow as they play. They just don't think that their 10,000gp now is really the same as 500gp when inflation-adjusted.
mm
The question is, will developers ever see unchecked inflation as a problem and do something about it? I doubt it...players like to see their coffers grow as they play. They just don't think that their 10,000gp now is really the same as 500gp when inflation-adjusted.
mm
# posted by 
: 17/9/07 17:19
: 17/9/07 17:19
The POTBS system is pretty much the same as CoX (and I think FF?) I love it and think it's great, have you tried it?
In that system there is already a "minimum" which is the price you can sell to a vendor. Maximum is whatever you are willing to pay, as long as there is one item at least then you'll get it, and the seller will get that much. By matching the bid with the lowest ask, it encourages people to put low asks.
Putting mins and maxes only hurts players in the long run, just as it hurts people in real life when you try to force prices on an economy. It will actually make things even worse for non-farmers, since the lowered profit margins may make all but the 24/7 farmers too inefficient.
It sounds like what you want is a "market maker" that will start buying when supplies get low to keep trade flowing and keep prices from going crazy. Of course in real life we've been trying to get away from market makers.
I think a simpler solution would be to see the last n trades, going back farther. In CoX you only see the last 5 trades which is too short.
Anyway, if you can get a trial of CoX try that out and you'll see how the system works instead of having to wait for POTBS. Then write a review of that :)
In that system there is already a "minimum" which is the price you can sell to a vendor. Maximum is whatever you are willing to pay, as long as there is one item at least then you'll get it, and the seller will get that much. By matching the bid with the lowest ask, it encourages people to put low asks.
Putting mins and maxes only hurts players in the long run, just as it hurts people in real life when you try to force prices on an economy. It will actually make things even worse for non-farmers, since the lowered profit margins may make all but the 24/7 farmers too inefficient.
It sounds like what you want is a "market maker" that will start buying when supplies get low to keep trade flowing and keep prices from going crazy. Of course in real life we've been trying to get away from market makers.
I think a simpler solution would be to see the last n trades, going back farther. In CoX you only see the last 5 trades which is too short.
Anyway, if you can get a trial of CoX try that out and you'll see how the system works instead of having to wait for POTBS. Then write a review of that :)
# posted by : 17/9/07 18:07
: 17/9/07 18:07
I agree with anonymous. Set pricing takes away a part of the game I like to play, market value.
The WoW system fixes itself. If one player buys all the items and resells them at a higher price, it only lasts for a small time till players see how valuable the commodity is and starts to farm it. This drives the supply up, demand down, and things get cheap again.
Sure inflation happens. Blizzard tried to fix it a little with the 5000g mounts, essentially wiping mass amounts of gold. What did they get? A bunch of whining about how much gold it cost.
I like this system, it allows a player to make decisions on what an item is worth to them, not what they expect to pay.
Just this weekend I needed one Small Radiant Shard for a Fiery Weapon Enchant. They sell for 7g on my server. I saw that there were none on the AH. Well, I can't make it without that fourth one, so I put mine on the AH for 15g. They sold in 15 minutes.
The people who bought them were willing to pay 15g. If they hadn't, I would get them back the next day, and drop my price if I wished to sell them.
This is basic supply and demand and it works.
I've seen many articles complaining about how MMORPG's are becoming more and more "safe" by placing things in the system to protect players. PVP flags for griefing protection, instances to prevent camping, solo leveling to avoid mandatory grouping. Isn't what is being proposed here just adding to that? Market flexibility is probably the only thing left in WoW that a player can take advantage of if they wish to take the time. Personally, if I want to sell something at ten times the normal value to someone willing to pay, I should be able to. They don't have to buy it. If they didn't, the price would never go up in the first place.
The WoW system fixes itself. If one player buys all the items and resells them at a higher price, it only lasts for a small time till players see how valuable the commodity is and starts to farm it. This drives the supply up, demand down, and things get cheap again.
Sure inflation happens. Blizzard tried to fix it a little with the 5000g mounts, essentially wiping mass amounts of gold. What did they get? A bunch of whining about how much gold it cost.
I like this system, it allows a player to make decisions on what an item is worth to them, not what they expect to pay.
Just this weekend I needed one Small Radiant Shard for a Fiery Weapon Enchant. They sell for 7g on my server. I saw that there were none on the AH. Well, I can't make it without that fourth one, so I put mine on the AH for 15g. They sold in 15 minutes.
The people who bought them were willing to pay 15g. If they hadn't, I would get them back the next day, and drop my price if I wished to sell them.
This is basic supply and demand and it works.
I've seen many articles complaining about how MMORPG's are becoming more and more "safe" by placing things in the system to protect players. PVP flags for griefing protection, instances to prevent camping, solo leveling to avoid mandatory grouping. Isn't what is being proposed here just adding to that? Market flexibility is probably the only thing left in WoW that a player can take advantage of if they wish to take the time. Personally, if I want to sell something at ten times the normal value to someone willing to pay, I should be able to. They don't have to buy it. If they didn't, the price would never go up in the first place.
# posted by : 17/9/07 18:16
: 17/9/07 18:16
Lack of economic information and data in-game is the root cause for most of WoW's economy woes. Forgetting the unique and rare items and focusing on just crafting materials and consumables, a player is hard pressed to know whether that a stack of netherweave is priced according to demand or simply some number a player plucked out of the air.
Observing prices in the AH over time can give a player some sense of how desirable and thereby how costly something is, not having real data means a player is often guessing at whether the item is over or underpriced. It would actually help normalize the economy if a player could see the performance of something over time and better guage if buying at the established price is too great a risk or not.
While there are various websites that try to provide this information and addons which scan the AH and are closer to what we need, information obtained directly from the source would be more accurate. Information and players using this information are what I think are needed more than a free-for-all economy or one with hard-set rules to control outrageous pricing.
Observing prices in the AH over time can give a player some sense of how desirable and thereby how costly something is, not having real data means a player is often guessing at whether the item is over or underpriced. It would actually help normalize the economy if a player could see the performance of something over time and better guage if buying at the established price is too great a risk or not.
While there are various websites that try to provide this information and addons which scan the AH and are closer to what we need, information obtained directly from the source would be more accurate. Information and players using this information are what I think are needed more than a free-for-all economy or one with hard-set rules to control outrageous pricing.
# posted by : 17/9/07 22:27
: 17/9/07 22:27
I found in FF, npcs prices for selling items to were ridiculously low and on the AH the same items would make lots of money this was partly to do with the fact that collecting your own crafting components was ridiculously time consuming. since there arent quests of the type that say kill 20 creatures of a given type. Thus the notion of having to farm. On fairly mature servers inflation was quite high and the general nature of accumulating cash was so time consuming ppl just "bought" money and then overpaid for everything on the AH driving up prices.
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# posted by : 31/10/07 16:04
: 31/10/07 16:04<< Home
