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Wednesday, October 03, 2007
What to reward in a MMORPG
One of the constant criticisms leveled against most current MMORPGs is that they only reward time spent in game. Your level and virtual wealth depend almost linearly on how many hours you spent playing. You can actually predict with some accuracy how many hours an average gamer needs to play to reach the level cap. But what else could a MMORPG reward? I think I can summarize it with three points: money, real time, and skill.
Money and real time are somewhat related, via monthly fees. Did you know that you can buy 1,000 WoW gold directly from Blizzard for $40? It works like this: You pay them $40 for a 3-month subscription, and every day you log on for the 10 minutes it takes to do the daily quest that gives 12 gold. At the end of the 3 months you have 1,000 gold. The daily quest is a typical real time reward, but as your monthly fee is also due in real time, you could also consider it as being a reward for money spent. Other real time rewards are the xp rest bonus of WoW and other games, EVE Online's skill gains in real time, or the harvesters in SWG.
You can also reward players for money spent directly, without linking it to time. That is usually called microtransactions, the game company sells to players game items on their website for cash. Very popular in Asia, very much disputed as a model in the Western world. Which is strange, given how much higher the GDP of the USA or Europe is compared to Asian countries. Apparently in many games that have microtransactions the most popular items to buy are buffs that double your xp gains for a certain time. So basically you can substitute money for time, spending more of the former to spend less of the latter. Although some people are very much opposed to that in principle, it has to be noted that while games like WoW don't offer time savings for cash directly, there is obviously a huge demand for it, which is what fuels the whole gold farming business. Buying gold in WoW from a third-party website also costs money and saves time in the game. But it isn't allowed by the EULA and ToS, and is considered as cheating by many people, plus is gives rise to many secondary negative effects like gold spam.
The holy grail of MMORPGs is rewarding players for skill. That doesn't really happen all that much in mass market MMOs. Game companies have an interest in allowing even the least skilled players to progress, because they don't want them to quit in frustration. There aren't many people around for who World of Warcraft is too difficult, if anyone is not reaching the level cap it is due to not wanting to spend all that time, not due to not being skilled enough. Group play and raid play requires more skill, which is one reason why it is more popular with the more dedicated gamers. Pure skill-based MMORPGs probably wouldn't sell all that well, because they exclude the less skilled from advancing.
So if you have any ideas how to make MMORPGs more skill-based, please comment!
- posted by Tobold @ 9:15 AM Permanent Link
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I have a question that's been bothering me for awhile. Please don't flame, its a serious question asked without knowledge of the WoW EULA.
Can you trade gold ingame for a timecard? Since both are the property of Blizzard, I'm not sure how I'm cheating.
Unless you trade that for money with a friend (but who would want to do that), the only thing you can do with it would be to play WoW.
On the other hand, I'm fairly certain it IS breaking the EULA but I can't see how.
Can you trade gold ingame for a timecard? Since both are the property of Blizzard, I'm not sure how I'm cheating.
Unless you trade that for money with a friend (but who would want to do that), the only thing you can do with it would be to play WoW.
On the other hand, I'm fairly certain it IS breaking the EULA but I can't see how.
# posted by 
: 3/10/07 09:54
: 3/10/07 09:54
In traditional RPG's the rewards were experience, money and gear. As the exp isn't regarded as reward but as a necessary evil on the way to end game content, I feel the games are missing this possibility to grant some sort of skill gratification.
It's all nice and spiffy to have all the quest givers in groups, so you can get several quests at the same time and as you return them in sequence you get more of the same.
In the repetitive game, where the skill comes into play and how to reward that? There are no puzzles in the MMO's anymore to reward the thinking player, and the emphasis seems to be switching from exploration to exploitation. Or it has already done that, to be honest.
More skill based rewards, for example in form of instance performance or group play.
Copra
It's all nice and spiffy to have all the quest givers in groups, so you can get several quests at the same time and as you return them in sequence you get more of the same.
In the repetitive game, where the skill comes into play and how to reward that? There are no puzzles in the MMO's anymore to reward the thinking player, and the emphasis seems to be switching from exploration to exploitation. Or it has already done that, to be honest.
More skill based rewards, for example in form of instance performance or group play.
Copra
If there is one game that rewards skill quite well it is Guild Wars. I played it for a year and played semi hardcore. I had 5 toons at level can, all of them decently trained and equipped with my elementalist being a real twink.
After that I started playing WoW. I have been playing for nine months and do not play as often as I played GW. I have one lvl 70 which has decent gear, but nothing gr8 yet.
I love WoW the lore, profesions and world is a lot better, but I would love to be rewarded more for skill now, than being rewarded for running raids and instances over and over for drops.
After that I started playing WoW. I have been playing for nine months and do not play as often as I played GW. I have one lvl 70 which has decent gear, but nothing gr8 yet.
I love WoW the lore, profesions and world is a lot better, but I would love to be rewarded more for skill now, than being rewarded for running raids and instances over and over for drops.
# posted by : 3/10/07 10:40
: 3/10/07 10:40
Before anything...
The best reward shouldn't be to have fun and a nice time spent, possibly with friends or fellow gamers that could be potentially new friends?
What's better?
an uber sword as reward of many hours spent farming, getting bored and tired?
or having a decent sword but having fun and enjoying the game?
Developers should concentrate more on creating more and more nearly impossible to reach carrots that need boring and tedious tasks or should find new and fun things for us to do and enjoy a rich medium that a game is?
Where we want to go as players?
Because developers make games for us but we as players pay them and ultimately are who decide what is good or bad.
The best reward shouldn't be to have fun and a nice time spent, possibly with friends or fellow gamers that could be potentially new friends?
What's better?
an uber sword as reward of many hours spent farming, getting bored and tired?
or having a decent sword but having fun and enjoying the game?
Developers should concentrate more on creating more and more nearly impossible to reach carrots that need boring and tedious tasks or should find new and fun things for us to do and enjoy a rich medium that a game is?
Where we want to go as players?
Because developers make games for us but we as players pay them and ultimately are who decide what is good or bad.
"Did you know that you can buy 1,000 WoW gold directly from Blizzard for $40? It works like this:...."
You're really starting to sound like an RMT zealot.
You're really starting to sound like an RMT zealot.
# posted by : 3/10/07 11:31
: 3/10/07 11:31
"One of the constant criticisms leveled against most current MMORPGs is that they only reward time spent in game"
Isn't this the same for any activity? You won't win a golf championship if you only play a couple of hours on a Sunday now and again.
Put a lot of time into something and you would expect to get more out of it (financially or otherwise) than someone who is not willing to invest the time.
Like a lot of players, I have family and a job to go to every day; I don't cry that I don't have the time to join a serious raiding community - my priorities lie elsewhere.
Why begrudge someone who spends 10 hours a day playing WoW the rewards they get for that time commitment?
Isn't this the same for any activity? You won't win a golf championship if you only play a couple of hours on a Sunday now and again.
Put a lot of time into something and you would expect to get more out of it (financially or otherwise) than someone who is not willing to invest the time.
Like a lot of players, I have family and a job to go to every day; I don't cry that I don't have the time to join a serious raiding community - my priorities lie elsewhere.
Why begrudge someone who spends 10 hours a day playing WoW the rewards they get for that time commitment?
# posted by : 3/10/07 11:45
: 3/10/07 11:45
Don't forget the most important reward of all - knowledge. This was primarily true in EQ, where many of the dungeons were essentially confusing mazes, where you'd die countless times just trying to learn the overall layout. Lower Guk and Sol A/B are perfect examples of that.
# posted by : 3/10/07 12:00
: 3/10/07 12:00
Vlad said:"Isn't this the same for any activity? You won't win a golf championship if you only play a couple of hours on a Sunday now and again."
Yes and no: in golf you are training your skill to master the game, in WoW and most other MMORPG's only devoting your time to the repetitive part of the game to gain experience. In this aspect I agree with Tobold completely: there is no reward for skill in the game.
As a lower level WoW player the "fun and nice time spent with friends and possible new friends" Jack-O-Lantern suggests seems pretty far fetched as the Old World content is void of people, and the ones that are rushing through the content are old players powering their alts up to fill the guild needs. There is no real social connection anymore in the lower levels and when the 'new' player reaches the level cap, the guilds raiding are having fun and nice time with friends. In the worst case the result is as pictured in Wife Aggro post http://wifeagro.blogspot.com/2007/10/waiter-there-is-drama-in-my-guild.html
I fear -really and honestly- that I'm going to lose the excitement of exploring the content of WoW before reaching the level cap because of the lack of social contacts and group involvement. How many newcomers are put off by this fact?
If there was some system of rewarding skill or creativity in the game, it would make it more interesting for those who haven't been there from the beginning and who seek to excel in the game in other ways than just devoting their time to the grind.
Copra
Yes and no: in golf you are training your skill to master the game, in WoW and most other MMORPG's only devoting your time to the repetitive part of the game to gain experience. In this aspect I agree with Tobold completely: there is no reward for skill in the game.
As a lower level WoW player the "fun and nice time spent with friends and possible new friends" Jack-O-Lantern suggests seems pretty far fetched as the Old World content is void of people, and the ones that are rushing through the content are old players powering their alts up to fill the guild needs. There is no real social connection anymore in the lower levels and when the 'new' player reaches the level cap, the guilds raiding are having fun and nice time with friends. In the worst case the result is as pictured in Wife Aggro post http://wifeagro.blogspot.com/2007/10/waiter-there-is-drama-in-my-guild.html
I fear -really and honestly- that I'm going to lose the excitement of exploring the content of WoW before reaching the level cap because of the lack of social contacts and group involvement. How many newcomers are put off by this fact?
If there was some system of rewarding skill or creativity in the game, it would make it more interesting for those who haven't been there from the beginning and who seek to excel in the game in other ways than just devoting their time to the grind.
Copra
Yes, in skill-based activites you'd also be rewarded for time spent, learning how to play. But there is a limit based on your talent for that activity. You can't just stand on that golf course for a large number of hours and end up playing golf as good as Tiger Woods.
"Did you know that you can buy 1,000 WoW gold directly from Blizzard for $40? It works like this:...."
You're really starting to sound like an RMT zealot.
Zealot? In what sense? It was just an example how daily quests are equivalent of Blizzard giving you 12 gold per day, 1,000 gold per 3 month, which costs you $40. If anything that discourages RMT, because if you can get enough gold on your own, you don't need to buy from a gold farmer.
"Did you know that you can buy 1,000 WoW gold directly from Blizzard for $40? It works like this:...."
You're really starting to sound like an RMT zealot.
Zealot? In what sense? It was just an example how daily quests are equivalent of Blizzard giving you 12 gold per day, 1,000 gold per 3 month, which costs you $40. If anything that discourages RMT, because if you can get enough gold on your own, you don't need to buy from a gold farmer.
i think, what i would like is a system which rewards understanding of ingame minigames. there should be several to many, and i'd say fighting, healing, crafting are minigames already. but there should be more and they should be integrated in the flow of the game so that you dont recognize them as separate minigames on the first glance!
minigames have the advantages, that it is impossible or very difficult to provide full solutions to them in the web; instead it should be easy to learn the rules, but difficult to apply them optimally.
the performance in the minigames should of course be influenced by your characters statistics/attributes/skills/whatever.
minigames could be puzzles, strategic or luck-based games and so on, there are so many game-ideas around in boardgames and computergames.
ideas for how to integrate into storyline:
- standing with your gods (some minigame where you have to attune to them on a frequent basis)
- scientific understanding of things/the world to apply to your skills
- politics (like in vanguard)
- creating weapons (be it spells or physical weapons or technological)
- ...
maybe this is a bit on the abstract side of things, but i'm always more proud of things i can do because i know how than i'm proud of stuff, i just got sitting at my screen watching things happen with minimal interaction.
minigames have the advantages, that it is impossible or very difficult to provide full solutions to them in the web; instead it should be easy to learn the rules, but difficult to apply them optimally.
the performance in the minigames should of course be influenced by your characters statistics/attributes/skills/whatever.
minigames could be puzzles, strategic or luck-based games and so on, there are so many game-ideas around in boardgames and computergames.
ideas for how to integrate into storyline:
- standing with your gods (some minigame where you have to attune to them on a frequent basis)
- scientific understanding of things/the world to apply to your skills
- politics (like in vanguard)
- creating weapons (be it spells or physical weapons or technological)
- ...
maybe this is a bit on the abstract side of things, but i'm always more proud of things i can do because i know how than i'm proud of stuff, i just got sitting at my screen watching things happen with minimal interaction.
# posted by : 3/10/07 15:33
: 3/10/07 15:33
I'd be interested to know what people would define skill as? Is it the ability to push up-down-up-down-A-B-A-B? Is it mouse-clicking skill? Do we need to bust out the wii controller for our MMO?
I agree fully that some variety of gameplay, maybe some puzzle solving quests or whatever, would be a good thing. But I think we have to be very careful how we define 'skill' or we could end up with a game that really isn't what we started with.
It would be interesting to have certain gear trigger certain types of 'skill' based interactions. So for example the +5 Gloves of Targeted Smiting suddenly allow a new combat style where you aim your hits. To some degree this has already been done - certain attacks require, for example, that you recently evaded an attack. Simply ramping this up, but only for the people who want it, might be a solution.
I agree fully that some variety of gameplay, maybe some puzzle solving quests or whatever, would be a good thing. But I think we have to be very careful how we define 'skill' or we could end up with a game that really isn't what we started with.
It would be interesting to have certain gear trigger certain types of 'skill' based interactions. So for example the +5 Gloves of Targeted Smiting suddenly allow a new combat style where you aim your hits. To some degree this has already been done - certain attacks require, for example, that you recently evaded an attack. Simply ramping this up, but only for the people who want it, might be a solution.
I'd be interested to know what people would define skill as? Is it the ability to push up-down-up-down-A-B-A-B? Is it mouse-clicking skill? Do we need to bust out the wii controller for our MMO?
Those are more examples of the current skill-free MMO gameplay. :)
In the narrow context of MMO combat I would consider skill-based gameplay to be one in which you have to observe what your enemies are doing and react accordingly, requiring some sort of tactical thinking. If you always make the same moves in chess, you lose. If you always press up-down-up-down-A-B-A-B in a MMO combat you win, because your opponent never does anything invalidating your up-down-up-down-A-B-A-B tactic.
Those are more examples of the current skill-free MMO gameplay. :)
In the narrow context of MMO combat I would consider skill-based gameplay to be one in which you have to observe what your enemies are doing and react accordingly, requiring some sort of tactical thinking. If you always make the same moves in chess, you lose. If you always press up-down-up-down-A-B-A-B in a MMO combat you win, because your opponent never does anything invalidating your up-down-up-down-A-B-A-B tactic.
Reward skill by making the game more realistic, in that:
Failure is rewarded by an increase in avatar skills/abilities (we tend to learn by seeing what doesn't work, except in RPGs).
Success is rewarded with material profit (gold, or items, etc.).
This simple system can provide an incentive for pushing yourself and your group to the limits of your skill without modifying the mechanics of the game system much at all (some people don't want your FPS in my MMO).
Failure is rewarded by an increase in avatar skills/abilities (we tend to learn by seeing what doesn't work, except in RPGs).
Success is rewarded with material profit (gold, or items, etc.).
This simple system can provide an incentive for pushing yourself and your group to the limits of your skill without modifying the mechanics of the game system much at all (some people don't want your FPS in my MMO).
You are assuming here that time in = money spent and that time is not the measuring stick for all matters of success. Consider two people (Person A and D), person D failed out and dropped out of school for various reasons (will consider this a person with less skill) and person A graduated with an MBA. Both person A and D hold respectful jobs but Person A makes a greater amount than B requireing him to work less time to earn equivalent amount. I'd say this carries over into MMORPGs, someone who is skilled, whether it be in PvP, PvE, Farming or whatelse someone wants to excel in can complete these tasks in a quicker time. I think it is a mistake to say that someone must be rewarded for skill by the game maker, as that will be what everyone works to complete removing all the 'skill' required with guides and intense walkthroughs. On another point, what would you be able to quantify or measure 'skill' with as you have already pointed out yourself, you can't use the same system for all aspects of the game.
MMOs are not the place for real skill-based rewards due to their business model.
If you play a game and are good at it, you win. Highly skilled players win quickly, and win often. So what do you do when you run out of challenges? Unless the game is competitive (which most MMOs are not), you stop playing because you've won. When your business model is subscription based, what's the point of continuing to play if you win?
"Well, that's easy. Make the game competitive, and the various skill levels of players will keep playing"
While this is true, you have to keep rewarding everyone, or the lesser skilled players will stop playing. It isn't fun to keep playing, and never get any rewards at all. I certainly wouldn't keep paying money to play a game that I can't win or improve myself.
You can't build a MMOG based on skill alone simply because it changes too much, and increasing in skill level is more difficult than increasing in gear level, or character level, or whatever. The moment you start tempering the skill requirements with other things (time spent, gear level obtained, etc.), the skill factor gets drowned out and players complain that the game takes no skill.
If you play a game and are good at it, you win. Highly skilled players win quickly, and win often. So what do you do when you run out of challenges? Unless the game is competitive (which most MMOs are not), you stop playing because you've won. When your business model is subscription based, what's the point of continuing to play if you win?
"Well, that's easy. Make the game competitive, and the various skill levels of players will keep playing"
While this is true, you have to keep rewarding everyone, or the lesser skilled players will stop playing. It isn't fun to keep playing, and never get any rewards at all. I certainly wouldn't keep paying money to play a game that I can't win or improve myself.
You can't build a MMOG based on skill alone simply because it changes too much, and increasing in skill level is more difficult than increasing in gear level, or character level, or whatever. The moment you start tempering the skill requirements with other things (time spent, gear level obtained, etc.), the skill factor gets drowned out and players complain that the game takes no skill.
# posted by : 3/10/07 22:54
: 3/10/07 22:54
First off, to "anonymous" (catchy nick, btw...I like it!)...I believe that's against the WoW EULA, but it varies from company to company. For example, EVE Online allows you to buy game time cards with ingame money, and actually has a mechanism in place to allow you to do so with limited risk of being ripped off.
As to the main topic here, what I have completely failed to grasp is why it has to be all or nothing. I wrote up an example the other day on my blog while griping about a new MMO coming out that touts the fact that it's "all about getting rich, killing the most things, etc, etc"...why not have an MMO with "casual" mini-games that give items needed to PvP? Create a little synergy between the "Peggle" crowd and the "133t hax0r" PvP group?
I believe you can appeal to both the "I gotta be uber" crowd and the "I just want to play around for a while" crowd at the same time, but it will take a completely different way of looking at game design for MMORPG's.
As to the main topic here, what I have completely failed to grasp is why it has to be all or nothing. I wrote up an example the other day on my blog while griping about a new MMO coming out that touts the fact that it's "all about getting rich, killing the most things, etc, etc"...why not have an MMO with "casual" mini-games that give items needed to PvP? Create a little synergy between the "Peggle" crowd and the "133t hax0r" PvP group?
I believe you can appeal to both the "I gotta be uber" crowd and the "I just want to play around for a while" crowd at the same time, but it will take a completely different way of looking at game design for MMORPG's.
Guild Wars does this pretty well. Its biggest flaw however is that for the most part the game is instanced in just about any way you play it.
If they could implement a game like guildwars in a permanant world space, and keep it fresh (updates, new skills, addons (dungeons, items, gear, skills, synergy) then I think they can accomplish what MANY ppl want from their mmorgps.
Some games to keep an eye out for are project offset (has a "leaked" video of its gameplay) or one game that has been lingering in the background while supposedly awaiting its grand entrance in the the MMO sphere is Dark and Light.
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If they could implement a game like guildwars in a permanant world space, and keep it fresh (updates, new skills, addons (dungeons, items, gear, skills, synergy) then I think they can accomplish what MANY ppl want from their mmorgps.
Some games to keep an eye out for are project offset (has a "leaked" video of its gameplay) or one game that has been lingering in the background while supposedly awaiting its grand entrance in the the MMO sphere is Dark and Light.
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