I'm still having trouble understanding why this topic gets so much attention. Skill based system, level based system, foogle collecting system...it's all the same. To quote Zoolander, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

If the game tracks my progress against others as levels, or as skill points, or as any other unit of measure, it's still just a level. Calling it something else won't change a thing.

People who argue against levels are arguing against game progress IMO. The only way to get rid of levels is to give everyone the same abilities and access to the game from the start. Then you would quit after exploring, or mastering your button clicks. You can't even upgrade your items. If you did, you'd be leveling again and just calling it a sword...
 

We're not arguing against progress, far from it. Skill points gives you more flexibility to create the character you want. Getting rid of levels also keeps content valid.

I travel for work, I have "adventures" in those places. But when I come home, home is still a valid place to adventure as well, and celebrate those adventures. In level-based MMO's you'll never go "home" again because there's nothing to do, the mobs are grey, the quests (if there are any left) won't give xp... it's useless and invalid to you now.

Levels also make it difficult to adventure with friends because some of your group may start out-leveling the rest. CoX and EQ2 took measures to work with it but it's just not the same.

Unfortunately, levels are easy to design and balance, as well as easy to understand (not that skills-based systems are difficult either) so that's what most people have experience with, and most of those people are unable to get their minds out of that tiny little "levels" box because there's not much out there to get a basis for comparison to.
 

Just to completely confuse you Tobold in Saga of Ryzom character advancement is based on skill points. In Guild Wars character advancement is based on skills and in Counterstrike advancement is based on skill.

Now I'm confused - Lets all just play Progress Quest. Problem solved.
 

is it me or Tobold's blog is becoming a little boring. I have been reading it for a a while and the topics seem to get more and more irrelevant. Sorry if i sound like a jerk, but I like this blog and it has not been fun read lately.
 

Well skill points, unless I misunderstand "could" have a direct correlation to skill, since the player is chosing where those points go, right? I suppose that would depend on game design. Perhaps any skill points are valid options and only offer a different playstyle not a better one in one game, but perhaps some games are/could be designed where your choice in how you use skill points actually affect your character in etiher a positive or not so positive way. That decision would be based on player skill.
 

What do you think they are going to do about bottin in the game. A few botting sites have showed up much like glider. WOWGlider still owns world of warcraft and people can bot for free. A new site called www.mmoviper.com just came out and frankly i see LOTRO taking a turn for the worse now.
 

is it me or Tobold's blog is becoming a little boring. I have been reading it for a a while and the topics seem to get more and more irrelevant.

I couldn't disagree more. For me, it's just the other way around :)



If the game tracks my progress against others as levels, or as skill points, or as any other unit of measure, it's still just a level.

Exactly. When theorizing on how to make a non-playerbase-separating MMORPG system, the discussion of levels (or skillpoints, or gear and so on) is irrelevant.
What's relevant to discuss is what avatar 'advancement' actually translate to in terms of the game mechanics. Does advancement translate to better stats, cosmetic (superfluous) rewards, new tactically options, other ways to play the game, or ...?
At the core, the inner workings of the game mechanics decide what precisely levels/skillpoints/gear symbolize.

IMO, to create non-playerbase-separating MMORPG game mechanics, developers HAS to move away from pure abstract, turn-based combat mechanics towards more twitchy, reflex-based mechanics.
If the player gets direct control over his avatars doings - and thereby emphasizing personal skills - statistical advancement begins to have less effect.

In traditional turn-based MMORPG mechanics a lvl 1 magic missile is just as easy to use as a lvl 100 magic missile.
What if the übermissile is 100 times harder to aim and time right? I get the satisfaction of game mechanical 'advancement' in terms of a potentially more powerful attack. But depending on the tactical situation (or me as player lacking skills), I might be far better off just firing the lvl 1 version.
(In a FPS this would translate to everyone starting out with a pistol - easy to handle, but not very lethal. Everyone would want to level up and unlock the one-shotting sniper rifle, but few would have the skills to use it for its full potential - and they'll be just as vulnerable using it, if not more!)
If game mechanical advancement does nothing else but empowering the player with new possibilities, everyone can contribute to a fight (in principle) - only the lvl 100 mage is POTENTIALLY more deadly in the right tactically circumstances, IF controlled by a skilled player...
 

I think skill and effort are used a lil bit too synonmously in todays MMO games. If anything, skill and effort need to be adjusted so that the more skill a player has (higher lvl thinking (reactionary), not "twitchy" (actionary)skills) the less effort they should need to progress.

And by progress I mean reach the endgoal of the game. You can progress without changing stats, call it 1 big long quest if you want.

One problem I notice with MMO's that have any sort of competitive gameplay is players gain momentum or stat advantages for their "effort" but not necesarrily their skill. Take for example arena's on WoW, and the gladiator gear. What if for example, a player could achieve the gladiator gear by accomplishing teh same match only faster/better/with more points or w/e. It could be more than i PWNed you, rather I pwned you with these stats/factors against me type of arena.

What is too bad, is devs dont break the mold and incorporate concepts taht havent already been proven succesful, WoW has been vanilla MMO for quite a while and the improvements it does add are like new air fresheners in a old car, Vanilla scented. Balance in competitive games is not an easy subject to speak with expertise about, but considering the ammount of self-proclaimed experts on forums about WoW balance its hard to believe there couldnt be just even a handleful of players who know what they are talking about with it comes to nerf/boosts.