Tobold's Blog
Monday, November 26, 2007
 
When the class role doesn't match solo play

We touched the subject a couple of times in the past, but I thought I'd write a more detailed piece on the difference between group combat and solo combat, and why this affects different classes in different ways. I'll use World of Warcraft as an example, but in many ways the same is true for all games that use the same type of holy trinity tank-healer-dps group combat.

So how does group combat in WoW work? We take a typical group with one tank, one healer, and three dps classes. If that group fights several mobs at once, we assume that the extra mobs are under some sort of crowd control, sheeped, banished, sapped, trapped in ice etc., so we can reduce our discussion to the fight of the group against one single mob. We start with the tank who hits that one mob. In spite of possibly wielding some impressive looking sword, the damage the tank does is not very important. The most important function of the tank is to create aggro or hate, a numerical value which the AI mob uses to determine who to hit. Ideally the tank is always on top of that aggro list, and the monster thus always hits the tank, who by wearing the best armor and having defensive capabilities mitigates that damage down to the lowest possible value. The damage the tank does adds aggro, but he creates far more of it by using abilities like taunt, sunder, devastate, or thunder clap. It is important that the tank keeps the aggro, because his combined block and parry abilities, plus armor and defense rating is reducing the incoming damage by over half. If the same mob hit a mage or priest instead, the incoming damage to the group would be twice as high, and as an added problem the damage could interrupt their spells.

So now we have the tank mano-a-mano with the mob and both of their health points are going down. Unfortunately, as we are in a group encounter and the mob is an elite one, the health of the tank goes down faster than the health of the mob. So now we add the second component, the healer. The healer heals the tank with a mix of direct heals and heals over time. These heals create aggro too, but as long as the healer takes care not to overheal, he should be able to create less aggro than the tank, who is still spamming all his aggro-creating abilities like crazy.

So now the health of the tank remains up, as he is constantly being healed, and the health of the mob is going down, as the tank hits him. The mob remains glued to the tank, because the tank produces more aggro than the healer. This could go on for quite a while, until either the mob finally dies, or the healer runs out of mana. So now we need to get the health of the mob down faster, which is where the dps classes come in. Their role is to do most of the damage, in a constant stream, but not necessarily as fast as they can. Any single dps character can not do more damage than would be needed to top the tank on the aggro list, because then the tank would lose control of the mob. If for example a mage lands several crits, his aggro value for that mob grows too high, and the mob goes after the mage, who can't withstand the mob's damage as well as the tank can. But provided the dps classes can avoid that, their combined damage output is now leading to a fast fall in the mob's health, until the mob dies and the group wins.

Now lets say this mob was the final boss of the dungeon, the group divides the loot and splits apart, and each of them goes for some solo PvE, either doing some quests or farming some monsters for xp, gold, or reputation. The very term "farming" or "grinding" suggests that this is less interesting, more boring that group play. Why is that so? Because, on average, farming solo is much, much safer than playing in a group. In most cases you chose the place for farming in a way that your chance to die is very small to non-existant. While in the fight of the group against the boss mob the basic question was who would win, in farming the basic question becomes how fast can you win. In group fights, for example with the damage output of the dps classes we mentioned, it is often preferable to sacrifice speed for safety. Your group can take harder monsters by playing it slow and safe, giving the tank a few extra seconds to gain aggro before the others attack the mob, or by the dps classes limiting their damage with the help of a threat meter to avoid pulling aggro away from the tank. In solo fights being slow is a disadvantage. You are already sure that you are going to win. The only question is how many of these mobs can you kill in one hour, to maximize the gold, xp, or reputation gain.

So now our dps classes from the group are in solo PvE grinding, and they do exactly what they did in the group fight: deal damage. Only without having to watch an upper limit, because now the faster they deal the damage the better. Whatever talents or gear they have that helped them deal good damage per second in a group will also help them grind most efficiently.

The tank from the group isn't so lucky in solo PvE grinding. If he is still using the same tank gear and tank talent build that he had in the group, he can deal only slightly more damage than in the group fight, by changing to a more aggressive stance and using his rage for damage abilities instead of abilities that draw aggro. He still mitigates half of the damage with his armor, but that doesn't help him much, because he also deals a lot less damage than a dps class and thus the fights last twice as long. Per hour he simply kills less mobs than a dps class, because he deals less damage per second, otherwise they wouldn't be called dps classes. He can increase his damage output by changing his gear and/or his talent build. But it will never be quite as good as the best dps dealing class. And of course it would require him to collect several sets of gear, and to pay respec costs, which all adds up to a lot of cost and effort that a dps class doesn't have.

The healer has exactly the same problem. He deals enough damage to kill the same grinding mobs without problems, but slower than the dps classes. He doesn't die, because he can heal himself, but every single fight takes a bit longer than the one of a dps class, and at the end of the hour he has gained less xp, gold, or reputation. Again he can collect a second set of gear or spec differently for soloing, which again has a cost that the dps classes don't suffer. Or in summary: the class role of the tank and healer in a group is at cross purposes with the goals of solo PvE combat, while for the dps classes the two purposes align much better. Of course even a dps class might have some differences in the "perfect" talent build or gear for group play and solo play, but in general the differences will not be so large, and it is easy to find some compromise which works well for both.

Saying that a specialized tank or healer, in WoW terms lets say a protection spec'd tank or a holy spec'd priest, can't solo is clearly wrong. They can solo, and in many cases they can even do the same level of quests and kill the same level of mobs that a dps class can. But this comes at the cost of speed, if they stick to their protection or holy build and gear, they will level / get rich / gain reputation much slower than the other classes. Somebody who has played several classes will be very much aware of the difference, and leveling up slower is feeling less fun for most people.

This has several bad consequences. One is that healers and tanks are the least popular classes to play. But as every group needs at least one healer and one tank, they become the bottleneck for group formation. In my 3 years of WoW I'm sure that over 90% of the looking for group shouts I heard on various chat channels, including guild chat, were either looking specifically for a tank, a healer, or both. There are very few times when a group has a tank and a healer and has problems filling the other three spots.

The other bad consequence is that people who are aware that tanks and healers are needed for groups and decide to play one don't want to actually level him as such. They will make shadow priests, fury warriors, retribution paladins, etc. to level up to the level cap as fast as possible. That makes them of not so much use for groups in the lower levels, and they miss out on opportunities to already learn how to perform their class role at the lower levels. Level 70 is late for a warrior to learn how to taunt. And even at level 70 they often find that they prefer to stick to the more damage-dealing role, as it is better for soloing and for PvP. Which still doesn't help the other players looking for a tank or healer.

When Blizzard recently added damage bonus to healing gear, they clearly intended to fix this cross purpose between solo role and group role for healers. Warhammer Online stresses how each of their classes is good at dealing damage, even the tanks and the healers. Ideally a game would have many different classes which all kill mobs in solo combat at the same speed. And each class would have a specific role in group combat, like tanking, healing, crowd control or special effects which were all equally useful but different. Damage dealing shouldn't be a speciality, it should be a common base value. After all, when the typical looking for group shout goes out for "a tank, a healer, and 2 randoms", it can't really be considered a compliment to have one's class listed under "random".
Comments:
I think another issue with the way pve grinding is in wow is the terrible risk vs. reward for outdoor mobs. Or rather, the terrible reward for riskier encounters. Tank classes can solo mobs that many dps classes could not (Farahlon (sp?) Giants in Netherstorm, for instance) but there's no point as the loot is no better than killing a regular non-elite mob in 1/4 of the time.

If Blizzard attached a real loot value to mobs like these tank classes could be specialist grinders. Make them immune to roots, snares, and fears so dps classes can't solo them at all and then up the loot significantly. Either tanks can solo them and make good money, or small groups will form to farm them. "Rogue lf tank for giant farming" could be the new pve farming refrain. A dps + healer would have the same result.

I really don't understand why it isn't this way already. Going to all the trouble of killing a level 68-70 outdoor elite and being rewarded with 5-10s worth of loot is nothing short of idiotic. Go farm blood elves and make 10 times as much in the long run.
 
Yup. I'm with you on this one, Tobold.

Do away with the DPS-class concept, and make all classes more or less equal on this matter (at least towards solo content).

Such change in mechanics would put much more focus on tactical differences in combat. Everyone would be able to participate in taking down an enemy, but each class would augment the group in different ways and bring different tactical abilities to the fight.

On the downside, it would make the available classes in a game much more similiar to play when soloing. The difference in 'flavor' or 'style' of each class might become very subtle, if developers fail to make class abilities unique and significant.

...or just avoid all this, and make custom-made solo content for non-DPS classes :)
 
This is silly. Why would a tank wear his prot gear to solo farm? Why would a healer wear his healing gear?

Why not get a farming friend if you insist that your class/spec is "unable to farm" anyway?

I think the whole premise fails on those assumptions. Maybe these things DO happen out there in the field but I wouldn't nominate those players for any awards. I'm even gonna suggest that their their gear/experience/reps/success reflects their lack of judgment if they're farming in the worst possible gear choices.
 
I think you're missing the point of the post's subject, wyldbill...

A character is defined by much more than just gear. There's talent spec, class abilities and modifiers, and so on...
 
wyldbill even if you swap out your gear their is no parity. I leveled a resto druid as resto spec because when I started out it was the only real spec worth playing. But I rapidly discovered that even though all my friends and guildies expected me to help them do thier elite quests an hard stuff. When I asked for a little help grinding, I was informed that they didn't like to grind with other people it wasn't efficient.

the fact is a DPS class geared out can still grind 2X better than a tank or healer in thier offspec DPS gear.

Not saying they can't grind but it is slower. And frustrating as hell. enough frustration means player quits playing or rerolls a dps class and makes the problem worse.

Before I stopped playing I got to the point I gave people one or two chances. If I helped them and they didn't help me out when I asked they went on the black list and never ran with me again. guildie or not. The sad thing is I wouldn't run with 1/2 the people I knew in game and I could always find a group.
 
The problem here is that damage dealing is a role, and as long as it remains a role, the other roles cannot be made to compete with that role. The most common argument is that "if this class could do damage and tank/heal, then nobody would roll a 'pure' damage class!".

The clearest way to fix this 'problem' is to reduce the importance of damage dealing as a role, and instead have other roles instead. For example, imagine a wow rogue-style class (let's call it a monk) that has a constantly refilling energy bar and earning combo points. However, rather than spending combo points to only deal damage, the monk unleashes the combo points to provide the group with vampiric healing (or mana restoration) equivalent to the damage dealt. The monk would be a damage dealer in a group, but would also provide the healing while doing so.

A tanking type would be more similar to a porcupine or hedgehog. Similar to how a protection paladin works now, except moreso. I really liked how Warhammer's taunt system works - the Taunt is actually a debuff that reduces damage the enemy deals to anyone but the tank. Furthermore, you can make the tank deal damage based on damage taken and absorbed; the more damage he takes, the more he deals. Healing would actually (somewhat) diminish his damage capacity, but that's still another aspect of gameplay to balance and consider.

Finally, you take the existing damage classes and you ascribe real roles to them. The wow hunter, for example, has the beginnings of this now. Misdirection allows them to help control threat. Make this their primary role in the group, without diminishing their damage, by allowing them to control threat. Misdirection to place threat they deal on someone of their choice. Subterfuge to help disperse threat others generate.

The only way to make damage over time less of a factor when soloing is by making it less of a factor in groups.

--Rawr
 
I think your suggestion for a game where every class is a damage dealer plus one other role is an excellent one.

However I don't agree with your regular assertion that the solo game is always easy. The solo game can be as hard as you want to make it. I quite enjoy pushing my character to the limit - taking on higher level mobs or elites.

Yes Graktar is right that the rewards for doing this (other than personal satisfaction) don't justify the effort but I still think it is a valid and enjoyable way to play the game.

And by the way in Lotro too Guardians (Tanks) and Minstrels (Healers) have a much easier time soloing elites than DPS classes.
 
Small nitpick that really isn't on the point of this post but I'll post anyway. Overheal does not count towards healer aggro.
 
This is silly. Why would a tank wear his prot gear to solo farm? Why would a healer wear his healing gear?

You are losing time either way. Either you solo farm in the protection gear you already collected, or you spend time getting a second set of damage gear together to farm slightly more efficiently in the long run. But compared to a dps class who doesn't have to change gear, you always lose.
 
Arguably, one of the biggest issues WoW has is that it's attempting to be 4 games at the same time - PvP, solo PvE, small-instance PvE, raid PvE. That's certainly at the root of the issues here.

So the other option, of course, is to eliminate the solo-play game.

I'm not saying that's a good idea, just that it's another way to look at the problem.

I say this partially because I've never not enjoyed levelling my Prot Warrior - because I've always been levelling as part of a 3-man group. I've never really played him solo, and as such I think I've had a *very* different experience of the game from other prot warriors.

There are obvious problems with a co-op only game, of course, but it *does* solve the problems we discuss here...
 
I think there is some truth to the consensus that tanking and healing classes are at a disadvantage during solo play because they can't kill as fast as DPS-centric classes and are thus deemed less efficient. That there are alternate character advancement avenues available to these classes that emphasize damage-dealing does seem like an implicit admission that the only way to approach the soloing efficiency of a DPS character is to eschew their main role.

In classic WoW, sticking to the healer or tank roles seemed easier, as there were often groups to be had at most level ranges. But as the game grows older, as the level cap rises, and the influx of new players slows down, it appears that more and more solo play is in these classes' future (at least as they race to the cap).

Which brings us to the dilemma of ensuring that players who choose to play tanks and healers stick to their classes' raison d'etre throughout leveling instead of choosing the DPS route afforded them by their classes' talent trees. As Tobold remarked, "70 is late for a warrior to learn how to taunt;" tanks and healers preferably should have grown into their roles instead of just learning the ropes at the cap.

The solution? What about having tanks' and healers' DPS dynamically normalized to the level of pure-DPS classes when they solo, and having it revert to the regular, less efficient level when they are performing their group responsibilities? Granted this has several drawbacks. A change such as this might mean having to retool the talent trees of affected classes, since in this scheme the DPS trees would need to be boosted less than the other trees. If we also assume that as the game matures all players not yet at the level cap will have to solo more than group then a temporary soloing buff to healers and tanks DPS output will not be perceived as such by players who will just have started WoW; instead they would ask "Why am I being nerfed while I'm in a group?"

There are probably other, more extreme consequences to DPS normalization that I have overlooked. But the "What if"s of such an overhaul is certainly interesting to contemplate.

-Svartalve
 
Hmm, an interesting post but I have the feeling that a lot of people (Hugh's post is on the money I bet) are overlooking a really important point:

Why is there solo content in this game at all?

This is an MMO, it's supposed to be about group play. The Healer, the Tank and the Mage all work as intended when in a group, but don't when they're playing solo.

Previous MMO's I've played have all stressed this - WoW is the first one I've played that caters to the Solo player and then to the Group player.

An easy solution to all this is to increase the damage taken and/or reduce armour for DPS classes, forcing them to heal more often either through potions or food/water.
 
This is why pve, pvp, and raiding don't mix and never will. It's also why I seriously doubt that Blizzard's next mmorpg will use talents as they currently exist.
 
There are many ways to address this.

For example synergetic stats (see the healer gear change). Indeed blizz has synergetic stats already. Agi for example, serves both offensive and defensive purposes (depending on class).

But with their gear they have moved heavily way from this synergy (I guess because those synergy stats like agi totally dominated some classes). But the result is that the prot warrior doesn't really get that much benefit from being crit capped against 73 when soloing normal lvl 70 mobs.

The other thing is spec. Blizz really could have removed the respec barrier but they like it. I think it's a bummer actually because it does get in the way of things. Often finding say a tank for a group is just a respec away, but because it costs it doesn't happen.

So in some sense the door swings both ways. Solo-ability (or PVP abilty) gets in the way of grouping.

It's kind of funny that the death knight is advertised as a damage dealing tank.
 
Even though there's one particular tank class that is not so much affected by this as most of their feral talents are good for both purposes, the rest remain a bit harder to play in both contexts.

As mentioned above, the main problem is that WoW is too many things. I don't enjoy PvP, and certainly don't enjoy those famous "nerfs" that are PvP oriented but also affect PvE.

There are certainly others out there that play mostly PvP and don't enjoy some stuff that is there mostly for PvE (what good is taunt on PvP?)...

I think that the current scheme CAN work, as long as Blizzard keeps doing some changes. The recent healer changes are a good step in the way, but they can make it much better and make it work for more classes...

In my view, there could be a couple not-so-hard-to-do steps towards that goal:

1) Make gear Talent dependent;
2) Allow for free Re-talenting.
2b) Even allow for different sets of keys/macros on your bars for two different talent specs.

1 - Would help if, depending on talents, one's gear was more heavy on Defense (tanking purpose) or Strength (dps purpose). (Heal/Spell Damage for healers).

This way one set of gear would serve for both purposes here (solo/group PvE).

2 - Allow for a couple re-talents per day or for any char to have two different talent specs that he could switch to and add some rules for when/how many times he could do so, as long as he could do it at least two or three times a day to switch between solo/group play. Heck, even a 1H cooldown wouldn't harm anyone and would allow for a much better experience for everyone...

2b - Would allow 1 and 2 to work better by not having to constantly redesign your layout...

These changes, which although not *easy* aren't *that* hard to implement, would benefit most if not all the classes. Even DPS classes can have their changes for solo/group PvE.
 
This observation is true, the lack of healers/tanks in the game compared to dps classes is a major problem. Finding groups can be a nightmare when you are constantly looking for either tank or healer. Even guild recruiting for raids tend to fill out dps classes immediately and stall on finding healing and tanking.

The funny thing is the way things go, there will soon be lack of "pure" tank/healing classes (prot warrior and holy priest) but a proliferation of hybrid tank/healing classes (druids and pallies of any spec). I levelled a priest for end game healing and end up having to give up raiding due to RL demands however as I was gearing up the priest I found it a pain to solo quest/grind for money/mats. Getting DPS gear is not easy either, when you run a dungeon or raid, you're not going to roll against a mage or lock for dps gear especially when you are the healer, you can be mean about it and roll anyway - but given the otherside of the coin and they roll against your healing gear (because now it provides damage too) you'd be angry too if that happened to you.

So for a healing class (especially a Holy Priest) the guild welcomes you to heal for them, constantly wanting you to go to Kara, or run attunement, other dungeons for gearing up. But when it comes to getting help for questing/grinding guildmates will either say "You can solo that quest" or provide some half hearted attempt to grind help you for like 10-20mins before some excuse to leave.

Personally I don't blame them, it was just a pain to do anything as a holy priest (even now I find myself with ~500 +damage) - either farming mats for craftables, or farming money to get the mats from craftable is is a really pain, especially if you have a DPS alt that you can play and compare the difference in kill time. Unfortunately, my toons are different servers to each other and different factions so the pain can be lessen if you do have a "farming" alt to feed your poor Holy Priest.

As for a solution, don't think anything can be done to change the mechanics. An evolution change will probably resolve the problem - Prot Warriors and especially Holy Priests are a dying breed. In time druid tanks will be the norm, and healing paladins will fulfill the healing role...oh wait..it's happened already!
 
1. Skill based system would fix this or a freeform character development system that allows players to min/max.

2. Change PVE so its no longer a sporting event relying on holy trinity

3. Try to add custom PVE content for each Class so they can all level up the best way they can just as fast. For instance, give Priests a special power to counter special type of mobs sensitive to holy dmg

All solutions are for new RPGs not for WoW btw
 
On a side note, I've predicted here that I think Star Trek Online (evil tribbles online) is going to suck, and this bit of news only reaffirms my opinion that another great IP is about to be wasted.

http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/50065
 
I like the concept of a base damage ability. Obviously it can be changed with modifiers such as strength, agility and weapon stats... but the concept is sound.

It is when you give every class a base function to sit along side the base damage. A role to bring to the table, and make this this the weakest link in the chain.

I know it would have helped prevent burn out when I was a proc spec warrior trying to grind 5k for an epic mount whilst trying to get attuned for Kara and all the keys.

The warrior role is essential to the success of game progression of all classes yet the warrior has to slog it out to a point of depression sometimes.

Just thinking out aloud for a base function in terms of Warcraft.

Warrior - Aggro Sponge
Priest - Healer
Paladin - Healer and Buffs
Shaman - Buffs, Curses and off Healer
Warlock - Curses and CC and say 20% DPS increase
Rogue - CC and say 20% DPS increase
Mage - CC and say 20% DPS increase
Hunter - Secondary Pet Aggro Sponge
Druid - Secondary tank and Healer

Give all the above a base damage output and then give them roles that are essential to the success of group encounters.

I, repeat, just thinking out aloud. But the stractics of dungeon encounters could be written to be more dependant on the skills inherent to a class instead of variations of 'tank'n'spank'.

Dungeons and encounters should be written to accomadate a variation of groups.

Tobald, what you have pointed out... is that the current game mechanics are very static and not as dynamic or as forgiving for some roles.

Maybe WoW 3.0 or possibly 4.0 might address this. Perhaps some other MMO might lead the way.

I liked WoW but my level 70 Proc spec warrior didn't.
 
@ crucifer
Why is there solo content in this game at all?

To ensure you have 8 million plus players.

I have no interest in grouping 100% of the time. Forgive me, but ~70% of the folk you meet online are not going to be to your liking.

Why would I waste time searching for groups to play with when I have limited game time. Can you imagine - "LFG, I need some Rugged Leather". You help them expecting some help in return, for them to promptly foxtrot oscar.

So yeah, solo spec is essential to players like me. Make it group based, and I wouldn't have even signed up in the first place.
 
Why would I waste time searching for groups to play with when I have limited game time.

You do realise that before WoW, social interaction was actually strengthened by fewer players, not diminished - right?

I agree though that Solo Content is definitely what Blizzard were after :/
 
This problem stems from the fact that Blizzard also tries to balance PvP at the same time it's balancing PvE. Now, which would you play: A class that can do X dps or a class that X-Y DPS and takes 50% less damage than the first class? Or even a class that does X damage, takes 30% less damage and can heal itself?
 
The proc warrior brings nothing to the PvP game whilst in a group or BG in my opinion.

We bring less DPS with some damage mitigation and yet we cant heal ourselves.

I don't understand why aggro control can't be brought in for PVP?

Taunt, why can't it be used to ensure the targeted player can't focus on anyone but the taunter for a few seconds?

Let a proc warrior do what a proc warrior does on a BG.

Surely that would add some value to the class with respect to lack of DPS.
 
@ Cricifer

I understand, and see how the appeal works for some folk.

It just doesn't do it for me. Paying a monthly sub means I want more from the game... and that means going it alone when I feel like it.

I would feel robbed if I couldn't.

I think any succesful MMO from now on has to add that level of solo content and play mechanics.

But I'm going off topic, perhaps the Guru Tobald could start a discussion on the merits of solo content Vs group play with respect to the content and storyline of the game as well as the requirements of the paying user base.
 
I feel this is a non-issue, in spite of all the tears/rants over it.

For healers, the problem was recently solved with the 1/3 healing->dmg addition. Or at least much mitigated.

Regarding tanks, the problem doesn't exist for Druids and is much mitigated for Warriors by using correct gear post 70 and gear+a hybrid spec pre-70 (anyone who thinks you must have a full prot tank for 5man instances pre-70 is lying/selling something/on drugs). The problem will disappear completely with the release of WotLK where the new Death Knight hero class will be a tank that can DPS.

Last but not least, any player who has a pure tank or healer and wants to grind/farm more easily can roll a DPS alt and level her to use for grinding/farming. Doesn't provide a perfect answer (you'll miss out on some factions) but help a lot.

If you're looking for perfect answers, a perfect game or a perfect world you're going to be disappointed. None of these exist, let's make the most of what does. And for all the "Warhammer Online is da best!" fans all I can say is, wait and see. Don't believe it till it's been released and out of beta...

Cheers,
Solid
 
So you suggest a respec everytime you want to go heroic or kara?

Then dump your warrior for some other lover with 3.0.

And also find the time to roll another toon to 70 that wouldn't be able to grind rep for your tank anyway.

IMHO the hero class won't out tank a correctly specced proc warrior anyway. That would be wrong if it does.
 
@ solidstate

Last but not least, any player who has a pure DPSer and wants to do more instances more easily can roll a Tank/Healer alt and level her to use for group instances. Doesn't provide a perfect answer (you'll miss out on some factions) but helps a lot.
 
@anonymous above me
I lolled at your answer, it's spot on, well done.

A sad prot warrior.
 
I have just two characters: a protection-specced warrior, and an affliction-specced warlock. I guess you could say they are on the opposite ends of the spectrum with regards to solo efficiency. One of my addons tracks gold/hour, and I've found that I surprisingly make about the same amount when farming.
This seems to contradict Tobold's assumption. I've given this some thought, and I've found that there are two variables missing from Tobold's argument. His initial argument says dps kills faster than tanks or healers (we'll call them support). That is true. However, rewards/hour would only increase in a linear fashion if there were infinite mobs lined up for killing one after another. There are really 4 variable to consider:

1. killing a mob takes w seconds
2. downtime to replenish hp/mana takes x seconds
3. finding a similar mob in the farmin area takes y seconds
4. waiting for mobs to replenish the area takes z seconds

Looking af a typical farming area with about 10 mobs nearby...

Let's say I kill a mob in:
dps = 10 s
support = 20 s

My average downtime/fight is (I only need to drink/eat every 10 or so kills):
dps = 1 s
support = 1 s

The hunt for another mob is:
dps = 10 s
support = 10 s

Respawn wait is:
dps = 100 s
support = 0 s

The real trick is that although my dps class kills 2x faster then my support class, the downtime and mob search time are static. However, I deplete the area of mobs faster as dps and have to either wait for respawns or find another area. As a support class killing more slowly, I find that mobs are often starting to respawn as I'm finishing off the last one in the area.

So the great equalizer is the mob respawn rate. That normalizes the farming rate.

Now for leveling, there really no longer a need to spec protection for tanking or healing for healers. Instances are now easy enough to be tanked/healed in dps specs but just with gear/stance switchouts.

I think Blizzard has the formula about right.

For the record, as the lock, my dps while farming is about 750ish. As a protection tank, I dual-wield in battle stance or berzerk (situational) and run about 400ish on dps, so I don't really kill 2x as fast, but it's close since the lock dps is very steady while I can hit a string of whiffs/crits with the warrior and vary my dps from <200 to >900.

mm
 
"there are two variables missing from Tobold's argument"

Oops. Make that four, not two. Also, I didn't even account for another time normalizer....gathering (looting, skinning, herbing). Everyone performs those activities with equal efficiency.

mm
 
The story here goes deeper too. The problem is not just group vs solo viability, but desirability of group role.

Or formulated differently: Why are there so few tank specced players around?

At least on my server the situation is drastic.

I think the problem is actually in the game mechanism.

Tanking, especially around incisiderate DPS is hard, much harder than DPS. Healing similarly. Tanks and healers can mop up the mess DPS creates and on top of it tend to get the blunt of the blame if something does go wrong (especially with respect to gear, as tank/healer gear is much more strongly checked for in heroics).

This imbalance is an issue. Maybe that is why blizz announced to add aggro indicators of some sort to the default UI.

But if that really solves the issue is to be seen. The same with Death Knights. I strongly doubt that all three Death Knight trees will be main tank viable... and if not, why wouldn't the death knights see the same phenomenon the other tank classes see, i.e. that tank specs are underrepresented.
 
@eldric

"The proc warrior brings nothing to the PvP game whilst in a group or BG in my opinion.
"

You should go to www.tankspot.com and watch the prot warrior pvp videos. As a lock, I've been on the end of 3-4k shield slams and they hurt...alot. I shudder to think about prot warriors running around doing those crazy 8k+ shield slams...ouch. Not to mention they're stupid hard to kill.

Add in the new devastate mechanics, and they now have a spammable high dps move that weakens the armor of opponents, making it easier to take them down. The only thing missing is mortal strike, but woe now have hunters for that. =)

mm
 
Changes to holy priest healing gear = changes to devastate for solo play.

The changes to devastate, with the sunder debuff automatically added, has made duel welding proc spec an option for solo play IMO. I consider it similar the holy priest mini damage buff - not over powered, but a small enough buff to help with farming.
Since I'm not using a shield, rage is not an issue, and I find I can constantly spam devastate. Also, since my off hand is dodged 40% of the time, Overpower lit up quite a bit. It's not making my proc warrior a pvp giant (I tried it in a BG, what a disaster), but I find I can farm twice as fast then using my sword and broad, or my slow two-hander.
 
The problem will disappear completely with the release of WotLK where the new Death Knight hero class will be a tank that can DPS.

Why would that cause any problems to go away for warriors? What you are saying here is basically that warriors are so bad, that with WotLK they should all abandon the character they played for 70 levels and play a Death Knight instead. That won't happen. And I don't believe that Death Knights will be as good as tanks as a full prot warrior. Because Blizzard can't add classes, not even hero classes, that can do everything another class can do plus something better. They'd have huge warrior protest marches in Ironforge immediately.
 
As much as WoW has its issues, having played other MMORPGs I still think they do a good job of balancing the 4 types of games.

Earlier games did much worse than WoW (I played EQ, EQ2, AO and FFXI). Either not enough soloing (some classes in EQ couldn't solo at all for a long time), not enough quests (group or solo) or too much focus on grinding merely for money or exp (sometimes you couldn't do both at the same time).

When I think back to my issues with previous games, I can see the attempts made by Blizzard to solve them. And they are constantly adjusting to keep it somewhat balanced. Sure, they still fail, but not nearly as much as earlier games who took FOREVER to respond to game issues.

I think people have valid points, but I think WoW is so successful because they appear to strive to give enough of the 4 games in one game. If you want a game to focus exclusively on one type of play, WoW isn't for you.
 
I will have to say that I have been on several sides of this issue, and as Tobold and the replies have alluded to, it is very complex.

WoW tries to balance solo and group, and PvP and PvE, within a 'trinity' framework.

Additionally, there are other factors, such as the ability of some classes to AOE (pre-BC, my son's frost mage would mount up, ride through one of the fields in the Western Plagulands gathering up mobs, dismount, and AOE them all down - people would even stop to watch). Another obvious factor is competition - many people trying to farm the same area.

I have a corollary to the example of the prot-warrior and afflict-lock -- I have a prot-warrior and a shadow priest. Now the shadow priest can literally farm without ever stopping due to good gear, mana and health regen, inner focus and shadow fiend talent/ability, and mana regen trinkets. The warrior is, in my case, not only slower to the kill, but must stop to eat or bandage, with a double loss of time + resources.

But when it comes to Skettis bombing runs, the birds never knock the warrior off the mount - they attack, I just ignore them, bomb away, and eventually leave combat as I fly to the next tree. But the priest gets knocked off almost every time. Thus the warrior is typically faster in the bombing runs.

Finally, I am considering a re-spec for the warrior, and I noticed that there were some tweaks to talents that made hybrid specs more viable. It makes sense, because I've always thought that it was a conundrum that mighty warriors seem to be expected to fill the role of 'taking/mitigating damage' and 'dealing threat', while the DPS dealt damage and got threat as a byproduct.
 
easy fix. Eliminate respec costs
 
This is an MMO, it's supposed to be about group play. The Healer, the Tank and the Mage all work as intended when in a group, but don't when they're playing solo.

Sorry, where in Massively Multiplayer Online does it say Group?

There are lots of people in a city, does everyone have to find a couple of other people in order to do anything in a city?

Grouping is just one of many possible interactions. Declaring it as the single purpose activity in a game is rather limiting.

It is a bit interesting that this topic generates so much responses - it is hardly anything new or revolutionary and there are multiple games that do not have the issue or require the holy trinity to be there.
 
Why do people keep talking about a 'loss of time' in respect to solo play with Healers/Prot Warriors?
Unless you are only aiming for end-game raiding, and want to get there asap, then what does it matter if it takes you twice as long as some other class to finish a quest?
Once you get through the empty levels, you are going to have a lot more opportunities to join groups than your average dpser.

At lv 70 the typical Mage is more likely to be the one 'losing time' grinding rep/consumables whilst waiting to find a group.
Can't say I've seen 'LFM, need Hunter' come up very often in LFG Channel. Meanwhile, all the tanks and healers in our guild are Exalted with almost every faction.
 
It's not just a loss of time its the frustration felt when you watch a frost mage kill 15 mobs with AOE while you kill 1. Or having a hunter 2 levels below you who can finish killing his mob while his pet kills another. Long ago when resto was the only spec for a druid to play I'd just leave an area if a warlock, mage or hunter showed up because they wipe out the mobs so fast I just got scraps.
It frustrated me and made farming for raids or crafting a royal pain.
And I've known a lot of healers and tanks who rerolled dps alts to farm that never went back to their healers or tanks.

Don't get me wrong. I could do amazing things on my druid and was always desired by my friends and guildies for runs but for a long time I almost "hated" mages and hunters because they were so damned effective at farming all I could do was go somewhere else.

It was demoralizing as hell.

but I'll agree with you on the point that for instance runs healers and tanks have the upper hand. But two different wrongs don't make a right.

If less people dropped out of leveling thier healers/tanks due to the perception of futility and the frustration of being outdone at every turn while soloing and farming there would be more groups and everyone would benefit.
 
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