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Wednesday, December 05, 2007
Welfare epics
First of two posts today on the subject of rewards: Dyslexic wrote me to ask whether I would comment on the "welfare epics" issue, where Blizzard in the last patch made season 1 epic arena PvP gear available for honor and battleground badges, thus giving far more people access to them. So lets have a look at epics, and who gets them in World of Warcraft.
The basic principle for rewards in a MMORPG should be that equal effort rewards you with equivalent rewards. But MMORPGs have a certain interest in encouraging people to play together, and thus group activities are generally better rewarded than solo activities. The main sources for epics in WoW are raids and arena PvP. You can get epics by reputation grinds, crafting, or battleground PvP, but generally you will need to play more hours solo to get something equivalent to an epic that a group would have gotten faster.
Making the season 1 arena gear available as battleground PvP rewards moves somewhat away from that design. Battleground PvP is a borderline case between solo and group. Technically you are in a group, but nobody has to organize that group. People treat it like solo play, you log on, decided you want to do PvP, click on the NPC, wait in queue for a while, and off you go. It can be done with little or no planning. And in the worst case scenario you lose, and *still* get rewarded with one badge and some honor, while the winners just get more of both. Arena PvP is much more organized, you need to get a team together and agree with them when to do your battles. The organizational effort is much bigger, although the actual PvP isn't any more demanding than battleground PvP.
And there lies the base problem: should organizational effort be rewarded so much? Does somebody who spent 10 hours organizing and 40 hours doing arena PvP deserve a better reward than somebody who spent 50 hours doing battleground PvP without much organizing? Or should the same amount of effort spent be rewarded with equivalent epics?
On the one side of that argument is the fact that if you organize an arena team, or a PvE raid team, the cohesion among these players will be much better. The social experience is better, people are more likely to make friends, and friends lead to a better longevity of the game. In a battleground often everyone of the 10 players has the impression to be grouped with 9 idiots, who all think the same of him, but that is just the result of a lack of organization. There is very little cohesion and not many new friendships formed. The same is true for PvE, where the pickup group is an infamous source of countless anecdotes and ridicule. But in fact most of the time it is just a lack of communication. There is no magical mechanism that directs all idiots into pickup groups and all good players into well organized guild groups. More often than not it is the real-world environment that determines whether a player can commit himself to a regular arena team or raid group. If somebody doesn't know in advance when he will play this week, at what times, and for how long, his participation in all sorts of organized events is limited, and he'll automatically be more often in pickup groups and battleground PvP. That doesn't make him a worse player than somebody who knows he play every evening from 8 to midnight, and can organize teams around that schedule.
So for me it is fine if arena gear can be gained by battleground effort. After all, there is a mudflation, and the season 3 arena gear is much better than the season 1 one, so the organized play is still somewhat better rewarded. I can't subscribe to an attitude saying that only organized play deserves epic rewards. And I'd like to point Blizzard in the direction of Warhammer Online, where the concept of public quests looks like a battleground for PvE. Wouldn't it be great if we had PvE content which would be to raids like battlegrounds are to arena PvP? Log on, sign up, wait in queue and go PvE raid? But just like battleground PvP has been designed somewhat differently than arena PvP, that sort of pickup raid design has to be modified from normal raid design to be viable. That some elitist jerks will look down on the rewards as "welfare epics" is only a sign of their lack of character, and doesn't make rewards for less organized play a worse game design idea.
- posted by Tobold @ 8:32 AM Permanent Link
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It was Tigole during last Blizzcon who talked about arena gear as "welfare epics". Create a team, play 10 games, lose most of them and after a few weeks you'll get some shiny purple. So, for some (many?) players, arena is just a way to get stuff without any skill, any commitment, any organization or anything, just one hour per week for a few months (and some gold to recreate a team every week or so).
On the other hand, to keep arena interesting and balanced, Blizzard needs to provide a way for new players to get some stuff to be competitive. Thus it is a good thing to be able to get a full starter PVP set by doing battlegrounds.
On the other hand, to keep arena interesting and balanced, Blizzard needs to provide a way for new players to get some stuff to be competitive. Thus it is a good thing to be able to get a full starter PVP set by doing battlegrounds.
# posted by 
: 5/12/07 11:08
: 5/12/07 11:08
The adding of S1 to BG rewards is completely correct in the context of competitive arena play. Competitive Arena revolves entirely about fair competition at a level where skill becomes the predominant factor and gear becomes irrelevant - in other words once everyone is using the best available.
With the mudflation of top arena gear, as blimp said, you need to lessen the barriers of entry because otherwise you'll create an elite cadre of arena teams who by virtue of having been high ranked in S1 and S2 become totally out of reach for new teams during most of a season - newcomers simply cannot catch up. Hence the addition of S1 gear as a stepping stone, for which you can start saving throughout the whole levelling from 10 to 70.
It's simply a mechanism to lessen the barrier of entry.
The lose 10 games a week get a shiny set BS I have addressed on several occasions, among others here.
With the mudflation of top arena gear, as blimp said, you need to lessen the barriers of entry because otherwise you'll create an elite cadre of arena teams who by virtue of having been high ranked in S1 and S2 become totally out of reach for new teams during most of a season - newcomers simply cannot catch up. Hence the addition of S1 gear as a stepping stone, for which you can start saving throughout the whole levelling from 10 to 70.
It's simply a mechanism to lessen the barrier of entry.
The lose 10 games a week get a shiny set BS I have addressed on several occasions, among others here.
S1 for honor, in the context of PVP, is great.
My problem with it is how easily it replaces tier 4. Its creating somewhat of a barrier to entry to raiding. Its hard for my guild to progress past T4, and into T5 ( though we are doing well in ZA), because so many people have decided its just not worth it. We went from killing Mag and starting TK and SSC to barely having the people for 10 mans. This happened right at the beginning of season 3.
Why bother with T5 PvE Content when you can lose 10 games and get T6 equivalent gear. Granted, PvP gear isnt suitable for all classes in PvE, but when not concerned about progression, PVP gear becomes VERY good.
Im not saying it's blizzards fault we are struggling. Im just saying it has presented us with a hurdle.
My problem with it is how easily it replaces tier 4. Its creating somewhat of a barrier to entry to raiding. Its hard for my guild to progress past T4, and into T5 ( though we are doing well in ZA), because so many people have decided its just not worth it. We went from killing Mag and starting TK and SSC to barely having the people for 10 mans. This happened right at the beginning of season 3.
Why bother with T5 PvE Content when you can lose 10 games and get T6 equivalent gear. Granted, PvP gear isnt suitable for all classes in PvE, but when not concerned about progression, PVP gear becomes VERY good.
Im not saying it's blizzards fault we are struggling. Im just saying it has presented us with a hurdle.
# posted by : 5/12/07 14:39
: 5/12/07 14:39
A few comments...
First, in the area of mudflation: Enchanting mat and gem prices skyrocketed following the PvP gear change. Some categories have not yet fallen back to previous levels.
Second, what about PvP guilds that organize WSG and AB? They would arguably have an even greater organizational challenge, but with less reward than Arena 3 rewards even with the addition of Arena 1 and Vindicator.
Third, perhaps there should be a cash-in system for outdated PvP gear. Veteran gear is now inferior to Vindicator, but there is no way to 'trade up'.
Fourth, I'm trying to enter BGs with a level-70 who was more-or-less 'retired'. The gear gap that a questing-blues-and-greens player has just entering a PUG BG is already steep; to enter in on the ground floor is pretty painful. Not sure what the solution is, but certainly Arena 1 + Vindicator, as earned, will begin to level the playing field. (Realize that I feel strongly that PvP is much more a gear check than skill check [people LF team advertise their resilience, not their skill or kills or rating] -- your mileage may vary...)
Fifth and finally, the "Carrot on a stick" syndrome. I was done with PvP with my main because there were no other carrots to chase in BG PvP (High Warlord gear looked cool, but the stats had depreciated to almost laughable). But now there are at least a couple of pieces that I'm willing to chase. Judging from the number of active BGs in the last couple of weeks, a lot of other people have joined in the carrot chase too.
I guess that's a nickel's worth of opinions... :)
First, in the area of mudflation: Enchanting mat and gem prices skyrocketed following the PvP gear change. Some categories have not yet fallen back to previous levels.
Second, what about PvP guilds that organize WSG and AB? They would arguably have an even greater organizational challenge, but with less reward than Arena 3 rewards even with the addition of Arena 1 and Vindicator.
Third, perhaps there should be a cash-in system for outdated PvP gear. Veteran gear is now inferior to Vindicator, but there is no way to 'trade up'.
Fourth, I'm trying to enter BGs with a level-70 who was more-or-less 'retired'. The gear gap that a questing-blues-and-greens player has just entering a PUG BG is already steep; to enter in on the ground floor is pretty painful. Not sure what the solution is, but certainly Arena 1 + Vindicator, as earned, will begin to level the playing field. (Realize that I feel strongly that PvP is much more a gear check than skill check [people LF team advertise their resilience, not their skill or kills or rating] -- your mileage may vary...)
Fifth and finally, the "Carrot on a stick" syndrome. I was done with PvP with my main because there were no other carrots to chase in BG PvP (High Warlord gear looked cool, but the stats had depreciated to almost laughable). But now there are at least a couple of pieces that I'm willing to chase. Judging from the number of active BGs in the last couple of weeks, a lot of other people have joined in the carrot chase too.
I guess that's a nickel's worth of opinions... :)
# posted by : 5/12/07 14:49
: 5/12/07 14:49
There are two issues here:
1) S1 gear obtained by honor
2) S3 gear obtained by arena
Up until this point, the term 'welfare' epics has referred to arena gear. In S3, you need a good rating to get the weapons/shoulders, and guess what? Arena's are still extremely popular, as indicated by the 10 minute over capacity queues for 2v2 on my server.
So I want to say I told you so to every person who ever bitched about how required ratings would kill Arenas. It hasn't, and you were wrong.
S1 Gear
For WoW to be a legitimate PvP game, there needs to be a way for newer players to catch up. Somebody who starts WoW 6 months after an expansion shouldn't be a permanent have not for the haves to kick around. S1 gear gives an opportunity for people to catch up and keep new folks coming in. Otherwise Arena Season 4 would be made up of all ppl who started in S1, which is unhealthy.
Honor Grind is terrible
Besides, have you figured out how many hours it takes to completely kit out a new alt in full S1/Vindactor? I have heard it calculated at around 140 hours of BGs. Nobody likes AV that much, especially when what they really want to do is go play arena.
Welfare Epics Kill raiding!
Doubtful. S3 and T6 are optimized for different things.
If raiding is on hard times due to arena, maybe that says something about raiding, and how its not fun for most people.
People are looking for progression, and they are not interested in being held hostage to a 4-5 night raiding guilds schedule to do it.
If a raiding guild can't fill it's roster due to lack of interest, you probably need to disband and join a guild that want to raid. Because players don't need to jump through those hoops anymore to advance.
1) S1 gear obtained by honor
2) S3 gear obtained by arena
Up until this point, the term 'welfare' epics has referred to arena gear. In S3, you need a good rating to get the weapons/shoulders, and guess what? Arena's are still extremely popular, as indicated by the 10 minute over capacity queues for 2v2 on my server.
So I want to say I told you so to every person who ever bitched about how required ratings would kill Arenas. It hasn't, and you were wrong.
S1 Gear
For WoW to be a legitimate PvP game, there needs to be a way for newer players to catch up. Somebody who starts WoW 6 months after an expansion shouldn't be a permanent have not for the haves to kick around. S1 gear gives an opportunity for people to catch up and keep new folks coming in. Otherwise Arena Season 4 would be made up of all ppl who started in S1, which is unhealthy.
Honor Grind is terrible
Besides, have you figured out how many hours it takes to completely kit out a new alt in full S1/Vindactor? I have heard it calculated at around 140 hours of BGs. Nobody likes AV that much, especially when what they really want to do is go play arena.
Welfare Epics Kill raiding!
Doubtful. S3 and T6 are optimized for different things.
If raiding is on hard times due to arena, maybe that says something about raiding, and how its not fun for most people.
People are looking for progression, and they are not interested in being held hostage to a 4-5 night raiding guilds schedule to do it.
If a raiding guild can't fill it's roster due to lack of interest, you probably need to disband and join a guild that want to raid. Because players don't need to jump through those hoops anymore to advance.
# posted by : 5/12/07 16:52
: 5/12/07 16:52
Its a shame that the term Welfare Epics was spread about by the lead designer of WoW. Then again Tigole
has made several comments since he took over that position that made it clear he prefered to spend more time developing raid zones then other content.
What we are seeing now is that raiding is becoming less popular as PvP becomes a viable method to improve your character. Raiding can be fun but it depends a lot on players being willing to suffer strict guild rules and time schedules. It becomes a lot like a job which occassionaly pays you an epic. With PvP you have a lot more control over what you can do and thus most people are finding it more fun.
I think the real problem is that the classic design trinity Blizzard followed makes tanking and healing a lot less fun to play for most people. Some people prefer these roles but most people find them stressful and burn out. A viable PvP alternative to raiding becomes a huge attraction to these classes and could account for the attrition being reported in some guilds.
has made several comments since he took over that position that made it clear he prefered to spend more time developing raid zones then other content.
What we are seeing now is that raiding is becoming less popular as PvP becomes a viable method to improve your character. Raiding can be fun but it depends a lot on players being willing to suffer strict guild rules and time schedules. It becomes a lot like a job which occassionaly pays you an epic. With PvP you have a lot more control over what you can do and thus most people are finding it more fun.
I think the real problem is that the classic design trinity Blizzard followed makes tanking and healing a lot less fun to play for most people. Some people prefer these roles but most people find them stressful and burn out. A viable PvP alternative to raiding becomes a huge attraction to these classes and could account for the attrition being reported in some guilds.
As casual raiders, most of the people in my guild prefer raiding to arenas. Many of us play our 10 games a week to get our welfare epics, but we raid for fun and the community aspect of 10-man (and soon 25-man) parties.
Also, with the exception of weapons and a few other pieces here and there, we wear our Karazhan and badge gear instead of our PvP gear for raids.
Also, with the exception of weapons and a few other pieces here and there, we wear our Karazhan and badge gear instead of our PvP gear for raids.
Well, heaven forbid I post again, but I'll hopefully be a little more clear than before.
Arena and honor epics at level 70 are not that easy to get. Try playing alliance in bg's, where horde win 90% of the time, unless you are in a premade (at least in my battlegroup). Otherwise, its a grind to get 40 AB marks, or whatever marks you need, for certain pieces of gear. Nevermind the honor.
Compare that to raiding, where some people will be so over-geared for raids like Kara, that 2 other people can contribute nearly nothing, whether it be DPS or healing, and bosses still go down (for example, 8 manning Nightbane b/c the tank and healers have decent raiding gear). Depending on the guild, the people who did nothing b/c of lack of gear, or skill, can often roll and win epic drops from that boss.
Now, which is more of a "welfare" epic? If "welfare", being used derogatorily here, means free and without effort, than I'd argue that raid epics are just as welfare-ish, if not more, than any pvp epic. Just depends on the individual player. Raiders, and especially the hardcore raiders, will denigrate pvp epics, because it's not their cup of tea. They prefer scripted fights. But in terms of time and effort, pvp epics may take more than any raid epic.
Further, anyone who logs on for 10 games a week doesn't get their shiny epic gear the week after. Rather, if they don't care about winning, they take about 3-4 weeks to get 1 piece of gear. It may not require a lot of effort, but there is also a 3 week wait for one...one piece of gear.
Allowing people to use honor and marks to pick up some pvp-oriented epics makes it nice for people, like me (the casual raider) who doesn't feel like sitting in Kara for 10+ hours a week. Not to mention, at least with pvp, you get a chance to earn an epic you want, rather than hoping some item you want drops, and then having to win a roll on it.
Pvp epics are just one more way people can "progress" and better their character's stats via gear. I'm all for it. So I think it was a great idea to make season 1 arena gear obtainable through honor/marks. Else only hardcore pvp'ers would have a chance at even the medium rated levels of arena. And then you get to the hardcore v. casual argument, which I promise, I am not a hardcore anything. This post was not an insult to casuals, if it wasn't clear. Thanks.
Arena and honor epics at level 70 are not that easy to get. Try playing alliance in bg's, where horde win 90% of the time, unless you are in a premade (at least in my battlegroup). Otherwise, its a grind to get 40 AB marks, or whatever marks you need, for certain pieces of gear. Nevermind the honor.
Compare that to raiding, where some people will be so over-geared for raids like Kara, that 2 other people can contribute nearly nothing, whether it be DPS or healing, and bosses still go down (for example, 8 manning Nightbane b/c the tank and healers have decent raiding gear). Depending on the guild, the people who did nothing b/c of lack of gear, or skill, can often roll and win epic drops from that boss.
Now, which is more of a "welfare" epic? If "welfare", being used derogatorily here, means free and without effort, than I'd argue that raid epics are just as welfare-ish, if not more, than any pvp epic. Just depends on the individual player. Raiders, and especially the hardcore raiders, will denigrate pvp epics, because it's not their cup of tea. They prefer scripted fights. But in terms of time and effort, pvp epics may take more than any raid epic.
Further, anyone who logs on for 10 games a week doesn't get their shiny epic gear the week after. Rather, if they don't care about winning, they take about 3-4 weeks to get 1 piece of gear. It may not require a lot of effort, but there is also a 3 week wait for one...one piece of gear.
Allowing people to use honor and marks to pick up some pvp-oriented epics makes it nice for people, like me (the casual raider) who doesn't feel like sitting in Kara for 10+ hours a week. Not to mention, at least with pvp, you get a chance to earn an epic you want, rather than hoping some item you want drops, and then having to win a roll on it.
Pvp epics are just one more way people can "progress" and better their character's stats via gear. I'm all for it. So I think it was a great idea to make season 1 arena gear obtainable through honor/marks. Else only hardcore pvp'ers would have a chance at even the medium rated levels of arena. And then you get to the hardcore v. casual argument, which I promise, I am not a hardcore anything. This post was not an insult to casuals, if it wasn't clear. Thanks.
"And I'd like to point Blizzard in the direction of Warhammer Online, where the concept of public quests looks like a battleground for PvE."
arathi basin? ^^
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arathi basin? ^^
# posted by : 8/1/08 19:55
: 8/1/08 19:55<< Home
