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Thursday, December 20, 2007
Work or pay
I bought the original Guild Wars when it came out, but never played much of it. I'm not much of a PvP guy, and the PvE wasn't so exciting. But I'm still in the Guild Wars database of users and so they still send me mail with advertising and special offers. This week I got a mail offering me to buy skill and item unlock packs. Normally when you make a character in Guild Wars you have the choice of whether you want to make a level 1 character and level him up to level 20, and gather all the possible skills yourself. Or you make a level 20 character right away, but that one only has a limited set of standard skills. Unless you pay for the skill and item unlock pack and get access to all the stuff that other players had to painstakingly find themselves. Hmmm, looks surprisingly like RMT to me.
The basic problem is always the same: you can achieve anything in a MMORPG given enough time. But some people just don't have that much time. Conveniently people with little time usually have not much time to play because they have a job, and because they have a job they have more money than somebody playing the game 16 hours a day. Thus offering the guy with little time some of the achievements that the guy with lots of time "worked" for is usually an easy sell. Gold sellers make millions of dollars that way. And of course game companies would prefer to grab that money themselves, and not leave the profit for third parties. Thus NCSoft gives you the choice in Guild Wars: Do you want to work to gather all the skills and items in the game to use them in PvP, or do you prefer to pay for them. I'm pretty sure that players who did work for them won't be happy about this offer.
- posted by Tobold @ 9:37 AM Permanent Link
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Tobold this isn't really a new thing. NCSoft have offered the ability to buy PVP only accounts (with all skills) for at least a year now and I haven't seen a murmur of complaint from the community.
PVP in Guild Wars depends more on player and team skill than on equipment, having a full skill set available is seen as an "entry ticket" for high level pvp, buying a full skill pack just saves PVPers the month or so grinding they need to get the skills they want. They can't use these skills in PVE.
Its a pity in a way Tobold that you stopped playing Guild Wars so early in its life cycle. The game has evolved in a number of really clever ways. The PVE game is much richer. It bends over backwards to be friendly to players with instant mapping and free respecs. The low level cap and limited itemisation definitely influences player behaviour. There are fabulously rare and expensive armour and weapons available in the game but they offer only marginal if any advantage. Many players still grind for hours to get these but there is no "ever widening gulf" between serious and casual players.
Its not a real MMORPG of course but by being so different from games like WOW and Everquest it throws a spotlight, I think, on the factors that influence player behaviour.
PVP in Guild Wars depends more on player and team skill than on equipment, having a full skill set available is seen as an "entry ticket" for high level pvp, buying a full skill pack just saves PVPers the month or so grinding they need to get the skills they want. They can't use these skills in PVE.
Its a pity in a way Tobold that you stopped playing Guild Wars so early in its life cycle. The game has evolved in a number of really clever ways. The PVE game is much richer. It bends over backwards to be friendly to players with instant mapping and free respecs. The low level cap and limited itemisation definitely influences player behaviour. There are fabulously rare and expensive armour and weapons available in the game but they offer only marginal if any advantage. Many players still grind for hours to get these but there is no "ever widening gulf" between serious and casual players.
Its not a real MMORPG of course but by being so different from games like WOW and Everquest it throws a spotlight, I think, on the factors that influence player behaviour.
Just a few things I thought I'd point out.
-As has been said, the skills you unlock in the PVP pack on offer do not work for PVE, only for PVP created toons.
-You can unlock skills through PVP as well (once again for exclusive use in PVP) Instead of paying gold for them in game or capturing them from monsters, when you PVP with ANY character, be it PVP or PVE, you accumulate points that can be spent on skills from a vendor. These skills are then unlocked in PVP for all the PVP characters on your account.
So if you wanted to get into PVP and needed a few extra skills for your build, you'd simply need to PVP in a "gimped" state for a little while and accumulate these points through PVP.
I have the three standalone games, and not the expansion pack, eye of the north, but I can tell you, the PVP is quite exciting (despite me not playing all that much).
-As has been said, the skills you unlock in the PVP pack on offer do not work for PVE, only for PVP created toons.
-You can unlock skills through PVP as well (once again for exclusive use in PVP) Instead of paying gold for them in game or capturing them from monsters, when you PVP with ANY character, be it PVP or PVE, you accumulate points that can be spent on skills from a vendor. These skills are then unlocked in PVP for all the PVP characters on your account.
So if you wanted to get into PVP and needed a few extra skills for your build, you'd simply need to PVP in a "gimped" state for a little while and accumulate these points through PVP.
I have the three standalone games, and not the expansion pack, eye of the north, but I can tell you, the PVP is quite exciting (despite me not playing all that much).
# posted by 
: 20/12/07 11:58
: 20/12/07 11:58
I've been playing GW since the beta, back in "the day," have all three campeigns and the *Eye of the North* expansion, and I have to say, Tovald, for all you're on top of the *World of Warcraft* set, here you're badly missing the mark.
From the beginning, GW has offered players the option to either create a Lvl 1 RP character or a Lvl 20 PvP character. The skill list available to the PvP character is actually pretty extensive, it's mostly the extremely rare and challenging to get Elites that are the big deals, and not long after PvP became an active tournament event you could accumulate points via PvP battles as well as RP-campeigns to unlock such things for your use.
The whole community was really born in an environment where the idea was you could sink your hours into the game in the campeigns proper, you could sink hours in for PvP points and rankings, or you could buy unlock packs and extra character slots. There was remarkably little outcry at any point along the way, comparitively, given the effect of the rarest drops in the game, literally, is cosmetic, as in you can craft weapons equal to them with the right root piece and rare weapon/off-hand bit drops. They are, however, really, really pretty. (My current farming target is a particular scythe with the exact stats of the one I'm carrying, except it has a tentacle as the blade.)
For we folks who play the RP side casually and just want to ease our exploration of the game, stuff like this is a godsend. I don't have thirty-hours a week to sink into the game, no matter how much I like it. I want to get to see and experience the storylines as much as anyone, and wider access to the skills for my Heroes and buyable from in-game Skill Venders lets me see more content as I go.
Some might say I'm playing on Easy Mode. I say I bought the novel and I want to read the whole thing, not have some folks tell me I'm not good enough to read the last chapter because I didn't spend enough time doodling in the margins on previous ones.
If NCsoft themselves had offered me the ability to buy 500plat from them directly instead of a farmer, I'd have done so in seconds or less, so I could get my Guild Hall for my friends set up and stocked with venders. So I could keep myself in nice armour and weapons, so my friends and I could game together with cool bits all of us like making it that much more fun. (You don't want to see my girlfriend's harlequin-themed Necromancer armour.)
In GW, thankfully, it appears the hardcore community figured out early on that they were just as well off as everyone else with the situation. They, after all, can have their fights watched by anyone, at any time. They get the tournies with the big money payoffs. They get more people who've cut their way up through the ranks and looking to use those skills face-to-face. RPers get to feed that ol' collector spirit if they want, or build up libraries of skills for their Heroes to use and for them to have access to.
I would absolutely play *Guild Wars* over *World of Warcraft* on any given day of the week because of GW's focus on flexibility, skill respects, a certainly more experimental attitude and atmosphere, and some absolutely brilliant mission design that ties into setting history and characterization. And I say that as a man who spends one night a week playing *World of Warcraft* with a squad who's been together for what feels like forever.
From the beginning, GW has offered players the option to either create a Lvl 1 RP character or a Lvl 20 PvP character. The skill list available to the PvP character is actually pretty extensive, it's mostly the extremely rare and challenging to get Elites that are the big deals, and not long after PvP became an active tournament event you could accumulate points via PvP battles as well as RP-campeigns to unlock such things for your use.
The whole community was really born in an environment where the idea was you could sink your hours into the game in the campeigns proper, you could sink hours in for PvP points and rankings, or you could buy unlock packs and extra character slots. There was remarkably little outcry at any point along the way, comparitively, given the effect of the rarest drops in the game, literally, is cosmetic, as in you can craft weapons equal to them with the right root piece and rare weapon/off-hand bit drops. They are, however, really, really pretty. (My current farming target is a particular scythe with the exact stats of the one I'm carrying, except it has a tentacle as the blade.)
For we folks who play the RP side casually and just want to ease our exploration of the game, stuff like this is a godsend. I don't have thirty-hours a week to sink into the game, no matter how much I like it. I want to get to see and experience the storylines as much as anyone, and wider access to the skills for my Heroes and buyable from in-game Skill Venders lets me see more content as I go.
Some might say I'm playing on Easy Mode. I say I bought the novel and I want to read the whole thing, not have some folks tell me I'm not good enough to read the last chapter because I didn't spend enough time doodling in the margins on previous ones.
If NCsoft themselves had offered me the ability to buy 500plat from them directly instead of a farmer, I'd have done so in seconds or less, so I could get my Guild Hall for my friends set up and stocked with venders. So I could keep myself in nice armour and weapons, so my friends and I could game together with cool bits all of us like making it that much more fun. (You don't want to see my girlfriend's harlequin-themed Necromancer armour.)
In GW, thankfully, it appears the hardcore community figured out early on that they were just as well off as everyone else with the situation. They, after all, can have their fights watched by anyone, at any time. They get the tournies with the big money payoffs. They get more people who've cut their way up through the ranks and looking to use those skills face-to-face. RPers get to feed that ol' collector spirit if they want, or build up libraries of skills for their Heroes to use and for them to have access to.
I would absolutely play *Guild Wars* over *World of Warcraft* on any given day of the week because of GW's focus on flexibility, skill respects, a certainly more experimental attitude and atmosphere, and some absolutely brilliant mission design that ties into setting history and characterization. And I say that as a man who spends one night a week playing *World of Warcraft* with a squad who's been together for what feels like forever.
Good points,
I played GW for a year and stopped with the release of the second expansion. Briliant game and had lots of perks, including it was still free (without even buying extra stuff) back then.
I looked for something new, and found the big fish WoW, there is a reason why WoW has that much more paying subscribers than GW has non paying ones.
The lore and the world itself is briliant. Small things like mounts and proffesions make it more interesting and the PVE is 100 times better. Items also has a use and not just a skin.
GW had one piece of brilliance and that was the skill and build system where you can only have one epic skill active at a time.
I tried CoH, LotRo aswell, but so far WoW just takes the cake, hence the reason for 9.3 million active players.
I played GW for a year and stopped with the release of the second expansion. Briliant game and had lots of perks, including it was still free (without even buying extra stuff) back then.
I looked for something new, and found the big fish WoW, there is a reason why WoW has that much more paying subscribers than GW has non paying ones.
The lore and the world itself is briliant. Small things like mounts and proffesions make it more interesting and the PVE is 100 times better. Items also has a use and not just a skin.
GW had one piece of brilliance and that was the skill and build system where you can only have one epic skill active at a time.
I tried CoH, LotRo aswell, but so far WoW just takes the cake, hence the reason for 9.3 million active players.
# posted by : 20/12/07 13:44
: 20/12/07 13:44
I played WOW for over a year, and Guild Wars about as long. I played LOTRO for a bit and am now digging Tabula Rasa. I'd like to point out one thing that always bothers me in these posts. Many people simply saw that WOW is the best because it has the most subscribers. While I think that WOW is a good (but flawed) game, popularity != good. If it did, then American Idol is the best television show in history and Britney Spears rival the Beatles.
I've been playing Guild Wars on and off since the retail release, and I admire Arenanet for continually pursuing new ways of capitalizing on their IP. As a mostly PvE player (I've only dabbled in GW PvP during Prophecies' early period), I'm actually ambivalent about the skill unlock packs.
As touched on by xarook, skills unlocked by the packs are only immediately available to your Heroes and PvP characters. For your PvE characters to learn the unlocked regular skills, they have to go to one of the appropriate campaign's Skill trainers and buy the skill with gold and skill points that you earn as you level (or fill the experience bar if you've already reached the level cap). For elite skills unlocked by the packs, your PvE characters have the option of acquiring an Elite tome to learn them instead of the using the Signet of Capture on a defeated boss (there are also regular tomes as an alternative to purchasing them from Skill trainers).
I think the skill unlock system is quite elegant in that it allows instant gratification for an account in PvP while still limiting skill acquisition in PvE so as to alleviate the possible perception of having gained the upper hand over players who opt not to pay extra for the packs.
-Svartalve
As touched on by xarook, skills unlocked by the packs are only immediately available to your Heroes and PvP characters. For your PvE characters to learn the unlocked regular skills, they have to go to one of the appropriate campaign's Skill trainers and buy the skill with gold and skill points that you earn as you level (or fill the experience bar if you've already reached the level cap). For elite skills unlocked by the packs, your PvE characters have the option of acquiring an Elite tome to learn them instead of the using the Signet of Capture on a defeated boss (there are also regular tomes as an alternative to purchasing them from Skill trainers).
I think the skill unlock system is quite elegant in that it allows instant gratification for an account in PvP while still limiting skill acquisition in PvE so as to alleviate the possible perception of having gained the upper hand over players who opt not to pay extra for the packs.
-Svartalve
It was actually introduced as a catch-up mechanism for players joining the party late. It is an idea that many games could benefit from. For example: EVE Online.
The unlock packs were released to allow newer players, that were serious about competing, to come into the end-game PvP with the "starting blocks" (aka all skills/items unlocked). But, as stated, these skills are easily unlocked for the more casual players through normal play.
Yes, the packs do let players essentially skip over content and go directly into the end game. However, it does not really give players access to something that they would otherwise be unable to attain. Also, it gives them no distinct advantage over anyone else. Players can still only bring in 8 skills to a fight and equipment is not "that" important in Guild Wars. Essentially, buying the pack does not trivialize or diminish the work of anyone else.
That is a big difference compared to a game like World of Warcraft. This would be like Blizzard selling premade accounts with tier 6 geared level 70's. It would trivialize a lot of legitimate players achievements.
Guild Wars is built differently than other MMOGs, and the debate as to whether Guild Wars is an MMOG will never end.
The unlock packs were released to allow newer players, that were serious about competing, to come into the end-game PvP with the "starting blocks" (aka all skills/items unlocked). But, as stated, these skills are easily unlocked for the more casual players through normal play.
Yes, the packs do let players essentially skip over content and go directly into the end game. However, it does not really give players access to something that they would otherwise be unable to attain. Also, it gives them no distinct advantage over anyone else. Players can still only bring in 8 skills to a fight and equipment is not "that" important in Guild Wars. Essentially, buying the pack does not trivialize or diminish the work of anyone else.
That is a big difference compared to a game like World of Warcraft. This would be like Blizzard selling premade accounts with tier 6 geared level 70's. It would trivialize a lot of legitimate players achievements.
Guild Wars is built differently than other MMOGs, and the debate as to whether Guild Wars is an MMOG will never end.
I'd consider Guild Wars a MMOG but it's unique because its much less reliant on gearing up on PVE content then the other popular games. In fact based on how the skill choices are the most important factor in Guild Wars I say it had a lot in common with Ultima Online.
worried about RMT with guild wars? Go check out livegamer.com
They have already got SOE and funcom on board. Now let's discuss about RMT :)
They have already got SOE and funcom on board. Now let's discuss about RMT :)
# posted by : 20/12/07 17:17
: 20/12/07 17:17
Also been around on and off since GW's E3 beta and I've never known anyone in-game to have an issue with ArenaNet offering the skill packs, or the GotY pack, or anything else for sale. I have the GotY pack myself, since I'm a PvE guy. I get some great max weapons to give my new characters. Eventually, once I decide how I want to specialize them, I may "upgrade" to something else, but in the meantime the game rules don't actually allow "max" usage of "max" gear until you have progressed far enough to put enough points into the required skill. It simply lets you skip the constant treadmill upgrading your gear every level or two.
What about pre-order customers? They've always gotten additional bonus max gear only available to those who pre-ordered a certain campaign and totally unavailable to anyone else.
The PvPers in my guild's alliance seem to be of the opinion that the skill packs simply offers them more immediate opponents (or teammates) to play rather than having to wait for that player to play the PvE game all the way through to get enough skills to be competitive.
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What about pre-order customers? They've always gotten additional bonus max gear only available to those who pre-ordered a certain campaign and totally unavailable to anyone else.
The PvPers in my guild's alliance seem to be of the opinion that the skill packs simply offers them more immediate opponents (or teammates) to play rather than having to wait for that player to play the PvE game all the way through to get enough skills to be competitive.
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