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Wednesday, January 30, 2008
The fast forward solution
Blizzard has already started to tackle the problem of new players, and they did it by speeding up the progress of new players to level 60. Since patch 2.3 quests up to level 60 give more experience points, and you need less xp to level. Thus the number of hours to 60 has been significantly shortened.
The question is where we go from here. People who played the original Everquest will remember the term "hell level", describing levels in EQ where due to the complicated formula used to determine how many xp you need to level you suddenly needed far more xp to get to the next level than you needed for the previous level. Blizzard inadvertedly introduced hell levels into WoW. For a new player, who didn't spend many months at level 60, the current level 60 must appear like a hell level. He got used to leveling quickly all the way up to 60, and suddenly progress slows down significantly. You need nearly three times more xp to get from 60 to 61 than you needed from 59 to 60, while the quests and mobs do not give significantly more xp now (only item rewards are better in Outlands, of course).
Rohan from Blessing of Kings suggested to keep time to max level constant, regardless of how high the max level grows. Thus when Wrath of the Lich King comes out and sets the level maximum to 80, Blizzard would have to speed up leveling from 1 to 70 by as much time as it takes to level from 70 to 80, hopefully smoothing the leveling curve while doing so. The problem with that approach is that levels aren't infinitely compressible. Zones have a certain size, and you need a certain number of quests and time to see all the corners. If every expansion raises the level cap by another 10, we are heading towards a situation where you do less and less quests in a zone before you outlevel it. And the new levels added in the latest expansion would always be hell levels, being much slower than the way up to them, because you don't want to rush people through the new content, only through the old one.
But speeding up leveling is not the only fast forward solution Blizzard offers. The new deathknight class will not even start at level 1, but directly at a higher level, probably level 60. And apparently previous ideas of having to do a level 80 quest to be able to play a deathknight have been discarded, new players will be able to play a level 60 deathknight on their first day. Which then of course raises the logical question of why only deathknights? Time to max level could easily be held constant if new players could start any class at max level minus 20. That of course would make the existing level 1 to 60 content even more deserted and useless, but at least there would be a reasonable chance to find a group with your freshly created level 60 character right from the start.
If World of Warcraft is designed as a game where the fun and the social activity is by design concentrated at the level cap, it makes sense to fast forward new players to that level cap. The disadvantage is that you are losing something when you shorten all the old content, regardless of whether you speed it up or just skip it.
- posted by Tobold @ 9:16 AM Permanent Link
Comments:
Robert said...
I've said before, and I'll say again, the Death Knight as we know it now from Blizzard is a total joke.
It's supposed to be a 'hero class' yet they are not making it any more powerful than any other class.
It's also supposed to be special yet anyone who has a level 70 can just go make one.
Either hardcore or not, you can't have it both ways. Basically the Death Knight is NOT a 'hero class' it's just like any other class except that you have to have a level 70 to create one and it gets a huge instant boost to Level 60. Talk about lame :)
That about sums it up.
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"And apparently previous ideas of having to do a level 80 quest to be able to play a deathknight have been discarded, new players will be able to play a level 60 deathknight on their first day."
I guess here you misunderstood something.
The whole idea of Hero Classes is that they have to be unlocked, by playing a Char up to Higher Levels and do a specific Quests.
So "New Players" will not have the possibility to choose a Hero Class from the Start.
At least that's the current idea, who knows if they might change that sooner or later.
As for your Idea, i would like to see the possibility to choose ,when you create a new Character.
Do you like to start at Level 1 and play thru the old content, or you would like to start at Level 60/70?
You could make it more attractive to play at Level 1 ,to give special bonuses to those players as well.
For example a Free Epic, once you hit level 60, when you started from level 1.
And i probably lowering the amount of money needed for the first mount ,and level requirement would help alot too in "fast forward" thru the old content.
I guess here you misunderstood something.
The whole idea of Hero Classes is that they have to be unlocked, by playing a Char up to Higher Levels and do a specific Quests.
So "New Players" will not have the possibility to choose a Hero Class from the Start.
At least that's the current idea, who knows if they might change that sooner or later.
As for your Idea, i would like to see the possibility to choose ,when you create a new Character.
Do you like to start at Level 1 and play thru the old content, or you would like to start at Level 60/70?
You could make it more attractive to play at Level 1 ,to give special bonuses to those players as well.
For example a Free Epic, once you hit level 60, when you started from level 1.
And i probably lowering the amount of money needed for the first mount ,and level requirement would help alot too in "fast forward" thru the old content.
# posted by 
: 30/1/08 10:08
: 30/1/08 10:08
The disadvantage is that you are losing something when you shorten all the old content, regardless of whether you speed it up or just skip it.
I believe you can't avoid that disadvantage because of the way expansions are sold.
Apparently Blizzard wants to ensure an expansion's success with the current players by making pre-expansion equipment all but useless.
Because of that most people will always be skimming through the 'old world' content without any immersion/appreciation of the content whatsoever, out of sheer eagerness to get to the "best" weapons.
I realise that's completely subjective and weapon quality is relative to the difficulty of the foes to slay, but to my experience that's the prevailing mindset. That why I could barely find people going in pre-BC instances at all.
In effect a large part of the player population sees an expansion as a new, better game, which they want to play instead of the "old" one. To a large extent that is by design.
I believe you can't avoid that disadvantage because of the way expansions are sold.
Apparently Blizzard wants to ensure an expansion's success with the current players by making pre-expansion equipment all but useless.
Because of that most people will always be skimming through the 'old world' content without any immersion/appreciation of the content whatsoever, out of sheer eagerness to get to the "best" weapons.
I realise that's completely subjective and weapon quality is relative to the difficulty of the foes to slay, but to my experience that's the prevailing mindset. That why I could barely find people going in pre-BC instances at all.
In effect a large part of the player population sees an expansion as a new, better game, which they want to play instead of the "old" one. To a large extent that is by design.
The whole idea of Hero Classes is that they have to be unlocked, by playing a Char up to Higher Levels and do a specific Quests.
As far as I have heard the Blizzard devs backtracked on that idea. Apparently they decided that you only need to buy the WotLK expansion to "unlock" the deathknight, and neither have a level 80 character nor a quest to do so. And yes, nobody knows what is supposed to be so "hero" about that.
As far as I have heard the Blizzard devs backtracked on that idea. Apparently they decided that you only need to buy the WotLK expansion to "unlock" the deathknight, and neither have a level 80 character nor a quest to do so. And yes, nobody knows what is supposed to be so "hero" about that.
My Belf is now lv 66, and the time from lv60 has passed quite quickly, becasue there are so many quests to do in Outland.
I don't feel the time is dragging, maybe because I'm not that bothered about gettig to 70 asap.
I don't feel the time is dragging, maybe because I'm not that bothered about gettig to 70 asap.
# posted by : 30/1/08 12:13
: 30/1/08 12:13
I've said before, and I'll say again, the Death Knight as we know it now from Blizzard is a total joke.
It's supposed to be a 'hero class' yet they are not making it any more powerful than any other class.
It's also supposed to be special yet anyone who has a level 70 can just go make one.
Either hardcore or not, you can't have it both ways. Basically the Death Knight is NOT a 'hero class' it's just like any other class except that you have to have a level 70 to create one and it gets a huge instant boost to Level 60. Talk about lame :)
It's supposed to be a 'hero class' yet they are not making it any more powerful than any other class.
It's also supposed to be special yet anyone who has a level 70 can just go make one.
Either hardcore or not, you can't have it both ways. Basically the Death Knight is NOT a 'hero class' it's just like any other class except that you have to have a level 70 to create one and it gets a huge instant boost to Level 60. Talk about lame :)
Joke or not, lame or not... I think it would've been a bigger problem to have made a hero class that's stronger than "normal" classes.
The other issue is that letting us start at level 60 makes all that <60 content even more worthless and unused. If you're going to do that, why not just make it even easier to level all the way to 60 instead? Maybe make it so you could ding every hour of doing quests, etc. Or at least make that an option instead of just starting us at 60 being the only choice.
The other issue is that letting us start at level 60 makes all that <60 content even more worthless and unused. If you're going to do that, why not just make it even easier to level all the way to 60 instead? Maybe make it so you could ding every hour of doing quests, etc. Or at least make that an option instead of just starting us at 60 being the only choice.
# posted by : 30/1/08 16:17
: 30/1/08 16:17
I believe you can't avoid that disadvantage because of the way expansions are sold.
Apparently Blizzard wants to ensure an expansion's success with the current players by making pre-expansion equipment all but useless.
I disagree here. If they would make leveling in groups the most efficient method, then people would group more, they'd make more social contacts and the game would only get better. Lets be honest here. The game is great if you have a good group of friends to play with. Mediocre at best if you don't. All the talk about how much better the game was pre BC is generated IMHO because back then people needed to group to level. So we made friends, and allies and by the time we hit end game groups where easier to get.
Now a lot of people solo to end game and then they have to work thier way into social groups as if they were level 1 and knew no one.
Apparently Blizzard wants to ensure an expansion's success with the current players by making pre-expansion equipment all but useless.
I disagree here. If they would make leveling in groups the most efficient method, then people would group more, they'd make more social contacts and the game would only get better. Lets be honest here. The game is great if you have a good group of friends to play with. Mediocre at best if you don't. All the talk about how much better the game was pre BC is generated IMHO because back then people needed to group to level. So we made friends, and allies and by the time we hit end game groups where easier to get.
Now a lot of people solo to end game and then they have to work thier way into social groups as if they were level 1 and knew no one.
I think WoW is really creating a mess with the ever increasing level cap. Leveling can be fun, but expecting someone to go from 1 - 80 is ridiculous in my mind. If they don't offer the ability to start at 60 I think it would be very hard for WoW to add new players after the expansion.
And they really need to stop at 80. There is so little to do until 'endgame' and Blizz keeps pushing that endgame further and further away from the new player or the alt roller.
And they really need to stop at 80. There is so little to do until 'endgame' and Blizz keeps pushing that endgame further and further away from the new player or the alt roller.
# posted by : 30/1/08 16:32
: 30/1/08 16:32
I agree with Vlad. My 68 Rogue has just completed the first three Outland zones, meaning I still have four zones in which to explore and quest. I'll probably be running the Auchindon Instances a couple of times (unless I luck out and get that lightning fast sword first time) so I fully expect to ding 70 and still have three zones left for questing and making gold.
Now I will admit that it took me less than 5 hours to go from 59 to 60, but even in my high 60s I can easily grind out a level in less than 10 hours if I don't mess around. Green Mobs within a level or two of my own still give close to 1,000XP (rested), and with most Outland quests rewarding you with 10,000+XP it really doesn't take much effort to level from 60 to 70 either.
Now I will admit that it took me less than 5 hours to go from 59 to 60, but even in my high 60s I can easily grind out a level in less than 10 hours if I don't mess around. Green Mobs within a level or two of my own still give close to 1,000XP (rested), and with most Outland quests rewarding you with 10,000+XP it really doesn't take much effort to level from 60 to 70 either.
Robert said...
I've said before, and I'll say again, the Death Knight as we know it now from Blizzard is a total joke.
It's supposed to be a 'hero class' yet they are not making it any more powerful than any other class.
It's also supposed to be special yet anyone who has a level 70 can just go make one.
Either hardcore or not, you can't have it both ways. Basically the Death Knight is NOT a 'hero class' it's just like any other class except that you have to have a level 70 to create one and it gets a huge instant boost to Level 60. Talk about lame :)
That about sums it up.
# posted by : 30/1/08 20:03
: 30/1/08 20:03
"And apparently previous ideas of having to do a level 80 quest to be able to play a deathknight have been discarded, new players will be able to play a level 60 deathknight on their first day."
Baaaad idea..
Having a new character you never played before directly at level 60 with a huge bunch of spells you don't know is hard enough for experienced players. Image someone totally new to rpgs. He would be totally overwhelmed and is absolutely bound to suck. There is a good chance that such an experience would cause him to abandon the class or even the entire game.
Baaaad idea..
Having a new character you never played before directly at level 60 with a huge bunch of spells you don't know is hard enough for experienced players. Image someone totally new to rpgs. He would be totally overwhelmed and is absolutely bound to suck. There is a good chance that such an experience would cause him to abandon the class or even the entire game.
# posted by : 30/1/08 20:11
: 30/1/08 20:11
The deathknight is going to be great as a bank alt.
A new toon at 60, which can powerlevel enchanting, and shard all the greens that drop while levelling up in WotLK.
A new toon at 60, which can powerlevel enchanting, and shard all the greens that drop while levelling up in WotLK.
i guess blizzard forget what made WOW a brilliant success.. its not the endgame raids, but its the polished and fun lv1-60 adventure. if they 'accelerate' leveling and skip those areas then they diminished WOW's quality. its as if BLIZZARD think the fun is at the endgame levelcap raids.
i think someone said before, the thing that brought WOW down will be blizzard's own fault. After such long success, it seem the lead developers lost their vision and innovation.
do i want WOW to fail ? no , but i want Blizzard to innovate instead of just adding more of the same stuff..
as of now blizzard is again copying small innovations from LOTRO and other MMO for their updates and upcoming expansion. Cant they just create new stuff without copying someone else's ideas ???
-------------------------
Back to Leveling Topic, IMHO the correct answer to empty lowbie instances are CROSS-SERVER INSTANCES. it will save a lot of grief and will put FUN back to the old world and definitely will help newbies to enjoy WOW..
Scaling difficulty or Giving penalty to HIGH level player can be done but its a bit complicated imho.. x-server is the simplest solution.
remember , after WOTLK the Outlands will suffer same fate as 1-60 areas.. lack of interest and abandoned areas. just like tobold once said, with every expansion , the WOW playing area get smaller and smaller..
i think someone said before, the thing that brought WOW down will be blizzard's own fault. After such long success, it seem the lead developers lost their vision and innovation.
do i want WOW to fail ? no , but i want Blizzard to innovate instead of just adding more of the same stuff..
as of now blizzard is again copying small innovations from LOTRO and other MMO for their updates and upcoming expansion. Cant they just create new stuff without copying someone else's ideas ???
-------------------------
Back to Leveling Topic, IMHO the correct answer to empty lowbie instances are CROSS-SERVER INSTANCES. it will save a lot of grief and will put FUN back to the old world and definitely will help newbies to enjoy WOW..
Scaling difficulty or Giving penalty to HIGH level player can be done but its a bit complicated imho.. x-server is the simplest solution.
remember , after WOTLK the Outlands will suffer same fate as 1-60 areas.. lack of interest and abandoned areas. just like tobold once said, with every expansion , the WOW playing area get smaller and smaller..
# posted by : 31/1/08 05:39
: 31/1/08 05:39
"as of now blizzard is again copying small innovations from LOTRO and other MMO for their updates and upcoming expansion. Cant they just create new stuff without copying someone else's ideas ???"
Blizzard was never known for their brilliant and innovative ideas. Most of the time they took ideas from other people and polished them up to a grade where everyone thought that those ideas were great when before nobody was interested in those ideas.
Blizzard was never known for their brilliant and innovative ideas. Most of the time they took ideas from other people and polished them up to a grade where everyone thought that those ideas were great when before nobody was interested in those ideas.
# posted by : 31/1/08 10:50
: 31/1/08 10:50
hero class? How about making a class which (1) is OP, but (2) has hard core death penalties and other negatives.
# posted by : 1/2/08 04:19
: 1/2/08 04:19
"Blizzard was never known for their brilliant and innovative ideas. Most of the time they took ideas from other people and polished them up to a grade where everyone thought that those ideas were great when before nobody was interested in those ideas." - Kiseran
You couldn't be more right, Blizzard has always sniped out new genre's, studying others as they flounder about in deep waters before combining what they've learned and their previous experience into a game precision-engineered to be categorically better than any given competitor.
Starcraft was late to the RTS party by about 5 years, Diablo was late to the roguelike party by about 15 years, and Wow was late to the MMO party by about 10 years.
The key is that they brought the good booze.
You couldn't be more right, Blizzard has always sniped out new genre's, studying others as they flounder about in deep waters before combining what they've learned and their previous experience into a game precision-engineered to be categorically better than any given competitor.
Starcraft was late to the RTS party by about 5 years, Diablo was late to the roguelike party by about 15 years, and Wow was late to the MMO party by about 10 years.
The key is that they brought the good booze.
# posted by : 1/2/08 05:15
: 1/2/08 05:15
What Blizzard does best is refine other people's material, it's impossible to successfully argue against that really.
The pattern has always been to move on to a new genre once they've made they're move and jumped to the head of the class. I'd be willing to bet WoW gets another 2-3 token expansions after WotL. The primary changes will be designed to extend the replayability of the product to it's limit. They'll move on to steal and pimp out someone else's thunder as soon as they spot someone with a good idea.
And in case anyone was planning to call me out for Starcraft not being Blizzard's first RTS. I know... but Warcraft I and II were not terribly successful and didn't really revolutionize anything. Starcraft after all is the only game that is a nation's national sport.
You could almost argue that Diablo I and II are to WoW what Warcraft I and II were to Starcraft, prototypes. Really WoW is just a continuation of that same gameplay with channels and gamerooms replaced by instances and zones. They've already taxed the market, I think they're going to level off on subscribers probably around 15 million. That's when they'll make their move.
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The pattern has always been to move on to a new genre once they've made they're move and jumped to the head of the class. I'd be willing to bet WoW gets another 2-3 token expansions after WotL. The primary changes will be designed to extend the replayability of the product to it's limit. They'll move on to steal and pimp out someone else's thunder as soon as they spot someone with a good idea.
And in case anyone was planning to call me out for Starcraft not being Blizzard's first RTS. I know... but Warcraft I and II were not terribly successful and didn't really revolutionize anything. Starcraft after all is the only game that is a nation's national sport.
You could almost argue that Diablo I and II are to WoW what Warcraft I and II were to Starcraft, prototypes. Really WoW is just a continuation of that same gameplay with channels and gamerooms replaced by instances and zones. They've already taxed the market, I think they're going to level off on subscribers probably around 15 million. That's when they'll make their move.
# posted by : 1/2/08 05:34
: 1/2/08 05:34<< Home
