Tuesday, January 22, 2008
Finished Karazhan
Last night my guild did an impromptu mini-raid on Karazhan, finishing off the last two remaining optional bosses: Illhoof and Netherspite. I came along, we killed both on the second try, and I have now downed every boss in Karazhan, if you count the opera as one boss. I still need to see the other two opera events, having only done Romulo and Julianne twice. I picked up a shiny new epic belt from Illhoof, and some more badges of justice. I think I need to spend an hour looking through WoW-Loot and make a list what items I need from what boss. But up to now the difference between "good blue" gear from dungeons and "average purple" gear from Karazhan isn't that great. I haven't had a single epic yet which was just plain better than what I was wearing before. It was always improving one stat by a little more while lowering another stat by a little less. The difference between T0 gear from Scholomance/Stratholme/UBRS and the epics from Molten Core was bigger.
I must say my guild is doing an excellent job of getting Karazhan raids together with a good mix of noobs like me who can still use most of the loot, and experienced raiders who make sure we don't wipe too often. On the more complicated encounters we might wipe once until the players there for the first time understand how it works, and then we down the boss on the second try. The easier fights we manage on the first try. Wiping repeatedly on the prince was really an exception. For once the small raid size of Karazhan is an advantage, because you need only a handful of experienced and well equipped raiders to complement another half consisting of new raiders, people who know their stuff and are equipped in decent blue gear but don't know Karazhan yet. And the badges of justice system helps there, because even somebody who has every single piece of loot in Karazhan can still use the 20+ badges from a complete run.
The downside of the raiding system for me comes now: X weeks of doing Karazhan over and over, until I have a set of gear that allows me to participate in the next stage of the raiding circuit. I am not saying that you don't need any skill to raid, but the real obstacles to raid progression are more often gear checks than skill checks. The whole system is designed to keep people occupied, to slow down their progress and force endless repetitions, because otherwise players would "finish" the game too fast. I'd much prefer a system where you'd advance a bit faster through the raid circuit and then the next expansion would come out faster. Blizzard being unable to produce expansions in a year or less is directly responsible for the raid grind system.
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But up to now the difference between "good blue" gear from dungeons and "average purple" gear from Karazhan isn't that great. I haven't had a single epic yet which was just plain better than what I was wearing before.
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The downside of the raiding system for me comes now: X weeks of doing Karazhan over and over, until I have a set of gear that allows me to participate in the next stage of the raiding circuit.
Perhaps gear is not as important as you think it is.
...
The downside of the raiding system for me comes now: X weeks of doing Karazhan over and over, until I have a set of gear that allows me to participate in the next stage of the raiding circuit.
Perhaps gear is not as important as you think it is.
If gear wasn't important and you could directly go from Heroics to Tempest Keep or Serpentshrine, then why do sites like WoWJutsu show that these advanced raid dungeons have been visited by so few people? There isn't even an attunement any more. Did the raiders just not find the door? Or was it that they found they couldn't even beat the first boss in blue gear?
tobold,
these 'gear-check' and (previously) attunement check of TBC is what make me quit WOW for good. i got 2 lv 70 (warr and pala) and other classes at 62-68.
for me the journey from 1-60 and 61-70 is the fun part. the end game of TBC is the reason why i quit WOW.
for many many month i keep wondering why blizzard dont add feature that is FUN for casual player beside RAIDS.. and after 2 years i cannot stand it anymore..
reading your blog about LOTRO make me tried it (6 month ago) and i loved it very much now.. When will you play LOTRO and post blog about it ? kinda missed the days of LOTRO blog post from you :)
these 'gear-check' and (previously) attunement check of TBC is what make me quit WOW for good. i got 2 lv 70 (warr and pala) and other classes at 62-68.
for me the journey from 1-60 and 61-70 is the fun part. the end game of TBC is the reason why i quit WOW.
for many many month i keep wondering why blizzard dont add feature that is FUN for casual player beside RAIDS.. and after 2 years i cannot stand it anymore..
reading your blog about LOTRO make me tried it (6 month ago) and i loved it very much now.. When will you play LOTRO and post blog about it ? kinda missed the days of LOTRO blog post from you :)
If gear wasn't important and you could directly go from Heroics to Tempest Keep or Serpentshrine, then why do sites like WoWJutsu show that these advanced raid dungeons have been visited by so few people? There isn't even an attunement any more. Did the raiders just not find the door? Or was it that they found they couldn't even beat the first boss in blue gear?
Because you need 5 people for a heroic instance and 25 to raid?
Because group instances require less time than raid instances?
I'm pretty sure it's not just a gear issue.
As for gear/skill-checks. In my experience gear is most important for tanks, less so for healers. I went straight from tier 4 to tier 6 raids as a healer without much problem (beyond a slight lack of stamina). Also, the latest batch of badge rewards are about tier 5 quality, so that makes skipping "the next stage of the raiding circuit" easier.
Because you need 5 people for a heroic instance and 25 to raid?
Because group instances require less time than raid instances?
I'm pretty sure it's not just a gear issue.
As for gear/skill-checks. In my experience gear is most important for tanks, less so for healers. I went straight from tier 4 to tier 6 raids as a healer without much problem (beyond a slight lack of stamina). Also, the latest batch of badge rewards are about tier 5 quality, so that makes skipping "the next stage of the raiding circuit" easier.
I think players can easily continue their progression without succumbing to lootism. That is to say, if Tobold wants to keep progressing and experience the next level of content, which at this point is post-5-man content, he'll have to measure what sort of gear he will need. We all know todays purplz will be greenz by level 72, so anyone who really hunts loot for the sake of loot these days is an idiot.
We all know todays purplz will be greenz by level 72, so anyone who really hunts loot for the sake of loot these days is an idiot.
I think that most people are aware of that. But one doesn't gather loot for loots sake, or to in the expectation that the epics will help much in the Wrath of the Lich King. People gather epics *now*, because they want to visit Tempest Keep or the Black Temple *tomorrow*. We aren't so much gathering epic gear than rather entry tickets into content that is currently blocked for us.
I think that most people are aware of that. But one doesn't gather loot for loots sake, or to in the expectation that the epics will help much in the Wrath of the Lich King. People gather epics *now*, because they want to visit Tempest Keep or the Black Temple *tomorrow*. We aren't so much gathering epic gear than rather entry tickets into content that is currently blocked for us.
You may look at single Kara-Epics and think "whats the deal?" But some things are important:
Have a look at Light's Justice (dropped by the prince). You will notice +382 healing. The best blue (1h) weapon you can get has 227 healing on it. In addition its not likely that you will enchant a blue weapon, but this hammer will be enchanted by most players, giving it another +81 healing. Thats more like it, isn't it?
And.. not sure if I remind this correct but I'm under the impression that between "all in blues" and "all in kara-epics" lie about 2000 hp you will need to survive later on. A stat with not much developement is a priests manapool, I had 9k buffed in blues, reached 10k buffed fast after entering Karazhan and it hasn't gone up much now that I'm halfway through ZA.
But I do think the difference between blue and epic was worse pre tbc.
Have a look at Light's Justice (dropped by the prince). You will notice +382 healing. The best blue (1h) weapon you can get has 227 healing on it. In addition its not likely that you will enchant a blue weapon, but this hammer will be enchanted by most players, giving it another +81 healing. Thats more like it, isn't it?
And.. not sure if I remind this correct but I'm under the impression that between "all in blues" and "all in kara-epics" lie about 2000 hp you will need to survive later on. A stat with not much developement is a priests manapool, I had 9k buffed in blues, reached 10k buffed fast after entering Karazhan and it hasn't gone up much now that I'm halfway through ZA.
But I do think the difference between blue and epic was worse pre tbc.
Tobold said: "We aren't so much gathering epic gear than rather entry tickets into content that is currently blocked for us."
Heh, yeah. Was trying to defend you, but you phrased my point much better than I.
Heh, yeah. Was trying to defend you, but you phrased my point much better than I.
Ok, so the gear requirement is taken away and then what? Every player gets to see Black Temple?
Where is the sense of accomplishment? Blizzard made solo play and 5-man instances for the casual player. Then they went and put something in the game for the player pool that wants to raid 24/7and pursue the bleeding edge of gameplay. Everyone's happy right? Wrong. Now the casual players scream for access to the hardcore content. Let's say blizzard listens. "Here you go casual gamer, Black Temple is now accessable, and you can do it in blue gear. Hardcore Raiders, here's a new area for you to get enjoyment out of the game now that you efficiently run through content designed for a casual player."
"But wait a minute Blizz. Where are all the hardcore players going? WHy don't we have easy access to their new playground? FIX IT!!"
And the cycle continues...
Where is the sense of accomplishment? Blizzard made solo play and 5-man instances for the casual player. Then they went and put something in the game for the player pool that wants to raid 24/7and pursue the bleeding edge of gameplay. Everyone's happy right? Wrong. Now the casual players scream for access to the hardcore content. Let's say blizzard listens. "Here you go casual gamer, Black Temple is now accessable, and you can do it in blue gear. Hardcore Raiders, here's a new area for you to get enjoyment out of the game now that you efficiently run through content designed for a casual player."
"But wait a minute Blizz. Where are all the hardcore players going? WHy don't we have easy access to their new playground? FIX IT!!"
And the cycle continues...
On the difference between blue and Kara healing gear for priests:
http://www.wowwiki.com/BC_healing_equipment_(cloth)
http://www.wowwiki.com/BC_healing_equipment_(cloth)
I think you are trying to be facetious, anselm, but that's a great idea!
Actually the term "accomplishment" means different for things to different people. I want to experience the content, see the sites as it were, not really get the best purplz in the game. So why not have the equivalent of normal vs heroic on the raid dungeons. Make a 5 man version that's harder than the heroics, but doesn't drop the same level items as raiding it. Essentially let people play the content in a more accessible manner, but reserve the creme-de-la-creme gear for the raiders (if that's how you want to design the game, which Blizz has stated they do...)
Actually the term "accomplishment" means different for things to different people. I want to experience the content, see the sites as it were, not really get the best purplz in the game. So why not have the equivalent of normal vs heroic on the raid dungeons. Make a 5 man version that's harder than the heroics, but doesn't drop the same level items as raiding it. Essentially let people play the content in a more accessible manner, but reserve the creme-de-la-creme gear for the raiders (if that's how you want to design the game, which Blizz has stated they do...)
Check out Kaliban's Loot List web site at http://wow-loot.com/raid_kara.htm . It also suggests which drops are best for which classes. Since many guilds tie the suggestions into their loot distribution system, there's a fair amount of discussion and disagreement...
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