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Thursday, January 24, 2008
I found my ticket
As I remarked in a previous comment, raiding is not looking for loot just for loot's sake. It is looking for the ticket that allows you entry to the next level of raiding. And last night I found my ticket: the Shard of the Virtuous from the Maiden of Virtue in Karazhan, a one-hand mace with a huge bonus to healing. As I had already previously found a off-hand healing item from Aran, the two items together increased my +healing bonus by 200 points. On my first Karazhan raid I had under +1200 healing buffed, at the end of last night I had +1515 healing buffed. And as one of my readers remarked, once you have such a nice epic weapon, you are willing to spend the ca. 500 gold to enchant it with the +81 healing bonus enchantment, which would get me up to nearly +1600. There isn't a fixed number of how much +healing you need as a priest to visit Tempest Keep, Serpentshrine Cavern, or Zul'Aman. But I'm pretty certain that 1200 was too low, and 1600 is more like it. I'm feeling more confident, and less than a burden to my guild, if I sign up for a raid now.
One nice thing about the growing healing bonus is that due to recent patch changes one third of the healing bonus is also increasing my spell damage. That doesn't do much in raids, but it does make my soloing life easier. I'm not greedy, I pass on all damage caster loot I find in a group or raid. It is nice to know that by concentrating on the stats that help my priest most to become a useful raider, I'm not gimping myself for soloing. I just wish Blizzard would come up with a way to introduce something similar for protection warriors. The gear I collect with my warrior has armor, defence, and stamina, and is only marginally helpful for soloing.
Last night's raid was a blast, not only because of the loot. We had an unusual raid composition, as we were the "B Team", the second Karazhan raid group formed that night by my guild. We had 4 druids in the group, one healing, the other three switching between tanking and melee dps as required. 2 hunters, me as only priest, one healadin, one shaman, and one mage. Kudos to the guild officers of managing to balance the two teams so well, we actually finished our planned "first half Kara" before the first group. Well, they had the Wizard of Oz in the opera, and we had Romulo and Julianne (again, grrr, third time opera, third time Romulo), and apparently our encounter was easier. But we were really on a roll, killed Attumen, Moroes, the Maiden, and the opera event on the first try, and only wiped once on Nightbane before downing him too. And it only took 3 hours to do all this.
- posted by Tobold @ 8:52 AM Permanent Link
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Yep +1500 healing is where you can start thinking SSC/TK. Having that much +healing also helps loads in Karazhan and ZA. It's just suddenly one feels like a raid-level healer again.
# posted by 
: 24/1/08 10:52
: 24/1/08 10:52
"We had an unusual raid composition"
Previously you stated how uncompromising Karazhan was in regard to raid composition. Yes, some aspects of the instance have been nerfed, but I've said all along that you can go to Kara with unusual team set-ups and beat it.
Ok, some events are easier with certain classes, but that does not make them impossible.
As for an earlier comment you made this week comparing Karazhan to MC, I'm sure you spent a hell of a lot of time in MC before you ended up with 2 similar quality items.
Wizard of Oz is a fun event; in fact all of the Opera events are fun.
Previously you stated how uncompromising Karazhan was in regard to raid composition. Yes, some aspects of the instance have been nerfed, but I've said all along that you can go to Kara with unusual team set-ups and beat it.
Ok, some events are easier with certain classes, but that does not make them impossible.
As for an earlier comment you made this week comparing Karazhan to MC, I'm sure you spent a hell of a lot of time in MC before you ended up with 2 similar quality items.
Wizard of Oz is a fun event; in fact all of the Opera events are fun.
# posted by : 24/1/08 12:11
: 24/1/08 12:11
Previously you stated how uncompromising Karazhan was in regard to raid composition.
You apparently don't *want* to understand me. The success that my guild has in Karazhan is not due to the place being accessible enough. Just look at the calendar! It shouldn't take a large guild nearly a year to master the first raid dungeon.
Karazhan remains uncompromising in regard to raid composition if you take 10 people with blue gear from non-heroic instances. But if over half of your raid is already in nearly full Karazhan epics and just there to find one final piece, or to help guild mates, then class composition becomes less of an issue. Most people would agree that on many boss fights a protection spec warrior is better than a feral druid as tank. But that is only the case if the two have comparable level of gears. A druid in Karazhan epics effortlessly outtanks my warrior in his non-heroic instance gear.
I said it before, I am grateful to my guild because due to their previous efforts I'm now enjoying Karazhan in something very close to the "easy mode" I previously talked about on this blog. That changes nothing in my conviction that this easy mode should be provided by Blizzard right from the start, and not rely on some players having to do it the hard way to then help other players to do the same raids much easier.
You apparently don't *want* to understand me. The success that my guild has in Karazhan is not due to the place being accessible enough. Just look at the calendar! It shouldn't take a large guild nearly a year to master the first raid dungeon.
Karazhan remains uncompromising in regard to raid composition if you take 10 people with blue gear from non-heroic instances. But if over half of your raid is already in nearly full Karazhan epics and just there to find one final piece, or to help guild mates, then class composition becomes less of an issue. Most people would agree that on many boss fights a protection spec warrior is better than a feral druid as tank. But that is only the case if the two have comparable level of gears. A druid in Karazhan epics effortlessly outtanks my warrior in his non-heroic instance gear.
I said it before, I am grateful to my guild because due to their previous efforts I'm now enjoying Karazhan in something very close to the "easy mode" I previously talked about on this blog. That changes nothing in my conviction that this easy mode should be provided by Blizzard right from the start, and not rely on some players having to do it the hard way to then help other players to do the same raids much easier.
Karazhan remains uncompromising in regard to raid composition if you take 10 people with blue gear from non-heroic instances.
But up to now the difference between "good blue" gear from dungeons and "average purple" gear from Karazhan isn't that great. I haven't had a single epic yet which was just plain better than what I was wearing before. It was always improving one stat by a little more while lowering another stat by a little less. The difference between T0 gear from Scholomance/Stratholme/UBRS and the epics from Molten Core was bigger.
... X weeks of doing Karazhan over and over, until I have a set of gear that allows me to participate in the next stage of the raiding circuit.
I'm not sure I get your point.
They should have made easy-mode Karazhan so it would be possible with odd groups in blue gear?
But what about the rewards if they already are minor upgrades?
And if the upgrades are minor, why are they required for further raiding?
But up to now the difference between "good blue" gear from dungeons and "average purple" gear from Karazhan isn't that great. I haven't had a single epic yet which was just plain better than what I was wearing before. It was always improving one stat by a little more while lowering another stat by a little less. The difference between T0 gear from Scholomance/Stratholme/UBRS and the epics from Molten Core was bigger.
... X weeks of doing Karazhan over and over, until I have a set of gear that allows me to participate in the next stage of the raiding circuit.
I'm not sure I get your point.
They should have made easy-mode Karazhan so it would be possible with odd groups in blue gear?
But what about the rewards if they already are minor upgrades?
And if the upgrades are minor, why are they required for further raiding?
# posted by : 24/1/08 14:06
: 24/1/08 14:06
Do you see me as a troll, Tobold? Every time I disagree with you, you get the knives out.
The easymode dungeon already exists; it's called Zul Gurub or AQ20, but I don't see too many lv 70 newbies queueing up to go there (as I'm in LFG channel pretty much the whole time I am online, I have yet to 'see LFG AQ20 anyone?').
The only people who go there seem to be people who have gone before, just to see how easy it is now, compared to pre-BC.
The easymode dungeon already exists; it's called Zul Gurub or AQ20, but I don't see too many lv 70 newbies queueing up to go there (as I'm in LFG channel pretty much the whole time I am online, I have yet to 'see LFG AQ20 anyone?').
The only people who go there seem to be people who have gone before, just to see how easy it is now, compared to pre-BC.
# posted by : 24/1/08 14:06
: 24/1/08 14:06
Vlad, I don't want to sound like Tobold-fanboi but I had trouble understanding your post, too. Now you confuse me even more. What does Zul'Gurub now have to do with TBC? Or do you mean "Zul'Gurub at the time of the good ole days of MC?" ZG - when it came out first - was a wholeheartedly slaughtery for blue oder early MC equipped chars. Countless wipes on Batwomen, Spiderwoman and Tony the Tiger... Raid guilds that went BWL equipped into ZG found the place ok in terms of difficulty but could not use a single piece of equipment. When ZG was toned down, almost every player who wanted to raid was MC / BWL equipped, by then it was almost too late. So they significantly toned down ZG and increased the loot value.
on a different topic....
Tobold, did you ever notice the angels in the banquet hall of Moroes? Just how much do you enjoy the lovely, great level of detail that went into Karazhan (and Zul'Gurub with the cuuuuute voodoo gnome dolls before Jin'Do)?
BTW: My second char is almost as close to being equiped like your healer, so it is nice to compare the progress for our priests.
Please continue to write down your experiences with the place?
on a different topic....
Tobold, did you ever notice the angels in the banquet hall of Moroes? Just how much do you enjoy the lovely, great level of detail that went into Karazhan (and Zul'Gurub with the cuuuuute voodoo gnome dolls before Jin'Do)?
BTW: My second char is almost as close to being equiped like your healer, so it is nice to compare the progress for our priests.
Please continue to write down your experiences with the place?
meh, I really dislike not being able to edit my comments...
Tobold, did you ever notice the angels on the ceiling in the banquet hall of Moroes? Just how much do you enjoy the lovely, great level of detail that went into Karazhan?
Tobold, did you ever notice the angels on the ceiling in the banquet hall of Moroes? Just how much do you enjoy the lovely, great level of detail that went into Karazhan?
Do you see me as a troll, Tobold? Every time I disagree with you, you get the knives out.
Neither troll nor knives. You have the right to disagree with what I write, I have the right to disagree with your comment and respond. I don't understand why you are so adamant that casual players shouldn't have the right to visit places like the Black Temple. Sending them to ZG or AQ20 where they can find level 60 items which are worse than the level 70 blues they have is not realistic.
But up to now the difference between "good blue" gear from dungeons and "average purple" gear from Karazhan isn't that great. I haven't had a single epic yet which was just plain better than what I was wearing before.
Note the "up to now" and "yet" in what I wrote earlier. Today's post was to inform you that this isn't true any longer. The epic I got last night is significantly better than the blue gear I had. And I now also studied loot tables, where previously I just let the loot surprise me. As I said, from my first raid to the situation I'll be in when I enchant my new mace I went up from +1200 to +1600 healing, which is significant. And if I'll find all the Kara gear that is good for healing, I'll approach +2000.
I'm not sure I get your point.
They should have made easy-mode Karazhan so it would be possible with odd groups in blue gear?
Yes.
But what about the rewards if they already are minor upgrades?
And if the upgrades are minor, why are they required for further raiding?
For easy mode Karazhan you would get minor upgrades, but that would be sufficient for you to visit easy mode ZA/TK/SSC. Where you would get further minor upgrades, with which you could visit the Black Temple, Mount Hyjal, and Sunwell Plateau.
Heroic mode Karazhan would give much bigger upgrades, but more upgrades would be required to visit heroic mode next level raid dungeons. Thus progression in heroic mode would be slower than in easy mode.
Neither troll nor knives. You have the right to disagree with what I write, I have the right to disagree with your comment and respond. I don't understand why you are so adamant that casual players shouldn't have the right to visit places like the Black Temple. Sending them to ZG or AQ20 where they can find level 60 items which are worse than the level 70 blues they have is not realistic.
But up to now the difference between "good blue" gear from dungeons and "average purple" gear from Karazhan isn't that great. I haven't had a single epic yet which was just plain better than what I was wearing before.
Note the "up to now" and "yet" in what I wrote earlier. Today's post was to inform you that this isn't true any longer. The epic I got last night is significantly better than the blue gear I had. And I now also studied loot tables, where previously I just let the loot surprise me. As I said, from my first raid to the situation I'll be in when I enchant my new mace I went up from +1200 to +1600 healing, which is significant. And if I'll find all the Kara gear that is good for healing, I'll approach +2000.
I'm not sure I get your point.
They should have made easy-mode Karazhan so it would be possible with odd groups in blue gear?
Yes.
But what about the rewards if they already are minor upgrades?
And if the upgrades are minor, why are they required for further raiding?
For easy mode Karazhan you would get minor upgrades, but that would be sufficient for you to visit easy mode ZA/TK/SSC. Where you would get further minor upgrades, with which you could visit the Black Temple, Mount Hyjal, and Sunwell Plateau.
Heroic mode Karazhan would give much bigger upgrades, but more upgrades would be required to visit heroic mode next level raid dungeons. Thus progression in heroic mode would be slower than in easy mode.
All Karazhan epics have pretty much the same item level, so you must have gotten some pretty badly designed epics first then. For what it's worth, I'm still using that mace in Black Temple :-) Btw, all Karazhan epics got buffed in one of the first major patches after the TBC release.
An important part of my motivation for participating in Mount Hyjal and Black Temple raids, is experiencing new places and fights. If normal/heroic modes were implemented for raid instances, I'm not sure I would visit the heroic version after doing the normal one. And I probably wouldn't skip the normal one either if that meant waiting long for my gear to be good enough for heroic mode.
For me there's a difference between having normal/heroic modes for low/middle tier content and for top tier content. If I've already seen every instance, gearing up just to see those instances again in heroic mode wouldn't be as motivating.
An important part of my motivation for participating in Mount Hyjal and Black Temple raids, is experiencing new places and fights. If normal/heroic modes were implemented for raid instances, I'm not sure I would visit the heroic version after doing the normal one. And I probably wouldn't skip the normal one either if that meant waiting long for my gear to be good enough for heroic mode.
For me there's a difference between having normal/heroic modes for low/middle tier content and for top tier content. If I've already seen every instance, gearing up just to see those instances again in heroic mode wouldn't be as motivating.
# posted by : 24/1/08 15:52
: 24/1/08 15:52
@tem:
The point I am making is that if people want to learn how to raid in an 'entry-level' instance, then they can go and practice in ZG or AQ20 if Karazhan is too hard.
'There's no point, there isn't any loot there'. If Karazhan is too hard then any loot provided in an easier instance will have to fit somewhere between what is gettable in normal instances like Shattered Halls/Shadow Labs etc, and the current gear available in Kara or through Badge purchases.
Tobold already said there was a lot of stuff in Karazhan that was not greatly different from that available elsewhere (and of course there is some good stuff, too), so the level of difference between easy-mode raids and Kara gear would have to be fairly miniscule unless they completely overhauled the whole loot structure.
As for SSC/BT etc, I already agreed with you, Tobold, that they are too inaccessible. Make those places easier to get into; heck make them 10 man instances as well, then there wouldn't be all this problem with 25 v 10 players.
Make an easy-mode 5 player Karazhan. It is such a beautiful place, both in terms of architechture and game design, that I feel aorry for anyone who enjoys WoW but can't get there.
The point I am making is that if people want to learn how to raid in an 'entry-level' instance, then they can go and practice in ZG or AQ20 if Karazhan is too hard.
'There's no point, there isn't any loot there'. If Karazhan is too hard then any loot provided in an easier instance will have to fit somewhere between what is gettable in normal instances like Shattered Halls/Shadow Labs etc, and the current gear available in Kara or through Badge purchases.
Tobold already said there was a lot of stuff in Karazhan that was not greatly different from that available elsewhere (and of course there is some good stuff, too), so the level of difference between easy-mode raids and Kara gear would have to be fairly miniscule unless they completely overhauled the whole loot structure.
As for SSC/BT etc, I already agreed with you, Tobold, that they are too inaccessible. Make those places easier to get into; heck make them 10 man instances as well, then there wouldn't be all this problem with 25 v 10 players.
Make an easy-mode 5 player Karazhan. It is such a beautiful place, both in terms of architechture and game design, that I feel aorry for anyone who enjoys WoW but can't get there.
# posted by : 24/1/08 16:15
: 24/1/08 16:15
I'm not sure I get your point.
They should have made easy-mode The point I am making is that if people want to learn how to raid in an 'entry-level' instance, then they can go and practice in ZG or AQ20 if Karazhan is too hard.
And would those epics dropping there help thier progression? Would it do them anygood in future raids. Come on that is the weakest argument you've come up with yet.
Even non hard core raiders want progression. The fact is they did not provide the LBRS that they promised. It's like they started BC out with MC and had no LBRS or UBRS to train people.
I agree if the devs had actually thought things out and retweaked the drops in the old raid instances to BC quality that would have been a great place for people to start learning to raid. But the devs themselvs told us to forget the old world and move on to the expansion. And they screwed the entry level raiding up.
If you disagree fine butI think most people are not in your camp.
They should have made easy-mode The point I am making is that if people want to learn how to raid in an 'entry-level' instance, then they can go and practice in ZG or AQ20 if Karazhan is too hard.
And would those epics dropping there help thier progression? Would it do them anygood in future raids. Come on that is the weakest argument you've come up with yet.
Even non hard core raiders want progression. The fact is they did not provide the LBRS that they promised. It's like they started BC out with MC and had no LBRS or UBRS to train people.
I agree if the devs had actually thought things out and retweaked the drops in the old raid instances to BC quality that would have been a great place for people to start learning to raid. But the devs themselvs told us to forget the old world and move on to the expansion. And they screwed the entry level raiding up.
If you disagree fine butI think most people are not in your camp.
Tobold, you should look at Spellsurge for an enchant also. I'm not sure how it compares with the cost for +81 healing, but in a group with 3+ members with Spellsurge it can quite effective. It's up to you though, most of the testing out there proves that either are effective.
Note: 3+ healers with Spellsurge is only likely in SSC/TK/other 25man instances.
Note: 3+ healers with Spellsurge is only likely in SSC/TK/other 25man instances.
I've been to Kara once (2 days ago).
Been attuned for 6 months.
Small guilds and part time playing don't allow you to get into content.
Kara should have been a puggable, 10 man, rock up and play raid!
Not a gear check fest to effectivly lock the more relaxed player out of the game.
The current Kara should have been the next stage not the first.
Tobold... well done on seeing that content, I envy you.
Do you not feel a little bit guilty with all that time spent playing though?
Been attuned for 6 months.
Small guilds and part time playing don't allow you to get into content.
Kara should have been a puggable, 10 man, rock up and play raid!
Not a gear check fest to effectivly lock the more relaxed player out of the game.
The current Kara should have been the next stage not the first.
Tobold... well done on seeing that content, I envy you.
Do you not feel a little bit guilty with all that time spent playing though?
# posted by : 25/1/08 02:00
: 25/1/08 02:00
hmm tobold knows my opinion about kara already so i don´t elaborate on that again for good ;)
but one question comes to mind while reading all this:
When you make kara more easy won´t that result in casual people wiping in ssc and as a result of that screaming for ssc to be nerfed?
you see where i am going...
belive me, when ssc and bt and all those raid instances would be scaled down so that is as accessible as many people here seem to want it, WoW would be dead already that is my opinion.
i don´t know where you get all those numbers, cause when i look in our realm forum where we have a hall of fame with guilds posting their progress, i see that on our server 11 guilds downed illidan, 21 guilds downed lady vashi and and 35 !! guilds downed the first encounters in ssc like hydross or the lurker.
well seems that i am playing on a turbo elite hardcore server =)
but one question comes to mind while reading all this:
When you make kara more easy won´t that result in casual people wiping in ssc and as a result of that screaming for ssc to be nerfed?
you see where i am going...
belive me, when ssc and bt and all those raid instances would be scaled down so that is as accessible as many people here seem to want it, WoW would be dead already that is my opinion.
i don´t know where you get all those numbers, cause when i look in our realm forum where we have a hall of fame with guilds posting their progress, i see that on our server 11 guilds downed illidan, 21 guilds downed lady vashi and and 35 !! guilds downed the first encounters in ssc like hydross or the lurker.
well seems that i am playing on a turbo elite hardcore server =)
# posted by : 25/1/08 10:32
: 25/1/08 10:32
i don´t know where you get all those numbers
Wrong post? No numbers on raid participation in this one. But in general I get my numbers about how many people visited what raid dungeon from WoWJutsu. Where currently 2.37 million players are listed as "raiders", that is having visited Karazhan, out of 4.5 million players in Europe and North America. There is some discussion about how this is counted (characters vs. players, are people counted that are in a raid guild but who don't raid, etc.). But even if we just take the numbers as they are, only 6% of raiders, thus 3% of players, visited the Black Temple after one year of the Burning Crusade.
I agree that there must be some sort of raid progression, with some raid dungeons being more difficult than others, and thus some people getting stuck half way. But right now half of the players don't even get to see the first raid dungeon after a year of trying, and 97% of players don't get to the last dungeon. I'd suggest to flatten that difficulty curve so that 100% of players who want to raid can at least finish Karazhan in a year, and 50% of raiders reach the Black Temple after a year.
Wrong post? No numbers on raid participation in this one. But in general I get my numbers about how many people visited what raid dungeon from WoWJutsu. Where currently 2.37 million players are listed as "raiders", that is having visited Karazhan, out of 4.5 million players in Europe and North America. There is some discussion about how this is counted (characters vs. players, are people counted that are in a raid guild but who don't raid, etc.). But even if we just take the numbers as they are, only 6% of raiders, thus 3% of players, visited the Black Temple after one year of the Burning Crusade.
I agree that there must be some sort of raid progression, with some raid dungeons being more difficult than others, and thus some people getting stuck half way. But right now half of the players don't even get to see the first raid dungeon after a year of trying, and 97% of players don't get to the last dungeon. I'd suggest to flatten that difficulty curve so that 100% of players who want to raid can at least finish Karazhan in a year, and 50% of raiders reach the Black Temple after a year.
my comment on the numbers was directed more towards your new blog entry about epics to wipe ratio where you said that 50% of all gamers didn´t even see kara.
"Even by the most optimistic interpretation of the WoWJutsu data only 50% of players in Europe and North America have ever seen Karazhan, and only 3% the Black Temple,......... "
this number only shows one thing. you misinterpret all numbers drastically !
why?
50% didn´t SEE kara. read: didn´t WANT to go there.
noone on earth can make me believe that anyone was willing but not able to get into kara after one year. noone!
regarding black temple im in your boat to a degree.
but bt IS considered high end content for the most dedicated players, so i guess it is not bad as it is.
"Even by the most optimistic interpretation of the WoWJutsu data only 50% of players in Europe and North America have ever seen Karazhan, and only 3% the Black Temple,......... "
this number only shows one thing. you misinterpret all numbers drastically !
why?
50% didn´t SEE kara. read: didn´t WANT to go there.
noone on earth can make me believe that anyone was willing but not able to get into kara after one year. noone!
regarding black temple im in your boat to a degree.
but bt IS considered high end content for the most dedicated players, so i guess it is not bad as it is.
# posted by : 25/1/08 11:04
: 25/1/08 11:04
this number only shows one thing. you misinterpret all numbers drastically !
why?
50% didn´t SEE kara. read: didn´t WANT to go there.
noone on earth can make me believe that anyone was willing but not able to get into kara after one year. noone!
Well, I'd love to hear your interpretation of those numbers, preferably as comment to the new thread where they belong. :)
What we know is that 50% of players don't have a single Karazhan item. Whether that is because they don't want epics, or because they couldn't get one, we don't know. It isn't all that trivial to get attuned, get into a raiding guild, get into a raid, and then actually succeed with the raid and get at least one epic.
And to counter your assertion: Noone on earth can make me believe that 97% of players just felt no desire whatsoever to get their hands on Black Temple epic loot. Noone!
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why?
50% didn´t SEE kara. read: didn´t WANT to go there.
noone on earth can make me believe that anyone was willing but not able to get into kara after one year. noone!
Well, I'd love to hear your interpretation of those numbers, preferably as comment to the new thread where they belong. :)
What we know is that 50% of players don't have a single Karazhan item. Whether that is because they don't want epics, or because they couldn't get one, we don't know. It isn't all that trivial to get attuned, get into a raiding guild, get into a raid, and then actually succeed with the raid and get at least one epic.
And to counter your assertion: Noone on earth can make me believe that 97% of players just felt no desire whatsoever to get their hands on Black Temple epic loot. Noone!
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