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Friday, February 22, 2008
Is exploration still part of the adventure?
Supa wrote me an interesting e-mail saying: "Remember the day when you did not know where a quest ends or where an items drops? The days before sites like wowhead showed you all that stuff, and mmo-champion showed you the models of new characters before they came out. The days when content was new and you had to socialize with other people to find out where to go or what to do. Do these sites spoil our “newness” of a new environment or is WoW just getting old?" That touched a nerve, because I was just following advice from Cameron's infomercial and installed QuestHelper. That is an addon for World of Warcraft which shows all the quest locations on your map, and even suggests a shortest path for which quests to do next and in which order. That suggested path totally spoiled the game for me, following it felt like playing on rails. I haven't uninstalled QuestHelper yet, but I turned off the path with the "/qh ants" command. The thing bugs me, but I agree with Cameron that "It will change the way you play World of Warcraft."
The reason why I didn't uninstall it was the same that Cameron mentioned: Like everybody else, if I get stuck on a quest and can't find the quest object, I go to a site like Thottbot, Allakhazam, or WoWHead to find coordinates of where I have to go. Much more practical if I don't need to leave the game to do that, and just need to call up the map to find the location. Would it be better to "socialize" as Supa said, and ask other people where to go? Most of us are reluctant to be the looked down upon guy who is asking for the location of Mankrik's wife in Barrens chat. Looking the information up on Thottbot carries less of a stigma.
But whether you ask around, or use QuestHelper, or use a quest spoiler site, the result is always the same: exploration stops being part of the quest. It is because a million other players already did that quest before us that searching high and low for the location doesn't really make sense. Mankind kind of rules over the other species on this planet because we developed the ability to pass on knowledge, instead of reinventing the wheel every time. It is in our genes to apply the same to virtual worlds, even if it effectively diminishes part of the interest.
Another part of the problem is the quality of the quest descriptions, which varies in WoW, and is often even worse in other games. If the quest text just tells you to kill 10 foozles without giving you any indication where to find those foozles, no wonder you'd rather look the location up than waste time looking everywhere. So I think one good way out for future games would be to have a minor QuestHelper functionality already included in the game: your quest journal could show not only the text, but also a small map with a red circle in the general location where you need to go. Not the exact coordinate, but at least the area where to look.
- posted by Tobold @ 8:11 AM Permanent Link
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To me, exploration is not necessarily tied to quests. In my opinion, the quests are the guided tour to Azeroth, but to find the really interesting stuff you have to leave the path. Places like the Nagrand orphanage, Nova's gravestone, the Upside-down Sinners, the farm in Silithus and the Conan cave are the real rewards for exploration, not the quest rewards.
Although.. the two could be linked in a different way. Instead of a "go there, kill 10 foozles"-quest, you explore, kill 10 foozles blocking the way and find a special place. You'll get a quest from a doodad/NPC there and return it to Ironforge's Explorers' League, for example. The Lunar Festival Elders are a perfect example of this type of a quest. You get a hint about their location (or just stumble into them), talk to them and get a reward from Moonglade for your trouble.
Although.. the two could be linked in a different way. Instead of a "go there, kill 10 foozles"-quest, you explore, kill 10 foozles blocking the way and find a special place. You'll get a quest from a doodad/NPC there and return it to Ironforge's Explorers' League, for example. The Lunar Festival Elders are a perfect example of this type of a quest. You get a hint about their location (or just stumble into them), talk to them and get a reward from Moonglade for your trouble.
Exploring the "map" or coordinates to something is a typical "newbie" type of exploring. The more advanced players explore other aspects of the system.
This gets a bit silly as the common interpretation of "exploring" is related to some type of adventure in the wilderness. However the typical game designer has given up on that as a mechanic and leaves it at the level of fantasy.
This gets a bit silly as the common interpretation of "exploring" is related to some type of adventure in the wilderness. However the typical game designer has given up on that as a mechanic and leaves it at the level of fantasy.
# posted by 
: 22/2/08 10:19
: 22/2/08 10:19
I'm happy to spend 20 minutes looking for something, but after that it becomes an annoyance.
For example, last night in Blades Edge mountain, I was searching for 3 Orc artifacts in an Ogre town.
I found the Tablet and the Drum, but I could not find the Arrow, despite checking every building (or so I thought) two or three times. Having to fight off dinosaurs and Ogres constantly whilst doing it became a real drag.
No point asking others, unless they could give me exact coordinates, so I'm going to look up the location today on the internet.
At least I found various Ogre leaders during my search, and added them to my map, so that I know where they are when the inevitable follow up quest asks me to kill them!
For example, last night in Blades Edge mountain, I was searching for 3 Orc artifacts in an Ogre town.
I found the Tablet and the Drum, but I could not find the Arrow, despite checking every building (or so I thought) two or three times. Having to fight off dinosaurs and Ogres constantly whilst doing it became a real drag.
No point asking others, unless they could give me exact coordinates, so I'm going to look up the location today on the internet.
At least I found various Ogre leaders during my search, and added them to my map, so that I know where they are when the inevitable follow up quest asks me to kill them!
# posted by : 22/2/08 11:15
: 22/2/08 11:15
@Shalkis
What you propose reminds me of some Trait quests in LotRO.
Trait quests are quests not linked to NPC, but quests you discover while playing.
For instance, while questing in Bree Land, you will earlier or later stumble on some ruins. A quest will be unlocked : “human ruins”
In tout trait diary, you will see that there are 8 human ruins in Bree land. To get your trait, you need to explore the region to find them all.
Once you found them all, you get some reward (ex. +0.5% ranged resistance) which you can then equip on your avatar as some kind of “skill”. This is the way to build your template in LotRO.
So character building is linked to exploration, which is nice.
Of course, instead of looking for foozles on a website, you can check for ruins. (c:
Gehenne
What you propose reminds me of some Trait quests in LotRO.
Trait quests are quests not linked to NPC, but quests you discover while playing.
For instance, while questing in Bree Land, you will earlier or later stumble on some ruins. A quest will be unlocked : “human ruins”
In tout trait diary, you will see that there are 8 human ruins in Bree land. To get your trait, you need to explore the region to find them all.
Once you found them all, you get some reward (ex. +0.5% ranged resistance) which you can then equip on your avatar as some kind of “skill”. This is the way to build your template in LotRO.
So character building is linked to exploration, which is nice.
Of course, instead of looking for foozles on a website, you can check for ruins. (c:
Gehenne
# posted by : 22/2/08 11:54
: 22/2/08 11:54
Got nothing against exploring and just hanging around somewhere if I have time for that.
I see the QuestHelper plug-in as a time saver if you need to finish up something quickly. It sounds similar to Guild Wars questing. You see which way to go and while being closer, even the location in the map.
I think it's an improvement if used wisely.
I see the QuestHelper plug-in as a time saver if you need to finish up something quickly. It sounds similar to Guild Wars questing. You see which way to go and while being closer, even the location in the map.
I think it's an improvement if used wisely.
# posted by : 22/2/08 11:59
: 22/2/08 11:59
As Gehenne said, recently purchasing Lord Of The Rings Online, a scant day ago, Its re-evoked the exploration side of me that has been somewhat tempered by the easy treatment WoW has given me with certain addons and resources.
That said - As someone who always reads the quest descriptions, I often find myself exploring whilst still knowing where I need to go, instead of getting lost.
That said - As someone who always reads the quest descriptions, I often find myself exploring whilst still knowing where I need to go, instead of getting lost.
I still love exploring the maps and finding new places to adventure. I'll "explore" bits of the game mechanics too, but that's less rewarding, and certainly less immersive.
I'm surprised none of the "hardcore" vets have wistfully pined for the MUD days when putting this info "out there" was largely forbidden and policed by the users... those days are gone and won't be coming back.
For quests, here's the bottom line for my personal play-style: was the quest written well enough to actually get me to read it? If not, I clicked OK, I just want to get it over with in the hopes the next one will actually be entertaining. Did the quest text point me in the general direction, perhaps give me a landmark or two, the way real people would give directions? If not, I'm only going to "explore" for so long before I start looking up the quest online. Is the quest itself fun? If I'm annoyed by the quest, I'll look it up just so I can get it over with and hope the next quest is actually fun.
You mention being "social" and asking for help rather than looking at an MMO database site. Ever try that? Rather than pointing you in the direction and letting you do the rest on your own, the other players will likely just give you coordinates to go to, which is the same as using QuestHelper. Perhaps that's some people's idea of "help" (they tend to throw tantrums if you don't give them precise coords) but to me they just took what little fun was remaining in this quest (since I had to break down and ask to begin with) and gave me a "go here" dot on my map.
I'm surprised none of the "hardcore" vets have wistfully pined for the MUD days when putting this info "out there" was largely forbidden and policed by the users... those days are gone and won't be coming back.
For quests, here's the bottom line for my personal play-style: was the quest written well enough to actually get me to read it? If not, I clicked OK, I just want to get it over with in the hopes the next one will actually be entertaining. Did the quest text point me in the general direction, perhaps give me a landmark or two, the way real people would give directions? If not, I'm only going to "explore" for so long before I start looking up the quest online. Is the quest itself fun? If I'm annoyed by the quest, I'll look it up just so I can get it over with and hope the next quest is actually fun.
You mention being "social" and asking for help rather than looking at an MMO database site. Ever try that? Rather than pointing you in the direction and letting you do the rest on your own, the other players will likely just give you coordinates to go to, which is the same as using QuestHelper. Perhaps that's some people's idea of "help" (they tend to throw tantrums if you don't give them precise coords) but to me they just took what little fun was remaining in this quest (since I had to break down and ask to begin with) and gave me a "go here" dot on my map.
"Rather than pointing you in the direction and letting you do the rest on your own, the other players will likely just give you coordinates to go to"
Funny the answer I got when asking was : "go download WoW carthography, NooB"
So i downloaded it...
Gehenne
Funny the answer I got when asking was : "go download WoW carthography, NooB"
So i downloaded it...
Gehenne
# posted by : 22/2/08 14:53
: 22/2/08 14:53
Hmmm... 30 seconds on WoWHead or 30 minutes wandering around, wasting my time, trying to find the one special scorpion I'm trying to kill in an entire zone?
WoWHead please.
As a casual gamer, I don't have the kind of time to waste on these ridiculous endeavors. My goal is the endgame and anything that makes me waste my time "exploring" is not something I'm a fan of.
WoWHead please.
As a casual gamer, I don't have the kind of time to waste on these ridiculous endeavors. My goal is the endgame and anything that makes me waste my time "exploring" is not something I'm a fan of.
# posted by : 22/2/08 15:04
: 22/2/08 15:04
When going ot unusual or out of the way areas of the map, I' don't really care all that much whether I discovered it on my own or heard/read about it somewhere else. Seeing it in game is always different and cool, however I found out about it.
As for quests, looking them up is a timesaver, which trumps all else.
As for quests, looking them up is a timesaver, which trumps all else.
I haven't used QuestHelper but am a firm believer in LightHeaded. This imports Wowhead data into the quest log, so you can see comments and start/complete locations.
This is much less intrusive and very helpful. It's an additional panel on your quest log, but it can be opened or closed so you can hide it if you want. Even if it's shown, you usually have to page through the comments to get any spoilers.
Depending on how I feel on a given day, I will either spend time trying to find the mobs myself, or I will map out a few key locations on Cartographer using info from LightHeaded.
This is much less intrusive and very helpful. It's an additional panel on your quest log, but it can be opened or closed so you can hide it if you want. Even if it's shown, you usually have to page through the comments to get any spoilers.
Depending on how I feel on a given day, I will either spend time trying to find the mobs myself, or I will map out a few key locations on Cartographer using info from LightHeaded.
I've wondered the same thing in Everquest 2, which has an excellent addon called EQ2maps - which adds points of interest to the zone map, so you can move your mouse over all the little dots to find where the quest monsters or NPCs are. On the one hand, it's tremendously helpful and saves a lot of time. On the other, I wonder how much I'm just becoming trained to always take the shortcut and never explore on my own. Once you add EQ2 spoiler sites to the mix, questing seems much less exciting and just another form of grind. But yet I continue to do it!
# posted by : 22/2/08 15:53
: 22/2/08 15:53
For my first couple of toons/alts I didn't use and wouldn't use such a tool.
The occasional look on thot or wowhead did the job when I was really stuck.
When you get to a point of rolling 4th and 5th alts as 3 are already 70... then such tools come into there own.
The world at large isn't really there to explore anymore.
Also playing Lotro... I have mixed blessings about lack of tools like this. Some days it is great, others a real bane when I haven't much time.
However, the like of WoWhead, Thot and Questhelper only really serve to aid WoW in its dominance of the game market.
The purists might not like it, but 90% of the gamer population is lazy (not the best word at hand). These addons and support sites will be key to the success of any future WoW Beaters.
The occasional look on thot or wowhead did the job when I was really stuck.
When you get to a point of rolling 4th and 5th alts as 3 are already 70... then such tools come into there own.
The world at large isn't really there to explore anymore.
Also playing Lotro... I have mixed blessings about lack of tools like this. Some days it is great, others a real bane when I haven't much time.
However, the like of WoWhead, Thot and Questhelper only really serve to aid WoW in its dominance of the game market.
The purists might not like it, but 90% of the gamer population is lazy (not the best word at hand). These addons and support sites will be key to the success of any future WoW Beaters.
# posted by : 22/2/08 16:06
: 22/2/08 16:06
I used to explore the WoW map. I used to poke my head into every nook and cranny.
The only reward was seeing some really cool views or some odd structures. No quests, no rare mobs, no other reward.
This is yet another thing that WAR fixes. In one of the podcast videos the funny guy mentioned that off the beaten path in this game has all sorts of 'little rewards' for exploring.
I'm really really pleased to see this :)
It's one thing Blizzard totally f'ed up when following their formula for the game.
It's one thing I miss from the old console RPG's where if you went off the beaten path you'd usually find some treasure chest hidden in the bushes or something.
I'm glad it's being brought back with WAR.
The only reward was seeing some really cool views or some odd structures. No quests, no rare mobs, no other reward.
This is yet another thing that WAR fixes. In one of the podcast videos the funny guy mentioned that off the beaten path in this game has all sorts of 'little rewards' for exploring.
I'm really really pleased to see this :)
It's one thing Blizzard totally f'ed up when following their formula for the game.
It's one thing I miss from the old console RPG's where if you went off the beaten path you'd usually find some treasure chest hidden in the bushes or something.
I'm glad it's being brought back with WAR.
I would say the real way these tools destroy exploration is not in day-to-day quests, but exactly the kind of nooks and crannies and out of the way spots that Robert mentioned.
Once someone discovers such a spot, they tag it in the tool and it becomes a must-go for everyone else, thus ruining the original intent.
Once someone discovers such a spot, they tag it in the tool and it becomes a must-go for everyone else, thus ruining the original intent.
# posted by : 22/2/08 16:33
: 22/2/08 16:33
I don't like being told exactly where to go with a marker and a way point, unless it's a game like WoW where I just want to grind through it. There's no point in being low level in WoW, you don't even exist yet, so yeah I can understand it for a game like that.
I can also understand it for a game like SWG because it's such a huge world and most missions are randomly generated.
However, I also think that games that have been around have to do it. I think DAoC even does it now, mainly because of WoW I'm sure.
The only times I don't want to see it used is when the game is new, the only exception being if it is new and the terrain is horribly laid out.
What I mean by that is, if I'm supposed to be looking for an old Monastery to the south, I should be able to travel south and then through a break in the trees or behind a small hill I should see an old Monastery standing out.
It's all a part of questing in general and the quests' designs. The terrain should be the way points imo.
UO didn't even have quests and the world was huge AND people could roam randomly in the wild and still get to where they were going by identifying landmarks/familiar places.
I can also understand it for a game like SWG because it's such a huge world and most missions are randomly generated.
However, I also think that games that have been around have to do it. I think DAoC even does it now, mainly because of WoW I'm sure.
The only times I don't want to see it used is when the game is new, the only exception being if it is new and the terrain is horribly laid out.
What I mean by that is, if I'm supposed to be looking for an old Monastery to the south, I should be able to travel south and then through a break in the trees or behind a small hill I should see an old Monastery standing out.
It's all a part of questing in general and the quests' designs. The terrain should be the way points imo.
UO didn't even have quests and the world was huge AND people could roam randomly in the wild and still get to where they were going by identifying landmarks/familiar places.
My first time through an area, I tend to do a lot of exploring/discovering things. I like to load up my quest log with as many quests as possible, empty my bags and then explore and hopefully find what I need to complete quests as I go.
When I'm stuck and can't figure it out after reading the quest a couple of times (imo, WoW is getting better and better at writing them), then I'll go ahead and get help.
But on an alt, if it's been a while, I tend to focus more on the speed of leveling and if I can't recall a spot, I'll look it up.
When I'm stuck and can't figure it out after reading the quest a couple of times (imo, WoW is getting better and better at writing them), then I'll go ahead and get help.
But on an alt, if it's been a while, I tend to focus more on the speed of leveling and if I can't recall a spot, I'll look it up.
# posted by : 22/2/08 18:45
: 22/2/08 18:45
I love figuring out quests on my own if they are well written enough that it's a reasonable endeavor. Unfortunately there is a tradition in MMOs that quests often don't give you enough to go on. I remember doing quests in EQ where they wouldn't even tell you what continent to look in, much less what zone.
It's sloppy quest design like this that made help sites like Ala and Thotbott the norm. It's so bad that in some games they just put a dot on your map where the quest target or next NPC is. If that's the only way you can come up with to convey what needs to be done, get new writers. For me it utterly kills and sense of exploration or achievement to be spoonfed to such a ridiculous degree.
It's sloppy quest design like this that made help sites like Ala and Thotbott the norm. It's so bad that in some games they just put a dot on your map where the quest target or next NPC is. If that's the only way you can come up with to convey what needs to be done, get new writers. For me it utterly kills and sense of exploration or achievement to be spoonfed to such a ridiculous degree.
# posted by : 22/2/08 23:59
: 22/2/08 23:59
There's no point in being low level in WoW, you don't even exist yet, ...
Alas so true.
Alas so true.
# posted by : 23/2/08 00:48
: 23/2/08 00:48
I'm sure it'd be a coding nightmare, but why not give NPCs the ability to answer questions we might have about a specific quest? From a roleplay perspective, it's what our characters would do if they were actually running around in Azeroth.
"Hey, you there good sir! The captain of the guard has tasked me with decreasing the Foozle population, but I'm not sure where they might be. Could you point me in the right direction?"
There are so many NPCs in WoW that sit around serving absolutely no purpose whatsoever. Why not put them to use and give them the ability to help us out?
"Hey, you there good sir! The captain of the guard has tasked me with decreasing the Foozle population, but I'm not sure where they might be. Could you point me in the right direction?"
There are so many NPCs in WoW that sit around serving absolutely no purpose whatsoever. Why not put them to use and give them the ability to help us out?
# posted by : 23/2/08 01:39
: 23/2/08 01:39
Look, I hate looking up quests, really. I just wish I could hold 1000 quests in my log, so I could just collect them all as I find them, then when I stumbled onto the stuff I needed to kill/collect/whatever for one of them I could just go about doing so. I usually like to kill at least one of any new thing I find. The key word being FIND. If I could get the added benefit of a pop up saying 1/10 so and so's killed and I could just kill more, that would be great. Also, with the new sparkle on things you can interact with for quests, if you had them all in your book, you could just see, oh, I'm supposed to get that. If I could just hold all the quests, I think I would explore everything on my own and never use a site like wowhead!
# posted by : 23/2/08 14:38
: 23/2/08 14:38
Thanks for the great comments all,
I'm also thinking of playing lotro again, but will stick with WoW for now.
I'm also thinking of playing lotro again, but will stick with WoW for now.
# posted by : 24/2/08 08:28
: 24/2/08 08:28
While I agree with Shalkis, I also think there are other ways to explore the game besides simply visiting places. Experimenting with how to spec and gear your characters, getting your first epic world drop, and meeting and friending that occassional pug 5-man that is actually intelligent. I consider these things another form of exploration that aren't dependent on actually searching for something.
# posted by : 24/2/08 19:15
: 24/2/08 19:15
verilizac, for an explorer type the exploration is the only exploration. Doing it over again on another toon with another race another spec or another class. isn't new exploration its just another grind
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