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Monday, February 25, 2008
Metal Gear Warcraft
Cameron from Random Battle has an excellent article on aggro radius on his blog. He correctly points out how little intuitive it is that monsters detect you when you cross an invisible circle, regardless of direction. Which means that you can be killing the monster's friends in plain sight of him, as long as you stand just outside that invisible circle. World of Warcraft made some improvements to aggro radius over previous games: a mob's aggro radius depends on the level difference between you and him, thus if you are higher level you can more easily pass through a group of mobs. Aggro radius in WoW isn't the same for every mob of the same level, some mobs are more aggressive than others, which keeps things interesting. And the aggro radius can vary depending on situation, for example if you open a chest you will aggro a mob that didn't notice you on exactly the same spot when you were just standing there. But in spite these minor improvements, the general concept of aggro radius is still flawed.
A more realistic detection mechanism would include a combination of sight and sound. Sight obviously works in a cone towards the front, although you could include variations, like a wider cone for two-headed ogres, or mobs with no sight at all, or mobs with eyes on their back. Sound (or smell) would work in a radius. Again variations could be included: does a warrior in plate make more noise than a mage in cloth armor? Does the monster hear you open a squeaky door or chest? Does taking an occasional shower makes you less likely to be smelled? Okay, maybe the last one is going too far. :)
If you have played any game from the Metal Gear series, or similar stealth games, you'll know what I'm talking about. It gives rise to completely new strategies and gameplay, like making a noise to get a guard to turn around, so you can pass through the area he was previously watching. In Dungeons & Dragons pen and paper roleplaying, a well-played rogue would use trick like that. In World of Warcraft a rogue *can* make monsters turn around, but that by itself has no effect, it is just a visual clue that the distraction ability succeeded. You can imagine how much more interesting a rogue would be to play if mobs had a more realistic detection system. And of course for all other classes the way we pull and fight and pass through mob-infested areas would change a lot.
So what do you say, Metal Gear Warcraft anyone?
- posted by Tobold @ 10:10 AM Permanent Link
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Actually, although it isn't readily obvious, mobs in WoW do have a greatly reduced detection range when they're facing away from the player. They'll still detect you at range though, especially if they're close or higher level, but it's noticeably less. It also isn't very granular; there's basically a forward (normal) arc and the reduced rear arc.
# posted by 
: 25/2/08 11:35
: 25/2/08 11:35
Indeed. However, the existing FoV system isn't that visible when the most common AI idle script is a bit like this:
1) Pick a random direction
2) Walk a few steps into that direction
3) If range from the spawn point is greater than X, set direction towards the spawn point. Otherwise, pick a random direction.
4) Go to 2.
Patrols are fun to sneak past, though.
1) Pick a random direction
2) Walk a few steps into that direction
3) If range from the spawn point is greater than X, set direction towards the spawn point. Otherwise, pick a random direction.
4) Go to 2.
Patrols are fun to sneak past, though.
A 'Metal Gear Warcraft' mode would add dynamic challenge - so yes, this would greatly enhance gameplay and make killing monsters less grindy.
Actually, in Age of Conan they are trying to make detection range a little more interesting:
" [...] the NPCs in conan have different kinds of senses to detect people, the vision sense is actually a cone, so moving around the NPC OUT of sight, will help you remain stealthed.
The way the light hits you will also matter, if anyone remember back in june, there was a light meter kinda like a thief on your screen, this is gone, but it will come back.
This is a very vital aspect of stealth.
There is another thing we are THINKING about putting back in, and that’s the ability to see the NPCs senses. Very similar to the way in “Thief”.
There is also a weight/sound/smell system in while you are stealthed, the more noise you make, you are easier to detect. This is influenced by your armor/clothes/weapons etc.
This means you will have to look at things like: Are they in the line of sight? Are they in the shadows, are they standing still,etc?
Part of the coolness is mastering this skill."
Actually, in Age of Conan they are trying to make detection range a little more interesting:
" [...] the NPCs in conan have different kinds of senses to detect people, the vision sense is actually a cone, so moving around the NPC OUT of sight, will help you remain stealthed.
The way the light hits you will also matter, if anyone remember back in june, there was a light meter kinda like a thief on your screen, this is gone, but it will come back.
This is a very vital aspect of stealth.
There is another thing we are THINKING about putting back in, and that’s the ability to see the NPCs senses. Very similar to the way in “Thief”.
There is also a weight/sound/smell system in while you are stealthed, the more noise you make, you are easier to detect. This is influenced by your armor/clothes/weapons etc.
This means you will have to look at things like: Are they in the line of sight? Are they in the shadows, are they standing still,etc?
Part of the coolness is mastering this skill."
EQ1's aggro radius was also determined in part by level, and also whether it was facing you, and whether or not you were seated (in EQ1, casters originally had to sit and "meditate" to regain mana.)
# posted by : 25/2/08 12:57
: 25/2/08 12:57
The rogue's distract actually does have more value than just being a visual indicator. As noted by another commenter, mob's do have a reduced aggro range behind them. When a rogue is stealthed, approaching from behind allows you to get much closer without being detected, while stealthing into a mob's face will get aggro in a heartbeat.
Distract also opens up a rogue's positional attacks, something that is a little more realistic. Only being able to backstab when you're, you know... behind someone is appropriate.
Distract also opens up a rogue's positional attacks, something that is a little more realistic. Only being able to backstab when you're, you know... behind someone is appropriate.
On Shard-farming Runs if there are two or more Mobs in a corridor and I need to sneak through, I'll sap one then 'distract' the others so they turn to face the wall, then slip behind them. When Mobs turn to face my 'distraction' it's far more than just a visual clue. As has already been pointed out, you're less likely to be detected while sneaking around behind a Mob's back, than if you're creeping around under his nose.
I've had a lot of fun replaying the same old quests with my Rogue, because the Stealth ability means I can complete many quests using an entirely different strategy than I used for my Hunter, who often used a different strategy than my Warrior.
I've had a lot of fun replaying the same old quests with my Rogue, because the Stealth ability means I can complete many quests using an entirely different strategy than I used for my Hunter, who often used a different strategy than my Warrior.
I agree with all of this, of course on the other end you have the developers whining about the calculations they would have to make to support this kind of thing. Personally I think its more a matter of priority at this point with graphics taking the number one priority for optimization and this kind of thing somewhere down at number 10 or so. Cuz pretty graphics sell games and smart mobs do not.. yet.
I think this would be a nice touch to any game. However, for this to work in WoW mob placement, maybe even entire dungeons, would have to be redesigned. It would add another fun element to an instance, though. Pull this mob at this time so the other group doesn't see and won't get aggro'ed as well.
The amount it would change the game would be much larger than a simple stat change, it would almost be it's own special feature. It would definitely require it's own patch. There would also have to be some exp gain from sneaking past a monster rather than killing it, otherwise rogues would never lvl up.
The amount it would change the game would be much larger than a simple stat change, it would almost be it's own special feature. It would definitely require it's own patch. There would also have to be some exp gain from sneaking past a monster rather than killing it, otherwise rogues would never lvl up.
This is not the sort of thing you can easily retrofit in. Obviously the designers made things this way for very specific reasons. Unfortunately like a lot of other things in WoW it's not very realistic.
It would be interesting to have an MMO that had a more realistic feel. Monsters that don't just stand around all day and night in the same spot doing nothing. A place where the world changed, it's characters doing things that you would expect them to do.
This lack of realism is why I don't understand people who like to roleplay in warcraft. The immersion in WoW is very limited IMHO.
It would be interesting to have an MMO that had a more realistic feel. Monsters that don't just stand around all day and night in the same spot doing nothing. A place where the world changed, it's characters doing things that you would expect them to do.
This lack of realism is why I don't understand people who like to roleplay in warcraft. The immersion in WoW is very limited IMHO.
That's a good point. Retrofitting this change would entail retooling all the dungeons in the game and considering how lazy they are I don't think they'd do it. Not to mention lots of other places. May be something for the next Blizzard MMO "It is much better to start out right than to go slightly wrong and then try to make things right. You will find that getting right is much harder the farther you go along as well."
Your suggestion was implemented by FFXI since the first release.
They have 3 types of "stealth" spell. "Sneak" "Deodorize" and "Invisible".
Sound aggro mobs have circular aggro radius. The radius varies along the family of that mob, sound generated by player's armor and level differences.
Sight aggro mobs have frontal cone detection varies along similar category to sound. You can sneak pass their back easily.
Scent aggro mobs detect specific smell. Most of the time is blood related. The lower your HP, the more likely you will be detected from afar.
Magic aggro mobs detect spell casting. Once players cast a spell, they will start attacking instantly.
Skill aggro mobs detect the activation of active skills.
Link aggro mobs attack once another mob in the same family within its detection range are being harmed.
True sight, true sound and so forth are specific detection types that cannot be sheltered by spell or medicine.
Blizzard could put all these into WoW but they don't. Simply because the game will be too complicate for WoW target market. And it will just ended up harming the subscription rate... Admit to it, Blizzard got it right by aiming at simplicity rather than the complex mechanism.
They have 3 types of "stealth" spell. "Sneak" "Deodorize" and "Invisible".
Sound aggro mobs have circular aggro radius. The radius varies along the family of that mob, sound generated by player's armor and level differences.
Sight aggro mobs have frontal cone detection varies along similar category to sound. You can sneak pass their back easily.
Scent aggro mobs detect specific smell. Most of the time is blood related. The lower your HP, the more likely you will be detected from afar.
Magic aggro mobs detect spell casting. Once players cast a spell, they will start attacking instantly.
Skill aggro mobs detect the activation of active skills.
Link aggro mobs attack once another mob in the same family within its detection range are being harmed.
True sight, true sound and so forth are specific detection types that cannot be sheltered by spell or medicine.
Blizzard could put all these into WoW but they don't. Simply because the game will be too complicate for WoW target market. And it will just ended up harming the subscription rate... Admit to it, Blizzard got it right by aiming at simplicity rather than the complex mechanism.
# posted by : 26/2/08 05:48
: 26/2/08 05:48
"Admit to it, Blizzard got it right by aiming at simplicity rather than the complex mechanism."
Oh, I'll admit it. That's why I'm not playing WoW... but millions of other are :)
Oh, I'll admit it. That's why I'm not playing WoW... but millions of other are :)
Maybe you have already checked this, but I'll point it to you anyway, because that's how I roll:
http://www.zenofdesign.com/?p=1018
Damion pretty much sums why I won't like more realistic aggro detection.
That and moving from point A to point B while pretending to be Snake all the time is not fun. It's horribly tedious.
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http://www.zenofdesign.com/?p=1018
Damion pretty much sums why I won't like more realistic aggro detection.
That and moving from point A to point B while pretending to be Snake all the time is not fun. It's horribly tedious.
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