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Tuesday, February 19, 2008
Reinventing my warrior
As mentioned in the previous post, here is my article on my current thoughts on my World of Warcraft warrior, complete with positive preface. :) I am currently playing three different characters in WoW regularly. I love leveling my mage. Not just because of the inherent joy of leveling, but because the mage feels powerful in comparison to my other characters. I can attack mobs of my level at maximum range and often kill them before they even reach me. I did my first Outland dungeon groups, in ramparts and blood furnace, and not only was I fully able to fulfill my role in that group, but also I didn't need to respec to do it. It played differently than soloing, more crowd control, less damage dealing, but not so differently that I would have wished I had spec'd differently. I haven't tried PvP yet with my mage, I'll wait until I hit level 70 with that, but again I don't foresee any conflicts between a PvP role and a soloing role.
I also love playing my holy/disc priest. This is the character I'm raiding with. I've been raiding with that priest all the way through Molten Core, AQ20, Zul'Gurub, and BWL up to Nefarian before TBC, and through Karazhan and Gruul's Lair afterwards. I might not be the best raider ever, but I'm competent enough as a healer to be an asset and not a burden to a raid group. By raiding I got a bunch of epic gear, and due to recent changes that make one third of my healing bonus apply to spell damage as well, I'm actually not all that bad at soloing. I also can usually find easily a spot in a 5-man guild group, for example for heroics. Everyone loves a healer.
It is my third character, my warrior, actually the first character I hit a level cap with in any game, with whom I am not totally happy. He has a role, as tank in 5-man dungeons, normal and heroic. But that role is rather limited, and I find it hard to broaden his horizon. Tanking isn't an optimal strategy for soloing. It also has limited possibilities in PvP. But I'm reluctant to change to a dps spec in which I would be a better soloer and PvPer, because it would compromise my role as a tank. I can't respec every time I want to switch from one mode of gameplay to another, Blizzard made that too expensive. Furthermore if I redefined myself as a dps warrior, the next problem would be just around the corner: the advent of a huge number of deathknights competing for the same role and gear in WotLK as a dps warrior. So I think dps warrior is not the way to go. The only thing I could imagine would be playing a dps warrior for long enough to get lets say some PvP done, suspending my tank role, and then get back to it in time for WotLK. But I don't enjoy PvP as much as I enjoy 5-man grouping, and most of the possible PvP rewards are more suited for a dps warrior than for a tank.
If I stick with a tanking role, I need to leave my comfort zone to evolve. I already tried, I signed up for an "alt raid" to Karazhan last night, but we couldn't get enough people together. And I wouldn't have felt comfortable being "main tank" on my first Karazhan raid with the warrior. Raid tanking is still a good step up from 5-man tanking, and I have neither the experience nor the gear. I can learn, but that probably involves a lot of wiping, and there are 9 other people that wipe if the main tank of a raid makes a mistake. I think the best would be to do more tanking in heroic dungeons, to improve my tanking experience and gear, although that still leaves me short of raiding experience. With my priest I am more of a casual raider. I don't think there is such a thing a casual raider main tank. And I'm not quite sure how useful I would be as a casual raider off tank.
The other possibility is relegating the warrior to "alt" status, and playing him a lot less. He does some useful stuff like alchemy and fishing, or farming money with daily quests. Maybe the deathknights of WotLK will tank "good enough" for 5-man groups, which would pretty much eliminate my need for playing a warrior at all. It is predictable that a group full of deathknights will rather invite a healer, who does the one thing deathknights absolutely can't do, and doesn't roll on plate loot. But we don't know yet when exactly WotLK will come out, and how exactly the deathknight will play, so retiring my warrior already is a bit premature. So right now he is a bit in limbo, ready to tank if my guild needs a tank, but uncertain how to evolve until the expansion and even more so after it.
If you play a warrior, how do you see his future? For the most dedicated tank players there will most likely be a role as main tank in raids for the foreseeable future. For the more casual players, and the dps warriors, the future is less certain.
- posted by Tobold @ 9:47 AM Permanent Link
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Off tanking Kara doesn't seem like a bad option to me.
In our guild we tend to bring one geared MT and one less geared OT to our Kara raids at the moment. An OT is a necessity on a lot of tthe trash and a few bosses but it usually not raid breaking if they are a bit undergeared or inexperienced at tanking raids.
In our guild we tend to bring one geared MT and one less geared OT to our Kara raids at the moment. An OT is a necessity on a lot of tthe trash and a few bosses but it usually not raid breaking if they are a bit undergeared or inexperienced at tanking raids.
# posted by 
: 19/2/08 11:17
: 19/2/08 11:17
in general i would say that tanking heroics is more difficult than tanking raids.this is due to the fact that you have to tank several mobs at the same time in an heroic.
the thing that you must work on is to get the maximum threat per second out of your warrior, meaning a good keybinding and knowledge of how to use your abilitys to get the maximum out of them.
in 5 man max dps is simply not needed plus pulling aggro is no problem at all (mobs are tauntable and so on) in raids the dps classes expect to go all out in dps (or nearly all out)in order to beat certain bosses.
the thing that you must work on is to get the maximum threat per second out of your warrior, meaning a good keybinding and knowledge of how to use your abilitys to get the maximum out of them.
in 5 man max dps is simply not needed plus pulling aggro is no problem at all (mobs are tauntable and so on) in raids the dps classes expect to go all out in dps (or nearly all out)in order to beat certain bosses.
# posted by : 19/2/08 11:37
: 19/2/08 11:37
Oh wow, do I relate to this.
I play a warrior and I have a resto druid alt, and I like both of them. I've tanked Karazahan a lot and also played my warrior as fury there when I wanted a break. Definitely try off-tanking Kara if you can, I think it's a lot of fun.
But I feel ambivalent about the warrior. I enjoy playing it (and actually I do respec a lot) but I don't know where Blizzard is going with them. I see how much easier a time the druids and protection paladins have with tanking heroics -- they just have vastly better tanking mechanics to work with. Tanking heroics on a warrior is hard work and honestly, I don't find it very fun.
On the druid, it's great. I'm raiding with her now and it wasn't too hard to gear up. I can solo fine, I'm great in PvP, tree druids are not really the best choice for solo healing heroics but I can do it ... and all that without respeccing. Also my druid scales very nicely with gear and has a solid raid niche with the HoTs.
I play a warrior and I have a resto druid alt, and I like both of them. I've tanked Karazahan a lot and also played my warrior as fury there when I wanted a break. Definitely try off-tanking Kara if you can, I think it's a lot of fun.
But I feel ambivalent about the warrior. I enjoy playing it (and actually I do respec a lot) but I don't know where Blizzard is going with them. I see how much easier a time the druids and protection paladins have with tanking heroics -- they just have vastly better tanking mechanics to work with. Tanking heroics on a warrior is hard work and honestly, I don't find it very fun.
On the druid, it's great. I'm raiding with her now and it wasn't too hard to gear up. I can solo fine, I'm great in PvP, tree druids are not really the best choice for solo healing heroics but I can do it ... and all that without respeccing. Also my druid scales very nicely with gear and has a solid raid niche with the HoTs.
Would it help maybe if warriors could train or quest to unlock a second talent set? I mean, instead of having to shell out the cash to fully respecialize, they could simply talk to a trainer and switch between two different talent specs entirely?
Honestly, it might be the easiest solution to the problem of warrior soloing. They would still have to enter a major city and talk to their class trainer, so it's not like they'd be able to switch on the fly, but it would allow warriors a lot more freedom in what they chose to do.
Another option would be to simply have either Battle Stance or Berserker Stance convert some portion of +def to +AP, or provide Battle Stance with an ability that did the same as a temporary buff.
Honestly, it might be the easiest solution to the problem of warrior soloing. They would still have to enter a major city and talk to their class trainer, so it's not like they'd be able to switch on the fly, but it would allow warriors a lot more freedom in what they chose to do.
Another option would be to simply have either Battle Stance or Berserker Stance convert some portion of +def to +AP, or provide Battle Stance with an ability that did the same as a temporary buff.
# posted by : 19/2/08 12:51
: 19/2/08 12:51
I dropped my warrior into the PvP only role. I used to do all kinds of things with him, got pretty much tier4/5 gear for tanking and dpsing, and full PvP gear including the season 3 weapon. The problem is the need to respec all the time, so I rather play other classes when not PvPing.
I dont see Blizzard going anywhere with the problem, its been this way since launch and it will keep on being a poor situation. I would recommend ditching the roles of warrioring for the more hardcore players who enjoy farming gold for respec and repair costs.
Its a lot nicer to have a class which can perform well in multiple roles for free as main.
I dont see Blizzard going anywhere with the problem, its been this way since launch and it will keep on being a poor situation. I would recommend ditching the roles of warrioring for the more hardcore players who enjoy farming gold for respec and repair costs.
Its a lot nicer to have a class which can perform well in multiple roles for free as main.
# posted by : 19/2/08 12:58
: 19/2/08 12:58
My warrior was my 2nd 60 pre-TBC, but my 3rd 70. I will likely be dropping the character in WotLK, perhaps to replace him with a DK, perhaps not.
The problem is, for anything I might want to do with my warrior, my Paladin is better geared / suited. AND my Paladin can heal.
Warrior are too dependant on gear to be a good class for casual players, IMO.
The problem is, for anything I might want to do with my warrior, my Paladin is better geared / suited. AND my Paladin can heal.
Warrior are too dependant on gear to be a good class for casual players, IMO.
# posted by : 19/2/08 16:06
: 19/2/08 16:06
You can probably fiddle around with the talent builds a bit to get a warrior that can both solo pretty well and tank 5-man groups, though that might not be your preference, and raids and PvP would almost certainly be out.
It does seem to be an issue in general with non-DPS characters (except protection paladins higher up in level) that the other roles are quite specialized.
It does seem to be an issue in general with non-DPS characters (except protection paladins higher up in level) that the other roles are quite specialized.
Warriors...if you play a warrior as a dps warrior in PvE you're crazy. They need better gear to do comprable damage to the dps classes (mage, rogue, hunter). They have no method of lowering/losing agro unlike said dps classes. They have no utility (sap, sheep, traps, pet, etc).
If you're building a group you'd be insane to ever take a dps warrior over a comprable dps class. Period.
What does that tell you? Warriors are tanks, if you make a dps warrior prepare for frustration at best.
Death Knights are also going to be a tank class, get used to it. Blizz has said that's what they were chosen as the first hero class for in interviews. They will most likely be able to dps similarly to warriors which is to say be the worst possible dps slot choice for a group.
If you're building a group you'd be insane to ever take a dps warrior over a comprable dps class. Period.
What does that tell you? Warriors are tanks, if you make a dps warrior prepare for frustration at best.
Death Knights are also going to be a tank class, get used to it. Blizz has said that's what they were chosen as the first hero class for in interviews. They will most likely be able to dps similarly to warriors which is to say be the worst possible dps slot choice for a group.
Excellent topic!
In TBC I have played a shadow priest as my 'main' (how people know me in-game), but my first character, first to 60, and first to 70 was my trusty warrior. I leveled 60-70 as Arms, mostly solo, and really enjoyed the experience. I hit 70, gearing as a tank, re-specced prot, and then my warrior began to gather dust for various reasons that I won't bother to detail.
As I have mentioned before, I PvP a lot. And I have come to understand firsthand that a warrior is quite powerful in PvP. So I have recently undertaken to reinvent my warrior as a PvP toon. I balked at first because of the timelines, knowing that it is likely that I'll only get about halfway-geared before WotLK releases, but recently I decided to go for it (rather than continue to replace epics with epics on the shadow priest). So I laid out a plan to gear with a combination of BG and Arena, and have found it to be pretty fun so far.
Even a warrior geared as a PvE tank and an Arms/Prot hybrid spec survives surprisingly well in PvP. I initially thought that I'd only be useful in AV, but find that a hard-to-kill melee target that gets a heal every-so-often can really help the group as a combination of first-target and damage-soak. I get few killing blows, but the ranged toons and healers really appreciate my charging in and keeping the enemy engaged and off-balance with stuns, hamstrings, intimidating shouts, mortal strikes, concussion blows, and just being the first thing that an enemy tab-T will target. And in that role, with no PvP gear at all, I still don't die much more often than the other toons.
So I see a PvP career in my warrior's future (it remains to be seen where the death knight will fit into PvP). Given my start, I should be able to score his first epics, probably four from PvP/crafting/rep, in about two more weeks -- and with new weapons, a new spec, and lots more AP and Crit, he can't help but just get better and better.
In TBC I have played a shadow priest as my 'main' (how people know me in-game), but my first character, first to 60, and first to 70 was my trusty warrior. I leveled 60-70 as Arms, mostly solo, and really enjoyed the experience. I hit 70, gearing as a tank, re-specced prot, and then my warrior began to gather dust for various reasons that I won't bother to detail.
As I have mentioned before, I PvP a lot. And I have come to understand firsthand that a warrior is quite powerful in PvP. So I have recently undertaken to reinvent my warrior as a PvP toon. I balked at first because of the timelines, knowing that it is likely that I'll only get about halfway-geared before WotLK releases, but recently I decided to go for it (rather than continue to replace epics with epics on the shadow priest). So I laid out a plan to gear with a combination of BG and Arena, and have found it to be pretty fun so far.
Even a warrior geared as a PvE tank and an Arms/Prot hybrid spec survives surprisingly well in PvP. I initially thought that I'd only be useful in AV, but find that a hard-to-kill melee target that gets a heal every-so-often can really help the group as a combination of first-target and damage-soak. I get few killing blows, but the ranged toons and healers really appreciate my charging in and keeping the enemy engaged and off-balance with stuns, hamstrings, intimidating shouts, mortal strikes, concussion blows, and just being the first thing that an enemy tab-T will target. And in that role, with no PvP gear at all, I still don't die much more often than the other toons.
So I see a PvP career in my warrior's future (it remains to be seen where the death knight will fit into PvP). Given my start, I should be able to score his first epics, probably four from PvP/crafting/rep, in about two more weeks -- and with new weapons, a new spec, and lots more AP and Crit, he can't help but just get better and better.
# posted by : 19/2/08 16:36
: 19/2/08 16:36
If you raid, you need to play a Prot tank. If you PvP, you need to spec Arms. For leveling, Fury works best but you can do it Arms fine. The trees are so defined to keep each spec type from being overpowered in relation to the other classes. This is because abilities in one tree make abilities in other trees VERY powerful. You don’t get any cross-over in the end-game since Arms is gimped as a tank, and Prot warriors in PvP are good for little except spamming disarm and guarding the flag until someone else shows up. Fury is the forgotten step-child of the group. They are very viable in the amount of DPS they can contribute, but other classes simply do it better. Rogues handle threat better and can CC. Feral Druids can tank better and do almost comparable DPS. The future of warriors will pretty much continue work out the same way. Arms will still dominate in PvP, Prot Tanks will still be the best mutli-purpose tank. The introduction of the DK won’t change that dynamic much. The best evidence in my mind to support this are the following: 1) Deathwish and Imp Intercept were moved to Arms and buffed warrior PvP while gimping any PvP value a Fury warrior has, 2) In return, Fury got buffs to mult-target attacks which is largely only good for leveling or soloing since doing in a group is simply retarded, and 3) Blizzard has repeatedly said they intend to make soloing easier for Prot spec. My solution for #3 is to make Imp Sunder Armor strip more AC from targets in addition to lowering rage cost. This wouldn’t impact the other trees and increase the relative value of melee DPS in Raids (another issue).
For Attumen, Moroes, Maiden and Opera (and their trash) main tanking Kara isn't that hard.
The trickiest part is knowing how to do the trash pulls, and since you've been in Kara with your priest you'll have some idea of how they go and for the ones that you don't know the trick is: crowd control as much as possible. Shackles FTW!
If there aren't enough shackles, use the off-tank. That should leave you with only a couple of mobs to handle, and if you've tanked Heroic Ramps or Vanilla Shattered Halls you're good enough to deal with them.
Tanks, including off-tanks, get geared up pretty quickly, not just because everyone wants the tank geared but because only Warriors and Paladins are using plate and there's a lot of good tanking plate in Kara.
Gearing up a cloth-wearer is much harder because most DPS is either limited to cloth or interested in cloth pieces for specific gear sets.
I started off-tanking a casual Kara raid in October and I now have a full DPS plate set and am a piece or two away from my tanking plate set. I started in Kara as a full prot spec warrior and as my gear improved I was able to gradually move to a Fury spec with just enough points in Protection to get me to Defiance.
In 2.3 Tactical Mastery changed so that the primary Arms (Mortal Strike) and Fury (Bloodthirst) attacks generate extra threat while in Defensive stance. What this means for an offstank spec is that well-geared you're still a viable tank for vanilla 5-mans.
I suspect that most of the people who tank with Death Knights are going to be players who already have tanks. Tanking seems to be a very specialized role that not a lot of people enjoy and even though there will be all sorts of players rolling Death Knights, I think that most will end up abandoning those toons after a couple of months and going back to their ranged DPS. The people who stick to it are going to be those who already enjoy melee.
The trickiest part is knowing how to do the trash pulls, and since you've been in Kara with your priest you'll have some idea of how they go and for the ones that you don't know the trick is: crowd control as much as possible. Shackles FTW!
If there aren't enough shackles, use the off-tank. That should leave you with only a couple of mobs to handle, and if you've tanked Heroic Ramps or Vanilla Shattered Halls you're good enough to deal with them.
Tanks, including off-tanks, get geared up pretty quickly, not just because everyone wants the tank geared but because only Warriors and Paladins are using plate and there's a lot of good tanking plate in Kara.
Gearing up a cloth-wearer is much harder because most DPS is either limited to cloth or interested in cloth pieces for specific gear sets.
I started off-tanking a casual Kara raid in October and I now have a full DPS plate set and am a piece or two away from my tanking plate set. I started in Kara as a full prot spec warrior and as my gear improved I was able to gradually move to a Fury spec with just enough points in Protection to get me to Defiance.
In 2.3 Tactical Mastery changed so that the primary Arms (Mortal Strike) and Fury (Bloodthirst) attacks generate extra threat while in Defensive stance. What this means for an offstank spec is that well-geared you're still a viable tank for vanilla 5-mans.
I suspect that most of the people who tank with Death Knights are going to be players who already have tanks. Tanking seems to be a very specialized role that not a lot of people enjoy and even though there will be all sorts of players rolling Death Knights, I think that most will end up abandoning those toons after a couple of months and going back to their ranged DPS. The people who stick to it are going to be those who already enjoy melee.
I strongly recommend you try pvping on your mage at 69, before 70. Gear aside, mages don't exactly have it easy, and since you won't have any of the pvp gear, you'll get squashed that much faster. It's not so much for sake of getting the pvp gear before you hit 70, that would take a while, and I'm sure you want to hit 70 sooner rather than later. It's just that if you do pvp as you hit 70, you'll be left with a very bad taste in your mouth. =/
# posted by : 19/2/08 20:28
: 19/2/08 20:28
All my warriors have become alts compared to my healing characters in all the games I've played. I suspect its for similar reasons. Not as much fun in pvp or in as high demand for grouping/raiding as healers. I am hoping with Collision detection will come warriors that are able to do some new things.
What are these "Fury" warriors you speak of? Warriors are either PVP Arms or PVE tanks.
# posted by : 20/2/08 22:36
: 20/2/08 22:36
It sounds like you might enjoy tanking as a druid. Much like your mage, we can solo dps and tank in groups using the same spec. Feral druids just need a set of gear for tanking or scratching things up with their kitty claws.
I'm just not sure you'd be up to leveling another character.
I'm just not sure you'd be up to leveling another character.
# posted by : 21/2/08 02:01
: 21/2/08 02:01
Wow, an entire comment thread that basically says "Fury warriors need massive buffs to be equal to other DPSers", you don't see that very often. The feral druid at the end especially makes the case for Arms and Fury warriors being made equal to ferals in their tanking roles.
As for what to do with your warrior... well, if you don't want to dedicate the time and spec to PvP, tanking is basically it. Only very well geared fury warriors get to shine anymore.
As for what to do with your warrior... well, if you don't want to dedicate the time and spec to PvP, tanking is basically it. Only very well geared fury warriors get to shine anymore.
Hi Tobold,
Interesting post. I agree with the above poster, there is no such thing as "casual tanking" in WoW. Tanks are too dependent on their gear, and groups/raids are too dependent on the tank(s) being able to survive the beating.
So there's two possibilities :
a) play your warrior in a more hardcore style for a while, in order for him to acquire the proper gear to MT Karazhan (and beyond)
b) stay casual and engage in a OT career. When not tanking, you should switch to fury-style gear to do respectable damage with Devastate.
Hope it helps.
Interesting post. I agree with the above poster, there is no such thing as "casual tanking" in WoW. Tanks are too dependent on their gear, and groups/raids are too dependent on the tank(s) being able to survive the beating.
So there's two possibilities :
a) play your warrior in a more hardcore style for a while, in order for him to acquire the proper gear to MT Karazhan (and beyond)
b) stay casual and engage in a OT career. When not tanking, you should switch to fury-style gear to do respectable damage with Devastate.
Hope it helps.
# posted by : 22/2/08 16:10
: 22/2/08 16:10
in my case my first ever char a warrior which i leveled prot from 1-70 got fed up paying enormous repair bills and not finding descent players to group with ( i'm on a low populated server) decided one day to spec ms/flurry. Not only did i enjoy it but loved it so much that my warrior became my main again ( also playing a raiding shadow priest:D). The complexity of a dps warrior mashing buttons, stance dancing, attack, counter-attack keep me glued in my sit queuing in bg for 2 months. When he completed the full s1 set and vindicator set i found him with 1600 ap and 35% crit rate. He ruled the bg's, most of the time have the most killing blows and damage done.
The challenge is not there anymore and i decided that i want to tank again. To my surprise i just realized that i sold all of my tanking gear in frustration 2 months ago. Before i spec dps i have decent tanking gear of blues and heroic epics, got 494 defense and around 12k health. The thought of farming those again send shivers down this night elf's spine.
Then found out that 222 resilience would also make you uncrittable. I nearly jump up and down when i found this to be true (by a macro to calculate if you are uncrittable, i'm -6 uncrittable in my full s1 gear). So i spec protect and wearing my pvp gear found myself with 13.5k of health, 17k armor and virtually uncrittable. My joy this day is grouping with elitist jerks in heroics run and proving to them that you can tank without a single +defense gear.
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The challenge is not there anymore and i decided that i want to tank again. To my surprise i just realized that i sold all of my tanking gear in frustration 2 months ago. Before i spec dps i have decent tanking gear of blues and heroic epics, got 494 defense and around 12k health. The thought of farming those again send shivers down this night elf's spine.
Then found out that 222 resilience would also make you uncrittable. I nearly jump up and down when i found this to be true (by a macro to calculate if you are uncrittable, i'm -6 uncrittable in my full s1 gear). So i spec protect and wearing my pvp gear found myself with 13.5k of health, 17k armor and virtually uncrittable. My joy this day is grouping with elitist jerks in heroics run and proving to them that you can tank without a single +defense gear.
# posted by : 26/2/08 06:04
: 26/2/08 06:04<< Home
