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Friday, February 08, 2008
WoW battleground rewards
Cap'n John blogged about WoW battlegrounds; he finds that there is a mismatch between the number of marks earned and the amount of honor earned. By the time he has the honor he needs to buy the weapons he wants, he has far more marks than he needs, even if he loses all the time and gets only 1 mark of victory per battle. Well, apparently Blizzard noticed the same problem, and is effectively increasing the amount of honor points gained in patch 2.4, by removing the diminishing returns rule. Previously you received less and less honor if you killed the same player on a battleground repeatedly. Now you'll always get the same amount, until you killed him 50 times, and then you get nothing. The added advantage is that with the new way of calculating honor, the exact honor point score can be displayed immediately, not just an estimate. No more finding yourself short a few hundred points when the day before you had an estimate of a few thousand points over the cost of what you want to buy.
I haven't checked the PvP rewards lately, as I didn't participate in PvP since before TBC came out. But at that time you could buy some rewards with just marks, no honor. My troll warrior is riding a kodo bought like that, as I didn't like the look of the raptor. So excess marks aren't necessarily a problem.
But Cap'n John also discusses the way premade groups cheat in battlegrounds. Apparently they just send in one member to check whether the enemy is another premade or a pickup group. If its a premade, the one guy quits the battleground and the premade group looks for an easier target. If its an easy to beat pickup group, the rest of the premade group enters. Cap'n John has some very reasonable suggestions on how to stop that exploit, for example by not showing the enemy group before the battle starts.
I'm usually all for using clever strategies in MMORPGs. But PvP is somewhat different, because when that premade group finds a way to select their opponent, it is other players who suffer as a result. But curiously Blizzard is doing quite a good job to prevent any exploits in PvE, while all the stories you hear about PvP are full of stories of people exploiting the system and hurting other players.
In a recent comment Doeg explained how joining a guild that has Karazhan "on farm" is easier epics than doing PvP. True, but first of all you'd need to find people who are willing to drag you through Karazhan while you are wearing bad gear and are underperforming as a result. *That's* what I'd call "welfare epics", you rely on the welfare of the guild that has Karazhan on farm to get yourself equipped. And second that guild is probably expecting something from you in return, like being willing to help them in their 25-man raids, where you'll do a lot of wiping and get a lot fewer epics. WoW battlegrounds are currently quite popular because you can get epics without owing other players. But the more I read about what is going on in WoW battlegrounds, the more I get the impression that the majority of players isn't there to have fun. PvP becomes a simple exercise of minmaxing, of getting the most epics per time unit, fun be damned. My guild chat is full of people doing PvP but complaining about it all day. I don't think that is healthy. I prefer raiding, with or without farm status, even if sometimes I spend an evening doing nothing but wiping and paying repair bills. A MMORPG should be about cooperative multiplayer gameplay, not about getting the best gear by cheating.
- posted by Tobold @ 8:28 AM Permanent Link
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PvP in WoW is fun in some aspects. There are little moments of fun when you get that chance to do something interesting in a battleground, but it is very rare.
The best part of the fun is going up the learning curve of the arena system, find an arena partner and start training together for a few hundred games and you get a quite enjoyable experience. The problem I found after doing that myself is that the game mechanics are very poor for this type of play.
Generally a player in an evenly matched PvP game (such as chess) always has the oppourtunity to make his move based on the tactical layout of the situation. In WoW or any standard mmorpg this is not the case, the game happens about executing the most powerful ability available at all times within the global cooldown or between various series of being crowd controlled. Imagine a game of chess where you win by always moving the piece the farthest to the left, but you can only move this piece every 1.5 seconds and sometimes you randomly fail to move your piece and "miss". The winner becomes the player with the least amount of wasted time. This fails as fun system. This is what happens in the arena at the rating level where all players have grokked the system. Its like playing poker with open cards, you know what your opponent will do as a counter move to every of your moves. All the available options become eliminated by the optimal move being well known by all parties.
Fun PvP as I have experience in several mmorpg's lies on the strategical level. Do you really want to fight for this particular objective now? Or are you better off waiting for more troops so victory is more likely etc. Going down to this micromanagement level that WoW is doing with the arena is like applying a screwdriver to hammering nails, it feels awkward and gets crooked fast. Despite these flaws it keeps on being good entertainment because the loot you get is incredibly good and motivates tons of players to grind the system.
The best part of the fun is going up the learning curve of the arena system, find an arena partner and start training together for a few hundred games and you get a quite enjoyable experience. The problem I found after doing that myself is that the game mechanics are very poor for this type of play.
Generally a player in an evenly matched PvP game (such as chess) always has the oppourtunity to make his move based on the tactical layout of the situation. In WoW or any standard mmorpg this is not the case, the game happens about executing the most powerful ability available at all times within the global cooldown or between various series of being crowd controlled. Imagine a game of chess where you win by always moving the piece the farthest to the left, but you can only move this piece every 1.5 seconds and sometimes you randomly fail to move your piece and "miss". The winner becomes the player with the least amount of wasted time. This fails as fun system. This is what happens in the arena at the rating level where all players have grokked the system. Its like playing poker with open cards, you know what your opponent will do as a counter move to every of your moves. All the available options become eliminated by the optimal move being well known by all parties.
Fun PvP as I have experience in several mmorpg's lies on the strategical level. Do you really want to fight for this particular objective now? Or are you better off waiting for more troops so victory is more likely etc. Going down to this micromanagement level that WoW is doing with the arena is like applying a screwdriver to hammering nails, it feels awkward and gets crooked fast. Despite these flaws it keeps on being good entertainment because the loot you get is incredibly good and motivates tons of players to grind the system.
# posted by 
: 8/2/08 09:59
: 8/2/08 09:59
I'm mostly a PvE player, so if I do battlegrounds, there's a specific item that I want for a specific use. You bet I'll be optimizing my time and effort.
It would be a different story if there weren't those killjoy moments in BGs. Like a 2-2 stalemate in WSG where both flags have been taken and both teams have 9 people on defense. Or an AB where I get stuck guarding the farm against that lone player that attacks the farm every 5 minutes. That leaves me 4 minutes and 50 seconds of idling for every 10 seconds of action.
AV is better in that regard, since I can destroy a tower or two and always get at least some honor.
It would be a different story if there weren't those killjoy moments in BGs. Like a 2-2 stalemate in WSG where both flags have been taken and both teams have 9 people on defense. Or an AB where I get stuck guarding the farm against that lone player that attacks the farm every 5 minutes. That leaves me 4 minutes and 50 seconds of idling for every 10 seconds of action.
AV is better in that regard, since I can destroy a tower or two and always get at least some honor.
I love that (true) story of cheating premades in BGs. Whenever I meet someone of those "pvp-roxxors-are-the-only-true-gods-because-they-beat-other-players-not- dumb-machines-guys" I simply tell him this little story and he gets mad like hell because I destroyed his heroes *laughs evil*.
Battlegrounds really aren't much fun. Sure, a quick little win in Alterac is fun but to get something out of it you have to farm it. 6 ours of Alterac with some zerg-games is no fun, its worse than anything you could do at McDonald's. But even that is a piece of cake against two equal groups meeting in Warsong. Those matches can last hours and at the end even the winner gets less honor than a random loser in Alterac.
But arena can be fun :)
Battlegrounds really aren't much fun. Sure, a quick little win in Alterac is fun but to get something out of it you have to farm it. 6 ours of Alterac with some zerg-games is no fun, its worse than anything you could do at McDonald's. But even that is a piece of cake against two equal groups meeting in Warsong. Those matches can last hours and at the end even the winner gets less honor than a random loser in Alterac.
But arena can be fun :)
# posted by : 8/2/08 12:05
: 8/2/08 12:05
"farm"...
...means repeat un-engaging content continuously so that you can have fun later.
Why are people tolerant of games they have to endure to enjoy?
...means repeat un-engaging content continuously so that you can have fun later.
Why are people tolerant of games they have to endure to enjoy?
# posted by : 8/2/08 12:59
: 8/2/08 12:59
"A MMORPG should be about cooperative multiplayer gameplay, not about getting the best gear by cheating."
Tobold you do realize you are talking about WoW right? The champion of single player 'all about me' gameplay?
And that BG strategy used by pre-mades has been around for as long as BG's have been around. Premade vs Premade defeats the purpose of both groups, that being quick easy wins to get honor. If you actually value PvP for the fun/challenge of it, you don't play WoW.
Tobold you do realize you are talking about WoW right? The champion of single player 'all about me' gameplay?
And that BG strategy used by pre-mades has been around for as long as BG's have been around. Premade vs Premade defeats the purpose of both groups, that being quick easy wins to get honor. If you actually value PvP for the fun/challenge of it, you don't play WoW.
# posted by : 8/2/08 14:53
: 8/2/08 14:53
The champion of single player 'all about me' gameplay?
You never entered a WoW dungeon? WoW is certainly good to the solo player, but it is *also* the champion of cooperative multiplayer gaming. I haven't played in groups so much since the original Everquest.
You never entered a WoW dungeon? WoW is certainly good to the solo player, but it is *also* the champion of cooperative multiplayer gaming. I haven't played in groups so much since the original Everquest.
I'm in the BGs to have fun.
And sometimes they actually are fun :)
But as my wife would say (paraphrased), after the leveling game, the endgame is a disappointment.
I also wonder about the patch 2.4 Arena changes - frankly, given Blizzard's various attempted tweaks to PvP, such as the notorious failure of the AV 'AFK-farmer' "solution", and ratings matching in Arena, all-talk-no-action about PvP gear-matching, gross underestimates of honor, etc, I'm not holding my breath. BG twinks and pre-mades are obviously sanctioned by Blizzard; otherwise they would have put something in place to stop the practices. I do wonder why there is still not a Join As Group option for AV; I guess that's just another of the inexplicable arbitrary PvP decisions of Blizzard.
And patch 2.4, from what I read, will supposedly be a move toward Arena balance and even e-sport acceptance?
In my limited experience, "Arena" and "Balance" are antonyms, as are MMO "PvP" and "Balance".
An additional major frustration of Arena is that all that time spent in a supposedly-PvP profession, engineering, is pretty much entirely wasted in Arena. Can't use tailoring nets. Can use bandages. Can't use potions. Can buff with spells "for free" (but still eats your spell mats). Can't eat before the match.
Arena 'terms and conditions' are about as self-explanatory as the papers you sign when you buy a house.
It strikes me as quite odd that so many things are arbitrarily off limits in Arena, supposedly for "balance", while (from what I can tell) the Arena remains so badly imbalanced! The rating system is nice at first look, until you see that the 'haves' will have more, faster, and the 'have-nots' will have to slog it out bottom-feeding -- especially if you had the lack of foresight (tongue firmly in cheek) to roll the 'wrong' class or gear-out the 'wrong' spec for Arena...
WoW PvP can be fun.
But if it's skill-based PvP you're after, WoW is definitely NOT the game.
An aside...
Excess Badge of Justice? Buy a nether.
Excess Mark of Honor? Buy a potion :)
And sometimes they actually are fun :)
But as my wife would say (paraphrased), after the leveling game, the endgame is a disappointment.
I also wonder about the patch 2.4 Arena changes - frankly, given Blizzard's various attempted tweaks to PvP, such as the notorious failure of the AV 'AFK-farmer' "solution", and ratings matching in Arena, all-talk-no-action about PvP gear-matching, gross underestimates of honor, etc, I'm not holding my breath. BG twinks and pre-mades are obviously sanctioned by Blizzard; otherwise they would have put something in place to stop the practices. I do wonder why there is still not a Join As Group option for AV; I guess that's just another of the inexplicable arbitrary PvP decisions of Blizzard.
And patch 2.4, from what I read, will supposedly be a move toward Arena balance and even e-sport acceptance?
In my limited experience, "Arena" and "Balance" are antonyms, as are MMO "PvP" and "Balance".
An additional major frustration of Arena is that all that time spent in a supposedly-PvP profession, engineering, is pretty much entirely wasted in Arena. Can't use tailoring nets. Can use bandages. Can't use potions. Can buff with spells "for free" (but still eats your spell mats). Can't eat before the match.
Arena 'terms and conditions' are about as self-explanatory as the papers you sign when you buy a house.
It strikes me as quite odd that so many things are arbitrarily off limits in Arena, supposedly for "balance", while (from what I can tell) the Arena remains so badly imbalanced! The rating system is nice at first look, until you see that the 'haves' will have more, faster, and the 'have-nots' will have to slog it out bottom-feeding -- especially if you had the lack of foresight (tongue firmly in cheek) to roll the 'wrong' class or gear-out the 'wrong' spec for Arena...
WoW PvP can be fun.
But if it's skill-based PvP you're after, WoW is definitely NOT the game.
An aside...
Excess Badge of Justice? Buy a nether.
Excess Mark of Honor? Buy a potion :)
# posted by : 8/2/08 15:51
: 8/2/08 15:51
"farm"...
...means repeat un-engaging content continuously so that you can have fun later.
Why are people tolerant of games they have to endure to enjoy?
Eh. It does and it doesn't. When people talk about a raid being on farm-status, it doesn't necessarily mean they don't enjoy it, just that they're going in confident that they're going to win, based on the history of winning.
That doesn't mean it can't be fun. That doesn't mean that the fights don't still require you to pay attention.
Not to mention that the difference between a farming raid run and 'farming' for motes or cloth or gold or anything is that the former is done in a community.
So if you're going in with people you like, a farming raid can actually be extraordinarily fun. The fact that people know their roles in the raid and you can trust them to fulfill it means that it can be a casual, relaxed atmosphere - lots of joking, fun, pranks. A farming raid is boring and dull only if you're not doing it right, imo.
...means repeat un-engaging content continuously so that you can have fun later.
Why are people tolerant of games they have to endure to enjoy?
Eh. It does and it doesn't. When people talk about a raid being on farm-status, it doesn't necessarily mean they don't enjoy it, just that they're going in confident that they're going to win, based on the history of winning.
That doesn't mean it can't be fun. That doesn't mean that the fights don't still require you to pay attention.
Not to mention that the difference between a farming raid run and 'farming' for motes or cloth or gold or anything is that the former is done in a community.
So if you're going in with people you like, a farming raid can actually be extraordinarily fun. The fact that people know their roles in the raid and you can trust them to fulfill it means that it can be a casual, relaxed atmosphere - lots of joking, fun, pranks. A farming raid is boring and dull only if you're not doing it right, imo.
# posted by : 8/2/08 16:26
: 8/2/08 16:26
Bottom line, though is that the reason we farm (solo, BGs, Arena, raid, daily quest, whatever) is items/gear.
# posted by : 8/2/08 16:44
: 8/2/08 16:44
Ah yes, this brings back memories of people in and out of our guild who wanted to be "dragged" through dungeons to get easy lewt. True "welfare" gear indeed. Nice one Toby. I enjoy pvp in wow btw as long as each side has something resembling a chance of success... It doesn't have to be fair it just has to be fun.
The reason why you see more people complaining about PvP than PvE is there mere fact of number of touchpoints.
In PvE, a boss will probably be the only thing that could bring you some kind of ill will (aka wipe, randomness, etc). In a typical night run, you'll get through maybe 8-10 bosses. That is 8-10 times where there is a possibility of aggravation.
In PvP, on the other hand, there are thousands of touchpoints. Every single time you run into a red and fight, there is a chance for you to die and thus a chance for you to build up ill will. Since there are so many more chances for you to die, there is more chance for you to be aggravated.
And to be honest, PvP isn't for every one, you have to be able to roll with the punches and realize sometimes someone gets the jump on you and even with all the practice in the world, there isn't anything you can do sometimes. People are unable to relinquish this control, and thus become aggrevated.
More so than PvE.
In PvE, a boss will probably be the only thing that could bring you some kind of ill will (aka wipe, randomness, etc). In a typical night run, you'll get through maybe 8-10 bosses. That is 8-10 times where there is a possibility of aggravation.
In PvP, on the other hand, there are thousands of touchpoints. Every single time you run into a red and fight, there is a chance for you to die and thus a chance for you to build up ill will. Since there are so many more chances for you to die, there is more chance for you to be aggravated.
And to be honest, PvP isn't for every one, you have to be able to roll with the punches and realize sometimes someone gets the jump on you and even with all the practice in the world, there isn't anything you can do sometimes. People are unable to relinquish this control, and thus become aggrevated.
More so than PvE.
But Cap'n John also discusses the way premade groups cheat in battlegrounds. Apparently they just send in one member to check whether the enemy is another premade or a pickup group. If its a premade, the one guy quits the battleground and the premade group looks for an easier target. If its an easy to beat pickup group, the rest of the premade group enters. Cap'n John has some very reasonable suggestions on how to stop that exploit, for example by not showing the enemy group before the battle starts.
This has been going on since AV launched.
Going down to this micromanagement level that WoW is doing with the arena is like applying a screwdriver to hammering nails
That is the best analogy for wow pvp I've heard yet
This has been going on since AV launched.
Going down to this micromanagement level that WoW is doing with the arena is like applying a screwdriver to hammering nails
That is the best analogy for wow pvp I've heard yet
what i cant understand its if they dont like the game, why they keep playing
i tried Ogame, it was a Bs farming and alliances crap, i dont liked it i leaved
i played wow, after TBC my raiding comunity was splitted destroyed, blizzard stated that Wow classes where unbalanced, i didnt like it
just stopped paying and playing
some comments about comments:
for wolfe
the game was based in pve killing mainly instances and dragons, they just did pvp cause its cheaper to add content than pve
for shalkis
the pvp honor epics destroy the meaning of the crafting items and the farming
for kiseran
of course they are not fun, is a mindless farm,just check how many BGs counterstrike had, Dozens of them and wow just 4? after how
much time?¿
total agreed with anon and syncaine
for doeg
arenas and pvp destroy crafting and pve cause the game was intended like a PVE game
This is just a example of how capitalize a game destroy some types of fun
another example is the tabletops warhammer games, they just buff some minis to get sales, and the game is pvp cause is much cheaper to design that than to do campaigns and interesting situations for the game
i tried Ogame, it was a Bs farming and alliances crap, i dont liked it i leaved
i played wow, after TBC my raiding comunity was splitted destroyed, blizzard stated that Wow classes where unbalanced, i didnt like it
just stopped paying and playing
some comments about comments:
for wolfe
the game was based in pve killing mainly instances and dragons, they just did pvp cause its cheaper to add content than pve
for shalkis
the pvp honor epics destroy the meaning of the crafting items and the farming
for kiseran
of course they are not fun, is a mindless farm,just check how many BGs counterstrike had, Dozens of them and wow just 4? after how
much time?¿
total agreed with anon and syncaine
for doeg
arenas and pvp destroy crafting and pve cause the game was intended like a PVE game
This is just a example of how capitalize a game destroy some types of fun
another example is the tabletops warhammer games, they just buff some minis to get sales, and the game is pvp cause is much cheaper to design that than to do campaigns and interesting situations for the game
Context: I am a casual player who has been playing for a little over 1 year. My main is an ally 65 prot pally.
I find BGs to be more fun than almost anything else I have done in WoW. I only started playing BGs when I hit 50 or so, and I went into AV for the first time. Maybe I'll get bored of it eventually, but even with all of the QQing around AV balance, I find that I enjoy BG more than leveling my character (even though to make a significant contribution I need to heal offspec in BG). PvP just has a randomness that is more appealing to me than PvE. As a prot pally, you almost never die in non-instance PvE unless you forget to use one of your panic buttons, whereas in PvP you really have to pay attention.
Obviously I haven't done any raiding yet, not being 70, but so far the only other part of the PvE game I would compare to BG on the fun scale is boss fights in instances. However, in order to get to a boss fight, you need to 1) find a group, 2) make sure the group does not suck too badly, and 3) clear trash before you can actually get to a boss fight, whereas getting into a BG is a matter of hitting one button. Even after I get to raiding level, as a casual player I don't know if I'm ever going to devote the time to that, whereas it's easy to run BG for 30 minutes or an hour a night.
I find BGs to be more fun than almost anything else I have done in WoW. I only started playing BGs when I hit 50 or so, and I went into AV for the first time. Maybe I'll get bored of it eventually, but even with all of the QQing around AV balance, I find that I enjoy BG more than leveling my character (even though to make a significant contribution I need to heal offspec in BG). PvP just has a randomness that is more appealing to me than PvE. As a prot pally, you almost never die in non-instance PvE unless you forget to use one of your panic buttons, whereas in PvP you really have to pay attention.
Obviously I haven't done any raiding yet, not being 70, but so far the only other part of the PvE game I would compare to BG on the fun scale is boss fights in instances. However, in order to get to a boss fight, you need to 1) find a group, 2) make sure the group does not suck too badly, and 3) clear trash before you can actually get to a boss fight, whereas getting into a BG is a matter of hitting one button. Even after I get to raiding level, as a casual player I don't know if I'm ever going to devote the time to that, whereas it's easy to run BG for 30 minutes or an hour a night.
# posted by : 8/2/08 22:15
: 8/2/08 22:15
I'd hardly say scanning what's in the BG is "cheating." Cheating implies you're breaking the rules of the game, whereas checking for premades before committing your group is perfectly fair and legitimate.
Also, the way it's usually done is everyone EXCEPT the leader goes in. If it isn't a premade, the leader will go in. If it is a premade, then the leader will queue for the "alternative" 15 man BG (e.g. if you just went into Eye, the leader will queue for AB) so that you have a way out if the battle against a premade doesn't go your way.
Curiously, as a player on Mal'Ganis horde, I generally find enemy premades almost always leave before my premade, and thus I never even bother with the whole scouting deal. Of course, the fact that my premade generally beats any group that it faces probably helps my cause (we're generally a full 15 on vent, with several Gladiator-level arena geared to the teeth players in our group).
Nonetheless, as I've been gearing up my Paladin (hit 70 less than a month ago), I find premades invaluable as they drastically reduce the amount of time needed to farm honor to get to the 350+ resilience level you need to be "on par" in Arenas. That said, I do wish honor farming wasn't so grindy and slow, since this is my 3rd 70 and any sense of wonderment at the BGs has long ago faded, and I'm just in it for honor/hour at this point. It's still fun, yes, but the amount needed to get all the gear I need to get "on par" in Arena tends to sap the fun.
Also, the way it's usually done is everyone EXCEPT the leader goes in. If it isn't a premade, the leader will go in. If it is a premade, then the leader will queue for the "alternative" 15 man BG (e.g. if you just went into Eye, the leader will queue for AB) so that you have a way out if the battle against a premade doesn't go your way.
Curiously, as a player on Mal'Ganis horde, I generally find enemy premades almost always leave before my premade, and thus I never even bother with the whole scouting deal. Of course, the fact that my premade generally beats any group that it faces probably helps my cause (we're generally a full 15 on vent, with several Gladiator-level arena geared to the teeth players in our group).
Nonetheless, as I've been gearing up my Paladin (hit 70 less than a month ago), I find premades invaluable as they drastically reduce the amount of time needed to farm honor to get to the 350+ resilience level you need to be "on par" in Arenas. That said, I do wish honor farming wasn't so grindy and slow, since this is my 3rd 70 and any sense of wonderment at the BGs has long ago faded, and I'm just in it for honor/hour at this point. It's still fun, yes, but the amount needed to get all the gear I need to get "on par" in Arena tends to sap the fun.
# posted by : 8/2/08 22:26
: 8/2/08 22:26
Poeple who have fun in BG's, and play for the sake of it, play twinks.
70 BG's, just a bunch of afk'ers, premades, honor grinders. Completely disappointing.
70 BG's, just a bunch of afk'ers, premades, honor grinders. Completely disappointing.
# posted by : 8/2/08 22:44
: 8/2/08 22:44
Arenas are where the real PvP is at; BGs are just filler to get honor to be able level the playing field a little bit in Arenas.
# posted by : 9/2/08 01:34
: 9/2/08 01:34
Karazhan only requires 2-3 people to be well geared. The tank and 2 healers will suffice. If they are geared and know what they're doing, they can last almost forever.
So long as no one moves during flame wreath or something similarly stupid, every fight except the prince and the dragon should be easy as hell. Epics all around.
So long as no one moves during flame wreath or something similarly stupid, every fight except the prince and the dragon should be easy as hell. Epics all around.
I occurs to me that the flip-side of this is that the PUGs I am with usually /afk out en-masse when they see a premade on the other side.
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# posted by : 11/2/08 15:23
: 11/2/08 15:23<< Home
