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Thursday, March 27, 2008
Encouraging playing a healer or tank
Group combat in World of Warcraft is a mix of damage dealing, aggro management, and healing, with different classes being specialized in those three aspects. But in soloing and PvP only damage dealing really counts. Most aggro management skills to increase or reduce threat don't do anything solo or in PvP. Healing is nice in solo and PvP, but not downright essential. Especially in soloing, healing doesn't get you anywhere, you need to deal damage to kill the mob to do the quest. So from the three different specializations, the damage dealers have obvious advantages: they can use the same talents, gear, spells and abilities in group combat, in solo combat, and in PvP. Meanwhile somebody who specialized in aggro management, like a tank, or in healing, is penalized. Either he has to collect several sets of gear and pay for respecs when he wants to move from grouping to soloing and PvP, or he has to live with being less effective in soloing than the damage dealing classes. Sometimes even both, there is simply no way that you can make lets say a paladin deal as much damage as a rogue or mage in similar quality gear.
Yesterday I was hanging out in the looking for group chat, before I found a guild group going to Magister's Terrace, the new dungeon. And the chat was full of half-complete groups shouting for a healer, a tank, or both. Even in guild chat we regularly have the same problem, healers and tanks are in short supply. Everybody wants a healer and tank to group with, but too few people want to actually play one themselves. For me that is a classical case of people voting with their feet: Everyone knows that by playing a healer or tank you are gimping yourself for solo and PvP, so they tend to rather play classes that are easier to solo.
What I think Blizzard should do is making playing a tank or healer more attractive. That would not only help the players who have a tank or healer, but it would over time also increase the number of tanks and healers in the game, and thus help everyone to find a group. And the key to encouraging people to play a healer or tank is certainly to improve their soloability. Making healing bonus count also as spell damage was a good move in that direction. But patch 2.4 was sadly devoid of any further improvements, especially for tanks.
And of course one frequently discusses point here is the cost and ease of respecs. Patch 2.4 slightly reduced the cost of respecs, you don't have to pay training costs repeatedly in addition to the respec cost. But respec'ing having a cost at all isn't affecting the different classes in the same way. If I would respec my mage from frost to fire, that would be purely for the fun of getting to use different spells. The mage would still be a damage dealer, and in most cases he could still use the same gear. For my protection warrior, a respec is something completely different: I basically switch from being a group character to a solo character. I need two sets of gear to be efficient in both forms, and whatever spec I choose, I become inefficient in the other mode. Nobody wants a fury spec warrior as a tank, they are just not good enough for the job, unless they are completely overgeared for that specific challenge. And the same is true for healers, groups don't want to rely on shadow priests or enhancement shamans for their healing. So why does Blizzard want to have a barrier preventing healers and tanks to switch easily between group and solo mode? It just discourages people from playing one of them in the first place.
Of course playing a healer or tank has one indirect reward: ease of finding a group. As a healer (not necessarily as tank) there is also a good chance that you'll get a raid spot easier than a dps class. But World of Warcraft is not a highly group-centric game, and lately the rewards for soloing (daily quests) and PvP have been significantly improved, while the rewards for grouping didn't get all that much better. And then a vicious cycle kicks in: People find it easier to do PvP, thus groups aren't needed that much, thus healers and tanks aren't needed as much, further reducing the appeal of those classes, making it even harder to find them for a group, which increases the appeal of PvP even more. Unless Blizzard wants to turn WoW into a game which is all about soloing and PvP, they should improve the appeal of playing a healer or tank, as long as there are still some of them left.
- posted by Tobold @ 10:56 AM Permanent Link
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I think you could summarize this problem with two sentences:
- WoW has a lot of solo content.
- WoW's solo content is all about dealing damage.
There are a few nice quests and things you can do beside killing mobs or collecting things where mobs are in your way like the color-game in ogrilla, but WoW lacks solo quests or mobs where healing or tanking is really useful. Every time I log on my healer and can't find an instance or pvp group I have nothing to do. I'm simply useless.
I would really like to see some other improvements than giving healer-gear DPS-abilities.
PS: Thanks for keeping anonymus postings activated.
- WoW has a lot of solo content.
- WoW's solo content is all about dealing damage.
There are a few nice quests and things you can do beside killing mobs or collecting things where mobs are in your way like the color-game in ogrilla, but WoW lacks solo quests or mobs where healing or tanking is really useful. Every time I log on my healer and can't find an instance or pvp group I have nothing to do. I'm simply useless.
I would really like to see some other improvements than giving healer-gear DPS-abilities.
PS: Thanks for keeping anonymus postings activated.
# posted by 
: 27/3/08 12:53
: 27/3/08 12:53
From a design point of view, I like the fact that some character classes are group-friendly, solo-unfriendly. This gives players that like to experience the 'solo' content as a group a niche.
They are a minority, but there are players that prefer group to solo play. Usually, these are players that get together with real-life friends to play together on a regular basis.
I'm also very grateful that in WoW, you are allowed multiple characters per server. So there really is no content that unaccessible so long as you are not dedicated to just one character.
However, it would be really nice if there were more quests that were solable by only healers and/or tanks. Say, quests where you couldn't fight back and just had to survive an encounter or protect an npc but let them finish off the mob's.
They are a minority, but there are players that prefer group to solo play. Usually, these are players that get together with real-life friends to play together on a regular basis.
I'm also very grateful that in WoW, you are allowed multiple characters per server. So there really is no content that unaccessible so long as you are not dedicated to just one character.
However, it would be really nice if there were more quests that were solable by only healers and/or tanks. Say, quests where you couldn't fight back and just had to survive an encounter or protect an npc but let them finish off the mob's.
solution to the tank issues: play a feral druid. Best of both worlds.
Of course, if you're feeling masochistic, play a resto-feral druid, so you can tank and heal and dps as required. You don't get mangle or tree form, but its still doable.
Of course, if you're feeling masochistic, play a resto-feral druid, so you can tank and heal and dps as required. You don't get mangle or tree form, but its still doable.
Maybe I'm just being dim, but this IS WoW we're talking about, after all -- why not just play a tank (or healer) for group play, and have a separate character for solo/PvP play? It was my understanding that this is what people have been doing all along, and what you yourself do... so is this really an issue? Or are people just refusing to play their tank and healer alts, even in groups?
# posted by : 27/3/08 13:54
: 27/3/08 13:54
I'm currently in the process of playing a Warrior and a Mage. Mage is now level 34, Warrior 27. And you know what? I'm having much more fun as a mage. Although I'm stopping after fights, I get free food and drinks to make up for it.
As a warrior, I'm actually getting bored - miss, miss, hit, miss, hit, drink potion, hit, miss, hit. Hurray. Bandage up, next fight - oh wait, no more rage. Duh!
As a warrior, I'm actually getting bored - miss, miss, hit, miss, hit, drink potion, hit, miss, hit. Hurray. Bandage up, next fight - oh wait, no more rage. Duh!
DPS warriors and prot tanks should be one and the same thing - make it so that when DPSing his defence is nerfed, and when tanking his DPS is nerfed. That way he can fulfill both roles.
In D&D you counted on your Warriors to have a very low Armour class (-4 or whatever), so in that repsect they fulfilled the tank role, and at the same time, you needed them to have a decent Longsword +3 or whatever, and plenty of strength so that they could do loads of damage.
I dont see why a warrior in WOW has to be a toothless tank.
In D&D you counted on your Warriors to have a very low Armour class (-4 or whatever), so in that repsect they fulfilled the tank role, and at the same time, you needed them to have a decent Longsword +3 or whatever, and plenty of strength so that they could do loads of damage.
I dont see why a warrior in WOW has to be a toothless tank.
# posted by : 27/3/08 13:58
: 27/3/08 13:58
@Tipa: Theoretically, you could probably do that. I'm sure lots of people do.
But personally, I hate the idea. For one, it means I'd have to level up a second 70 on my PvP server (maddening). Also, I get attached to the character that I've already spent so much time advancing. Why should I have to have a second character just to experience another part of the game?
But personally, I hate the idea. For one, it means I'd have to level up a second 70 on my PvP server (maddening). Also, I get attached to the character that I've already spent so much time advancing. Why should I have to have a second character just to experience another part of the game?
# posted by : 27/3/08 14:18
: 27/3/08 14:18
I'm also very grateful that in WoW, you are allowed multiple characters per server. So there really is no content that unaccessible so long as you are not dedicated to just one character.
and
Maybe I'm just being dim, but this IS WoW we're talking about, after all -- why not just play a tank (or healer) for group play, and have a separate character for solo/PvP play? It was my understanding that this is what people have been doing all along, and what you yourself do... so is this really an issue? Or are people just refusing to play their tank and healer alts, even in groups?
Well, if people were playing their tank and healer alts often enough, there wouldn't be such a constant search for tanks and healers in all possible LFG channels.
And while you can play alts, at some point you have to make decisions and assign priorities. Like when WotLK comes out, and you need to decide what character to level up to 80 first (I doubt many people level several characters in parallel). I'm not sure my tank will be a priority at that point, seeing how the priest will be more wanted in Deathknight groups, and the mage will have easier soloing.
and
Maybe I'm just being dim, but this IS WoW we're talking about, after all -- why not just play a tank (or healer) for group play, and have a separate character for solo/PvP play? It was my understanding that this is what people have been doing all along, and what you yourself do... so is this really an issue? Or are people just refusing to play their tank and healer alts, even in groups?
Well, if people were playing their tank and healer alts often enough, there wouldn't be such a constant search for tanks and healers in all possible LFG channels.
And while you can play alts, at some point you have to make decisions and assign priorities. Like when WotLK comes out, and you need to decide what character to level up to 80 first (I doubt many people level several characters in parallel). I'm not sure my tank will be a priority at that point, seeing how the priest will be more wanted in Deathknight groups, and the mage will have easier soloing.
Being allowed to hold two specs would solve this easily. Make it so you have to talk to a trainer to switch between the two, or put it on a cooldown.
Blizzard designs the game to appeal to everyone, yet if you want to tank or heal you are pigeonholed into that role unless you're willing to shell out 50g every time you want to switch to a more solo-friendly spec. As easy as it is to make gold these days, dps classes aren't burdened by this cost so why should any other role be seemingly punished. Tanks and healers surely want to experience solo content, it would be nice not to have to level an alt just to do so.
Blizzard designs the game to appeal to everyone, yet if you want to tank or heal you are pigeonholed into that role unless you're willing to shell out 50g every time you want to switch to a more solo-friendly spec. As easy as it is to make gold these days, dps classes aren't burdened by this cost so why should any other role be seemingly punished. Tanks and healers surely want to experience solo content, it would be nice not to have to level an alt just to do so.
# posted by : 27/3/08 14:57
: 27/3/08 14:57
I'm leveling a new priest on a high pop server. I never had an issue getting a group with my druid ever. I really only play if I can group. I'll solo for an hour or so and then just log off if I can't find groups. I has taken me till level 43 to get a semi regular group to run instances with. It's a pain. If you level a warrior or healer because you want to group it's still hard to find groups . Then you'll hit 60 and no one will want to run non heroics. Sure Once you are ready for heroics life will get better but lot of tanks and healers just give up before they get there. Why would someone that wants to play that way force themselves through 70 levels of mostly solo content so they can group.
For us "casual" players that can be a year or more just to get there.
For us "casual" players that can be a year or more just to get there.
>> Druids are OP :P
They're no warlocks, but yep, they're pretty damn good, if only because they can do everything a little bit. A 25-druid raid wouldn't get anywhere near as much attention as the 40-priest ony kill I remember from pre-TBC, because its a perfectly sensible proposition.
For example, my 67 feral druid healed the ring of blood event yesterday, with no issues an innervate and the mana potion rewards couldn't handle.
Also, free flying mount ^^
They're no warlocks, but yep, they're pretty damn good, if only because they can do everything a little bit. A 25-druid raid wouldn't get anywhere near as much attention as the 40-priest ony kill I remember from pre-TBC, because its a perfectly sensible proposition.
For example, my 67 feral druid healed the ring of blood event yesterday, with no issues an innervate and the mana potion rewards couldn't handle.
Also, free flying mount ^^
The pure healers and tank, as you rightly point out, are in high demand. Everyone wants them for their groups. So, they pretty much NEVER have a problem finding a group (not bad for them), but that means they gear up very quickly. It doesn't take long before they have everything they need from the lower level content, and then simply get bored and don't want to do it anymore - even for guildies. There simply is nothing in it for them.
My proposed solution it to make no drop and BOE gear TRADABLE BETWEEN CHARACTERS ON THE SAME ACCOUNT !!!
I'm a Hunter, I don't want to play a priest or warrior or any other class, but I wouldn't mind playing a priest if I could give some of that good Hunter loot that drops and no one else wants to my Hunter character. I would happily play the priest (or warrior), knowing it can always get a group, to gear up my Hunter.
It's a win for everyone.
Those people in LFG would always be able to fill out a group, and people would be able to gear up their favorite character. It would also be incentive for people to level up other classes/builds - particularly those hard to find ones like pure tanks and healers.
My proposed solution it to make no drop and BOE gear TRADABLE BETWEEN CHARACTERS ON THE SAME ACCOUNT !!!
I'm a Hunter, I don't want to play a priest or warrior or any other class, but I wouldn't mind playing a priest if I could give some of that good Hunter loot that drops and no one else wants to my Hunter character. I would happily play the priest (or warrior), knowing it can always get a group, to gear up my Hunter.
It's a win for everyone.
Those people in LFG would always be able to fill out a group, and people would be able to gear up their favorite character. It would also be incentive for people to level up other classes/builds - particularly those hard to find ones like pure tanks and healers.
# posted by : 27/3/08 16:27
: 27/3/08 16:27
My thoughts are this, anyone who truly wanted to play a support class have done so. They are either still doing it or burnt out.
Those who choose the path later, to get in groups and raids, find they don't really enjoy it and go back to dpsing (usually in the case of hybrids try to spec into the dps tree and find themselves back on the bench).
For every 5 people who say soloing with these specs suck, 1 person will say they do just fine. But anyone who has played both a dps or healer/tank know there is a difference.
You also get that feeling you are tanking or healing an instance just so dps can get their toys.
Adding spell damage to healing items was a step in the right direction. Then you have dpsers who roll on that gear!
*sigh*
Those who choose the path later, to get in groups and raids, find they don't really enjoy it and go back to dpsing (usually in the case of hybrids try to spec into the dps tree and find themselves back on the bench).
For every 5 people who say soloing with these specs suck, 1 person will say they do just fine. But anyone who has played both a dps or healer/tank know there is a difference.
You also get that feeling you are tanking or healing an instance just so dps can get their toys.
Adding spell damage to healing items was a step in the right direction. Then you have dpsers who roll on that gear!
*sigh*
I've had this discussion with a friend of mine.
My opinion is that people that like to play support classes generally like to be part of the team. The game has become more and more about soloing so thier is less and less team. Thus fewer people play support classes.
My opinion is that people that like to play support classes generally like to be part of the team. The game has become more and more about soloing so thier is less and less team. Thus fewer people play support classes.
I'm of two minds about this. As a paladin, I leveled as a tank and loved it, although Protection Pallies are a horrible way to level. As Holy spec, I love healing and being that part of the group. I also love the fact that I can pretty much get into any groups' raid because of the shortage of healers.
I have a few alts, such as a mage, that I really enjoy running around with and being able to take care of almost any mob with relative ease. That said, I don't often play my alts because I prefer the support classes.
As such, I'm biased against improving the appeal of healers and tanks in general because I'm more valuable that way. :)
I have a few alts, such as a mage, that I really enjoy running around with and being able to take care of almost any mob with relative ease. That said, I don't often play my alts because I prefer the support classes.
As such, I'm biased against improving the appeal of healers and tanks in general because I'm more valuable that way. :)
Getting rid of respec-costs would also cause problems. If you as a warrior could choose if you want to be a DD or a tank whenever you want without penalty, then why should anyone play a pure DD? Everyone would like to be a Priest, happily switching between holy and shadow, or a warrior switching between arms and defense. I wouldn't mind, but Blizzard sure would ;)
Actually, I expect nerfs coming in, at least for healers. Look at the numbers:
A team of 5 people in PvM needs 3 DDs and 1 Healer (and a tank).
A team of 5 people in Arena usually needs 3 DDs and 2 Healers. Also, Healers are highly popular in 2vs2 and 3vs3, teams without healers are rare. Lets hope for the best, but I expect healers getting nerfed until you will want one for 5vs5 and don't need any for all other brackets..
Actually, I expect nerfs coming in, at least for healers. Look at the numbers:
A team of 5 people in PvM needs 3 DDs and 1 Healer (and a tank).
A team of 5 people in Arena usually needs 3 DDs and 2 Healers. Also, Healers are highly popular in 2vs2 and 3vs3, teams without healers are rare. Lets hope for the best, but I expect healers getting nerfed until you will want one for 5vs5 and don't need any for all other brackets..
# posted by : 27/3/08 20:47
: 27/3/08 20:47
There are couple of things you could do.
0) First, however, Blizzard needs to officially acknowledge there's a problem. It could very well be that they don't, and with the availability of non-Warrior tanking and non-Priest healing they may feel things are just peachy the way they are.
Assuming that 0) happens:
*) make respecs for those two classes (or maybe for druids/shaman as well) be free.
*) make equipment viable for various modes of play. This would be easier for Warrior tanking as there are stances available. I.e. an item may have +DEF when in Defensive Stance but have +ATK when in Beserker or Battle stance. Similar to what happens currently with Druids swapping forms with regard to AC etc.
Perhaps do similar things for Priests in/out of Shadow or based on certain skill availability to indicate a healing role vs. a damage role. (Or maybe this is already handled with the heal/damage tweeks already made.)
0) First, however, Blizzard needs to officially acknowledge there's a problem. It could very well be that they don't, and with the availability of non-Warrior tanking and non-Priest healing they may feel things are just peachy the way they are.
Assuming that 0) happens:
*) make respecs for those two classes (or maybe for druids/shaman as well) be free.
*) make equipment viable for various modes of play. This would be easier for Warrior tanking as there are stances available. I.e. an item may have +DEF when in Defensive Stance but have +ATK when in Beserker or Battle stance. Similar to what happens currently with Druids swapping forms with regard to AC etc.
Perhaps do similar things for Priests in/out of Shadow or based on certain skill availability to indicate a healing role vs. a damage role. (Or maybe this is already handled with the heal/damage tweeks already made.)
Getting rid of respec-costs would also cause problems. If you as a warrior could choose if you want to be a DD or a tank whenever you want without penalty, then why should anyone play a pure DD? Everyone would like to be a Priest, happily switching between holy and shadow, or a warrior switching between arms and defense. I wouldn't mind, but Blizzard sure would ;)
It wouldn't just be warriors and priests switching. With the current way that blizzard seems to be specializing characters more and more, it seems less likely that hybrid classes would be able to find good hybrid specs that could effectively cover different roles (Though maybe such specs would still work, but a specialized character would still work better in that particular role.)
In general it seems that people need to get out of the "warrior=tank, priest=healer" mentality, since with the amount of specs and classes, and with the way that hybrids get very specialized if they heavily invest in a spec, groups will have to count on the other tank and healer characters to perform as well as warriors and priests.
It wouldn't just be warriors and priests switching. With the current way that blizzard seems to be specializing characters more and more, it seems less likely that hybrid classes would be able to find good hybrid specs that could effectively cover different roles (Though maybe such specs would still work, but a specialized character would still work better in that particular role.)
In general it seems that people need to get out of the "warrior=tank, priest=healer" mentality, since with the amount of specs and classes, and with the way that hybrids get very specialized if they heavily invest in a spec, groups will have to count on the other tank and healer characters to perform as well as warriors and priests.
Part of the lack of tanks and healers may be the lack of talents specializations that are involved with these roles. Assuming the same amount of people play each class, and assuming that everyone invests completely in one talent tree, you would have 1/9 of the players as tanks (3 talent trees out of 27), 4.5/27 of players as healers (4 full healing specs, plus I'm counting discipline as a half healing, half DPS spec), and the rest DPS. Off-spec characters, mixed talent specs, and people playing certain classes due to demand or just due to how good they look do mess this estimate up, but it does show how uneven the roles can get.
Maybe my comment wasn't as clear as I thought, sorry. My point was noch something like "Only priests and Warriors would profit from respecs". But there are some classes (like Rogues) who don't profit from respecs and would massively lose popularity if respecs would be free. Why should I be stuck with a single "career" (like dealing damage) when I could have two without any disadvantages?
# posted by : 28/3/08 13:45
: 28/3/08 13:45
Ben (first person to comment):
I think you could summarize this problem with two sentences:
- WoW has a lot of solo content.
- WoW's solo content is all about dealing damage.
I've played MMO games before WoW that were much less solo centric and let me tell you that the same problem existed there too. Tank and healer classes have much less appeal than other classes, with good reason.
Anyway, I recently made a comment about this in the comments of some earlier post by Tobold. Also recently I made a post regarding this on our guild forums, I'll copy/past it here:
I think it's soon about time to scrap the whole class system in most MMO's because it's going straight to hell. Tanks, and espescially healers are becoming more and more scarce, and with good reason.
There are of course different ways to do it and it's certainly not up to me to figure out the way, but I've got a few ideas. The most "simple" way (I think) is to allow every character to place points in the class they want to play for the moment, which can be respecced at almost any point. This is in part possible already in Guild Wars, but just within a certain class. "I'll play the healer tonight and you will do it tomorrow, ok?"
The other is creating classes that are somewhat self-sustained, meaning that they can all in one way or another "heal" themselves. Now this is where the people will of course scream that "it's an MMO ffs! We don't want everybody soloing!". Well that's true but you can always create some sort of synergy effects that are only available in groups. The first example that comes to mind here is Lotro's fellowship maneouvers but I'm certain that it's possible to do it other ways too.
This is of course very general thoughts but as I said it's not really up to me to figure it all out. :)
I think you could summarize this problem with two sentences:
- WoW has a lot of solo content.
- WoW's solo content is all about dealing damage.
I've played MMO games before WoW that were much less solo centric and let me tell you that the same problem existed there too. Tank and healer classes have much less appeal than other classes, with good reason.
Anyway, I recently made a comment about this in the comments of some earlier post by Tobold. Also recently I made a post regarding this on our guild forums, I'll copy/past it here:
I think it's soon about time to scrap the whole class system in most MMO's because it's going straight to hell. Tanks, and espescially healers are becoming more and more scarce, and with good reason.
There are of course different ways to do it and it's certainly not up to me to figure out the way, but I've got a few ideas. The most "simple" way (I think) is to allow every character to place points in the class they want to play for the moment, which can be respecced at almost any point. This is in part possible already in Guild Wars, but just within a certain class. "I'll play the healer tonight and you will do it tomorrow, ok?"
The other is creating classes that are somewhat self-sustained, meaning that they can all in one way or another "heal" themselves. Now this is where the people will of course scream that "it's an MMO ffs! We don't want everybody soloing!". Well that's true but you can always create some sort of synergy effects that are only available in groups. The first example that comes to mind here is Lotro's fellowship maneouvers but I'm certain that it's possible to do it other ways too.
This is of course very general thoughts but as I said it's not really up to me to figure it all out. :)
I have played a mage from launch up to SSC/TK. I have had lots of alts trying to figure out which playstyle I liked and to learn about other classes so I could lead groups with more confidence about what skills were available to the success of the group.
It wasn't until I really looked deep down to discover that the role of a healer was really what I enjoyed and envied in other healers. I leveled my priest holy from 1-70. I had a few respecs here and there but for the most part I leveled with an optimal healing build.
I healed every instance I could get a hold of and just finished quests with my meager dps. I leveled in outland almost exclusively through instances and the three low level zones and left most of the high end zones for quest cash.
I find that if you don't natively love being a tank or a healer, you will not enjoy the stress of the role. This may be the point you are trying to make. The roles themselves are not as accessible to people who are not as altruistic to pass up dreams of dps rockstardom for the simple life of seeing runs through to success by solid tanking and healing. I am, and I am incredibly successful and empowered to keep at it because it's what I enjoy. If they made it easier to solo, you could possibly see more tanks/healers - but you can't make people like the role. The entire threat model would have to change to encompass what you propose I think.
It wasn't until I really looked deep down to discover that the role of a healer was really what I enjoyed and envied in other healers. I leveled my priest holy from 1-70. I had a few respecs here and there but for the most part I leveled with an optimal healing build.
I healed every instance I could get a hold of and just finished quests with my meager dps. I leveled in outland almost exclusively through instances and the three low level zones and left most of the high end zones for quest cash.
I find that if you don't natively love being a tank or a healer, you will not enjoy the stress of the role. This may be the point you are trying to make. The roles themselves are not as accessible to people who are not as altruistic to pass up dreams of dps rockstardom for the simple life of seeing runs through to success by solid tanking and healing. I am, and I am incredibly successful and empowered to keep at it because it's what I enjoy. If they made it easier to solo, you could possibly see more tanks/healers - but you can't make people like the role. The entire threat model would have to change to encompass what you propose I think.
No mike while you have some good points you miss the fundamental break between current game design and tanks/healers.
People that like to play healers (me for instance) or tanks. Usually like to play in groups. Making it easier to solo means less groups and less people actually getting thier healers to end game.
Honestly I love to play healing classes. But if I have to solo to endgame, Its hunter all the way. Even if a healer were as easy. Because a healer or a tank suck in solo play. I leveled a druid to end game and am working on a priest. I can solo any class. Just not going to solo a group oriented class. Its like trying to drive the square peg into the round hole. You can do it. But its just not any fun.
People that like to play healers (me for instance) or tanks. Usually like to play in groups. Making it easier to solo means less groups and less people actually getting thier healers to end game.
Honestly I love to play healing classes. But if I have to solo to endgame, Its hunter all the way. Even if a healer were as easy. Because a healer or a tank suck in solo play. I leveled a druid to end game and am working on a priest. I can solo any class. Just not going to solo a group oriented class. Its like trying to drive the square peg into the round hole. You can do it. But its just not any fun.
I don't think there is a problem with the number tank and healers. What's really going on, is the tanks and healers don't need to be lfg for any instance if they're good at thier job. Let me explain:
I came from FFXI where static groups reigned king (static group is where you have the same 6-8 people all the time) and have translated that into wow. As a tank, I found making friends with a good healer, then taking the better of the dps classes you meet in initial pugging, then doing instances. Why would a tank ever want to pug when they have the choice of picking up highly skilled dps classes they tested in a previous instance, then go through any heroic and be done with no wipes in 30-45min. Tanks and healers just don't lfg anymore, because going in a pug is a terible idea these days.
I came from FFXI where static groups reigned king (static group is where you have the same 6-8 people all the time) and have translated that into wow. As a tank, I found making friends with a good healer, then taking the better of the dps classes you meet in initial pugging, then doing instances. Why would a tank ever want to pug when they have the choice of picking up highly skilled dps classes they tested in a previous instance, then go through any heroic and be done with no wipes in 30-45min. Tanks and healers just don't lfg anymore, because going in a pug is a terible idea these days.
As a tank, I found making friends with a good healer, then taking the better of the dps classes you meet in initial pugging, then doing instances. Why would a tank ever want to pug when they have the choice of picking up highly skilled dps classes they tested in a previous instance, then go through any heroic and be done with no wipes in 30-45min.
The reason that tanks and healers would be able to do this is that there are more classes in other roles than needed for the amount of tanks and healers available. If the amount of players were closer to that good ratio that most groups require, than tanks and healers (or perhaps non0damaging characters in general over many games) would not be able to just hand pick their groups unless they were very good.
The reason that tanks and healers would be able to do this is that there are more classes in other roles than needed for the amount of tanks and healers available. If the amount of players were closer to that good ratio that most groups require, than tanks and healers (or perhaps non0damaging characters in general over many games) would not be able to just hand pick their groups unless they were very good.
Thiers always been a problem getting good tanks and healers, for a variety of reasons. I think the most fundamental is people want to be the uber hero that does the damage and kills the beast. People don't feel as heroic being a supporting class to the kill. Add that to the fact that the PVE game is 90 percent solo till endgame now, and then the big killer is that PVP is the best progression now. Note there are alot of healers in the arena play but not the right specs for PVE. Tanks are in the same boat. I know people who play protection spec in the arenas but it takes a special person to enjoy being hard to kill but being virtually unable to kill someone till you get your S2 gear or better.
If tanks could use thier aggro management abilities in PVP. IF Taunt forced everyones target onto the tank for 5 seconds and similar things you'd have more tanks in PVP.
Not really sure what they could do to make heal specced players better.
that and as much as I use them if they'd remove the ability to use macros in pvp it would help a lot. Macros have nothing to do with skills and it just adds another layer of have and have nots when some 12 year old or even non technical 40 year old who are very skilled just cant deal with a semi skilled guy who is using macros. I'm sure I'll be flamed for this but I think it would help.
But I think the best thing they could do would be to completely seperate the two games by use of Profiles. Have a PVP profile with your PVP gear and a PVE profile with your PVE gear maybe allow quest reward items in both and simply seperate the two games so they don't impact the other at all.
Then the abilities could actually function differently in PVP arenas than they do in PVE and they might be able to get closer to that mythical balance they keep talking about.
If tanks could use thier aggro management abilities in PVP. IF Taunt forced everyones target onto the tank for 5 seconds and similar things you'd have more tanks in PVP.
Not really sure what they could do to make heal specced players better.
that and as much as I use them if they'd remove the ability to use macros in pvp it would help a lot. Macros have nothing to do with skills and it just adds another layer of have and have nots when some 12 year old or even non technical 40 year old who are very skilled just cant deal with a semi skilled guy who is using macros. I'm sure I'll be flamed for this but I think it would help.
But I think the best thing they could do would be to completely seperate the two games by use of Profiles. Have a PVP profile with your PVP gear and a PVE profile with your PVE gear maybe allow quest reward items in both and simply seperate the two games so they don't impact the other at all.
Then the abilities could actually function differently in PVP arenas than they do in PVE and they might be able to get closer to that mythical balance they keep talking about.
i rolled a healer specifically because i always had a tank in my group but no healer. now i have a healer in my group, but no tank.
gah !
gah !
As someone who mostly plays healers and tanks, I think a few of these posts, like Yane's, are getting close to it. Most people playing healers and tanks have a different mindset, we like the support role, we like groups.
Making soloing easier does not feed our desire.
Tobold, I think one of your other main themes - making grouping more attractive - would be much more relevent to encouraging these support roles. Forcing groups won't work as we know from a long line of MMOs who tried to do so (they may be successful, but not on WOWs scale). So how to make grouping and instances as attractive as say, PvP is currently? I think that is the crux of the matter.
Also, once I have found my cadre of pals to run instances with, I rarely go for pugs unless I am bored. I have more than enough business to keep me busy and I know what to expect from my crew - both in terms of tactics and treatment.
You might be surprised how easily, and rudely, people blame the healer or tank when things go sour - even when it is oftentimes they who do not understand how aggro works.
Skavvy
Making soloing easier does not feed our desire.
Tobold, I think one of your other main themes - making grouping more attractive - would be much more relevent to encouraging these support roles. Forcing groups won't work as we know from a long line of MMOs who tried to do so (they may be successful, but not on WOWs scale). So how to make grouping and instances as attractive as say, PvP is currently? I think that is the crux of the matter.
Also, once I have found my cadre of pals to run instances with, I rarely go for pugs unless I am bored. I have more than enough business to keep me busy and I know what to expect from my crew - both in terms of tactics and treatment.
You might be surprised how easily, and rudely, people blame the healer or tank when things go sour - even when it is oftentimes they who do not understand how aggro works.
Skavvy
# posted by : 31/3/08 19:48
: 31/3/08 19:48
I think the thing that most non tank/healers don't realise is simply how much abuse we get. If someone dies it's never the hunter's fault or the rogues fault or the [insert easier to play less defendant upon dps class]'s fault.
I have a tank and a healer and i refuse to go to an instance with a group unless i know at least 3 of them. I don't use LFG at all simply because it's not worth my time.
I think you're over emphasizing the importance of solo play on tanks/healers. Warriors/Druids/Pallys (to a lesser extent) can solo/farm very well on their own regardless of spec.
Healers on other hand do suffer, but very few healers like to play their classes on their own anyway.
The issue for most tanks/healers is not that they dont like the class/roles but they're called upon so often that they either refuse to swap to that character or simply retire the character.
My resto Druid hasn't seen the light of day since before Christmas as i never got to do anything i wanted without being harrassed by /whispers.
The thing to remember is that you need a tank/healer more than they need you!
The real question should be: When was the last time you saw a really good tank/healer played by a 13 year old in LFG - and when was the last time you heard a 13 year old hunter in LFG complaining of no tanks?
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I have a tank and a healer and i refuse to go to an instance with a group unless i know at least 3 of them. I don't use LFG at all simply because it's not worth my time.
I think you're over emphasizing the importance of solo play on tanks/healers. Warriors/Druids/Pallys (to a lesser extent) can solo/farm very well on their own regardless of spec.
Healers on other hand do suffer, but very few healers like to play their classes on their own anyway.
The issue for most tanks/healers is not that they dont like the class/roles but they're called upon so often that they either refuse to swap to that character or simply retire the character.
My resto Druid hasn't seen the light of day since before Christmas as i never got to do anything i wanted without being harrassed by /whispers.
The thing to remember is that you need a tank/healer more than they need you!
The real question should be: When was the last time you saw a really good tank/healer played by a 13 year old in LFG - and when was the last time you heard a 13 year old hunter in LFG complaining of no tanks?
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