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Tuesday, March 25, 2008
LFGG
A guy we've been playing with for years left our guild this weekend because he was annoyed that he never could find any guild groups for 5-man dungeons. Pretty mild stuff as far as guild drama goes, but it made me think about guild groups. And in a way he is right, "Looking for guild group" (LFGG) is becoming harder and harder.
As usual when looking for reasons for player behavior, it is worth while to look at the risk to reward ratios. Normal mode dungeons are easy enough, but most people don't really need the loot from there any more. Following the advice of my readers I did some more Black Morass that weekend with my warrior, but none of the pickup group people involved needed any of the loot, it was just about the reputation, and about helping out somebody with his Karazhan key. I also did a guild group to Steamvault, which was the daily dungeon quest, and again most items got disenchanted, except for a chest piece for our pally, and me rolling a lucky greed roll on an Ace of Blessings. So with few people interested in the rewards, it's hard to get a normal dungeon group going.
Heroic mode dungeons are even worse. Either I'm extremely unlucky, or I always get a combination of too hard dungeon and too weak group. I tried Auchenai Crypts heroic this weekend, with a competent but not epic equipped guild group, and we failed miserably. We totally hated the place, with its invisible adds, 1-minute unbreakable possessions, getting kicked of the bridge by random explosions that can't be stopped, and we never managed to even kill the first boss. But the same people have no problems getting epics from PvP or even contributing reasonably well to a guild Karazhan run. So why go heroics when there are easier options that give better rewards?
The principal design problem here is that raids, PvP, and heroics should run parallel, so people can decide what they want to play and in all cases get similar rewards for similar effort. But in reality the rewards from heroics are somewhat below those for PvP and raids. Sure, at the start of TBC going to heroics first to gear up for Karazhan was a good plan. But a year later it is easier to find a "mixed" raid, with some better equipped people helping guild mates through Karazhan, and heroics are a far worse option. Heroics would be easier if you could get those well-geared people to help, but why would they want to do that? After a couple of Karazhan runs, nobody needs loot from heroics any more, and the few badges aren't worth the time. And if you can't get your guild to run you through Karazhan, PvP is now a better option than heroics, because PvP rewards improved and heroics rewards didn't.
Added to that is the problem of organization. World of Warcraft doesn't offer a guild very many tools to work with. Guilds need to find their own forums, their own event calendar applications, their own DKP or reward systems, and organize everything outside the game. Finding a guild group would be a lot easier if there was a LFGG functionality or an in-game guild event calendar for planification of raids and 5-man groups. The only thing a guild has is guild chat, and that isn't really a good tool to organize something. You can just state your request and hope that enough people are online who are interested in the same dungeon or just willing to help.
I love the small group content of World of Warcraft, small groups are so much more personal than big raids. But I think the concept of adding heroics dungeons to gear up for the first raids wasn't perfect. Given the competition from raids and PvP now, either heroics would need to be a bit easier, or the rewards would need to be increased to make them attractive even for people in raid / PvP gear. Are you still doing heroics regularly? And how do you find a guild group for them?
- posted by Tobold @ 9:37 AM Permanent Link
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:) You've hit on one of my pet gripes with the guild tools piece.
I find it quite bizarre that grouping with 9 / 24 other players is a major part of the end-game, but that there are no in-game tools available to easily schedule this time. Instead players have to resort to 3rd party addons such as GEM, or out of games solutions on their guild websites. Seems very strange.
I'd like to see a tool for scheduling groups (both in guild and across agreed guild alliances), similar to GEM as part of the default WoW interface and would have thought tools like this would be a given in a game that is all about grouping :)
I find it quite bizarre that grouping with 9 / 24 other players is a major part of the end-game, but that there are no in-game tools available to easily schedule this time. Instead players have to resort to 3rd party addons such as GEM, or out of games solutions on their guild websites. Seems very strange.
I'd like to see a tool for scheduling groups (both in guild and across agreed guild alliances), similar to GEM as part of the default WoW interface and would have thought tools like this would be a given in a game that is all about grouping :)
You're covering almost exactly the same topics that my small WoW group was talking about yesterday.
There's three of us. We play together in the same room, so we have superb communication. We've been playing together for years, so we work very well together. All of us have at least some epics, and we're all kitted way above starting KZ spec. We're a perfect mixture of classes - Holy/Disc Priest, Prot Warrior, Arcane Mage. We have enough friends on the server that we can find extremely competent people, often in full epics, to do Heroics with.
We STILL find Heroics to be frustratingly hard.
I was ranting yesterday about the difference between the rewards from PvP and the rewards from Heroics. In order to get one of the top-flight tanking armour pieces from Badges of Justice, I'd have to have 75 Badges - that's 13 runs of Botanica. That's about 5 hours a run, and you'll probably have as many failed runs as successful ones, so let's call that 7.5 hours a run. That totals to 97.5 hours of play for one piece of armour.
Now, I wouldn't mind playing brutally, frustratingly hard dungeons - actually, I rather enjoy it - but the rewards are so slow in coming. Heroic drops seem to universally be on an incredibly low drop rate for anything really useful - I quote 9% for the Sun Blade, for example. And the Badges trickle out at a dismally slow rate.
And so everyone gets funnelled into playing PvP, even if they really don't want to be there. I'd rather hand-wash my laundry than do Eye of the Storm, but getting down with the Fairy Liquid won't get me my S2 Gladiator's Shield, which is pretty much the best tanking shield in the game, so into EotS, bitter, resentful and pissed off, I do go.
And in my case, I don't have the time to raid (given that from everything I've read, you need to devote a regular two nights a week to it, and I just don't easily have that), so I can't take the KZ route, where you seem to get far more Badges of Justice per hour.
So thanks for writing this piece. It expresses what a lot of people are feeling right now, I think.
There's three of us. We play together in the same room, so we have superb communication. We've been playing together for years, so we work very well together. All of us have at least some epics, and we're all kitted way above starting KZ spec. We're a perfect mixture of classes - Holy/Disc Priest, Prot Warrior, Arcane Mage. We have enough friends on the server that we can find extremely competent people, often in full epics, to do Heroics with.
We STILL find Heroics to be frustratingly hard.
I was ranting yesterday about the difference between the rewards from PvP and the rewards from Heroics. In order to get one of the top-flight tanking armour pieces from Badges of Justice, I'd have to have 75 Badges - that's 13 runs of Botanica. That's about 5 hours a run, and you'll probably have as many failed runs as successful ones, so let's call that 7.5 hours a run. That totals to 97.5 hours of play for one piece of armour.
Now, I wouldn't mind playing brutally, frustratingly hard dungeons - actually, I rather enjoy it - but the rewards are so slow in coming. Heroic drops seem to universally be on an incredibly low drop rate for anything really useful - I quote 9% for the Sun Blade, for example. And the Badges trickle out at a dismally slow rate.
And so everyone gets funnelled into playing PvP, even if they really don't want to be there. I'd rather hand-wash my laundry than do Eye of the Storm, but getting down with the Fairy Liquid won't get me my S2 Gladiator's Shield, which is pretty much the best tanking shield in the game, so into EotS, bitter, resentful and pissed off, I do go.
And in my case, I don't have the time to raid (given that from everything I've read, you need to devote a regular two nights a week to it, and I just don't easily have that), so I can't take the KZ route, where you seem to get far more Badges of Justice per hour.
So thanks for writing this piece. It expresses what a lot of people are feeling right now, I think.
I go on heroic benders regularly just to gather some badges. None of them are really hard, except Auch. crypts.
Sometimes with a guild group if the daily is fast enough, else just some random people.
Sometimes with a guild group if the daily is fast enough, else just some random people.
Fat Albert - that's really interesting. Can you give some tips on how to do Heroics fast and easily, or at least more easily than we are doing now?
(I'd also be interested to know what kit you're wearing - full epics do make such things easier.)
(I'd also be interested to know what kit you're wearing - full epics do make such things easier.)
I go to heroics whenever I don't do Kara since I am not doing 25 man raids.
I find the rewards basically ridiculous. I think there are about two decent items for a Paladin tank in all the heroics. The jewels are not very impressive and drop rarely. The heroic badges are nice but only few dungeons offer a reasonable time vs. badge correlation.
Shattered Halls are easy and quick and you gain 5 badges. Sethek is average and you get two badges (if you have a druid 3) but need more time. Some dungeons are just impossibly hard (Black Morsat and especially Durnholde).
Only very few heroics are interesting for me by now. Shattered Halls, Bullwark, Arkatraz, Botanica, Steam Vault. The rest is so annayoing to tank that it is not worth the time.
It is not that it is challenging which I like but often it just feels like luck.
I find the rewards basically ridiculous. I think there are about two decent items for a Paladin tank in all the heroics. The jewels are not very impressive and drop rarely. The heroic badges are nice but only few dungeons offer a reasonable time vs. badge correlation.
Shattered Halls are easy and quick and you gain 5 badges. Sethek is average and you get two badges (if you have a druid 3) but need more time. Some dungeons are just impossibly hard (Black Morsat and especially Durnholde).
Only very few heroics are interesting for me by now. Shattered Halls, Bullwark, Arkatraz, Botanica, Steam Vault. The rest is so annayoing to tank that it is not worth the time.
It is not that it is challenging which I like but often it just feels like luck.
My hunter is full epic with a good mix of Arena3, SSC & BT-Crafting, Badge Rewards and Raid epics (Kara, Gruul, ZA, SSC, TK) and in the last few weeks i run more heroic instances than ever before. The reasons for this are many folded the increased value of badges needed for items (60 to 150) per item and that some of my friends have rerolled on my server and we now try to get them in touch with raid content as soon as possible. So i go with them to get my own badges and to help them but by far this are no "welfare" runs.
In our raid guild most of the people are also on heavy badge farming for the upcoming 2.4 patch to get that one or two upgardes for slots their dkp or their drop luck was not sufficent. We have about 50 active accounts in our mid-tier raid guild (SSC 5/6 & TK 3/4) and i would say that at least 40 of these people make the heroic daily quest and about 30 people will have at least 3 heroic IDs cleared every day.
The same thing is true for Karazhan which every one in the guild is try to squeez in to even the smallest and thightest schedueles. Jumping into karazhan at 23:00 (after a 5 hour raid evening into SSC/TK) and clearing it until 2:30 in the morning only to don't let at raid-ID go by unused.
Upcoming Patch 2.4 is a big gift to all mid-tier guilds. because they can effectivley farm badges and get their members into better gear a few weeks after the patch is live and the sunwell-outpost as been build. And they can try to step into MH and BT and avoid Contentblockers like Khael'Thas and try to get a shot on some new encounters.
In our raid guild most of the people are also on heavy badge farming for the upcoming 2.4 patch to get that one or two upgardes for slots their dkp or their drop luck was not sufficent. We have about 50 active accounts in our mid-tier raid guild (SSC 5/6 & TK 3/4) and i would say that at least 40 of these people make the heroic daily quest and about 30 people will have at least 3 heroic IDs cleared every day.
The same thing is true for Karazhan which every one in the guild is try to squeez in to even the smallest and thightest schedueles. Jumping into karazhan at 23:00 (after a 5 hour raid evening into SSC/TK) and clearing it until 2:30 in the morning only to don't let at raid-ID go by unused.
Upcoming Patch 2.4 is a big gift to all mid-tier guilds. because they can effectivley farm badges and get their members into better gear a few weeks after the patch is live and the sunwell-outpost as been build. And they can try to step into MH and BT and avoid Contentblockers like Khael'Thas and try to get a shot on some new encounters.
Oh i forgot to talk about the nicer/easier heroics which can be "farmed":
- Botanica (5 Badges)
- Mechanar (4 Badges)
- Slave Pens (3 Badges)
- HdZ2 (Black Morass) - This instance has been nerfed to shreds and i have memories (or better nightmares) where our MT got stomped into the ground within seconds. But now it is a nice and smooth trip and we checked twice during the first 5 gates if this is really "heroic mode" but after we lootet our first badge we knew it was heroic. We were Protadin, Hunter, Warlock, Holy-Priest and Feral druid (in Catgear dealing with the ads).
- Hellfire: Ramparts
This is a fast trip and easy if you have mage in your group wich will make the pulls much easier. Also CC or nuke the Hounds they are really glass-cannons and they hit really hard and can kill your tanks quite fast.
Vazruden will be a lot easier (or even trivial) if the tank pull out some of his Fireresistance gear.
- Botanica (5 Badges)
- Mechanar (4 Badges)
- Slave Pens (3 Badges)
- HdZ2 (Black Morass) - This instance has been nerfed to shreds and i have memories (or better nightmares) where our MT got stomped into the ground within seconds. But now it is a nice and smooth trip and we checked twice during the first 5 gates if this is really "heroic mode" but after we lootet our first badge we knew it was heroic. We were Protadin, Hunter, Warlock, Holy-Priest and Feral druid (in Catgear dealing with the ads).
- Hellfire: Ramparts
This is a fast trip and easy if you have mage in your group wich will make the pulls much easier. Also CC or nuke the Hounds they are really glass-cannons and they hit really hard and can kill your tanks quite fast.
Vazruden will be a lot easier (or even trivial) if the tank pull out some of his Fireresistance gear.
Black Morass is a shadow of its former self. 3 Easy badges nowadays, 5 if it is the daily.
Crypts should not be difficult; the Mind controllers should be killed first; maybe your dps was not targetting them quick enough - they don't have many hitpoints and should die quickly.
The bridge should be crossed in a group all at the same time - that way you will get the explosions happening behind you, and no-one should be thrown over the side.
The first boss is hard, because he makes all spell cast times double or something, so healing gets difficult.
Tough first bosses also occur in Shadow Labs and Steam Vaults; if you can beat them then the rest of the instance is clearable.
Hardest heroic for me is Durnholde - the patrols before the first boss are wipes unless you very good tank; once you have burnt the huts it becomes a lot lot easier.
Groupings are very dependent on your guild; my main's guild has many heroic groups running all the time, my alt's (now former) guild is hopeless for getting groups together - I used to see guildies in LFG asking for pugs, and yet they had not even considered asking in Guild chat.
Crypts should not be difficult; the Mind controllers should be killed first; maybe your dps was not targetting them quick enough - they don't have many hitpoints and should die quickly.
The bridge should be crossed in a group all at the same time - that way you will get the explosions happening behind you, and no-one should be thrown over the side.
The first boss is hard, because he makes all spell cast times double or something, so healing gets difficult.
Tough first bosses also occur in Shadow Labs and Steam Vaults; if you can beat them then the rest of the instance is clearable.
Hardest heroic for me is Durnholde - the patrols before the first boss are wipes unless you very good tank; once you have burnt the huts it becomes a lot lot easier.
Groupings are very dependent on your guild; my main's guild has many heroic groups running all the time, my alt's (now former) guild is hopeless for getting groups together - I used to see guildies in LFG asking for pugs, and yet they had not even considered asking in Guild chat.
# posted by 
: 25/3/08 14:09
: 25/3/08 14:09
I get the definitive impression from these comments that heroics are good for groups in epic gear that want to farm badges. Which is nice enough. But I was talking about doing heroics to gear up when you haven't got any epics yet, as alternative to raids and PvP. And I'm happy to hear I'm not the only one having problems with that project. :)
But thanks for the advice on "easy" heroics. Botanica and Mechanar could actually be good for my Sha'tar rep at the same time. And I can imagine BM heroic being possible, because it is far more of a dps check than a tank gear check. And with a new teleport leading there from Shattrath ...
But thanks for the advice on "easy" heroics. Botanica and Mechanar could actually be good for my Sha'tar rep at the same time. And I can imagine BM heroic being possible, because it is far more of a dps check than a tank gear check. And with a new teleport leading there from Shattrath ...
All of this discussion about farming and spending all this time to get drops/badges makes me feel good I de-activated my account back when I did.
Also all of this discussion about how frustrating it can be to make groups brought back my memories of the time wasted trying to form groups half of which never really panned out.
I'm looking forward to the expansion. It can't come soon enough IMO.
Lately, I've been spending my free time playing the myriad of game demos at steampowered.com trying to hold off as long as I can on plopping down money on a new game and committing myself to another long timesink. 8^)
-iroh
Also all of this discussion about how frustrating it can be to make groups brought back my memories of the time wasted trying to form groups half of which never really panned out.
I'm looking forward to the expansion. It can't come soon enough IMO.
Lately, I've been spending my free time playing the myriad of game demos at steampowered.com trying to hold off as long as I can on plopping down money on a new game and committing myself to another long timesink. 8^)
-iroh
# posted by : 25/3/08 14:27
: 25/3/08 14:27
I remember when I first hit 70, in the early days of the expansion, there was a common saying going around that Heroics were harder than Karazhan.
I knew a lot of folks that diligently followed what they thought was the progression, by doing Heroics to gear up for Karazhan, only to get frustrated with them and jump into Karazhan instead.
My little team of friends ran Sethek Halls for our druid's epic flight form, and it was a nightmare. The PUG tank was in partial kara epics, but the rest of us were in 70 dungeon blues and it was terribly painful. I'm still not sure how we pulled it off.
Now, we all are fully kitted out in Arena, badge, rep, and Kara epics and many heroics are cake. Of course, we do them for the badges and not the loot, which hits the point you made squarely on the head.
The only piece I managed to get from a heroic, which was much needed, was a set of leggings from Mechanar in the days when it was the best badge run for your time. They have since been replaced by Arena leggings.
I knew a lot of folks that diligently followed what they thought was the progression, by doing Heroics to gear up for Karazhan, only to get frustrated with them and jump into Karazhan instead.
My little team of friends ran Sethek Halls for our druid's epic flight form, and it was a nightmare. The PUG tank was in partial kara epics, but the rest of us were in 70 dungeon blues and it was terribly painful. I'm still not sure how we pulled it off.
Now, we all are fully kitted out in Arena, badge, rep, and Kara epics and many heroics are cake. Of course, we do them for the badges and not the loot, which hits the point you made squarely on the head.
The only piece I managed to get from a heroic, which was much needed, was a set of leggings from Mechanar in the days when it was the best badge run for your time. They have since been replaced by Arena leggings.
# posted by : 25/3/08 14:55
: 25/3/08 14:55
It's interesting to hear people describe what they think is are the easier heroics
One commenter says a heroic Botanica run is 5 hours, yet in a good guild group I've done heroic bot in well under 2 hours and find it by far one of the easiest
Other commentors saying heroic BM is really easy, whereas I've never managed to do it sucessfully
I think a lot of it is having the right group makeup, and in my experience the time thing depends an awful lot on a lot of things
Some examples
1. How quickly you get back after a wipe (ie is your group he kind that goes afk for 5 minutes every wipe, or are you straight back in and move on)
2. Knowledge of which sets of mobs you can leave, and which you have to kill...this can make a massive difference in some instances
3. Do you wait for full mana/health between pulls or do you just go with 50% (or whatever you need)
4. Do all 5 members know the instance and the tactics for each boss without having to spend time explaining on almost every pull ?
5. The leader.....The difference between a good and a bad leader can make a massive difference to a group, and the speed you progress through an instance
One commenter says a heroic Botanica run is 5 hours, yet in a good guild group I've done heroic bot in well under 2 hours and find it by far one of the easiest
Other commentors saying heroic BM is really easy, whereas I've never managed to do it sucessfully
I think a lot of it is having the right group makeup, and in my experience the time thing depends an awful lot on a lot of things
Some examples
1. How quickly you get back after a wipe (ie is your group he kind that goes afk for 5 minutes every wipe, or are you straight back in and move on)
2. Knowledge of which sets of mobs you can leave, and which you have to kill...this can make a massive difference in some instances
3. Do you wait for full mana/health between pulls or do you just go with 50% (or whatever you need)
4. Do all 5 members know the instance and the tactics for each boss without having to spend time explaining on almost every pull ?
5. The leader.....The difference between a good and a bad leader can make a massive difference to a group, and the speed you progress through an instance
# posted by : 25/3/08 15:27
: 25/3/08 15:27
The one Heroic I've managed to complete (as a Prot Warrior with, at time of writing, 13.2k health, 490 def and 14k armour unbuffed) so far was Black Morass.
Having said that, I was with a group that, other than me, was entirely kitted out in Season 2/3 Arena gear and 25-man epics.
I'd echo Tobold's question - is there anyone who find Heroics a useful way to gear up who isn't outfitted in at least half epics?
Having said that, I was with a group that, other than me, was entirely kitted out in Season 2/3 Arena gear and 25-man epics.
I'd echo Tobold's question - is there anyone who find Heroics a useful way to gear up who isn't outfitted in at least half epics?
The fix on this should be easy. Include an extremely low drop rate mount on the final boss. It worked with Undead Strath. There were tons of people who kept running that instance not needing anything from it just for the tiny chance the mount would drop. Including an epic flying mount as an extremely low drop rate from Kael'Thas is a horrible use of resources (and I say this as somebody who has downed Kael'Thas a number of times and doesn't even bother going to TK any longer). Throw that mount on Kael'Thas in his new 5 man on heroic mode at a .01% drop rate and suddenly it will be much easier to convince guildies to go run the instance for the 57th time.
/Waves at Tobold,
mate you pretty much hit the nail ont he head there, but oviously in a much better wording :)
mate you pretty much hit the nail ont he head there, but oviously in a much better wording :)
# posted by : 25/3/08 15:59
: 25/3/08 15:59
Class composition is huge in heroics. You can't go in with just any class unless you are way overgeared.
Pally tanks are extremely useful in quite a few of them, and speccing specifically for CC as well is a must if you are appropirately geared. Nothing like me trying to shield and keep a hunter in half or more blues up after his 2nd trap breaks.
I find I get a lot of healing aggro when running any heroic unless the tank is overgeared for it.
Some heroics are easier. Slave Pens and Mech are good starting ones, then Bot. You can do those with a mix of blues and kara purples. It gets harder from there.
For raiders with better gear, heroics seem easy. But for everyone else, they can be quite a pain, and if you don't have the proper classes for that heroic, forget it.
Because of all that, I quite agree they are not giving proper rewards for the effort. Blizzard has really dropped the ball and they never lived up to the promise of a small-group endgame. Raiding and pvp all offer lots of reward for the effort, but not horoics.
Pally tanks are extremely useful in quite a few of them, and speccing specifically for CC as well is a must if you are appropirately geared. Nothing like me trying to shield and keep a hunter in half or more blues up after his 2nd trap breaks.
I find I get a lot of healing aggro when running any heroic unless the tank is overgeared for it.
Some heroics are easier. Slave Pens and Mech are good starting ones, then Bot. You can do those with a mix of blues and kara purples. It gets harder from there.
For raiders with better gear, heroics seem easy. But for everyone else, they can be quite a pain, and if you don't have the proper classes for that heroic, forget it.
Because of all that, I quite agree they are not giving proper rewards for the effort. Blizzard has really dropped the ball and they never lived up to the promise of a small-group endgame. Raiding and pvp all offer lots of reward for the effort, but not horoics.
I find getting a well properly geared/spec'd group more of an issue this days.
Since it seems everyone and their brother as is doing pvp, I'm seeing alot pvp geared players trying to do pve heroics with their pvp talent specs.
I know you can mix and match a bit of pvp and pve gear for raids, but when I see a player completely decked out in pvp gear, I know their talent spec is for maxing their CC abilities and/or damage, sacrificing Mana regain and/or avoidance. Ever see a S1 geared warrior in Heroic when they grab aggro by mistake? 3 quick hits and their dead. Or the mace spec'd rogues who can't sap before the pull or stun the skull after the pull.
Since it seems everyone and their brother as is doing pvp, I'm seeing alot pvp geared players trying to do pve heroics with their pvp talent specs.
I know you can mix and match a bit of pvp and pve gear for raids, but when I see a player completely decked out in pvp gear, I know their talent spec is for maxing their CC abilities and/or damage, sacrificing Mana regain and/or avoidance. Ever see a S1 geared warrior in Heroic when they grab aggro by mistake? 3 quick hits and their dead. Or the mace spec'd rogues who can't sap before the pull or stun the skull after the pull.
# posted by : 25/3/08 16:20
: 25/3/08 16:20
I think its a self perpetuationg cycle at this point. The gear in the 5 mans hasn't been upgraded so the people that have thier gear don't want to run it. People have a hard time getting groups so they turn to PVP or in the instance of lower level instances they get a 70 to run them through so people group less. Make less friends and it gets harder to find a group. It's a downward death spiral at this point. And I don't think the Expansion is going to help. I think it will just widen the gap. All the guilds and well geared people will move out and group till they are geared and then go back to raiding or pvp.
Hi Tobold,
Blizzard has had a lot of success with diminishing returns, for example rest bonus, PvP honor, and daily dungeon quests. For Badges (which now can be used to purchase Vortexes, epic gems, and some T6-equivalent gear) the easiest way to get them is in a Kara farm group. But once you're done with your weekly Kara, you must be in a 25-man raiding guild or do heroics. So heroics are the harder/slower way to accumulate additional badges after you've done your Kara.
One more note: the new 5-man -- Magister's Terrace -- in heroic mode drops one of the best tank trinkets and one of the best melee trinkets in the game. I'll be running that heroic every day on my feral druid (Kara/S3 equipped) until those trinkets drop:
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34473
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34472
Blizzard has had a lot of success with diminishing returns, for example rest bonus, PvP honor, and daily dungeon quests. For Badges (which now can be used to purchase Vortexes, epic gems, and some T6-equivalent gear) the easiest way to get them is in a Kara farm group. But once you're done with your weekly Kara, you must be in a 25-man raiding guild or do heroics. So heroics are the harder/slower way to accumulate additional badges after you've done your Kara.
One more note: the new 5-man -- Magister's Terrace -- in heroic mode drops one of the best tank trinkets and one of the best melee trinkets in the game. I'll be running that heroic every day on my feral druid (Kara/S3 equipped) until those trinkets drop:
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34473
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34472
Tobold:
It’s a broader issue than just heroics. The level 70 dungeon 5-man gear isn’t worthwhile either. I’ve just skipped that progression step altogether on my last two 70s. As a DPS class, I’m better off farming some gold for my craftable gear and just pvp’ing for a few upgrades and then I’m ready for the entry level Heroics. Feral Druids can follow a similar progression to get the tanking gear they need, but Warriors need some of those normal mode drops. Ironically, it’s likely easier to DPS as a Fury warrior in the entry Heroics or Karazhan for your tanking gear.
As to the Heroics themselves – the biggest issue I have is that some bosses are REALLY REALLY tough compared to the rest of the instance. Mana Tombs for example, has trash that is almost trivial. The first boss is kinda tough, but the last boss is a !#$@!#.
In a way, these really are 5-man RAIDS in the sense that group composition really matters. Like a raid, unless you overgeared, then you need the right combination of classes and the ability to clearly communicate what is needed for each fight. Unlike a raid, however, people aren’t willing to wipe repeatedly until they succeed. I’m certain that a lot of this has to do with the rewards. Some (like Shadow Labs) don’t even offer rewards better than normal mode.
Honestly, this all goes back to my big complaint that WoW puts to big an emphasis on gear. Namely, that gear incentives drives people to skip content and that gear makes a much bigger impact on your personal performance than skill.
I don’t know if it’s a better design, but the comparison I would draw is to the “racing game” genre. In that genre, you get better and faster cars as you progress – but if you never learned to drive the slower cars competitively then you don’t have the skill to drive the better cars. Some people never learn to drive the fast cars because they can’t pass the skill check required to get to the next level.
It’s a broader issue than just heroics. The level 70 dungeon 5-man gear isn’t worthwhile either. I’ve just skipped that progression step altogether on my last two 70s. As a DPS class, I’m better off farming some gold for my craftable gear and just pvp’ing for a few upgrades and then I’m ready for the entry level Heroics. Feral Druids can follow a similar progression to get the tanking gear they need, but Warriors need some of those normal mode drops. Ironically, it’s likely easier to DPS as a Fury warrior in the entry Heroics or Karazhan for your tanking gear.
As to the Heroics themselves – the biggest issue I have is that some bosses are REALLY REALLY tough compared to the rest of the instance. Mana Tombs for example, has trash that is almost trivial. The first boss is kinda tough, but the last boss is a !#$@!#.
In a way, these really are 5-man RAIDS in the sense that group composition really matters. Like a raid, unless you overgeared, then you need the right combination of classes and the ability to clearly communicate what is needed for each fight. Unlike a raid, however, people aren’t willing to wipe repeatedly until they succeed. I’m certain that a lot of this has to do with the rewards. Some (like Shadow Labs) don’t even offer rewards better than normal mode.
Honestly, this all goes back to my big complaint that WoW puts to big an emphasis on gear. Namely, that gear incentives drives people to skip content and that gear makes a much bigger impact on your personal performance than skill.
I don’t know if it’s a better design, but the comparison I would draw is to the “racing game” genre. In that genre, you get better and faster cars as you progress – but if you never learned to drive the slower cars competitively then you don’t have the skill to drive the better cars. Some people never learn to drive the fast cars because they can’t pass the skill check required to get to the next level.
PvE specs and full enchants on full level 70 gear (not the stuff you pick up on the way to 70) are all that is needed to complete heroics.
In my experience I have found most people want to wait until they have an epic piece of equipment to put that 60g enchant on, well that is perfectly fine as long as you are willing to wait for someone else to walk you through the places to get the gear in the first place. If you are in a guild with people that do that then more power to you, if you are relegated to PUGs though you will need to go the whole way, especially if you are the tank/healer.
Tobold, do you have mongoose on your sword? Do you have a clefthoof patch on your legs? Do you have the head enchant from COT and the shoulder enchant from Aldor/Scryer? In all honesty if you have any piece unenchanted you aren't ready for heroics yet.
This is without mentioning gems even.
In the long runs these enchants/gems pay for themselves as you end up wiping a lot less meaning much lower repair costs. The rules for PvE apply everywhere though, not just high end raid instances.
Thanks for turning anonamous commenting back on btw, appreciate being able to have a say again.
In my experience I have found most people want to wait until they have an epic piece of equipment to put that 60g enchant on, well that is perfectly fine as long as you are willing to wait for someone else to walk you through the places to get the gear in the first place. If you are in a guild with people that do that then more power to you, if you are relegated to PUGs though you will need to go the whole way, especially if you are the tank/healer.
Tobold, do you have mongoose on your sword? Do you have a clefthoof patch on your legs? Do you have the head enchant from COT and the shoulder enchant from Aldor/Scryer? In all honesty if you have any piece unenchanted you aren't ready for heroics yet.
This is without mentioning gems even.
In the long runs these enchants/gems pay for themselves as you end up wiping a lot less meaning much lower repair costs. The rules for PvE apply everywhere though, not just high end raid instances.
Thanks for turning anonamous commenting back on btw, appreciate being able to have a say again.
# posted by : 25/3/08 19:06
: 25/3/08 19:06
Johnny raises a good point. I could never understand why people cheap out on enchants and gems, hamstringing their own power because they want to wait for an upgrade.
The problem is, it takes longer to upgrade that way, unless you are paired up with folks that are over-geared.
It is like skipping more than two steps while climbing a staircase. It can be done, but it is more painful than it is worth.
Having said all that, I got the best I could back when I was running in Dungeon blues, but the options were not as plentiful (especially the raid drop enchants) as they are now, and there wasn't a ton of money from the Daily system. Consequently, we really suffered in heroics wearing only the dungeon armor.
I also agree completely that some bosses are absurd on heroic. That second boss in Blood Furnace is insane (mostly due to the timed elite mobs before you get to the boss.)
The problem is, it takes longer to upgrade that way, unless you are paired up with folks that are over-geared.
It is like skipping more than two steps while climbing a staircase. It can be done, but it is more painful than it is worth.
Having said all that, I got the best I could back when I was running in Dungeon blues, but the options were not as plentiful (especially the raid drop enchants) as they are now, and there wasn't a ton of money from the Daily system. Consequently, we really suffered in heroics wearing only the dungeon armor.
I also agree completely that some bosses are absurd on heroic. That second boss in Blood Furnace is insane (mostly due to the timed elite mobs before you get to the boss.)
# posted by : 25/3/08 20:02
: 25/3/08 20:02
Tobold, do you have mongoose on your sword? Do you have a clefthoof patch on your legs? Do you have the head enchant from COT and the shoulder enchant from Aldor/Scryer? In all honesty if you have any piece unenchanted you aren't ready for heroics yet.
No mongoose (couldn't find an enchanter to do it yet), but a +4 damage enchant until I do. Yes, clefthoof patch on the legs. Yes also to the head and shoulder enchants. All my pieces are enchanted, but not all with the most expensive enchantment. But I'm fully gemmed up, as my priest is jewelcrafter.
Still, spending hundreds of gold on an enchantment for a piece of gear you are planning to replace soon isn't worth it. For me each hundred gold are one evening gold grinding instead of playing something more fun. So I tend not to waste it.
No mongoose (couldn't find an enchanter to do it yet), but a +4 damage enchant until I do. Yes, clefthoof patch on the legs. Yes also to the head and shoulder enchants. All my pieces are enchanted, but not all with the most expensive enchantment. But I'm fully gemmed up, as my priest is jewelcrafter.
Still, spending hundreds of gold on an enchantment for a piece of gear you are planning to replace soon isn't worth it. For me each hundred gold are one evening gold grinding instead of playing something more fun. So I tend not to waste it.
I know I am preaching to the choir by saying this, and I agree with you 110% that it isn't worth it, but that is how the meta game works. You pay a much heftier price for advancement than you did previously, and it just gets worse the higher up the food chain you go.
It doesn't change the fact that you have to pay this price to move up it however.
The same mind set applies to heroics as it does to 25-man raiding, it is very much about min-maxing.
It doesn't change the fact that you have to pay this price to move up it however.
The same mind set applies to heroics as it does to 25-man raiding, it is very much about min-maxing.
# posted by : 25/3/08 23:20
: 25/3/08 23:20
"spending hundreds of gold on an enchantment for a piece of gear you are planning to replace soon isn't worth it"
This is a problem we have in my guild ! Trying to convince people to put the best enchants on their "blue" gear
imho is important, and moreover, its important that everybody does it, on its own one enchant might not tip the balance, but 4-5 enchants each over 5 people = 25 enchants, which adds up to a massive difference in dps/healing etc
You're having problems completeing heroics, and you think one reason is your gear, you have a 100% chance to improve that gear and make it easier for yourself, yet you choose not to use it
This is a problem we have in my guild ! Trying to convince people to put the best enchants on their "blue" gear
imho is important, and moreover, its important that everybody does it, on its own one enchant might not tip the balance, but 4-5 enchants each over 5 people = 25 enchants, which adds up to a massive difference in dps/healing etc
You're having problems completeing heroics, and you think one reason is your gear, you have a 100% chance to improve that gear and make it easier for yourself, yet you choose not to use it
# posted by : 26/3/08 09:38
: 26/3/08 09:38
@lerbic.
do you talk to those people and see how much actual time they have? I've seen raiding guilds implode when they finally harrass thier healers or thier tank to get such gear and find out they've taken a month long sabattacal to grind out the money or mats to get thier enchants or gear because they are tired of the bitching.
And for them that was the only choice. Grind out the mats. Or raid. They didn't have the time for both.
do you talk to those people and see how much actual time they have? I've seen raiding guilds implode when they finally harrass thier healers or thier tank to get such gear and find out they've taken a month long sabattacal to grind out the money or mats to get thier enchants or gear because they are tired of the bitching.
And for them that was the only choice. Grind out the mats. Or raid. They didn't have the time for both.
If your looking to someone that geared from full greens at 70 as a Tank (Protec Paladin) to full dungeon solid Blues then went ane did Heroics and geared up and still mostly gearing on Badge gear mostly being guildless most the time well I did that. I also blog so it well documented.
I got to 70 being guildless most the time. At 70 as a Tank I had no guild very little group tanking experience and in greens. Not being in a guild was a problem to me. I decided I needed blue tanking gear for later Kara and valuable tanking experience for my tanking resume so I went and ran 5 mans for a little while and got fully decked out in solid tanking blues. I did it being guildless and without friends. My new and future friends were the people I met on every PuG run.
I did all the rep grind for tanking and reward gear for blue gear. I did it being guildless. In solid blues I had +490 Defense, was uncrittable and uncrushable and wasnt in a guild nor had I seen Kara. I did it guildless. I got my Kara key, I did that being guildless.
Then I started running Heroics to improve and upgrade my blue gear. I don't PvP and never have. I run Heroics all the time. My daily goal is 12 Badges a day. I don't hit it daily. Most days I get 9 badges for about 4 hrs of total instance time max. When I started in Heroics I was guildless. I ran the easier Heroics first, that's a no brainer with my gear. Lateron I goined a guild and we started Kara. We have about 70 people in guild. There are 2 dedicated fully geared tanks in solid gear. I'm one of the two the other is a warrior who PvP often and do Heroics.
Every day I log in I have a goal of 3 Fast Heroic runs. I do that everyday I play. I collect 9-12 badges and I PuG every single one of them even though I'm in a guild. I just like to PuG and I always make and structure my groups to fit my Heroic farming runs. I'm the tank so Iake the group. I never wait around for my guildmates to start a run or tag along. I log on, I jump in Q and I start LFM for my Heroic farming run for Badges. I've gotten some gear from Kara. I still have a few blues, but in time they will all be replaced most likely with the better badge gear that fits my needs that are better than Kara drops. So yeah I did that, gearing from green to blues to purple badge gear. Im a well seasoned tank from tanking lots of 5 mans. I'm damn popular with my friends on my server because I PuG alot and makes lots of friends. But you can gear up that way. I've proven that and did it. These days more Kara is on the schedule. I'll be running Heroics untill my last few gear pieces are all replaced and more.
The easy Heroics: Slave Pens, UB, Mech, Botanica, SV. Heroic Botanica is east smooth with a good made group easier if your good at the place for 5 badges. I run it in less than a hour and a half.
www.ardentdefender.blogspot.com
I got to 70 being guildless most the time. At 70 as a Tank I had no guild very little group tanking experience and in greens. Not being in a guild was a problem to me. I decided I needed blue tanking gear for later Kara and valuable tanking experience for my tanking resume so I went and ran 5 mans for a little while and got fully decked out in solid tanking blues. I did it being guildless and without friends. My new and future friends were the people I met on every PuG run.
I did all the rep grind for tanking and reward gear for blue gear. I did it being guildless. In solid blues I had +490 Defense, was uncrittable and uncrushable and wasnt in a guild nor had I seen Kara. I did it guildless. I got my Kara key, I did that being guildless.
Then I started running Heroics to improve and upgrade my blue gear. I don't PvP and never have. I run Heroics all the time. My daily goal is 12 Badges a day. I don't hit it daily. Most days I get 9 badges for about 4 hrs of total instance time max. When I started in Heroics I was guildless. I ran the easier Heroics first, that's a no brainer with my gear. Lateron I goined a guild and we started Kara. We have about 70 people in guild. There are 2 dedicated fully geared tanks in solid gear. I'm one of the two the other is a warrior who PvP often and do Heroics.
Every day I log in I have a goal of 3 Fast Heroic runs. I do that everyday I play. I collect 9-12 badges and I PuG every single one of them even though I'm in a guild. I just like to PuG and I always make and structure my groups to fit my Heroic farming runs. I'm the tank so Iake the group. I never wait around for my guildmates to start a run or tag along. I log on, I jump in Q and I start LFM for my Heroic farming run for Badges. I've gotten some gear from Kara. I still have a few blues, but in time they will all be replaced most likely with the better badge gear that fits my needs that are better than Kara drops. So yeah I did that, gearing from green to blues to purple badge gear. Im a well seasoned tank from tanking lots of 5 mans. I'm damn popular with my friends on my server because I PuG alot and makes lots of friends. But you can gear up that way. I've proven that and did it. These days more Kara is on the schedule. I'll be running Heroics untill my last few gear pieces are all replaced and more.
The easy Heroics: Slave Pens, UB, Mech, Botanica, SV. Heroic Botanica is east smooth with a good made group easier if your good at the place for 5 badges. I run it in less than a hour and a half.
www.ardentdefender.blogspot.com
I'll also agree with the poster "johnny" above.
When I went from solid tanking Blues to tanking Heroics, every single piece of my gear was the best blue gear and every bit if it was fully gemmed with the best blue gems as well as did I have every piece of gear enchanted. Those things made a heck of a difference in my gear. The overall benefit from doing that has more than paid off. Did I replace all those blues fast with Epics no that did not happen. Those fully gemmed, enchanted solid blues have lasted me a while. I still carry them for when I need to down grade my gear to do heroics because I'm overgrared at times.
Fully enchanting and geming my old blues to do heroics was not a waste of time. It was a investment in my gear which allowed me to have a easier time tanking heroics. I see a lot of people who just refuse to get the most out of their gear unless its somehow epic.
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When I went from solid tanking Blues to tanking Heroics, every single piece of my gear was the best blue gear and every bit if it was fully gemmed with the best blue gems as well as did I have every piece of gear enchanted. Those things made a heck of a difference in my gear. The overall benefit from doing that has more than paid off. Did I replace all those blues fast with Epics no that did not happen. Those fully gemmed, enchanted solid blues have lasted me a while. I still carry them for when I need to down grade my gear to do heroics because I'm overgrared at times.
Fully enchanting and geming my old blues to do heroics was not a waste of time. It was a investment in my gear which allowed me to have a easier time tanking heroics. I see a lot of people who just refuse to get the most out of their gear unless its somehow epic.
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