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Thursday, March 27, 2008
PvP cheating
Keen and Graev have an interesting post about WoW PvP cheating in arenas. Apparently a 2v2 in really bad gear was found to have won 20-0 on an extremely high 2627 team rating, the second highest 2v2 ranking in the world. Which is pretty much impossible unless they cheated. I don't even know how all these cheating methods in arena I hear about, like win swapping or smurfing, work, but apparently there is a lot of cheating going on. Which doesn't bode well for WoW as an "e-sport".
Keen doesn't normally post anything about WoW, and I had the impression he was gloating a bit. And then he was really crushed by the news that WAR was delayed again. I couldn't help but wonder if Keen is under the impression that there will be no cheating in WAR PvP. Because I'm pretty certain that there will be. After all, WAR looks more and more like DAoC2, and people cheat in the original DAoC. And if players don't outright cheat, they still often use underhand methods, like attacking an enemy keep in the middle of the night when the enemy isn't logged on, and you can avoid the actual "PvP" part of PvP and just deal with NPC guards. There would have to be a miraculous change in human nature for no cheating or complaints about other players underhand tactics to occur in WAR.
And in a way cheating in WAR PvP is worse than in WoW. That WoW arena team that got a high ranking without ever encountering a real opponent thus never influenced the score of a real opponent. Besides possible jealousy of their rank and the PvP rewards they can buy with the points those guys acquired by cheating, their cheating doesn't harm any other player. But if you have a game where non-instanced PvP objectives really matter, and somebody cheats, it comes to the detriment of the players of the opposing faction. That increases the chance for detection, but it also increases the chance of somebody complaining about "cheating" in cases which could still be labeled as "clever tactics". I mean, I find attacking a keep at 3 am cheesy, but I wouldn't want anyone to be banned for that. So I'm pretty certain that there will be a lot of heated discussion in the future.
As for Blizzard, they should scan their own Armory for suspicious data like that, then verify that the players involved really cheated, and then ban them. If they don't go after PvP cheaters early and hard, their e-sports idea is dead in the water.
- posted by Tobold @ 1:43 PM Permanent Link
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The EVE servers are up 23 hours a day, and it's accepted that part of running a serious alliance with territorial ambitions is getting a critical mass of players on around the clock. The 30 minutes before shutdown/after startup are often the most critical times for territorial defense, and the favorite time for solo pilots to try to fly through areas commonly blockaded. When there's a conflict between a majority-European alliance and a majority-American one, for example, you get a really predictable shift in operational tempo as the world turns.
But this would be much less feasible if it weren't a single-sharded world with political structures that were more-or-less capable of scaling to thousands per alliance.
But this would be much less feasible if it weren't a single-sharded world with political structures that were more-or-less capable of scaling to thousands per alliance.
The people in question most likely bought the team and now have to pay someone weekly to join it and actually win the games for them. Since the rating is so high they most likely have to play very late at night. Patch 2.4 had some changes to how personal arena ratings affects matching which should now cause them some problems.
While Keen and Graev have great information on Warhammer they are pretty firmly in the fanboy camp now. While I will probably be leaving WoW for War when it comes out I don't believe I have to trash WoW as much as possible to justify my decision. The arena system is a work in progress and eventually the rules will be hammered out to prevent cheating.
While Keen and Graev have great information on Warhammer they are pretty firmly in the fanboy camp now. While I will probably be leaving WoW for War when it comes out I don't believe I have to trash WoW as much as possible to justify my decision. The arena system is a work in progress and eventually the rules will be hammered out to prevent cheating.
Wait so now attacking at a advantageous time (a RL tactic used since the beginning of time) is similar to blatant rule abuse and tricking a poorly designed matching system? Should we ban large guilds that attack small guilds too, since it's clearly 'cheating' to bring more fighters to a battle?
Come on Tobold, even for you this is a stretch. The WoW Arena story points out the joke that is the WoW PvP system, no matter how serious Blizzard wishes people would take it. Anyone with any PvP experience outside of WoW will attest to that. The only ones sold on the WoW PvP model are the WoW-only players (which of course there are many).
You also seem to forget that getting that high rating through blatant cheating opens up the best items to that team, letting them unfairly gear up, and then stomp legit teams using their new toys. That goes a bit farther than simple jealousy, especially in the 'I win button' gear world of WoW.
Come on Tobold, even for you this is a stretch. The WoW Arena story points out the joke that is the WoW PvP system, no matter how serious Blizzard wishes people would take it. Anyone with any PvP experience outside of WoW will attest to that. The only ones sold on the WoW PvP model are the WoW-only players (which of course there are many).
You also seem to forget that getting that high rating through blatant cheating opens up the best items to that team, letting them unfairly gear up, and then stomp legit teams using their new toys. That goes a bit farther than simple jealousy, especially in the 'I win button' gear world of WoW.
# posted by 
: 27/3/08 15:31
: 27/3/08 15:31
Wait so now attacking at a advantageous time (a RL tactic used since the beginning of time) is similar to blatant rule abuse and tricking a poorly designed matching system?
As I clearly said, it isn't cheating, but it is cheesy. In RL attacking a keep at night will get you a sleepy opponent. In DAoC / WAR attacking a keep at night will get you a fight against NPCs only, with no player opponents. Come on, you're a fan of PvP, how can you possibly support avoiding player interaction to achieve "PvP" targets without actually fighting other players. And yes, that is "similar" to the WoW arena guys, who also never actually fought real other players.
As I clearly said, it isn't cheating, but it is cheesy. In RL attacking a keep at night will get you a sleepy opponent. In DAoC / WAR attacking a keep at night will get you a fight against NPCs only, with no player opponents. Come on, you're a fan of PvP, how can you possibly support avoiding player interaction to achieve "PvP" targets without actually fighting other players. And yes, that is "similar" to the WoW arena guys, who also never actually fought real other players.
With all due respect, Tobold, a lot of your statements show you don't really understand the PvP subgame. People who "game" the arenas have a huge influence on other players. Players that cheat their way to gear that way wind up playing against lesser geared opponents. Why are they lesser geared? Because they're playing honestly.
There is no such thing as cheating in a vacuum in any game.
And the crosscomments about War and DAOC truly made me go "huh"? I don't think you played DAOC very much either.
There is no such thing as cheating in a vacuum in any game.
And the crosscomments about War and DAOC truly made me go "huh"? I don't think you played DAOC very much either.
# posted by : 27/3/08 15:54
: 27/3/08 15:54
Well you assume:
A) You can attack keeps at all times (not the case with city sieges in a game like SB, and no final decision made in WAR).
B) The enemy can get a large force online at odd times, but the defenders can't.
C) The only time a Keep will be attacked is at odd hours.
If I'm in a solid guild, and we know we can take a keep regardless of the defenders, why would we wait for the defenders to go to sleep? And if our guild is too weak to take them out when they are online, won't they just take it back the next day anyway?
Continuing your example, so you are saying instead of being offline, it would be better for those characters to be AFK and in addition to losing a keep, they should take a death penalty as well? The reason you attack at night in RL is because the enemy won't be able to fight back, exactly the same reasoning for attack when a guild has fewer members online.
PvP requires strategy beyond simple button combos, and unlike PvE where the mobs never sleep and repeat the same actions again and again, factoring the human element is just one part of the challenge in true PvP strategy.
Above all else, I highly doubt you will be able to raze the enemy capital at odd hours of the night, completely free of enemy interference, which is the main draw of WAR.
A) You can attack keeps at all times (not the case with city sieges in a game like SB, and no final decision made in WAR).
B) The enemy can get a large force online at odd times, but the defenders can't.
C) The only time a Keep will be attacked is at odd hours.
If I'm in a solid guild, and we know we can take a keep regardless of the defenders, why would we wait for the defenders to go to sleep? And if our guild is too weak to take them out when they are online, won't they just take it back the next day anyway?
Continuing your example, so you are saying instead of being offline, it would be better for those characters to be AFK and in addition to losing a keep, they should take a death penalty as well? The reason you attack at night in RL is because the enemy won't be able to fight back, exactly the same reasoning for attack when a guild has fewer members online.
PvP requires strategy beyond simple button combos, and unlike PvE where the mobs never sleep and repeat the same actions again and again, factoring the human element is just one part of the challenge in true PvP strategy.
Above all else, I highly doubt you will be able to raze the enemy capital at odd hours of the night, completely free of enemy interference, which is the main draw of WAR.
# posted by : 27/3/08 16:23
: 27/3/08 16:23
"After all, WAR looks more and more like DAoC2, and people cheat in the original DAoC. And if players don't outright cheat, they still often use underhand methods, like attacking an enemy keep in the middle of the night when the enemy isn't logged on, and you can avoid the actual "PvP" part of PvP and just deal with NPC guards. There would have to be a miraculous change in human nature for no cheating or complaints about other players underhand tactics to occur in WAR."
You say underhand methods but sometimes that's the only course of action. I was a big fan of DAoC and witnessed a few ninja relic raids. There always seemed to be 1 beast of a realm with every relic and then the other 2 realms would have to work together to get their relics back. It's one of the things I loved about DAoC.
You say underhand methods but sometimes that's the only course of action. I was a big fan of DAoC and witnessed a few ninja relic raids. There always seemed to be 1 beast of a realm with every relic and then the other 2 realms would have to work together to get their relics back. It's one of the things I loved about DAoC.
They were win swapping, not buying the team.
Basically, they have multiple teams, and tons of alts.
They log on in the middle of the night, or any low traffic time ( though its possible at any time) and queue at the same time. The losign team enters, but only 1 of the winning team enters. Both teams are communicating probably over vent. If the losing team sees only 1 other person, then its safe for the 2nd member of the winning team to join. Then the winning team gets free point. Alts in other throw away teams are used to pump the rating of other teams to boost the main team higher.
The effect it has on other players is the inflation of points for getting the arena title and mount. Its almost impossible for legitimate teams to get these, if too many smurfers are present.
Basically, they have multiple teams, and tons of alts.
They log on in the middle of the night, or any low traffic time ( though its possible at any time) and queue at the same time. The losign team enters, but only 1 of the winning team enters. Both teams are communicating probably over vent. If the losing team sees only 1 other person, then its safe for the 2nd member of the winning team to join. Then the winning team gets free point. Alts in other throw away teams are used to pump the rating of other teams to boost the main team higher.
The effect it has on other players is the inflation of points for getting the arena title and mount. Its almost impossible for legitimate teams to get these, if too many smurfers are present.
# posted by : 27/3/08 16:48
: 27/3/08 16:48
C'mon Tobold, instead of giving a neutral opinion your all up on WoW and bashing WAR which isn't out lol
And why do you think cheating in WoW isn't hurting anyone? If your the team that worked hard and barely missed some rating because some team cheated and ranked higher than you that is hurting you.
The entire e-sport thing is laughable. pvp is just that, players against players. in the open world you can get ganked, and attacking at certain times is a fact you have to deal with if that is in the game. WoW is a joke right now, no challenge at all, just a big chat room with graphics. however that is what all MMOGs become eventually.
I'll take different experiences and enjoy the ride each gives, not stick with one just because I have 30days played.
And why do you think cheating in WoW isn't hurting anyone? If your the team that worked hard and barely missed some rating because some team cheated and ranked higher than you that is hurting you.
The entire e-sport thing is laughable. pvp is just that, players against players. in the open world you can get ganked, and attacking at certain times is a fact you have to deal with if that is in the game. WoW is a joke right now, no challenge at all, just a big chat room with graphics. however that is what all MMOGs become eventually.
I'll take different experiences and enjoy the ride each gives, not stick with one just because I have 30days played.
# posted by : 27/3/08 16:56
: 27/3/08 16:56
There's also the possibility of them simply changing into noob gear before they log out, thus hiding their real gear. The 20/nil win record though does lead more credence to smurfing.
As for the logged out users keep defense problem, I wonder if it would help if an extra NPC or two would spawn when a player logs out in the keep/guild hall. Still easier to take down a keep of NPCs than PCs of course, but extra NPCs would help. Could get extra interesting if you have several alts logged out too.
As for the logged out users keep defense problem, I wonder if it would help if an extra NPC or two would spawn when a player logs out in the keep/guild hall. Still easier to take down a keep of NPCs than PCs of course, but extra NPCs would help. Could get extra interesting if you have several alts logged out too.
show me a system where someone can't cheat and I'll show you a system that can't be played or isn't worth playing.
Cheating at ratings won't really affect WoW's status as an e-Sport, because the cheaters will just get eliminated early at tournaments. People who are genuinely good players will win the tournaments because they are actually capable of doing so.
That said, the only thing that gaming the system does is provide players gear. Some folks may have things to say about it, but then again it's not really any different than high end raiders gearing their alts out with high end raid gear. Clearly the win traders aren't competing against real folks in those situations, and the arena system ELO ratings are zero sum.
--Rawr
That said, the only thing that gaming the system does is provide players gear. Some folks may have things to say about it, but then again it's not really any different than high end raiders gearing their alts out with high end raid gear. Clearly the win traders aren't competing against real folks in those situations, and the arena system ELO ratings are zero sum.
--Rawr
# posted by : 27/3/08 19:55
: 27/3/08 19:55
I'm going to have to agree with sam. Every major PvP MMO has had some cheating scandal at some point. AoC will have cheating. WAR will have cheating.
I mean, EVE is as hardcore as it gets, and the DEVS cheat.
Remember Radar in DAOC? SHOWEQ?
There may be reasons to say WoW's PvP is lacking, but cheating is absolutely not one of them. Blizz is far, far harder on cheaters than any other game I've seen.
I mean, EVE is as hardcore as it gets, and the DEVS cheat.
Remember Radar in DAOC? SHOWEQ?
There may be reasons to say WoW's PvP is lacking, but cheating is absolutely not one of them. Blizz is far, far harder on cheaters than any other game I've seen.
I guess it depends on the game you are talking about, but when time of day is used as a tactic in Eve it's certainly not cheesy or cheating. The fact that an enemy alliance can attack my player owned station at a time when I'm not online means that it becomes important for me to actually play the game. I know that my time online actually means something to my alliance because of that. It bonds the players into a tighter group and forces people to get online at key times and work as a group. It means that an organized and dedicated group of people can triumph over a larger but less organized and dedicated group. That's the essence of PvP, that's what makes PvP better than PvE.
As I've tried to say on Keen's blog once before, WAR isn't out yet and they aren't really releasing enough details about the game mechanics for anyone to really speak too much about what it will or will not be.
So, if the WoW players are actually smurfing, is that a bannable offense? If so, does Bliz actually enforce it and ban people for that? Whether people can cheat or not is kinda beside the point. What's really important is that the people in charge of the MMO take action when people cheat.
Eve has a zero tollerence policy in regard to cheating and exploits. When an exploit is identified, they are quick to post a warning/threat that people will be banned if caught doing it. There's no such thing as a perfect game, where there are no exploits and people can't cheat the system. I mean, people even cheat in simple games with only a few rules, such as checkers. How are you ever going to prevent cheating and exploits in a game with litteraly 10's of thousands of rules which change a bit with every patch, like an MMO?
As I've tried to say on Keen's blog once before, WAR isn't out yet and they aren't really releasing enough details about the game mechanics for anyone to really speak too much about what it will or will not be.
So, if the WoW players are actually smurfing, is that a bannable offense? If so, does Bliz actually enforce it and ban people for that? Whether people can cheat or not is kinda beside the point. What's really important is that the people in charge of the MMO take action when people cheat.
Eve has a zero tollerence policy in regard to cheating and exploits. When an exploit is identified, they are quick to post a warning/threat that people will be banned if caught doing it. There's no such thing as a perfect game, where there are no exploits and people can't cheat the system. I mean, people even cheat in simple games with only a few rules, such as checkers. How are you ever going to prevent cheating and exploits in a game with litteraly 10's of thousands of rules which change a bit with every patch, like an MMO?
# posted by : 27/3/08 20:57
: 27/3/08 20:57
Where there's a will, there's a way... and people always have the will to win.
That's about all I can think of that needs to be said. I wouldn't expect less, Tobold, my friend.
That's about all I can think of that needs to be said. I wouldn't expect less, Tobold, my friend.
People seem to have developed very high expectations of WAR... and yet I've seen very little combat to convince me of the same. Not to say it couldn't be great, but where's the evidence that it will be?
I"m not WAR bashing, I'm PvP bashing. :) I'm looking forward to WAR, but I'm not naive enough to assume that it will solve all the inherent problems of having PvP in a MMORPG.
Tobold, I usually enjoy your well written posts, but this one was a bit ummmm....unresearched.
Nothing in Daoc even compares to what happened here, Keen and Graev's post was in disgust, and rightfully so. There are cheats in PvP (even moreso in PvE) ,always was and will always be, cheating will help you get those extra points or to overcome a small hurdle, but it never happened in daoc that people cheated themselves to NUMBER 2 in the whole enitre WORLD! this is a complete system failure on a grand scale.
Nothing in Daoc even compares to what happened here, Keen and Graev's post was in disgust, and rightfully so. There are cheats in PvP (even moreso in PvE) ,always was and will always be, cheating will help you get those extra points or to overcome a small hurdle, but it never happened in daoc that people cheated themselves to NUMBER 2 in the whole enitre WORLD! this is a complete system failure on a grand scale.
Nothing in Daoc even compares to what happened here
That is simply not true. What happened here was people manipulating the pairing system, but staying completely inside the game. DAoC had a lot of cheating incidents involving hacks and software manipulation, which is a lot worse. In fact it isn't even clear whether smurfing is a bannable offence, but using a speed hack certainly is, in any game.
That is simply not true. What happened here was people manipulating the pairing system, but staying completely inside the game. DAoC had a lot of cheating incidents involving hacks and software manipulation, which is a lot worse. In fact it isn't even clear whether smurfing is a bannable offence, but using a speed hack certainly is, in any game.
You say it doesn't harm anyone Tobold; however, in a technical sense it does.
Arena is a zero sum game and although you can make new teams and add points to the overal system at any one time due to the nature of arenas there can only be so many 2k teams in existance.
Therefore if a team is artificially boosted in any one moment of time then that is less room for a legitimate team to make it up the ladder to 2k.
So in conclusion yes it does hurt everyone else. Albeit it may be small but as more and more people do it there will be less and less room for legitimate teams at 2k+
Arena is a zero sum game and although you can make new teams and add points to the overal system at any one time due to the nature of arenas there can only be so many 2k teams in existance.
Therefore if a team is artificially boosted in any one moment of time then that is less room for a legitimate team to make it up the ladder to 2k.
So in conclusion yes it does hurt everyone else. Albeit it may be small but as more and more people do it there will be less and less room for legitimate teams at 2k+
# posted by : 28/3/08 11:20
: 28/3/08 11:20
Sorry about the grammar above. I wish i could edit ^^;;
I still hope my overall point comes through though.
When any team boosts it hurts everyone else who does not boost.
I still hope my overall point comes through though.
When any team boosts it hurts everyone else who does not boost.
# posted by : 28/3/08 11:23
: 28/3/08 11:23
Lol! Looks like you've recently upgraded your "Taunt" skill, Tobold? ...the version that works on PvPers? You're definitely holding aggro pretty well.
I like PvP, and am hoping that WAR ends up as a good game. I question whether it'll be a WoW killer, though, since DAoC's top subscriber number was like what, 100-200k?
And until people get to try out the beta, we're all just theorizing whether it'll suck or not. And as I've already said, I hope it's good.
I like PvP, and am hoping that WAR ends up as a good game. I question whether it'll be a WoW killer, though, since DAoC's top subscriber number was like what, 100-200k?
And until people get to try out the beta, we're all just theorizing whether it'll suck or not. And as I've already said, I hope it's good.
# posted by : 28/3/08 12:29
: 28/3/08 12:29
Tobold is right about the pitfalls. I hope WAR has figured out an answer, no MMO has yet.
How do you deal with number balance, whether they be during peak hours or non-peak? NPC's are just abused, so having them balance it out usually does not work.
Will defending be made meaningful in any way? Having Quest Givers at the locations has not worked very well for LoTRO in causing players to want to defend.
I sure don't want it to degenerate into One side rolls a large chunk of the map when they have more players, then the other side does when they do. Wheeeeee.
How do you deal with number balance, whether they be during peak hours or non-peak? NPC's are just abused, so having them balance it out usually does not work.
Will defending be made meaningful in any way? Having Quest Givers at the locations has not worked very well for LoTRO in causing players to want to defend.
I sure don't want it to degenerate into One side rolls a large chunk of the map when they have more players, then the other side does when they do. Wheeeeee.
# posted by : 28/3/08 12:39
: 28/3/08 12:39
Tobold, why make blanket statements about a PvP - an area you neither enjoy, nor understand?
This piece was pure flamebait, both for PvPers and WAR enthusiasts.
No one has implied there will be no cheating in WAR except yourself.
No one has implied WAR "will solve all the inherent problems of having PvP in a MMORPG" except yourself.
You are arguing against a fictitious position - this is called the Straw Man fallacy in logic.
Shame on you.
Skavvy
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This piece was pure flamebait, both for PvPers and WAR enthusiasts.
No one has implied there will be no cheating in WAR except yourself.
No one has implied WAR "will solve all the inherent problems of having PvP in a MMORPG" except yourself.
You are arguing against a fictitious position - this is called the Straw Man fallacy in logic.
Shame on you.
Skavvy
# posted by : 31/3/08 20:17
: 31/3/08 20:17<< Home
