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Thursday, March 13, 2008
Syncaine on difficulty
Interesting article on the difficulty of World of Warcraft from Syncaine of Hardcore Casual. His problem is similar to one I mentioned not long ago: World of Warcraft in most situations offers only a single difficulty level. But while I was talking more about the difficulty level of group content being too hard for some people, Syncaine explains how the solo content can be too easy for other people.
Soloing quests in World of Warcraft is trivially easy. By definition everyone is able to do it, regardless of skill, experience, dedication and amount of available time. So if you design quests to be doable by the worst possible players, they are far too easy for the good players. And in extreme cases, like Syncaine's, your level prevents you from receiving quests that you would already be able to do, being a few levels lower but well equipped and a good player. Of course there is a certain amount of bragging in that statement, but also a kernel of truth.
I usually do quests of around my level when leveling, but I do so without excerting any effort. Yes, it's "easy mode", but for relaxation I don't mind usually. I could do higher level content, but that would actually slow down my leveling, as a mob that takes you twice as long to beat only gives like 10% more xp. Sometimes I do a few crazy hard things like soloing elites to challenge myself, but it isn't something I'll do all day long, especially if it isn't even rewarded. And while the chance to die against a higher level mob is obviously higher, the "challenge" is strictly numerical, the harder mob only has more health and hits harder, it doesn't act any more clever than the lower level mob. If you really want to apply your superior skill in WoW soloing and actually get rewarded for it, you'll need to do things like AoE farming (where my skill frankly sucks, because it is based more on speed than on tactics). The best I can do is playing cleverly in a way that I kill more mobs per hour, using less downtime, and that still isn't very exciting.
With World of Warcraft having so many servers, I sometimes wonder if it shouldn't have servers with different levels of difficulty. Would you want to play on a hard mode server, where doing a quest of your own level solo was pretty hard and involved a couple of wipes before you fully understood the encounter? That *is* the current gameplay model for raiding, so why doesn't it exist for soloing, at least for those players who'd like it?
- posted by Tobold @ 4:55 PM Permanent Link
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It would be an interesting exercise to expand the idea a step or two farther. A heroic mode server, as you suggest? Or a server with permadeath? One with xp loss? Of course, with the loot tables and/or xp gain rates modified appropriately. We all know these schemes are a thing of the past when applied to an entire game, but for those who look for the additional challenge, who knows?
Following that, it would be interesting to see the charts on player progress and character retention (ie. continuing to play on the "hard mode" server on a regular basis) in comparison to the same statistics for PvE and PvP servers, with a comparison between several different varieties of "hard mode".
Following that, it would be interesting to see the charts on player progress and character retention (ie. continuing to play on the "hard mode" server on a regular basis) in comparison to the same statistics for PvE and PvP servers, with a comparison between several different varieties of "hard mode".
# posted by 
: 13/3/08 18:27
: 13/3/08 18:27
I think you answered your own question Tobold in why perhaps a 'hard mode' server might not be as appealing as being able to select difficulty levels on the fly.
When I'm questing (almost always with my gf, who is new to WoW and overall is not as quick with the keys) it's a relaxing and enjoyable time, easy or not. The reason for my post was actually her asking me if WoW ever gets hard, and if we could do something that would be a bit of a challenge. I told her once we hit 70 we will be doing heroics and such and those will be a little tougher, and that sparked the post about why WoW is only difficult at 70.
WoW overall is relaxing, partly due to how easy it is. If you made it harder all the time, I think some of that appeal would fade. Having the option to select difficulty each quest or instance however would give each player a customizable way to balance things.
Also, I think just upping the HP and damage would work for the most part. Currently in WoW you can ignore any ability a mob has now and just brute force kill it. Increasing the hp/damage would force a player to actually pay attention to a special ability and deal with it. Right now if a caster mob is queuing up a spell, whether I stun him to stop it or not does not really matter, I know even eating a fireball the mob will die. On a harder mode, not stopping that fireball will be the difference between a complete quest and a GY run.
That's really what already happens in raiding, you can't ignore the mobs abilities. When a raid goes on farm, notice how certain mob abilities begin to get ignored, because the raid can simply brute force their way through.
WoW pre-70 is basically raiding on permanent farm status.
When I'm questing (almost always with my gf, who is new to WoW and overall is not as quick with the keys) it's a relaxing and enjoyable time, easy or not. The reason for my post was actually her asking me if WoW ever gets hard, and if we could do something that would be a bit of a challenge. I told her once we hit 70 we will be doing heroics and such and those will be a little tougher, and that sparked the post about why WoW is only difficult at 70.
WoW overall is relaxing, partly due to how easy it is. If you made it harder all the time, I think some of that appeal would fade. Having the option to select difficulty each quest or instance however would give each player a customizable way to balance things.
Also, I think just upping the HP and damage would work for the most part. Currently in WoW you can ignore any ability a mob has now and just brute force kill it. Increasing the hp/damage would force a player to actually pay attention to a special ability and deal with it. Right now if a caster mob is queuing up a spell, whether I stun him to stop it or not does not really matter, I know even eating a fireball the mob will die. On a harder mode, not stopping that fireball will be the difference between a complete quest and a GY run.
That's really what already happens in raiding, you can't ignore the mobs abilities. When a raid goes on farm, notice how certain mob abilities begin to get ignored, because the raid can simply brute force their way through.
WoW pre-70 is basically raiding on permanent farm status.
# posted by : 13/3/08 18:47
: 13/3/08 18:47
By asking that question Tobold, you're completely ignoring the core game mechanics of WoW - which you actually explain pretty spot on in your post:
"[...] the 'challenge' is strictly numerical, the harder mob only has more health and hits harder, it doesn't act any more clever than the lower level mob."
In short that means gear > skill ...which leads to difficulty = time.
Without changing the game mechanics of WoW a 'hard mode server' just means spending more time while progressing.
In groups, raids and PvP you've got the dynamic challenge of working together with (or against) other people. In solo-PvE the challenge is simply not there. Once you master the use of a few hotkeys combat is trivial, no matter the amount of HP or DPS.
You said it yourself: the challenge lies in how effective you can grind.
So to make a 'hard mode server' enjoyable (or just worth the risk) with the current game mechanics the rewards (XP and loot) would have to scale with the potentially increased need of time.
I just don't see the point.
If increased challenge equals increased fun, mental reward, or other gameplay related factors, I actually COULD see the point.
"[...] the 'challenge' is strictly numerical, the harder mob only has more health and hits harder, it doesn't act any more clever than the lower level mob."
In short that means gear > skill ...which leads to difficulty = time.
Without changing the game mechanics of WoW a 'hard mode server' just means spending more time while progressing.
In groups, raids and PvP you've got the dynamic challenge of working together with (or against) other people. In solo-PvE the challenge is simply not there. Once you master the use of a few hotkeys combat is trivial, no matter the amount of HP or DPS.
You said it yourself: the challenge lies in how effective you can grind.
So to make a 'hard mode server' enjoyable (or just worth the risk) with the current game mechanics the rewards (XP and loot) would have to scale with the potentially increased need of time.
I just don't see the point.
If increased challenge equals increased fun, mental reward, or other gameplay related factors, I actually COULD see the point.
Reminds me of a comic I saw recently, where a raid killed some boss (Illidan I think it was) and the game unlocks Nightmare difficulty, and people go back to starting zones in full epic gear and get killed by Hogger again :)
The biggest problem with having harder quests or encounters is that people would just group up and do those in groups, possibly bringing us back to the forced grouping discussion.
The most difficult solo encounter I can think of in the game was the hunter epic bow quest, before TBC. It was one of the encounters I had most fun in the game (considering all 4 as one encounter). They all took 4-5 tries to kill, but apart from the item reward, the excitement of having killed them all was amazing.
The problem with those kinds of encounters is that each class has it's own strengths and weaknesses. If a mob has a spell that has to be interrupted or it means huge amounts of damage, well not all classes can interrupt it. If it hits very hard, ranged classes would have an advantage, etc. An encounter that's challenging for one class is impossible for another. In a raid environment it's easier to assume there'll be one of each class at least and worry less about class strengths/weaknesses.
The biggest problem with having harder quests or encounters is that people would just group up and do those in groups, possibly bringing us back to the forced grouping discussion.
The most difficult solo encounter I can think of in the game was the hunter epic bow quest, before TBC. It was one of the encounters I had most fun in the game (considering all 4 as one encounter). They all took 4-5 tries to kill, but apart from the item reward, the excitement of having killed them all was amazing.
The problem with those kinds of encounters is that each class has it's own strengths and weaknesses. If a mob has a spell that has to be interrupted or it means huge amounts of damage, well not all classes can interrupt it. If it hits very hard, ranged classes would have an advantage, etc. An encounter that's challenging for one class is impossible for another. In a raid environment it's easier to assume there'll be one of each class at least and worry less about class strengths/weaknesses.
# posted by : 13/3/08 21:46
: 13/3/08 21:46
I won't go so far as to say Wow's approach to difficulty is bad design. However, other games have done it SO much better, I wish WoW had incorporated some of their technology.
As someone on Syncaine's site said, Anarchy Online had variable difficulty years ago, and by variable I mean almost analog granularity. You could pick a mission with essentially greys (and crappy loot) or a mission with deep red one-shotters (and fabulous loot). No other game has yet matched this level of scalable challenge.
Of course, human nature is a constant, and as soon as you add scalable difficulty, you get a whole crop of balance problems. Oh noes, paladins can solo "+4" quests, but Mages are stuck at "-1". Write a forum post!!
Nonetheless, I think the whole "too-hard/too-easy" issue is only going to be resolved by a variable-difficulty game. I think that's one of the areas where new MMOS truly have a chance at out-doing WoW.
As someone on Syncaine's site said, Anarchy Online had variable difficulty years ago, and by variable I mean almost analog granularity. You could pick a mission with essentially greys (and crappy loot) or a mission with deep red one-shotters (and fabulous loot). No other game has yet matched this level of scalable challenge.
Of course, human nature is a constant, and as soon as you add scalable difficulty, you get a whole crop of balance problems. Oh noes, paladins can solo "+4" quests, but Mages are stuck at "-1". Write a forum post!!
Nonetheless, I think the whole "too-hard/too-easy" issue is only going to be resolved by a variable-difficulty game. I think that's one of the areas where new MMOS truly have a chance at out-doing WoW.
I'm not a raider. I don't care for raiding and don't have the time for it. I do love five man content, especially hard five man content. The hardest five man content that I've ever done is Mistmoore with an untwinked group at the appropriate level range.
For the EQ vets, is there any five man content in WoW that has such a small margin of error and such a high risk of TPW as Castle MM?
For the EQ vets, is there any five man content in WoW that has such a small margin of error and such a high risk of TPW as Castle MM?
# posted by : 13/3/08 22:03
: 13/3/08 22:03
"For the EQ vets, is there any five man content in WoW that has such a small margin of error and such a high risk of TPW as Castle MM"
Just off the top of my head, Gnomeregan. Especially near the end with the DI dwarves and the landmines. I've seen a 60 Paladin die in that spot.
I'm a grizzled EQ vet myself, and in general I'd say WoW instances are harder than EQ's dungeons (many an EQ dungeon was soloed). Of course, EQ was still deadly outdoors (soloing Umbral Plains), whereas outside WoW is a cakewalk.
Just off the top of my head, Gnomeregan. Especially near the end with the DI dwarves and the landmines. I've seen a 60 Paladin die in that spot.
I'm a grizzled EQ vet myself, and in general I'd say WoW instances are harder than EQ's dungeons (many an EQ dungeon was soloed). Of course, EQ was still deadly outdoors (soloing Umbral Plains), whereas outside WoW is a cakewalk.
I think the people above have valid arguements for the most part, but in the end, the answer for them is that they would not like to play a hard mode server. Personally, I think the idea is great. Maybe I wouldn't have wanted to do it the first time through (actually, I know I wouldn't want to), but now, I would be totally on board to signing up for hard mode. A tougher challenge would be exactly what I'm looking for. You wouldn't even have to change the loot tables or the XP gain, taking longer and having to work harder at it would be the whole point. And with hundreds of servers, Blizzard could afford to make a handfull of them hardcore mode for those interested. For the rest, they just wouldn't have to play on those servers.
# posted by : 13/3/08 22:39
: 13/3/08 22:39
Regarding syncaine's comment and the question "why is it only difficult at 70", remember when leveling up WoW was full of group quests, elites to fight, and lots of chains you needed groups for. Not always 5, but more than 1. You could skip it all if you wanted, but they were there for the best xp and rewards, and were fun and created many memorable experiences.
Now WoW is so easy it's not fun anymore. Leveling is now just a boring chore that they give you bonus xp for so you don't have to spend as much time doing.
Now WoW is so easy it's not fun anymore. Leveling is now just a boring chore that they give you bonus xp for so you don't have to spend as much time doing.
WoW needs a few “hardcore” servers. I play on a PVP server to help spice up the challenge, well, not much challenge in being ganked, but I welcome it to help throw off the monotony from questing.
The problem with EQ's early group content is people skipped it. Pugging MM, Siren's Grotto, Juggs in Seb, etc was too risky so very few bothered. Cazic Thule, anyone? I could never get a group there. The risk of dying and losing experience was to detrimental and steered players to safe zones that were boring and stupid.
For an "easy" game I find a lot of the TBC dungeons somewhat challenging.
There’s definitely several sides to WoW. Progressing level wise is very easy, but yet, it can be just as grueling as EQ was in regards to the honor and reputation loot grinds.
I recently pugged my through 60-70 on my warlock and I wiped more than in my experiences with EverQuest pugs. Except for maybe the Plane of Justice Trials... I had to group most of the time to level in EverQuest. I played a rogue, soloing was not an option back than. I spent more time LFG than I did in groups.
The problem with EQ's early group content is people skipped it. Pugging MM, Siren's Grotto, Juggs in Seb, etc was too risky so very few bothered. Cazic Thule, anyone? I could never get a group there. The risk of dying and losing experience was to detrimental and steered players to safe zones that were boring and stupid.
For an "easy" game I find a lot of the TBC dungeons somewhat challenging.
There’s definitely several sides to WoW. Progressing level wise is very easy, but yet, it can be just as grueling as EQ was in regards to the honor and reputation loot grinds.
I recently pugged my through 60-70 on my warlock and I wiped more than in my experiences with EverQuest pugs. Except for maybe the Plane of Justice Trials... I had to group most of the time to level in EverQuest. I played a rogue, soloing was not an option back than. I spent more time LFG than I did in groups.
# posted by : 14/3/08 01:41
: 14/3/08 01:41
I've played WoW for awhile and I for one was rather pissed off when they nerfed Azeroth. Half the elites are gone, instance scaled down, increases exp and less needed to lvl. Yeah, over the course of a few months Blizz turned the grind to 60 completely solo-able. This should not be the case for a Massively Mutliplayer Online game, what's the point? Why not my add more npcs and make the game playable off-line?
I've heard a great deal of things that WoW has improved on over other MMORPGS such as EQ, but at least you were forced to group together and actually take advantage of the fact that there are other players out there. When was the last time you were grateful to see a fellow player while questing? When didn't you immediately think "Oh screw this guy, I bet he's after my mob/ore/whatever. I'm getting it first"?
What I want to see more of is more dangerous outdoor areas, like one where you have to be in a group else the normal mobs would destroy you. A game where you are in a group at some point or another every time you play. A MMORPG where you actually are engaging with other players and not to tell to stop spamming the trade line.
WoW desperately needs more group content, without it what's the point of having millions of other people playing with you? So as far as a "epic mode" server? Why not, I'd sign up for that.
I've heard a great deal of things that WoW has improved on over other MMORPGS such as EQ, but at least you were forced to group together and actually take advantage of the fact that there are other players out there. When was the last time you were grateful to see a fellow player while questing? When didn't you immediately think "Oh screw this guy, I bet he's after my mob/ore/whatever. I'm getting it first"?
What I want to see more of is more dangerous outdoor areas, like one where you have to be in a group else the normal mobs would destroy you. A game where you are in a group at some point or another every time you play. A MMORPG where you actually are engaging with other players and not to tell to stop spamming the trade line.
WoW desperately needs more group content, without it what's the point of having millions of other people playing with you? So as far as a "epic mode" server? Why not, I'd sign up for that.
You can really spot this as bad game design. Probably because volume is more important than quality, but anyhow.
This is related to the matter of variable feedback as presented by Raph Koster here:
Audio: http://itc.conversationsnetwork.org/shows/detail3493.html#
Slides: http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/03/29/etech07-the-core-of-fun/
This is related to the matter of variable feedback as presented by Raph Koster here:
Audio: http://itc.conversationsnetwork.org/shows/detail3493.html#
Slides: http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/03/29/etech07-the-core-of-fun/
# posted by : 14/3/08 10:09
: 14/3/08 10:09
The anonymous poster who identified the core difficulty as being the fact that "each class has its own strength and weaknesses".
This makes it impossible to design hard soloable content that is equally accessible to all classes.
The best solution I can see is to include recruitable henchmen like Guild Wars Heroes.
This makes it impossible to design hard soloable content that is equally accessible to all classes.
The best solution I can see is to include recruitable henchmen like Guild Wars Heroes.
vivendi wont spend the cash to create the content
they just want to milk the cow
they just want to milk the cow
# posted by : 14/3/08 14:54
: 14/3/08 14:54
I think a lot of this could be fixed if they'd institute some sort of system that "downranked" any high level members of your party so that if a 70 joined a group of 30's for Scarlet monastary or even an escort quest he or she would become the equivilant of a 30ish character in gear that was green/blue/or purple level 30 equivilants of what they currently had on.
It would be the equivilant of the EQ mentoring system. It would end all those runs where 70's just power lower level alts through for gear. I bet over time you'd find that the players that got to 70 after that would be better group players.
It would be the equivilant of the EQ mentoring system. It would end all those runs where 70's just power lower level alts through for gear. I bet over time you'd find that the players that got to 70 after that would be better group players.
and just to add to what I just posted. I'd happily run instances with a higher level character with something like downranking. But I HATE to run lowbies through stuff for gear. And I hate to be run through instances for gear even more.
A server that's more difficult than standard WoW? UO did this with the Siege Perilous shard and it was great. It's funny how a game 10+ years old was able to incorporate so many of the ideas and suggestions given today. Many people see WoW as the pinnacle of MMORPGs...frankly, I think it has a long way to go to catch up with everything UO offered.
# posted by : 14/3/08 22:41
: 14/3/08 22:41
On my other machine I have just finished a mission solo in City of Heroes on 'Unyielding' difficulty which is setting level 5 of 6 on their difficulty level scale, and now I'm heading to the NPC in my current zone who deals with difficulty levels in order to turn it down to 'Tenacious' (level 2 of 6) as I have the nasty suspicion that the next mission in my quest chain contains the same Elite Boss for whom my character needed 4-5 deaths to defeat the mission before last. However since he's an EB I suspect that the small level change in his difficulty won't make a hell of a lot of difference :P
If I had been grouped with enough people rather than solo on that mission -- or had I been solo and on the highest difficulty -- then this guy would have been an even tougher Arch Villain rather than a mere Elite Boss. Also if I had been grouped spawn sizes and levels of mobs would have been upped from the base level beyond that done simply for being on 'Unyielding'.
So yes, it can be done and on a per mission basis taking into account team size even, but I'm pretty sure that for that to work successfully it really helps to have designed things from the start so that all missions are instances, and so that there's many different class mixes when grouped with which you can successfully complete even the hardest missions.
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If I had been grouped with enough people rather than solo on that mission -- or had I been solo and on the highest difficulty -- then this guy would have been an even tougher Arch Villain rather than a mere Elite Boss. Also if I had been grouped spawn sizes and levels of mobs would have been upped from the base level beyond that done simply for being on 'Unyielding'.
So yes, it can be done and on a per mission basis taking into account team size even, but I'm pretty sure that for that to work successfully it really helps to have designed things from the start so that all missions are instances, and so that there's many different class mixes when grouped with which you can successfully complete even the hardest missions.
# posted by : 15/3/08 12:44
: 15/3/08 12:44<< Home
