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Wednesday, April 09, 2008
e-Gambling
I'm a gamer, not a gambler. While I'm sometimes interested in the games themselves that are used for gambling, the idea that I could win money by winning a game never appealed to me. Yet I'm aware that this isn't true for most of humanity, for whom winning, especially winning money, is more important than the act of playing. A reader alerted me that the release of Magic the Gathering Online v3.0 is imminent. And when I start the launcher of World of Warcraft, I get the news that I can now sign up for the WoW e-sports arena tournament. And I can't help but draw some parallels.
I played Magic the Gathering both in paper and online form for many years, and even was a DCI certified judge at one of the World Championships. But with the online version the game turned more and more into gambling, until I just couldn't stand it any more. The profit motive of everyone involved had just become too strong. You couldn't trade cards any more, cards were only bought and sold at a profit to the trader. And the playing was dominated by so-called draft tournaments, which were a cleverly disguised form of online gambling: 8 participants each put $13 into a pot, play a tournament whose winner is determined by a combination of skill and luck, and the winner takes home $33, the near-winners get less, and the losers come out empty. The only difference to lets say online poker is that the bet and winnings aren't in cash but in product, which is nevertheless convertible into cash. The game faded into the background, it became all about making money.
Now you can pay Blizzard $20 to participate in a tournament where $250,000 is divided among the winners. As recently discussed, WoW PvP has some elements of rock, paper, scissor in it. So while arena PvP certainly is skill-based, the random pairings do have an element of luck. And a lot of people are going to play this not because they want to have fun, or want to prove that they are the best, but because of the lure of a big pot of prize money. It isn't so much e-sports as e-gambling, and I think it will harm the game. Thank god it happens on a separate server!
- posted by Tobold @ 8:05 AM Permanent Link
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I was looking into playing a little MtG a few months back. They now have leagues that only commons can be used in, thus you can create decks on a budget and not get into the expensive trading for rares con.
# posted by 
: 9/4/08 12:13
: 9/4/08 12:13
As a longtime player of M:tG I feel I have to vouch for the game a little bit here.
Truly there are some aspects of Magic that are more akin to gambling than most people (including me) could like. Sealed deck tournaments are pretty much totally luck of the draw, as even the best player in the room can get stuck with a pile of trash and drop out half-way through the swiss pairings.
Draft is very different. Though there is still an element of luck, by and large the best drafters are the ones who learn to read the color signals of the other players at the table, and pick cards accordingly. I've known drafters who had near-photographic memory of every card in every pack that got passed around, and they could, with very good accuracy, point out who took what card at what time.
The biggest contributor of uncertainty to the whole mess is actually the other players. A good drafter can be totally thrown by one really bad player at the table, as his or her choices might not follow the normal heirarchy of card power.
Magic, at its heart though, is a game heavily influenced by chance in general. You can design your deck, but you have no way of controlling (generally) what you draw from turn to turn. In that I will agree with you, but the rush of uncertainty in this case is what helps keep the game so exciting.
This e-sport thing is troubling to me not because of the money involved, but because of how it affects the rest of the game. I'm getting really tired of seeing sweeping class changes because of some imbalance in the pvp game. The proposed nerf to Lifetap in 2.4 is a perfect example. Maybe, by moving the league to its own server, Blizzard is moving towards a model where abilities/skills behave differently in a pvp environment than they do in pve. That would certainly be interesting.
Truly there are some aspects of Magic that are more akin to gambling than most people (including me) could like. Sealed deck tournaments are pretty much totally luck of the draw, as even the best player in the room can get stuck with a pile of trash and drop out half-way through the swiss pairings.
Draft is very different. Though there is still an element of luck, by and large the best drafters are the ones who learn to read the color signals of the other players at the table, and pick cards accordingly. I've known drafters who had near-photographic memory of every card in every pack that got passed around, and they could, with very good accuracy, point out who took what card at what time.
The biggest contributor of uncertainty to the whole mess is actually the other players. A good drafter can be totally thrown by one really bad player at the table, as his or her choices might not follow the normal heirarchy of card power.
Magic, at its heart though, is a game heavily influenced by chance in general. You can design your deck, but you have no way of controlling (generally) what you draw from turn to turn. In that I will agree with you, but the rush of uncertainty in this case is what helps keep the game so exciting.
This e-sport thing is troubling to me not because of the money involved, but because of how it affects the rest of the game. I'm getting really tired of seeing sweeping class changes because of some imbalance in the pvp game. The proposed nerf to Lifetap in 2.4 is a perfect example. Maybe, by moving the league to its own server, Blizzard is moving towards a model where abilities/skills behave differently in a pvp environment than they do in pve. That would certainly be interesting.
# posted by : 9/4/08 13:07
: 9/4/08 13:07
To be fair ferenczys, the skill elements you mention in your post about Magic are the very same skill sets utilized by poker players.
Poker, to my knowledge, is considered gambling. The point Tobold makes, in so far as Magic had become a form of online gambling, is accurate so far as that goes.
Poker, to my knowledge, is considered gambling. The point Tobold makes, in so far as Magic had become a form of online gambling, is accurate so far as that goes.
# posted by : 9/4/08 14:47
: 9/4/08 14:47
I wouldn't call WoW arena tourney gambling. It it involves more skill, and strategy, and less luck. Some elements of luck are involved.
Hitting critical strikes, random resists, and more importantly....the dreaded class vs. counter class debate. This should all be considered upfront, and a good team will put down their best games and tactics.
I can't say that a lot of skilled players won't win, but what I can say is that a non-skilled player (I didn't say noob) won't win either. I'm sure the winners of this tourney will be very skilled.
Hitting critical strikes, random resists, and more importantly....the dreaded class vs. counter class debate. This should all be considered upfront, and a good team will put down their best games and tactics.
I can't say that a lot of skilled players won't win, but what I can say is that a non-skilled player (I didn't say noob) won't win either. I'm sure the winners of this tourney will be very skilled.
I feel that "rock paper scissor" overly simplifies the PvP scene and is perhaps almost insulting to hardcore PvP players. Perhaps you are confusing the WoW 3v3 arena tournament with duels? While a certain "rock paper scissor" balance exists in class 1v1s (and some would argue 2v2s), 3v3 and 5v5 play is largely based on skill and coordination. Of course team composition still matters (easy to see from the latest trends of counter-comps and counter-counter-comps), but the tournament mitigates this by allowing players to roll 3 level 70 characters so (unlike in normal arena) skilled players can vary their lineup to maximize their effectiveness against most of their opponents. The winner of the tournament is not the luckiest, but the most skilled - certainly not gambling, imo.
I feel that "rock paper scissor" overly simplifies the PvP scene.
Of course it over simplifies it. It’s a simple analogy to a real complaint. The fact that it can so brilliantly explain the flaw in three words and do it in way that mocks Blizzard is testament to why its such a popular way to describe the design issue. The issue at hand is that skill and coordination (while important) are less important than team composition. I’ll go even farther and say that skill and coordination are less important than gear.
Presumably, with the rating system, people with similar gear, skill and coordination are more likely to match up against each other. If that’s the case, then team composition plays an even larger role and the seemingly random draw is more likely to determine the outcome of the match. The counter and counter-counter are simply trying to take advantage of the most popular combinations and stack themselves against the random draw. It might be more complex, but it’s still “rock paper scissor” with some people playing paper because they see some that 50-60% play rock.
Of course it over simplifies it. It’s a simple analogy to a real complaint. The fact that it can so brilliantly explain the flaw in three words and do it in way that mocks Blizzard is testament to why its such a popular way to describe the design issue. The issue at hand is that skill and coordination (while important) are less important than team composition. I’ll go even farther and say that skill and coordination are less important than gear.
Presumably, with the rating system, people with similar gear, skill and coordination are more likely to match up against each other. If that’s the case, then team composition plays an even larger role and the seemingly random draw is more likely to determine the outcome of the match. The counter and counter-counter are simply trying to take advantage of the most popular combinations and stack themselves against the random draw. It might be more complex, but it’s still “rock paper scissor” with some people playing paper because they see some that 50-60% play rock.
I believe I have even seen a blue post that refers to the balance as "rock, paper, scissors"
Composition matters. That is a fact. 1 v 1, 2 v 2, 3 v 3, or 5 v 5. Hell, I have been in Alterac Valley where there were a disproportionate number of one class over another and seen the old Rock Paper theme play out there and that is 40 v 40.
Our 3 v 3 team does so-so. We have more Season 3 gear than not now, but we are finding that as gear equalizes, class composition starts to mean more and more. There are some class combinations that we destroy, and there are others that make me want to exit the arena when I see them.
For those of us with an attachment to our character, significant investment in their gear, and a desire to play together as a group; the idea of abandoning them for a better class makeup just so we can excel at one part of the game is unacceptable. It is the same reason I don’t wish to roll another class to raid. Respeccing can help with that, but it doesn’t change the fundamental synchronicity inherent in certain class combinations. This is true for every part of the game. Hence the “need x number of CC for MrT” starts to sound a lot like “need healing druid hybrid for 3 man”
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Composition matters. That is a fact. 1 v 1, 2 v 2, 3 v 3, or 5 v 5. Hell, I have been in Alterac Valley where there were a disproportionate number of one class over another and seen the old Rock Paper theme play out there and that is 40 v 40.
Our 3 v 3 team does so-so. We have more Season 3 gear than not now, but we are finding that as gear equalizes, class composition starts to mean more and more. There are some class combinations that we destroy, and there are others that make me want to exit the arena when I see them.
For those of us with an attachment to our character, significant investment in their gear, and a desire to play together as a group; the idea of abandoning them for a better class makeup just so we can excel at one part of the game is unacceptable. It is the same reason I don’t wish to roll another class to raid. Respeccing can help with that, but it doesn’t change the fundamental synchronicity inherent in certain class combinations. This is true for every part of the game. Hence the “need x number of CC for MrT” starts to sound a lot like “need healing druid hybrid for 3 man”
# posted by : 9/4/08 21:30
: 9/4/08 21:30<< Home
