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Wednesday, April 16, 2008
Honor botting
Wow, I didn't even know that existed! Not Addicted has a piece about using bots to farm WoW battleground honor. The author argues that he can't compete in the arena without having lots of PvP gear, and all his PvE gear isn't helping, because it lacks important PvP stats like resilience. So he needs to grind honor in battlegrounds to get PvP epics, and as he finds that boring, he uses Glider to do so. Now I know there were people being essentially AFK in AV, and I knew bots existed to farm gold and xp, but this is honor botting. Not that the bot does some actual PvP, but he moves around and thus avoids getting AFK flagged. Funny quote:
"The best part about this is that now that I know how it reacts, it’s fun to watch the screen and see other people bumping into things, strafing around, and walking backwards five feet. Half the people in the battleground are gliding as well, and the other half are the retards I really don't have any interest playing with anyway; the guys who shout orders in capslock like they’re Genghis Fucking Kahn, or read some quote on a CoD4 loading screen and suddenly think they're Sun Tzu."No wonder the guys trying to get the others to use some strategy fail, if half of their army consists of bots. This just shows how Blizzard's AFK flag solution totally failed to solve the problem. Can it really be so difficult for Blizzard to tell a bot from a real player, and set up a system where somebody who doesn't participate in the action gets no honor? As enemies in PvP aren't as static as enemies in PvE, I don't see how somebody could bot and actually do enough damage or healing to not stand out on the final score table.
But most of all it reveals that curious attitude of seeing a MMORPG as a serious of obnoxious obstacles before at some mythical point you reach the "fun" game. For me the advancement has always been the fun part, and being stuck at a high level cap with ultra-slow or no progression has always frustrated me. So I don't see the point of bots at all. It reminds me of a quote from Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency, by Douglas Adams: "Dishwashers washed tedious dishes for you, thus saving you the bother of washing them yourself, video recorders watched tedious television for you, thus saving you the bother of looking at it yourself". Obviously if you use a video recorder like that, and never watch what it recorded, you didn't need one in the first place. And if you use a bot to play a game for you, maybe you didn't need the game in the first place. If by some means you could get to the absolute highest point of a MMORPG, the point where you have all the very best gear, and all the reputation, recipes, honor, gold you could possibly need, what would be the point of continueing to play?
- posted by Tobold @ 5:55 PM Permanent Link
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A staggering number of players simply like showing off their gear. it's retarded, I know.
# posted by 
: 16/4/08 18:52
: 16/4/08 18:52
Can it really be so difficult for Blizzard to tell a bot from a real player, and set up a system where somebody who doesn't participate in the action gets no honor?
Not really, since players have done it already.
Not really, since players have done it already.
The AFK flag has nothing to do with botting in BGs. There were always bots that hit the space bar and such prior to them introducing that flag mechanic. The bot he describes is not even a very good bot in that it has very poor collision avoidance and mapping. There are others that know where they are in relation to each graveyard and will actually move towards and contribute towards achieving the objectives. The bot you describe is very very easy for player’s to report and I can tell you with 100% certainty that nowhere near 50% of the battleground consists of those types of bots.
The current trend in bot writing today is to mimic player behavior. The assumption is that Blizzard is implementing more and more server side detection and that the only way to avoid that detection is to act as humanly as possible. A player who is using such a bot as you describe is asking to get banned. If you see such a player, report them and if they continue that behavior for any prolonged period of time than they will be banned within a few weeks.
As for bots in general in BGs – well, in a weird way, I would rather have those players using the more botting sophisticated bots I describe than AFKing. At least a bot could contribute a little bit to the effort.
The current trend in bot writing today is to mimic player behavior. The assumption is that Blizzard is implementing more and more server side detection and that the only way to avoid that detection is to act as humanly as possible. A player who is using such a bot as you describe is asking to get banned. If you see such a player, report them and if they continue that behavior for any prolonged period of time than they will be banned within a few weeks.
As for bots in general in BGs – well, in a weird way, I would rather have those players using the more botting sophisticated bots I describe than AFKing. At least a bot could contribute a little bit to the effort.
But most of all it reveals that curious attitude of seeing a MMORPG as a serious of obnoxious obstacles before at some mythical point you reach the "fun" game. For me the advancement has always been the fun part, and being stuck at a high level cap with ultra-slow or no progression has always frustrated me.
For world of warcraft and similar games, designed around the idea that people will be constantly trying to get better gear and experience, it makes sense that the people who enjoy it most would like the character progression, just because that's what they will be doing all the time. For non-MMORPGs, and a few RPGs designed slightly differently, "progression" is a much smaller part of the game, and people will be playing different goals (I use "progression" here to mean things like research and city expansion in Civilization type games, single player game completion in a lot of games, etc.)
Even in MMORPG type games, there are a lot of playstyles or possible things to do that character progression gets in the way of . Exploration, for example, is harder if you need to be a certain level or have done certain quests to successfully move around an area, and some people who just like to try out characters will have frustrations from having to level up or otherwise spend lots of time playing just to get a few skills. (There are other issues as well, left out for space.)
For world of warcraft and similar games, designed around the idea that people will be constantly trying to get better gear and experience, it makes sense that the people who enjoy it most would like the character progression, just because that's what they will be doing all the time. For non-MMORPGs, and a few RPGs designed slightly differently, "progression" is a much smaller part of the game, and people will be playing different goals (I use "progression" here to mean things like research and city expansion in Civilization type games, single player game completion in a lot of games, etc.)
Even in MMORPG type games, there are a lot of playstyles or possible things to do that character progression gets in the way of . Exploration, for example, is harder if you need to be a certain level or have done certain quests to successfully move around an area, and some people who just like to try out characters will have frustrations from having to level up or otherwise spend lots of time playing just to get a few skills. (There are other issues as well, left out for space.)
On the actual subject of botting in battlegrounds, it is not surprising at all that this occurs. The step from AFKing to bots is just technology and programming, all of the reasons to do both are pretty much the same.
I'd almost say that this poor fellow needs to get banned so that he can get on with the rest of his life... but I pity his poor wife and employer.
# posted by : 16/4/08 19:29
: 16/4/08 19:29
Why does the "fun part" have to be the 15 seconds when you open the doors onto the gleaming treasure horde, and not the 4 hours immediately preceding?
@Tobold:"If by some means you could get to the absolute highest point of a MMORPG, the point where you have all the very best gear, and all the reputation, recipes, honor, gold you could possibly need, what would be the point of continueing to play?"
This goes back to one of your previous posts about poor game design influencing player behavior. I see WoW as a sequence of:
FunThing->BoringThing->FunThing->BoringThing->FunThing->...
For example, I really like AV, Arena and EOTS. I *hate* Arathi Basin, yet in order to get my belt I need 40 marks there. I want the belt so I can be more effective in the BGs I like, but I have to play 40 grueling AB games to advance my goal.
I'd love to try a Druid in Arena (FunThing), but I'm under no illusion that leveling my 5th character (and second Druid!) to 70 will be anything but an extended chore (BoringThing). I suspect many botters glide through the BoringThings, so they can get to the FunThings (whatever that may be for them).
If there were a game where macroing/botting were legal, I'm sure I'd macro parts of it.
This goes back to one of your previous posts about poor game design influencing player behavior. I see WoW as a sequence of:
FunThing->BoringThing->FunThing->BoringThing->FunThing->...
For example, I really like AV, Arena and EOTS. I *hate* Arathi Basin, yet in order to get my belt I need 40 marks there. I want the belt so I can be more effective in the BGs I like, but I have to play 40 grueling AB games to advance my goal.
I'd love to try a Druid in Arena (FunThing), but I'm under no illusion that leveling my 5th character (and second Druid!) to 70 will be anything but an extended chore (BoringThing). I suspect many botters glide through the BoringThings, so they can get to the FunThings (whatever that may be for them).
If there were a game where macroing/botting were legal, I'm sure I'd macro parts of it.
I wouldn't say that half of a given match is AFK botting, but there are certainly a few. It's most frustrating in WSG (which people do because they need to lose however many matches to get their tokens) because 1-2 AFK in a 10 man raid is felt more closely than a similar proportion of a larger group. The powerleveling spammers are also happy to advertise that they will get you honor instead of exp, though I laugh at anyone who tries that and finds their account banned for gold spamming, and all their stuff sold to give cash to a customer.
Are you guys seriously this stupid? There are many reasons to BG bot.
1) If you actually intend to play arena walking in in blues or pve purples will not be fun. Good luck getting out of the 1600 bracket within 2 months.
2) Free epics. Way better than any gear you can get off the auction hall. They may want to use the character to farm gold for them to sell, or just hang out with their friends. Sucks to have an alt then have to spend 2+ months gearing them out in crap gear to actually not hold your friends back entirely.
3) An experiment to see how realistic they can get the bots.
Also note that more recent bots fight back VERY well, have excellent pathing and have goals to keep in mind such as capping flags, towers etc. Yes many of the bots are very stupid and run into things. Don't for a second think that there are not sophisticated bots capable of looking quite human.
Remember: Not everyone plays the game for the purples. Some people just like to gank or straight up pvp. For those people who are sick of the grind, botting is one of the better options.
1) If you actually intend to play arena walking in in blues or pve purples will not be fun. Good luck getting out of the 1600 bracket within 2 months.
2) Free epics. Way better than any gear you can get off the auction hall. They may want to use the character to farm gold for them to sell, or just hang out with their friends. Sucks to have an alt then have to spend 2+ months gearing them out in crap gear to actually not hold your friends back entirely.
3) An experiment to see how realistic they can get the bots.
Also note that more recent bots fight back VERY well, have excellent pathing and have goals to keep in mind such as capping flags, towers etc. Yes many of the bots are very stupid and run into things. Don't for a second think that there are not sophisticated bots capable of looking quite human.
Remember: Not everyone plays the game for the purples. Some people just like to gank or straight up pvp. For those people who are sick of the grind, botting is one of the better options.
# posted by : 16/4/08 20:46
: 16/4/08 20:46
A staggering number of players simply like showing off their gear. it's retarded, I know.
-= # # =
I suport your opinion.
~Uncle Sy
-= # # =
I suport your opinion.
~Uncle Sy
# posted by : 16/4/08 20:53
: 16/4/08 20:53
BG Botting is out there. I see it mostly in AV, though I see a few in AB. If they are in EotS or WSG they are good enough to not be easily spotted.
BG grinding CAN get boring, no doubt. But there are so many things to do in this game, if one aspect gets boring you should be able to find something else to do.
I went from "PvE 5 mans only" to "run dailies and get cool mounts" to "I run BGs as often as possible" to "level another character" (who is now trying to run 5 mans).
BG grinding CAN get boring, no doubt. But there are so many things to do in this game, if one aspect gets boring you should be able to find something else to do.
I went from "PvE 5 mans only" to "run dailies and get cool mounts" to "I run BGs as often as possible" to "level another character" (who is now trying to run 5 mans).
... and there's another reason to not make a game so gear dependant. If there was no or at least very very small differences between tier gear then there wouldn't be much point in botting it and people could just play it for fun. At least that's my view.
A staggering number of players simply like showing off their gear. it's retarded, I know.
-= # # =
I suport your opinion.
~Uncle Sy
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Not to knock this comment regarding PvPers but anyone who PvPs/Arenas above the 1800 mark knows good and well how to tell the BG botters. If I see someone with almost all Gladiator gear I LOL inside knowing they usually still suck and had to have glided up. It takes over 300 hours played on a fast queue server to get a good chunk of gladiator gear. No one in their right mind does that straight. Most of these toons just hit 70 and you can watch over the course of a couple of weeks them always being right outside the AV battle master and a new piece of gear everyday since they never log.
To be honest even the weapon at 1850 is becoming laughable. We all have a good 2v2 or 3v3 system to get someone to 1850 unless they are in total greens. So unless you have your shoulders or upon inspection you have a team above 2K you are nothing to the hardcore. It would be like a PvE player in full BT going "OMG he has all purple he must be l33t" even though they all came from Kara...
-= # # =
I suport your opinion.
~Uncle Sy
-----------------------------------------
Not to knock this comment regarding PvPers but anyone who PvPs/Arenas above the 1800 mark knows good and well how to tell the BG botters. If I see someone with almost all Gladiator gear I LOL inside knowing they usually still suck and had to have glided up. It takes over 300 hours played on a fast queue server to get a good chunk of gladiator gear. No one in their right mind does that straight. Most of these toons just hit 70 and you can watch over the course of a couple of weeks them always being right outside the AV battle master and a new piece of gear everyday since they never log.
To be honest even the weapon at 1850 is becoming laughable. We all have a good 2v2 or 3v3 system to get someone to 1850 unless they are in total greens. So unless you have your shoulders or upon inspection you have a team above 2K you are nothing to the hardcore. It would be like a PvE player in full BT going "OMG he has all purple he must be l33t" even though they all came from Kara...
# posted by : 16/4/08 21:13
: 16/4/08 21:13
... and there's another reason to not make a game so gear dependant. If there was no or at least very very small differences between tier gear then there wouldn't be much point in botting it and people could just play it for fun. At least that's my view.
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It is called Guild Wars or City Of Heroes - but CoH died a nice death because why... you never got anything else that made you "cool". If human nature was to just survive then we would all still just be hunter gathers. The truth is people want to get ahead. Unfortunate here in America we are taught that "Getting Ahead" = he with the most toys / "power. This translates all the way down to gaming whether it be RL sports or online gaming in MMORPGS / FPS. There is a reason why EQ took the gaming world by storm when it first came out. Those who had "no other option" in RL could make a name for themselves in environment that they COULD control.
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It is called Guild Wars or City Of Heroes - but CoH died a nice death because why... you never got anything else that made you "cool". If human nature was to just survive then we would all still just be hunter gathers. The truth is people want to get ahead. Unfortunate here in America we are taught that "Getting Ahead" = he with the most toys / "power. This translates all the way down to gaming whether it be RL sports or online gaming in MMORPGS / FPS. There is a reason why EQ took the gaming world by storm when it first came out. Those who had "no other option" in RL could make a name for themselves in environment that they COULD control.
# posted by : 16/4/08 21:20
: 16/4/08 21:20
Are you guys seriously this stupid? There are many reasons to BG bot.
I missed where anyone said that botters don’t have any reason to bot BGs? I think the rewards from unattended play in BGs are pretty obvious. In fact, BGs are the one place in WoW where players can actually be rewarded for contributing little to no effort.
AFKers (who don’t bot) are exactly the same as botters in that they reap rewards without actually playing and the also participate in unattended play. I wrote an article in my blog a while back where I did a find/replace on a comment posted by an AFKer and replaced the words AFK and Honor with Bot and Gold. Not surprisingly, the underlying motivation is the exact same and it’s no wonder that AFKers can and do graduate to BG botters.
In fact, if you bot to level 70 then the logical “next step” is to bot the BGs for the gear. I think most readers of this blog would agree that the problem is in a design and reward system that encourages players who don’t enjoy the battlegrounds to play them for the rewards.
I missed where anyone said that botters don’t have any reason to bot BGs? I think the rewards from unattended play in BGs are pretty obvious. In fact, BGs are the one place in WoW where players can actually be rewarded for contributing little to no effort.
AFKers (who don’t bot) are exactly the same as botters in that they reap rewards without actually playing and the also participate in unattended play. I wrote an article in my blog a while back where I did a find/replace on a comment posted by an AFKer and replaced the words AFK and Honor with Bot and Gold. Not surprisingly, the underlying motivation is the exact same and it’s no wonder that AFKers can and do graduate to BG botters.
In fact, if you bot to level 70 then the logical “next step” is to bot the BGs for the gear. I think most readers of this blog would agree that the problem is in a design and reward system that encourages players who don’t enjoy the battlegrounds to play them for the rewards.
I see people do this a lot. I'll be at a flag fighting those rebel alliance scum and some cat druid will be just walking back and forth. I usually call them out in chat.
The basic problem is that you are rewarded for losing. In AV this used to be even worse since winning only gave you 600 more honor. The only way to really stop it is to give absolutely nothing for losing, then people will fight to win. It won't make people play better but it will stop bots. Of course, that will kill any casual pvp as well as make it not very fun (or turn the BGs into arenas) so.. that probably won't happen.
I think I've been reported by that turing test thing, since I'm a priest sometimes I'll stand there buffing/healing, like at the beginning of AV. I've been reported for doing nothing because I was buffing or healing, of course it goes away once someone I heal goes into combat.
The basic problem is that you are rewarded for losing. In AV this used to be even worse since winning only gave you 600 more honor. The only way to really stop it is to give absolutely nothing for losing, then people will fight to win. It won't make people play better but it will stop bots. Of course, that will kill any casual pvp as well as make it not very fun (or turn the BGs into arenas) so.. that probably won't happen.
I think I've been reported by that turing test thing, since I'm a priest sometimes I'll stand there buffing/healing, like at the beginning of AV. I've been reported for doing nothing because I was buffing or healing, of course it goes away once someone I heal goes into combat.
"I think most readers of this blog would agree that the problem is in a design and reward system that encourages players who don’t enjoy the battlegrounds to play them for the rewards."
I think the main problem is a reward system that is based on hours played instead of skill. The lack of gear matching also makes getting a reasonable rating annoying since there are so many points sellers out there. In season 2 you could make a run up to 1850 or 2k without full gear. Nowadays EVERYONE has 4/5 vengeful and full vindicators. Trying to punch through that in fresh 70 blues is just not likely.
Also you guys are right. Basically anyone in full BG purples botted or AFK'd it.
Also I think he asked if you guys were seriously stupid because he was talking about the people talking about wanting to brag about gear. Who in their right mind would brag about season 1?
I think the main problem is a reward system that is based on hours played instead of skill. The lack of gear matching also makes getting a reasonable rating annoying since there are so many points sellers out there. In season 2 you could make a run up to 1850 or 2k without full gear. Nowadays EVERYONE has 4/5 vengeful and full vindicators. Trying to punch through that in fresh 70 blues is just not likely.
Also you guys are right. Basically anyone in full BG purples botted or AFK'd it.
Also I think he asked if you guys were seriously stupid because he was talking about the people talking about wanting to brag about gear. Who in their right mind would brag about season 1?
# posted by : 16/4/08 21:43
: 16/4/08 21:43
"The basic problem is that you are rewarded for losing."
No. If you took away honor for losing you would only punish the casuals who actually play the game. Botters would just notice a downturn in their Honor per hour. Which would mean they would need to queue up several more days to welfare themselves out entirely. What do they care as long as they aren't being banned? The bot can play 24/7. Human beings can't. The only viable options I see are improving detection and banning them all or taking away the motivation entirely. No more honor gear. Gear matching and ratings based gear only.
I don't see anything else getting rid of the botting problem.
No. If you took away honor for losing you would only punish the casuals who actually play the game. Botters would just notice a downturn in their Honor per hour. Which would mean they would need to queue up several more days to welfare themselves out entirely. What do they care as long as they aren't being banned? The bot can play 24/7. Human beings can't. The only viable options I see are improving detection and banning them all or taking away the motivation entirely. No more honor gear. Gear matching and ratings based gear only.
I don't see anything else getting rid of the botting problem.
# posted by : 16/4/08 21:54
: 16/4/08 21:54
while it makes me sick in my stomach that people do this, I understand why they do it.. So they can play wow sometimes and play something else or watch something else at the same time. In fact pvp botting has been around since the first MUD probably. Anyways detecting stupid bots is easy, and detecting smart bots is also easy because their thinking/reaction times are much faster than humans. (By an order of magnitude or more) Get them based on this.
There are alternative methods of obtaining pvp gear now. Sunwell Isle allows you to buy S2 gear for badges or trade in T4/5/6 tokens for season 1/2 arena gear. You can buy blue pvp gear at honored reputation from various instance vendors. It isn't that big a deal if you want to get started. People just honor bot because it's easy and they are lazy. They risk account action, but that's the choice they make.
--Rawr
--Rawr
# posted by : 16/4/08 22:17
: 16/4/08 22:17
Anyways detecting stupid bots is easy, and detecting smart bots is also easy because their thinking/reaction times are much faster than humans. (By an order of magnitude or more) Get them based on this.
As I said, the current trend is to mimic human players. A smart bot can do things flawlessly over and over. A smarter bot behaves more like a human and has random actions and timings. Humans don’t do things perfectly every single time. A smart bot writer doesn’t let his bot perform the same exact way every time either. As Blizzard implements more server side detection, you will see more bot writers take this approach to avoid creating detectable behaviorial patterns.
The single easiest bot test? Target them and then mount up and stand on them. Repeatedly. 99.9% of human controlled players will move and/or Target you. If it doesn’t happen, then the odds are good they are botting. This is really more of a same faction test. Opposite faction test would be to attempt to kite them up or down a cliff or some other very difficult terrain that is difficult to path. Although a smart author would pin his toon to a spot once he entered combat and not allow movement beyond a certain range.
If you suspect someone of botting, report them. The GM who gets it will likely not be the one who takes action, but will escalate it for investigation. Most bans result from player reports and take a while to investigate. Bans are very rarely instant and it can take several weeks for them to ban. Part of this is to obfuscate the method of detecting the bots. I also wouldn’t gloat that you just reported them as tempting as it might be to do it. All you do is alert them to not bot while they are likely being investigated.
As I said, the current trend is to mimic human players. A smart bot can do things flawlessly over and over. A smarter bot behaves more like a human and has random actions and timings. Humans don’t do things perfectly every single time. A smart bot writer doesn’t let his bot perform the same exact way every time either. As Blizzard implements more server side detection, you will see more bot writers take this approach to avoid creating detectable behaviorial patterns.
The single easiest bot test? Target them and then mount up and stand on them. Repeatedly. 99.9% of human controlled players will move and/or Target you. If it doesn’t happen, then the odds are good they are botting. This is really more of a same faction test. Opposite faction test would be to attempt to kite them up or down a cliff or some other very difficult terrain that is difficult to path. Although a smart author would pin his toon to a spot once he entered combat and not allow movement beyond a certain range.
If you suspect someone of botting, report them. The GM who gets it will likely not be the one who takes action, but will escalate it for investigation. Most bans result from player reports and take a while to investigate. Bans are very rarely instant and it can take several weeks for them to ban. Part of this is to obfuscate the method of detecting the bots. I also wouldn’t gloat that you just reported them as tempting as it might be to do it. All you do is alert them to not bot while they are likely being investigated.
sid is right. I've seen several bots I've reported just not ever log on again after a few weeks of being reported.
But this has been going on for at least 2 years probably longer.
Its nothing new.
But this has been going on for at least 2 years probably longer.
Its nothing new.
It is called Guild Wars or City Of Heroes - but CoH died a nice death
It's funny. Here I was thinking that CoH was alive and kicking. Sure not with numbers rivaling WoW's but still doing OK. I guess I must have been dreaming. ;)
Seriously though, CoH's problem wasn't that there were too small differences in upgrades. For me at least it was the repetiveness. The first 20-25 levels or so are great, but after that it gets too repetitive. Sure there's PvP there now too but I just didn't like it in that game. The little I saw of it was just hit and run, hit and run. Travel powers are cool, but it doesn't work mixed with PvP.
It's funny. Here I was thinking that CoH was alive and kicking. Sure not with numbers rivaling WoW's but still doing OK. I guess I must have been dreaming. ;)
Seriously though, CoH's problem wasn't that there were too small differences in upgrades. For me at least it was the repetiveness. The first 20-25 levels or so are great, but after that it gets too repetitive. Sure there's PvP there now too but I just didn't like it in that game. The little I saw of it was just hit and run, hit and run. Travel powers are cool, but it doesn't work mixed with PvP.
the point being though, that you CAN'T play arena without a full starter set of gear.
you'll get shit on over and over by people in full s3, and there will. never. be. anything. you. can. do. about. it.
after 3-5 months of losing every game and rebuying 1500 ranked 5v5 rosters over and over, you might have enough gear to actually stand a chance to live long enough to kill someone. This is even assuming you find 4 other jackasses that hate themselves enough to join you on your journey. Stuff like the vindicators set requires playing AV over and over (and over) as well, which is about as fun as slamming your dick in a car door repeatedly. don't even get me started on AB, which is required for the marks to redeem for the belt etc... this is all so you can PLAY ARENA. wtf AV and AB have to do with arena at all is beyond me.
so the tournament realm gets free geared level 70s, but we can't have them on live? i can't run arena with my friends unless we ALL shell out 20 bucks to play on some random server located on the moon? wtf is that?
you'll get shit on over and over by people in full s3, and there will. never. be. anything. you. can. do. about. it.
after 3-5 months of losing every game and rebuying 1500 ranked 5v5 rosters over and over, you might have enough gear to actually stand a chance to live long enough to kill someone. This is even assuming you find 4 other jackasses that hate themselves enough to join you on your journey. Stuff like the vindicators set requires playing AV over and over (and over) as well, which is about as fun as slamming your dick in a car door repeatedly. don't even get me started on AB, which is required for the marks to redeem for the belt etc... this is all so you can PLAY ARENA. wtf AV and AB have to do with arena at all is beyond me.
so the tournament realm gets free geared level 70s, but we can't have them on live? i can't run arena with my friends unless we ALL shell out 20 bucks to play on some random server located on the moon? wtf is that?
The answer to the final question is really what Richard Bartle has been known to say about the Heroes Journey.
Something along the lines of
- its a lot of work and in the end you find yourself.
Something along the lines of
- its a lot of work and in the end you find yourself.
# posted by : 17/4/08 09:37
: 17/4/08 09:37
I just can't understand people whining about stuff required to start playing in arenas. Seriously.
There is some kind of fallacy that consists in saying that low-rank arena is bad, so bad that you want to be out of it as fast as possible.
What. The. Fuck ?
You can enter arenas stuffed in greens. You face will be pwned harder than it's ever been, you'll lose games like there's no tomorrow, but at a point, you'll meet people with similar stuff and similar skills. And you'll be able to enjoy that while starting to collect points and learn arena mechanics.
Plus you can play battlegrounds in parallel. And why don't you play battlegrounds with your arena mates ? That's a bit of cooperation that will be profitable to you.
I reactivated my account in december, took quite a time to reach level cap, and never really had to grind battlegrounds. I play them when I want to, I grab bonuses from dailies. With crafts (thanks to boe primal nethers), blue reputation pvp gear, bits of S1/other pvp honor epics, my warrior has around 12khp and 230 resilience. And believe me, that's enough to play around a 1500 ranking in arenas while really enjoying it. And I didn't wait to have all that stuff to start : I still had greens when I first entered an arena.
The same problem happens over and over again : most players have no patience. They want it all and they want it now, with no effort if possible. That's what gold selling, power-levelling and spending crazy amounts of gold at the auction house are all about. World of Warcraft brought a lot of players that don't have a clue about the fact that MMORPG are rewarding over time, and crave for instant gratification. I call that epic fail in understanding that game. People that justify botting this way just deserve to be banned for good and play Call of Duty or The Sims instead.
There is some kind of fallacy that consists in saying that low-rank arena is bad, so bad that you want to be out of it as fast as possible.
What. The. Fuck ?
You can enter arenas stuffed in greens. You face will be pwned harder than it's ever been, you'll lose games like there's no tomorrow, but at a point, you'll meet people with similar stuff and similar skills. And you'll be able to enjoy that while starting to collect points and learn arena mechanics.
Plus you can play battlegrounds in parallel. And why don't you play battlegrounds with your arena mates ? That's a bit of cooperation that will be profitable to you.
I reactivated my account in december, took quite a time to reach level cap, and never really had to grind battlegrounds. I play them when I want to, I grab bonuses from dailies. With crafts (thanks to boe primal nethers), blue reputation pvp gear, bits of S1/other pvp honor epics, my warrior has around 12khp and 230 resilience. And believe me, that's enough to play around a 1500 ranking in arenas while really enjoying it. And I didn't wait to have all that stuff to start : I still had greens when I first entered an arena.
The same problem happens over and over again : most players have no patience. They want it all and they want it now, with no effort if possible. That's what gold selling, power-levelling and spending crazy amounts of gold at the auction house are all about. World of Warcraft brought a lot of players that don't have a clue about the fact that MMORPG are rewarding over time, and crave for instant gratification. I call that epic fail in understanding that game. People that justify botting this way just deserve to be banned for good and play Call of Duty or The Sims instead.
# posted by : 17/4/08 13:00
: 17/4/08 13:00
you can enter arenas stuffed in greens. You face will be pwned harder than it's ever been, you'll lose games like there's no tomorrow, but at a point, you'll meet people with similar stuff and similar skills.
Getting beat over and over, without being able to do anything about it, is no fun for just about everybody, and it makes sense that those people will want to get enough of an advantage to be able to compete, provided their skills are good enough.
Compare to other forms of "PvP" games (strategy, FPS, guild wars, etc.), which have some form of match making, plus the same power of "gear" for the different competitors, at least means that people will have a higher chance of matching up with someone of about the same skill level, and a person can advance as they learn tactics, get better reflexes, etc., instead of just having ot loose over and over until they get the gear.
World of Warcraft brought a lot of players that don't have a clue about the fact that MMORPG are rewarding over time, and crave for instant gratification.
Causing people to loose over and over in order to be able to get competetive, not because of skill which players can improve and do something about, but because of equipment, which players cannot do something about due to the way the equipment system works, generally will not be fun for just about everyone, as described above.
Similarly, for PvE, not being able to see an instance, zone, or other piece of the game because i don't have enough time in the day is different than not being able to see one because I have to level up and get gear for it. These sort s of artificial limitations, that people can't do anything about, will tend to be unfun and quite annoying for most kinds of people
Getting beat over and over, without being able to do anything about it, is no fun for just about everybody, and it makes sense that those people will want to get enough of an advantage to be able to compete, provided their skills are good enough.
Compare to other forms of "PvP" games (strategy, FPS, guild wars, etc.), which have some form of match making, plus the same power of "gear" for the different competitors, at least means that people will have a higher chance of matching up with someone of about the same skill level, and a person can advance as they learn tactics, get better reflexes, etc., instead of just having ot loose over and over until they get the gear.
World of Warcraft brought a lot of players that don't have a clue about the fact that MMORPG are rewarding over time, and crave for instant gratification.
Causing people to loose over and over in order to be able to get competetive, not because of skill which players can improve and do something about, but because of equipment, which players cannot do something about due to the way the equipment system works, generally will not be fun for just about everyone, as described above.
Similarly, for PvE, not being able to see an instance, zone, or other piece of the game because i don't have enough time in the day is different than not being able to see one because I have to level up and get gear for it. These sort s of artificial limitations, that people can't do anything about, will tend to be unfun and quite annoying for most kinds of people
ok altherac the problem is you put people in a competitive environment with people of all skill and gear ranges lumped into one big mess and expect people to enjoy it.
If you took all baseball players from t-ball to the pro's and made them all play together you'd get the same thing.
Sure a few of the kiddies would stick with it because it was cool to lose to those pro players everyone else would scream it was unfair. And it is.
I don't mind wiping on PVE content and coming back and trying it again and again because thats what its for. But PVP where you have to lose for 5 months to get the gear to even have a chance at competing is not fun. As I told my best friend who If I want that kind of PVP i'll just play halo. Then the only reason I lose is I suck. Not that I'm 18 months behind the proffessional players who just come to enjoy my tears.
I wouldn't care at all about PVP if it werent screwing up the PVE game so much because of the inane attempt to balance 1v1, 2v2, 3v3 and 5 v5 in a game with classes that were designed around PVE from the beginning. The only way to balance wow pvp is to remove every class but rogues and just turn everyone lose
If you took all baseball players from t-ball to the pro's and made them all play together you'd get the same thing.
Sure a few of the kiddies would stick with it because it was cool to lose to those pro players everyone else would scream it was unfair. And it is.
I don't mind wiping on PVE content and coming back and trying it again and again because thats what its for. But PVP where you have to lose for 5 months to get the gear to even have a chance at competing is not fun. As I told my best friend who If I want that kind of PVP i'll just play halo. Then the only reason I lose is I suck. Not that I'm 18 months behind the proffessional players who just come to enjoy my tears.
I wouldn't care at all about PVP if it werent screwing up the PVE game so much because of the inane attempt to balance 1v1, 2v2, 3v3 and 5 v5 in a game with classes that were designed around PVE from the beginning. The only way to balance wow pvp is to remove every class but rogues and just turn everyone lose
I can see where the botting's coming from and it's really a problem with game design. Let me give you an example.
A few years ago Star Ocean 3 for the PS2 was released. It was one of those RPG games that true to the genre, had a stereotypical gambling/gaming town. In particular, there were races you had to bet on in order to get an item that made it possible for you to make stronger weapons/armor.
The kicker here is that the betting odds were so even you could just press the same button over and over again for hours and you would eventually get enough points for the item you needed. Naturally this repetition was so boring that most people used a machine to press the button for you (turbo controller, oddball contraption, etc). It sucked, but was more or less absolutely necessary to progress in the game.
Whenever I think about MMO grinding I can't help but remember that little grind from so long ago. At that point I start wondering how much each person values their time. Is the long window of repetition worth the small reward? I realize this is the nature and the very core of the MMO genre but I can't help but feel there's something better that could be done.
A few years ago Star Ocean 3 for the PS2 was released. It was one of those RPG games that true to the genre, had a stereotypical gambling/gaming town. In particular, there were races you had to bet on in order to get an item that made it possible for you to make stronger weapons/armor.
The kicker here is that the betting odds were so even you could just press the same button over and over again for hours and you would eventually get enough points for the item you needed. Naturally this repetition was so boring that most people used a machine to press the button for you (turbo controller, oddball contraption, etc). It sucked, but was more or less absolutely necessary to progress in the game.
Whenever I think about MMO grinding I can't help but remember that little grind from so long ago. At that point I start wondering how much each person values their time. Is the long window of repetition worth the small reward? I realize this is the nature and the very core of the MMO genre but I can't help but feel there's something better that could be done.
the main problem is that there *IS* a fun aspect of WoW, unfortunately it's buried under 800 pounds of crap. obviously, this makes sense from blizzard's perspective.
why sell bottled milk, when you can just rent out a cow, and make people line up for the hassle of milking it themselves? it doesn't make any sense, but there's a line wrapped around the block.
Now imagine a game like Super Mario Galaxy. It's fun! You run and jump and swim! Whee!
Now imagine that for every hour of the fun part, you needed to spend 4 hours just sitting on the couch swirling the wiimote around in a circle. No challenge involved, no skill required... just big sweeping repetitions until your arm fell off. Would people who tied the wiimote to the ceiling fan be botting? why, yes, they would. but would you judge them harshly for it? you wouldn't need to, actually, because no one would buy the game in the first place. it would receive dismal scores across the board for trash gameplay concepts, but that's eventually what happens in wow after you reach a certain plateau (or decide to switch sides of the game from PvX to PvY).
there is fun to be found in running dungeons. there is fun to be found (sometimes) in close BG matches. but the LEVEL OF REPETITION required for progression borders on ridiculous. not even progression, just maintaining equilibrium. If i only logged in to run 25 mans, then logged out after the fun part was over for the night, i would be very broke, very fast. flasks don't spawn in my bags magically. So by most people's justifications, I just don't "deserve" to raid? I'm paying the same amount of dollars per month, why should I not be entitled to see "teh dragunz"?
why sell bottled milk, when you can just rent out a cow, and make people line up for the hassle of milking it themselves? it doesn't make any sense, but there's a line wrapped around the block.
Now imagine a game like Super Mario Galaxy. It's fun! You run and jump and swim! Whee!
Now imagine that for every hour of the fun part, you needed to spend 4 hours just sitting on the couch swirling the wiimote around in a circle. No challenge involved, no skill required... just big sweeping repetitions until your arm fell off. Would people who tied the wiimote to the ceiling fan be botting? why, yes, they would. but would you judge them harshly for it? you wouldn't need to, actually, because no one would buy the game in the first place. it would receive dismal scores across the board for trash gameplay concepts, but that's eventually what happens in wow after you reach a certain plateau (or decide to switch sides of the game from PvX to PvY).
there is fun to be found in running dungeons. there is fun to be found (sometimes) in close BG matches. but the LEVEL OF REPETITION required for progression borders on ridiculous. not even progression, just maintaining equilibrium. If i only logged in to run 25 mans, then logged out after the fun part was over for the night, i would be very broke, very fast. flasks don't spawn in my bags magically. So by most people's justifications, I just don't "deserve" to raid? I'm paying the same amount of dollars per month, why should I not be entitled to see "teh dragunz"?
I think that "level of repetition" is a major problem in the WoW endgame. It seems to have begun with the surprising tolerance of players in WoW 1.0 to a second-job raid grind. Then it was applied to PvP, first as an insane ranking system, and reincarnated in 2.0 as an endless PvP grind of 4 BGs and 3 Arenas for 15 months and counting. Finally, it was even applied to casuals, who were given daily quests and even more daily quests to repeat ad nauseum.
The stuff of heroes to be sure. Why kill a powerful dragon or evil demon when you can get rich as a mercenary endlessly mowing down weaklings?
I suppose the endgame is successful in that it succeeds in retaining a just enough of a glimmer of the fun leveling game to be tolerable, with the hope that the next patch or next expansion will regain that 'first time' feel.
Unfortunately, patch 2.4 was so blatant that the 'new' non-raid content could be experienced over a weekend. And a blowout expansion-end epic gear chase is supposed to bridge us over until WotLK.
What's next?
Weekly quests in patch 2.4a will have my heroic toon mow the yard and weed the garden for 10g and 250 rep, and a chance at either a mini-lawnmower pet or l33t epix?
The stuff of heroes to be sure. Why kill a powerful dragon or evil demon when you can get rich as a mercenary endlessly mowing down weaklings?
I suppose the endgame is successful in that it succeeds in retaining a just enough of a glimmer of the fun leveling game to be tolerable, with the hope that the next patch or next expansion will regain that 'first time' feel.
Unfortunately, patch 2.4 was so blatant that the 'new' non-raid content could be experienced over a weekend. And a blowout expansion-end epic gear chase is supposed to bridge us over until WotLK.
What's next?
Weekly quests in patch 2.4a will have my heroic toon mow the yard and weed the garden for 10g and 250 rep, and a chance at either a mini-lawnmower pet or l33t epix?
# posted by : 18/4/08 14:49
: 18/4/08 14:49
Honestly the more I've let this post and the thread percolate in my brain, the more I keep coming back to the sad sad point that in the current state of WOW, the botters may be the most sensible ones out there. Just bypassing the boring model that has developed and getting to the fun. If they get caught what do they lose? not much. just buy another account and do it again. It makes me wonder if instead of being ethical I'm just being stupid.
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