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Monday, April 14, 2008
What can be done to save grouping in WoW?
My mage dinged 70 this weekend, my third level 70 character. At the level cap he can only improve further by getting better gear, but more importantly I want him to get better enchanting recipes. It turns out that these either drop in dungeons, or are received as reputation awards, for which you have to run dungeons. So I need groups, and lots of them. So most of this weekend I spent hanging out in probably the most depressing place there is in WoW: the looking for group chat channel. And the result: I got one group together, and that one disbanded after the first boss of the dungeon. And the reason I couldn't get a group was that there were no healers nor tanks to be found.
The looking for group chat had something tragicomic about him: for hours and hours every single request on that channel was for either a tank, a healer, or both. I had to laugh at one request where somebody tried to organize a pickup raid to Karazhan. He already had 6 dps people for it, and shouted for 1 main tank and 3 healers for an hour before he gave up. Seems that if I ever want to group again, I have to play my tank or healer, the chances of finding a group with my mage are slim, which means he can't get better enchanting recipes before the expansion comes out. :(
Fact is that with every group and raid needing tanks and healers, it is the number of tanks and healers that becomes the limiting factor in how many groups can be created in total. When I log on my priest or warrior, I get lots of tells asking me to group, more than I could possibly do. When I play my mage, there is no group to be found. You simply need 20% tanks and 20% healers of the grouping part of the population, and in reality there are far less than that. And worse: the number of tanks and healers is declining. Even I made a mage so I could finally solo decently fast. Most warriors are either raid tanks and don't need to go to normal dungeons any more, or they have given up on tanking and gone arms or fury. And it isn't any better with the healing classes, even if you get a priest, paladin, shaman or druid in your group, they'll all tell you they aren't spec'd for healing. Even Rohan, WoW's most famous paladin and author of the Blessing of Kings blog did respec to retribution. Nobody wants to tank or heal any more.
I blame bad game design. World of Warcraft is a game of many aspects: group PvE, solo PvE, PvP. DPS classes can get one set of gear and one talent build and be reasonably good in ALL parts of the game. But if a healing class or tanking class gets the gear and talent build necessary for effecting healing or tanking, he gimps himself for solo PvE and PvP. I know myself how immensely frustrating that can be. Plus you are under a lot of peer pressure to help all the dps people in your guild, who all need you to form groups. It is a lot easier to opt out, and either respec or play a dps alt. But the more people opt out of the tanking and healing role, the less groups can form in total, and the more the remaining tanks and healers come under pressure. It's a vicious cycle, that destroys one of the most fun multiplayer aspects of this MMORPG, grouping. What could be done to save grouping in WoW?
One idea is to lower requirements for groups. If a shadow priest or enhancement shaman would still heal good enough to keep the group alive, even if the "tank" is a fury warrior, the possible pool of tanks and healer becomes larger, and more groups can form. But if Blizzard wants to keep high requirements of specialization for tanks and healers, another idea would be to make tanking and healing more attractive, by making tanks and healers more effective in solo PvE and PvP. A third idea would be to make switching roles easier, so a warrior could for example have two alternative talent builds and sets of gear, with an easy and free way to switch between them.
But maybe there are other ideas. How would you solve the tank and healer shortage in World of Warcraft, so that all the other players can finally find a group?
- posted by Tobold @ 11:50 AM Permanent Link
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It would seem that the BOK blog guy respecced Holy yesterday; however i do see your point ^^.
What i would really like to see myself is guilds as guilds having a more active role in pvp.
Now i realize it is not quite pve content; however, i would really like to see the day that a guild is looking for well geared pvpers for something more meaningful than rolling pugs.
Pvp is very much a solo thing right now as it is ^^.
What i would really like to see myself is guilds as guilds having a more active role in pvp.
Now i realize it is not quite pve content; however, i would really like to see the day that a guild is looking for well geared pvpers for something more meaningful than rolling pugs.
Pvp is very much a solo thing right now as it is ^^.
# posted by 
: 14/4/08 12:37
: 14/4/08 12:37
I've always liked the duel spec idea, however, like you said, many no longer need the gear from there and that is the larger problem as if even if you can duel spec, they won't want to run a pug for gear that is obsolute for them.
I ran into this Mar 07 when I was trying to run all the dungeons at 70 and I finally got tired of looking for groups. Many were running but they were specializing the group to increase succes and a rogue didnt' bring what they wanted most of the time so I got fed up with it and with WoWs time sinks they offered me and retired.
I was in the AoC tech test yesterday and while it was definately a tech test, I did enjoy what I saw. Hopefully it will keep me entertained until WAR and then I'll see if I'm still enjoying it. If not, WAR and then same thinking until WotLK which I already know I'll only enjoy for about 3 months.
Anything due out in 2009? My longest time in one MMOG is 8 months so I always have to keep an eye on the Horizon (horrible game btw, in beta and the dragon idea while neat, worked terribly)
I ran into this Mar 07 when I was trying to run all the dungeons at 70 and I finally got tired of looking for groups. Many were running but they were specializing the group to increase succes and a rogue didnt' bring what they wanted most of the time so I got fed up with it and with WoWs time sinks they offered me and retired.
I was in the AoC tech test yesterday and while it was definately a tech test, I did enjoy what I saw. Hopefully it will keep me entertained until WAR and then I'll see if I'm still enjoying it. If not, WAR and then same thinking until WotLK which I already know I'll only enjoy for about 3 months.
Anything due out in 2009? My longest time in one MMOG is 8 months so I always have to keep an eye on the Horizon (horrible game btw, in beta and the dragon idea while neat, worked terribly)
# posted by : 14/4/08 13:07
: 14/4/08 13:07
I seem to get a whisper every single day (and at least twice on weekenddays) for a run to a Tempest Keep instance when I'm on my druid, most of the time it doesn't matter what spec I am as the group needs both a healer and a tank. The problem is that I'm already exalted with the Tempest Keep dudes and there's literally zero for me to gain by doing TK.
On the other hand I reached exalted with Shattered Sun this weekend. Only at the very end did I manage to get a group for the normal version of the new instance, every other group I tried to get running failed due to a lack of tanks.
I've made it a habit to put every single competent tank I've ever run an instance with in my friends list, unfortunately this means the list is rather small as most "tanks" are really cat-druids or arms warriors that have a token 3 pieces of tanking gear.
A while ago Blizzard talked about integrating some kind of "outfitter" system, whereby you wouldn't have to keep some bags full of differing gear (I am resto specced, but also have a tanking set and a kitten set and some moonkin gear). Together with some resist gear necklaces/rings/cloaks etc I can fill 3 18 slot bags and that's without the healing gear I've got equipped!
I'm hoping that WotLK brings this enhancement. I also hope that Blizzard will realize that talent specs are very nice but that they have become too problematic and they need to be rethought.
Either give people 2 different talentspecs they can easily switch between or eliminate the respec cost altogether and put the trainers in places people actually visit(!!!!) on a regular basis. This means next to the bank, not in some far away corner of an old-world city no one ever visits much.
On the other hand I reached exalted with Shattered Sun this weekend. Only at the very end did I manage to get a group for the normal version of the new instance, every other group I tried to get running failed due to a lack of tanks.
I've made it a habit to put every single competent tank I've ever run an instance with in my friends list, unfortunately this means the list is rather small as most "tanks" are really cat-druids or arms warriors that have a token 3 pieces of tanking gear.
A while ago Blizzard talked about integrating some kind of "outfitter" system, whereby you wouldn't have to keep some bags full of differing gear (I am resto specced, but also have a tanking set and a kitten set and some moonkin gear). Together with some resist gear necklaces/rings/cloaks etc I can fill 3 18 slot bags and that's without the healing gear I've got equipped!
I'm hoping that WotLK brings this enhancement. I also hope that Blizzard will realize that talent specs are very nice but that they have become too problematic and they need to be rethought.
Either give people 2 different talentspecs they can easily switch between or eliminate the respec cost altogether and put the trainers in places people actually visit(!!!!) on a regular basis. This means next to the bank, not in some far away corner of an old-world city no one ever visits much.
# posted by : 14/4/08 13:21
: 14/4/08 13:21
I don't mind soloing with my holy paladin, I'm able to get by no problem. I don't as much damage as our guild's fire mage but I can take a much better beating. My main problem is getting to my healing gear when I need it. If they could put an ATM in all towns so I can at least gain access to the bank that would be great.
Our guild has the reverse problem, we are mostly healers and tankers and are short on DPS people. It hasn't been a problem yet ;-)
Our guild has the reverse problem, we are mostly healers and tankers and are short on DPS people. It hasn't been a problem yet ;-)
I know what I did. I rerolled a paladin, gathered a ret set, a holy set, a tanking set, a PvP Shockadin set and I do the dailys to fund any respeccs I might have to do.
I generally roll as Holy in PvP spell damage gear for solo work, then gear swap to my +heal set for instances or nip to the bank for the ret or tanking set I keep on standby.
Doesnt solve all of WoW grouping probs but it solved mine :)
I generally roll as Holy in PvP spell damage gear for solo work, then gear swap to my +heal set for instances or nip to the bank for the ret or tanking set I keep on standby.
Doesnt solve all of WoW grouping probs but it solved mine :)
# posted by : 14/4/08 13:45
: 14/4/08 13:45
They need to make choosing to be a Healer or Tank more attractive to people, that is very true.
I have said before that I think the tank/dps warrior roles need to be combined into one class (as in most Fantasy RPGs).
It reminds me of the D&D cartoon form years back, when the warrior used to run round with just a shield; effectively that is what most tanks are - warriors without effective weapons.
I've also said before that you could dispense with Healers altogether, and if not, seriously nerf the amount of healing that is required in the average instance.
Whn you play solo, you don't constantly need healing, so why is it in a group, that even 1 second of lag could result in a wipe for a 25 man raid?
If Blizzard want to maintain these 2 distinct classes, then they have to make them more attractive to players, there is no doubt about that.
Bribery works wonders:
They could reduce repair costs (ask any tank about the cost of repairs compared to the average cloth dps's costs).
Maybe make quest rewards for tanks/healers double those for dps eg 20 gold per daily completed instead of 10 gold; give them special mounts (twice as fast as other classes) or even free mounts.
How about a free profession?
Anything to make more people choose these classes.
As for my pugging this weekend, I managed to get a Shadow Labs group for the first time in ages, and picked up the Greatsword of Horrid Dreams. Shame none of the other 4 pieces of loot I was hoping for dropped.
LFG here I come!
I have said before that I think the tank/dps warrior roles need to be combined into one class (as in most Fantasy RPGs).
It reminds me of the D&D cartoon form years back, when the warrior used to run round with just a shield; effectively that is what most tanks are - warriors without effective weapons.
I've also said before that you could dispense with Healers altogether, and if not, seriously nerf the amount of healing that is required in the average instance.
Whn you play solo, you don't constantly need healing, so why is it in a group, that even 1 second of lag could result in a wipe for a 25 man raid?
If Blizzard want to maintain these 2 distinct classes, then they have to make them more attractive to players, there is no doubt about that.
Bribery works wonders:
They could reduce repair costs (ask any tank about the cost of repairs compared to the average cloth dps's costs).
Maybe make quest rewards for tanks/healers double those for dps eg 20 gold per daily completed instead of 10 gold; give them special mounts (twice as fast as other classes) or even free mounts.
How about a free profession?
Anything to make more people choose these classes.
As for my pugging this weekend, I managed to get a Shadow Labs group for the first time in ages, and picked up the Greatsword of Horrid Dreams. Shame none of the other 4 pieces of loot I was hoping for dropped.
LFG here I come!
# posted by : 14/4/08 13:55
: 14/4/08 13:55
Even if you allow to switch between to specs on the fly - wich some other upcoming game pretty much already offers - WoW still has too many boundaries. One being the item level system the other not being able to switch gear in combat. If you expect current DPS warriors/paladins to be valid tanks on their secondary spec, you haven't played WoW long enough. The game is too demanding for min-maxing, to allow unfocused tanks to succeed. If you allow them to be viable, focused tanks (focused meaning focusing on tank gear and learning tanking class basics) will rip your content apart. At this point in WoW i'd rather do not play an instance at all, than to try it with a subpar setup.
The game would need to switch their item level system to allow more class roles with one set of gear, like EQ did and still does. Just imagine the old EQ class epic quests in WoW. For every class you would need to come up with 3 totally different items and questlines to satisfy the playerbase. One more reason to not expect something like this in WoW.
It would need to lock up its math again. The game is too transparent. Nobody would cry about tanks making too much damage, if you're addons wouldn't spit out the numbers. If you can not design solo content for each class role seperatetly, you will need to give non-DPS classes more damage, or people will not play them. I played an healing paladin since BC launched up to 3 months ago. I now play a DPC-class. Trying to do the new dailies with the paladin just brings tears to my eyes. It's absolutetly ridiculous to see BT/SP geared tanks to perform much much slower at the daily grind than my much lower gear shaman. If you offer so much solo content you can not expect dependent classes to be a popular choice.
As what to learn from this for future WoW successors:
- your item design is just as important as your class design
- too much transparency is bad
- the more options you offer, the more critical min-maxing becomes and this leads to more and more new issues and work
- PvE-PvP balance will never work, welcome to 8 years ago
Let's look at where one DPS-warrior/paladin could perform viable right now:
- solo PvP
- group PvP
- solo PvE
- group PvE
- raid PvE
Now let's loot where a tank would perform well:
- group PvE
- raid PvE
If you want players to play more tanks, simply make them viable in all aspects of the game, and since this only works with adding more damage the choice is pretty clear. Tanks with more damage, eh? What class do they add soon? In the long run i think the idea of talents does fail. It creates more issues than it solves in the long run with tanks being the tip of the iceberg right now.
The game would need to switch their item level system to allow more class roles with one set of gear, like EQ did and still does. Just imagine the old EQ class epic quests in WoW. For every class you would need to come up with 3 totally different items and questlines to satisfy the playerbase. One more reason to not expect something like this in WoW.
It would need to lock up its math again. The game is too transparent. Nobody would cry about tanks making too much damage, if you're addons wouldn't spit out the numbers. If you can not design solo content for each class role seperatetly, you will need to give non-DPS classes more damage, or people will not play them. I played an healing paladin since BC launched up to 3 months ago. I now play a DPC-class. Trying to do the new dailies with the paladin just brings tears to my eyes. It's absolutetly ridiculous to see BT/SP geared tanks to perform much much slower at the daily grind than my much lower gear shaman. If you offer so much solo content you can not expect dependent classes to be a popular choice.
As what to learn from this for future WoW successors:
- your item design is just as important as your class design
- too much transparency is bad
- the more options you offer, the more critical min-maxing becomes and this leads to more and more new issues and work
- PvE-PvP balance will never work, welcome to 8 years ago
Let's look at where one DPS-warrior/paladin could perform viable right now:
- solo PvP
- group PvP
- solo PvE
- group PvE
- raid PvE
Now let's loot where a tank would perform well:
- group PvE
- raid PvE
If you want players to play more tanks, simply make them viable in all aspects of the game, and since this only works with adding more damage the choice is pretty clear. Tanks with more damage, eh? What class do they add soon? In the long run i think the idea of talents does fail. It creates more issues than it solves in the long run with tanks being the tip of the iceberg right now.
# posted by : 14/4/08 14:14
: 14/4/08 14:14
I play a warrior, specced for DPS and PVP. I completely agree with what you say, I'd go even further though.
It's not just a question of gear and spec (though that's a huge part of it), it's a question of role, and more than that, a question of prominence or profile within a group.
A main tank or a healer absolutely has to be on the ball in most of these dungeons in order to succeed. It's a role that brings a lot of attention if you are struggling. I am not particularly well geared for tanking, but I wouldn't mind taking a crack at it now or then. But I not only don't have the right gear or spec, I don't have the right experience either, and getting that experience is difficult. And as Blizzard continues to shake up the design of encounters away from the simple tank 'n spank model, it generally gets more difficult for tanks.
The problem is that the learning curve for me, as a non-specced or geared tank, is sufficient that I really don't feel like the aggravation. I have specced as a tank before, and in a good group it's a great role, but it can be a real pain in the balls when you're struggling and the blame game begins.
When people say 'LF Tank', what they really mean is 'LF well-geared and experienced tank who will aid my smooth progress on the content escalator'. Anything less and they start to bitch.
It's not just a question of gear and spec (though that's a huge part of it), it's a question of role, and more than that, a question of prominence or profile within a group.
A main tank or a healer absolutely has to be on the ball in most of these dungeons in order to succeed. It's a role that brings a lot of attention if you are struggling. I am not particularly well geared for tanking, but I wouldn't mind taking a crack at it now or then. But I not only don't have the right gear or spec, I don't have the right experience either, and getting that experience is difficult. And as Blizzard continues to shake up the design of encounters away from the simple tank 'n spank model, it generally gets more difficult for tanks.
The problem is that the learning curve for me, as a non-specced or geared tank, is sufficient that I really don't feel like the aggravation. I have specced as a tank before, and in a good group it's a great role, but it can be a real pain in the balls when you're struggling and the blame game begins.
When people say 'LF Tank', what they really mean is 'LF well-geared and experienced tank who will aid my smooth progress on the content escalator'. Anything less and they start to bitch.
"And the reason I couldn't get a group was that there were no healers nor tanks to be found."
"When I log on my priest or warrior, I get lots of tells asking me to group, more than I could possibly do."
It's not that there are no tanks or healers; it's that the tanks and healers have dps alts they want to play and group with, but in my experience the inverse isn't always true. You're right that most tanks/healers are focused on raiding, so people tend to park those toons for raid content once they don't need instance content. Every healer/tank I know has a dps alt, but not every dps player I know has a tank/healer alt (most have other dps alts). I realize this is a generalization, but it's true for me. Is it the same for you?
If you're hitting L70 now, it means that you're looking for groups with the alt crowd. After all, you have higher level (better geared) healer and tank you're not playing at that moment, right? And yet, isn't that the problem you're talking about?
"When I log on my priest or warrior, I get lots of tells asking me to group, more than I could possibly do."
It's not that there are no tanks or healers; it's that the tanks and healers have dps alts they want to play and group with, but in my experience the inverse isn't always true. You're right that most tanks/healers are focused on raiding, so people tend to park those toons for raid content once they don't need instance content. Every healer/tank I know has a dps alt, but not every dps player I know has a tank/healer alt (most have other dps alts). I realize this is a generalization, but it's true for me. Is it the same for you?
If you're hitting L70 now, it means that you're looking for groups with the alt crowd. After all, you have higher level (better geared) healer and tank you're not playing at that moment, right? And yet, isn't that the problem you're talking about?
# posted by : 14/4/08 14:49
: 14/4/08 14:49
Tobold, I'm guessing that your mage is too late.
Too many toons are already exalted in TBC factions and don't need any drops in them, or tired of the old TBC instances, or are grinding PvP or farming Kara or running dailies.
TBC is dying.
Too many toons are already exalted in TBC factions and don't need any drops in them, or tired of the old TBC instances, or are grinding PvP or farming Kara or running dailies.
TBC is dying.
# posted by : 14/4/08 15:30
: 14/4/08 15:30
very VERY simple solution tbh - remove respec costs. I am a fury warrior - and a pretty decent one at that. However I'm always being asked to tank. I have a full tanking set I always have with me, but my threat generation is a joke being full fury. If respecs were free I'd be all over that. Yes, I'm making more money with all the new dailies, but I don't want to blow my entire daily route going to prot then back to fury - it would make that entire hour a total waste. 100g is a ridiculous price to pay to play your character a little bit differently.
Since the current solo game is focused essentially on DPS, then any classes who are not that (i.e. tanks and healers) are obviously at a disadvantage.
Feral Druids, of course, have the best of both worlds... they can tank and they can dps with no respec and only minimal (well, minimal from the perspective of a Tree Druid, of course) gear changes. Granted, the druid population is still the smallest of all WoW classes, so that does not help a whole lot.
Since we healers (and tanks, too) are mostly locked out of the solo content, we specialize into instance play where we shine. However, this comes at a cost, since tanking and healing skills, due to the nature of instances, are on the whole more demanding than "blast the targets in order" that most dps need.
This takes a certain personality which, to be honest, is not one that is overly common in WoW. Thus, healers and tanks find social circles which makes our life easier and the payoff of our steep learning curve much higher. And since there seem to be many more idiot dpsers out there than good dpsers, we tend to stay in our social circle and not risk a bad group.
So... how do we fix?
Make Tanks and Healers do more effective dps in solo environment. Blizz tried this with +spell damage a fraction of +heal, but I still do better (though still lol) dps in kitty gear. The Death Knight in WotLK, which Blizz says was going to be a DPS/Tank Hybrid should be an interesting solution.
Make grouping (even small grouping) in non-instanced play more rewarding. As it stands, it is still more effective xp/hour and gold/hour to solo than group due to the XP/gold "sharing". You could bump the XP/gold drops while in a group to encourage the practice and increase the "effective dps" of a tank or healer without penalizing the dps.
Feral Druids, of course, have the best of both worlds... they can tank and they can dps with no respec and only minimal (well, minimal from the perspective of a Tree Druid, of course) gear changes. Granted, the druid population is still the smallest of all WoW classes, so that does not help a whole lot.
Since we healers (and tanks, too) are mostly locked out of the solo content, we specialize into instance play where we shine. However, this comes at a cost, since tanking and healing skills, due to the nature of instances, are on the whole more demanding than "blast the targets in order" that most dps need.
This takes a certain personality which, to be honest, is not one that is overly common in WoW. Thus, healers and tanks find social circles which makes our life easier and the payoff of our steep learning curve much higher. And since there seem to be many more idiot dpsers out there than good dpsers, we tend to stay in our social circle and not risk a bad group.
So... how do we fix?
Make Tanks and Healers do more effective dps in solo environment. Blizz tried this with +spell damage a fraction of +heal, but I still do better (though still lol) dps in kitty gear. The Death Knight in WotLK, which Blizz says was going to be a DPS/Tank Hybrid should be an interesting solution.
Make grouping (even small grouping) in non-instanced play more rewarding. As it stands, it is still more effective xp/hour and gold/hour to solo than group due to the XP/gold "sharing". You could bump the XP/gold drops while in a group to encourage the practice and increase the "effective dps" of a tank or healer without penalizing the dps.
I would have stayed protection with my warrior if it weren't for 2
things: Lack of farming power, and little to no AOE tanking options. I was sick of being a gimp without 9 other people standing with me, and even then, I was little more than a meat shield, and when DPS didn't perform, I had a higher repair bill than anyone else in the raid. One has to be Mother Theresa to keep up the warrior tank role.
WOWs grouping problem is and always will be the PVP/PVE cocktail they have going. More players would roll tanks if they offered the same cushy lifestyle as say a shadowpriest. Shadowpriests can solo, pvp, and raid without changing their spec; possibly the most versatile class in WOW, and until tanks can enjoy those perks, the shortage will continue.
I've stayed with WOW for the past 2years, had a good time, but now that time is over, and I have ended my subscription until WOTLK.
-Wolfgangdoom
things: Lack of farming power, and little to no AOE tanking options. I was sick of being a gimp without 9 other people standing with me, and even then, I was little more than a meat shield, and when DPS didn't perform, I had a higher repair bill than anyone else in the raid. One has to be Mother Theresa to keep up the warrior tank role.
WOWs grouping problem is and always will be the PVP/PVE cocktail they have going. More players would roll tanks if they offered the same cushy lifestyle as say a shadowpriest. Shadowpriests can solo, pvp, and raid without changing their spec; possibly the most versatile class in WOW, and until tanks can enjoy those perks, the shortage will continue.
I've stayed with WOW for the past 2years, had a good time, but now that time is over, and I have ended my subscription until WOTLK.
-Wolfgangdoom
# posted by : 14/4/08 16:00
: 14/4/08 16:00
Found a solution, i'm rolling a def war atm, it took me 2 min to find a group for uldaman this week-end.
In fact the only solution to all this is to make the instances soloable as the rest of the game. You can play solo from 1 to 70 so everyone is playing fast action classes. And then at 70, you need to group ! is it a solo or a group game ??? (ironic)
In fact the only solution to all this is to make the instances soloable as the rest of the game. You can play solo from 1 to 70 so everyone is playing fast action classes. And then at 70, you need to group ! is it a solo or a group game ??? (ironic)
# posted by : 14/4/08 16:13
: 14/4/08 16:13
I would attempt to turn every class into a hybrid.
Let's take my rogue for example. Back in the 60s rogues loved the Hand of Justice trinket, but it was in BRD. I ultimately wound up tanking the place while I farmed thanks to the dodge and parry mechanic.
I would turn rogues, hunters, and warlocks into tanks (dodge, pets, and large health pools respectfully). Maybe we can invent a mechanic for mages. They conjure things, yes? Why not conjure a crystal minotaur tank thing?
For healing, what if we expanded the first aid profession a bit more? We could make trinkets that let you attack your party and convert your attacks into healing abilities.
I don't know, this is all from the top of my head.
Let's take my rogue for example. Back in the 60s rogues loved the Hand of Justice trinket, but it was in BRD. I ultimately wound up tanking the place while I farmed thanks to the dodge and parry mechanic.
I would turn rogues, hunters, and warlocks into tanks (dodge, pets, and large health pools respectfully). Maybe we can invent a mechanic for mages. They conjure things, yes? Why not conjure a crystal minotaur tank thing?
For healing, what if we expanded the first aid profession a bit more? We could make trinkets that let you attack your party and convert your attacks into healing abilities.
I don't know, this is all from the top of my head.
"Feral Druids, of course, have the best of both worlds... they can tank and they can dps with no respec and only minimal (well, minimal from the perspective of a Tree Druid, of course) gear changes. Granted, the druid population is still the smallest of all WoW classes, so that does not help a whole lot."
I played a druid for a long time. As screwy as it sounds the biggest limiting factor in me getting groups as a healer was no OOC res. I would have people who whined they'd been trying to fill a group for hours turn me down because they weren't willing to run without a healer that could OOC res.
But there are tons of reasons it falls apart. You have whole instances that really have no good loot for entire classes.
There are entire faction grinds that are reward wise focused on one or two specs or classes.
At the below 60 mark the gear in the instances was never really fixed so many many people want to hurry past it and then start grouping at 60. Which makes the runs suck which makes more people just group with known quantities.
Everything about game design at this point hurts grouping. Even at 70 some classes can craft tier 4 equivilant and some cant. Taking away huge incentives for the ones that can to group.
Someone on one of the posts said rewards would help. And tobold said its bad game design.
I firmly believe that if the rewards were all balanced, If every instance had rewards of equal worth and desire for all classes and all specs. If the level 60 instances had just thier epics and blues reworked to BC standards that you'd see a lot more people grouping.
But in a game all about getting your loot. Blizzard seems to have a problem spreading the loot out evenly for all classes. And that hurts grouping terribly.
I played a druid for a long time. As screwy as it sounds the biggest limiting factor in me getting groups as a healer was no OOC res. I would have people who whined they'd been trying to fill a group for hours turn me down because they weren't willing to run without a healer that could OOC res.
But there are tons of reasons it falls apart. You have whole instances that really have no good loot for entire classes.
There are entire faction grinds that are reward wise focused on one or two specs or classes.
At the below 60 mark the gear in the instances was never really fixed so many many people want to hurry past it and then start grouping at 60. Which makes the runs suck which makes more people just group with known quantities.
Everything about game design at this point hurts grouping. Even at 70 some classes can craft tier 4 equivilant and some cant. Taking away huge incentives for the ones that can to group.
Someone on one of the posts said rewards would help. And tobold said its bad game design.
I firmly believe that if the rewards were all balanced, If every instance had rewards of equal worth and desire for all classes and all specs. If the level 60 instances had just thier epics and blues reworked to BC standards that you'd see a lot more people grouping.
But in a game all about getting your loot. Blizzard seems to have a problem spreading the loot out evenly for all classes. And that hurts grouping terribly.
@doriandra.
Its all about risk vs reward.
If dailies had never been implemented and the bosses in the instances had instead had thier gold drop bumped up say 200 gold per kill. Everyone would be running 5 mans.
I disagree. Pre BC a lot of people complained that they had to group to get thier stuff. But group they did. We ran strat, scholo, dire maul, BRD ,lbrs, ubrs and mc over and over to gear our alts and our mains. Because we had too. The fact that thier are alternative ways to get gear as good as whats in the instances is the problem.
I don't advocate taking away alternative advancement. But it needs to be tweaked somehow so that there is not a disencentive to grouping. People in this game do everthing to get thier loot.
If grouping sucks and I can get my loot solo. Why would I group unless the gear is better? or even different.
I screamed and yelled with everyone else in vanilla wow because I had such a hard time getting access to mats I could only get in raid instances for crafting. But I'd go back to that in a heart beat if it would get people to group more.
Its all about risk vs reward.
If dailies had never been implemented and the bosses in the instances had instead had thier gold drop bumped up say 200 gold per kill. Everyone would be running 5 mans.
I disagree. Pre BC a lot of people complained that they had to group to get thier stuff. But group they did. We ran strat, scholo, dire maul, BRD ,lbrs, ubrs and mc over and over to gear our alts and our mains. Because we had too. The fact that thier are alternative ways to get gear as good as whats in the instances is the problem.
I don't advocate taking away alternative advancement. But it needs to be tweaked somehow so that there is not a disencentive to grouping. People in this game do everthing to get thier loot.
If grouping sucks and I can get my loot solo. Why would I group unless the gear is better? or even different.
I screamed and yelled with everyone else in vanilla wow because I had such a hard time getting access to mats I could only get in raid instances for crafting. But I'd go back to that in a heart beat if it would get people to group more.
"Nobody wants to tank or heal any more."
Lies, hyperbole, bulldust.
The first character I levelled to 70 was a warlock, the second was a priest. I absolutely love healing. If there weren't people that enjoy healing and tanking there would be no groups at all.
I agree that respecs should be free, and it should be easier to level as a prot warrior, but these are tweaks not serious changes. Grouping isn't broken and doesn't need a major fix. On my mature server, DPS is often required to complete a group.. maybe slightly less than tanks, but it certainly happens.
Lies, hyperbole, bulldust.
The first character I levelled to 70 was a warlock, the second was a priest. I absolutely love healing. If there weren't people that enjoy healing and tanking there would be no groups at all.
I agree that respecs should be free, and it should be easier to level as a prot warrior, but these are tweaks not serious changes. Grouping isn't broken and doesn't need a major fix. On my mature server, DPS is often required to complete a group.. maybe slightly less than tanks, but it certainly happens.
# posted by : 14/4/08 17:03
: 14/4/08 17:03
I don't know if WoW can be changed at this point. It's more than just making respecs free, though that would be awesome. It would mean I could actually play my priest instead of only using her to finish the non-combat dailies then parking her cause she's too aggravating to play.
But see that's the problem: free respecs only help those of us who enjoy playing tanks and/or healers. It would mean we wouldn't have to be on dps alts all the time to get anything done. But it won't make a person who likes dps suddenly enjoy tanking or healing. And it won't train them how to do those jobs.
There's really no point in taking a warrior who doesn't like tanking and doesn't have gear or experience. If someone doesn't really want to do the job then they won't do a good job.
Secondly, as people pointed out, WoW now gives loads of incentives to solo, and little incentive to group. They need to swing the pendulum back some. Maybe giving out more badges per instance, I don't know what.
I think, without significant retuning of the instances, and making all classes hybrids that can do some of everything, the problem won't go away. But that would be like a whole new game, and if retuning means making things easier, people might balk at that.
But see that's the problem: free respecs only help those of us who enjoy playing tanks and/or healers. It would mean we wouldn't have to be on dps alts all the time to get anything done. But it won't make a person who likes dps suddenly enjoy tanking or healing. And it won't train them how to do those jobs.
There's really no point in taking a warrior who doesn't like tanking and doesn't have gear or experience. If someone doesn't really want to do the job then they won't do a good job.
Secondly, as people pointed out, WoW now gives loads of incentives to solo, and little incentive to group. They need to swing the pendulum back some. Maybe giving out more badges per instance, I don't know what.
I think, without significant retuning of the instances, and making all classes hybrids that can do some of everything, the problem won't go away. But that would be like a whole new game, and if retuning means making things easier, people might balk at that.
The solution is simple, and has been stated many times including here. Let players have 2 specs built that they can keep. They can switch to the other spec with a 1 hour cool down. So when you get that group together of balance druid, shadow priest, fury warrior, ret paladin, and elemental shaman, 2 of them can hit the tank or heal configuration (provided they have built a half way decent gear set for that spec). Then you go. Why doesn’t Blizzard do this? I’ve not heard a compelling reason yet (and the gold sink idea is not compelling).
The nice thing here is even if a person doesn’t really like to tank or heal, they CAN if needed every once and a while. And grouping will flourish greatly as a result.
As to the min-max issue of 2 specs not being viable for high bleeding edge raids? Correct this feature is not intended to help them. It would help the other 87% of players. Let the bleeding edgers keep specializing and honing their one inflexible spec and role.
This 2-spec ability can probably be free, or eat up some reagent costing (x) gold. But it should remember your button set up from the last time you used the other spec. Removing respec costs is not enough. It might be neat if this 2-spec ability was accessible through a long and interesting quest chain. I think back to the old Tier 0.5 quest chain that was loads of fun and could be accomplished mostly solo or with a buddy or two. More of this please.
- Jason (DPS Liberation Front)
The nice thing here is even if a person doesn’t really like to tank or heal, they CAN if needed every once and a while. And grouping will flourish greatly as a result.
As to the min-max issue of 2 specs not being viable for high bleeding edge raids? Correct this feature is not intended to help them. It would help the other 87% of players. Let the bleeding edgers keep specializing and honing their one inflexible spec and role.
This 2-spec ability can probably be free, or eat up some reagent costing (x) gold. But it should remember your button set up from the last time you used the other spec. Removing respec costs is not enough. It might be neat if this 2-spec ability was accessible through a long and interesting quest chain. I think back to the old Tier 0.5 quest chain that was loads of fun and could be accomplished mostly solo or with a buddy or two. More of this please.
- Jason (DPS Liberation Front)
# posted by : 14/4/08 17:50
: 14/4/08 17:50
I’m going to approach the other side of the argument here and say that the current system is generally fine. I do believe that Blizzard’s LFG system is completely broken. Nobody uses it and spams the Trade channels. Blizzard needs to create the LFG channels in every city too. I can’t get into the channel in most cities without first activating the LFG. Stupid way of doing it.
“i would really like to see the day that a guild is looking for well geared pvpers for something more meaningful than rolling pugs.”
Set up a pvp guild. Don’t know if there are any out there, but you could be the first.
“I've always liked the duel spec idea”
Unless I’m misunderstanding this comment, dual spec refers to being able to change specs on the fly. If we’re able to do that, then what’s the point of having specs anyway? You could change it mid instance, switch your gear, and go. This effectively removes a large majority of the challenge in the game. If it became too easy, would you really want to play?
“They need to make choosing to be a Healer or Tank more attractive to people”
“A main tank or a healer absolutely has to be on the ball in most of these dungeons in order to succeed. It's a role that brings a lot of attention if you are struggling.”
“Every healer/tank I know has a dps alt, but not every dps player I know has a tank/healer alt (most have other dps alts).”
I don’t know that they need to make this more attractive to people. I think the real problem here is that the average person is going to find tanking and healing extremely boring compared to dishing out the hurt. Also when the blame game starts, who gets blamed? Tanks and healers. Generally DPS only gets blamed when they break crowd control or don’t watch their aggro. This is a general statement so take it with a grain of salt, but it takes a particular mindset/personality to have fun playing a tank or healer.
“…think the tank/dps warrior roles need to be combined into one class… you could dispense with Healers altogether, and if not, seriously nerf the amount of healing that is required in the average instance…”
The problem with these comments is you are asking for a class that can do it all. What then would be the point of some of these classes? Each class/spec should have a particular strength above all others or what’s the point of even offering that class/spec? And shame on you for suggesting the removal of healers! [I’m a holy pally. :)] You’re attempting to make the group content the same as the solo aspect and I believe they should be distinctly different and offer completely different challenges. Part of that challenge should be more specialization in my opinion. Remember ultimately WoW is a multi-player game. Making classes that can do it all removes a lot of the need for that multi-player aspect. May as well go play a single player role-playing game at that point. Final Fantasy anyone?
Anyway, bottom line I think the system is fine. I enjoy the customization inherent with specializing. It allows for more freedom of play. Is it frustrating to level a tank or healer? Yeah! Get out there and make some friends for the harder stuff. It’s an MMO people.
“i would really like to see the day that a guild is looking for well geared pvpers for something more meaningful than rolling pugs.”
Set up a pvp guild. Don’t know if there are any out there, but you could be the first.
“I've always liked the duel spec idea”
Unless I’m misunderstanding this comment, dual spec refers to being able to change specs on the fly. If we’re able to do that, then what’s the point of having specs anyway? You could change it mid instance, switch your gear, and go. This effectively removes a large majority of the challenge in the game. If it became too easy, would you really want to play?
“They need to make choosing to be a Healer or Tank more attractive to people”
“A main tank or a healer absolutely has to be on the ball in most of these dungeons in order to succeed. It's a role that brings a lot of attention if you are struggling.”
“Every healer/tank I know has a dps alt, but not every dps player I know has a tank/healer alt (most have other dps alts).”
I don’t know that they need to make this more attractive to people. I think the real problem here is that the average person is going to find tanking and healing extremely boring compared to dishing out the hurt. Also when the blame game starts, who gets blamed? Tanks and healers. Generally DPS only gets blamed when they break crowd control or don’t watch their aggro. This is a general statement so take it with a grain of salt, but it takes a particular mindset/personality to have fun playing a tank or healer.
“…think the tank/dps warrior roles need to be combined into one class… you could dispense with Healers altogether, and if not, seriously nerf the amount of healing that is required in the average instance…”
The problem with these comments is you are asking for a class that can do it all. What then would be the point of some of these classes? Each class/spec should have a particular strength above all others or what’s the point of even offering that class/spec? And shame on you for suggesting the removal of healers! [I’m a holy pally. :)] You’re attempting to make the group content the same as the solo aspect and I believe they should be distinctly different and offer completely different challenges. Part of that challenge should be more specialization in my opinion. Remember ultimately WoW is a multi-player game. Making classes that can do it all removes a lot of the need for that multi-player aspect. May as well go play a single player role-playing game at that point. Final Fantasy anyone?
Anyway, bottom line I think the system is fine. I enjoy the customization inherent with specializing. It allows for more freedom of play. Is it frustrating to level a tank or healer? Yeah! Get out there and make some friends for the harder stuff. It’s an MMO people.
@sam
I was ironic when asking to make instance soloable and i agree with you on the before tbc and post TBC issue.
With the will to make so much stuff (pve/pvp, soloability, etc..) blizzard dumb down everything and the old mmo players are now unable to find something enough chalenging.
The only chalenging game i played these days was vanguard but with so much bug that it was almost unplayable.
Where are the good old days ? ;)
I was ironic when asking to make instance soloable and i agree with you on the before tbc and post TBC issue.
With the will to make so much stuff (pve/pvp, soloability, etc..) blizzard dumb down everything and the old mmo players are now unable to find something enough chalenging.
The only chalenging game i played these days was vanguard but with so much bug that it was almost unplayable.
Where are the good old days ? ;)
# posted by : 14/4/08 18:39
: 14/4/08 18:39
I think the main thing right now is that people who don't need anything from the 5 man instances are preferring not to run them, to do something else instead like play alts or PvP.
I have a tank and a healer and I only run 5 mans if my friends ask nicely. I can get all the badges I need from 10 and 25 man raids which I prefer anyway. So I think they have the rewards wrong for 5 mans, and I think they got the challenge level wrong too.
It's fine to say that people want to be challenged in 5 mans but in practice this means that most of the stress goes to the tank. No surprise really that people stop doing that when they no longer feel they have to.
I'm happy to be challenged the first few times I do something but if it's going to be slow, painful and challenging the nth time I do it with a PUG, then I'm not going to do PUGs.
Plus I agree with whoever said you're a bit late. By this point in the game, the dedicated tanks/healers are playing dps alts and they're who you are seeing around.
I have a tank and a healer and I only run 5 mans if my friends ask nicely. I can get all the badges I need from 10 and 25 man raids which I prefer anyway. So I think they have the rewards wrong for 5 mans, and I think they got the challenge level wrong too.
It's fine to say that people want to be challenged in 5 mans but in practice this means that most of the stress goes to the tank. No surprise really that people stop doing that when they no longer feel they have to.
I'm happy to be challenged the first few times I do something but if it's going to be slow, painful and challenging the nth time I do it with a PUG, then I'm not going to do PUGs.
Plus I agree with whoever said you're a bit late. By this point in the game, the dedicated tanks/healers are playing dps alts and they're who you are seeing around.
This is why LOTRO is fun. Don't absolutely NEED clear cut tanks/healers. Pretty much every class is a hybrid and can do a little of whatever needs to be done. Lots of people 4-6 man end game content with same-class groups. LOTRO has its problems, but its a seriously refreshing alternative to WoW these days.
The holy trinity is broken. Simple math.
5 man: 1 Tank, 1 Healer, 3 DPS
The standard group makeup required for 90% of WoW instances.
10 man: 2 Tank, 3 Healer 5 DPS
A 5 man * 2 would be two tanks, two healers, six DPS. Sorry. We need 1 less DPS and an extra healer. Hmm. Where do we get an extra healer?
25 man: 2-3 Tanks, 6-8 Healers, 14-17 DPS
A 5 man * 5 would be five tanks, five healers, fifteen DPS. Hmm. Well, now we don’t need that many tanks. Still need healers though! Oh and we would rather have 80% most of that DPS be ranged. Sorry.
The point is that as “progress” occurs, the ratios of what are “needed” to complete encounters dramatically alters. Where do these extra healers come from? Nowhere. Where do the tanks go in 25 mans? Is it any surprise that hybrids (paladins/shamans/druids) are asked to respec healing for the 25 man end-game? And it is also no wonder that tanks feel wanted in 5-mans and 10 mans and unwanted in everything else.
5 man: 1 Tank, 1 Healer, 3 DPS
The standard group makeup required for 90% of WoW instances.
10 man: 2 Tank, 3 Healer 5 DPS
A 5 man * 2 would be two tanks, two healers, six DPS. Sorry. We need 1 less DPS and an extra healer. Hmm. Where do we get an extra healer?
25 man: 2-3 Tanks, 6-8 Healers, 14-17 DPS
A 5 man * 5 would be five tanks, five healers, fifteen DPS. Hmm. Well, now we don’t need that many tanks. Still need healers though! Oh and we would rather have 80% most of that DPS be ranged. Sorry.
The point is that as “progress” occurs, the ratios of what are “needed” to complete encounters dramatically alters. Where do these extra healers come from? Nowhere. Where do the tanks go in 25 mans? Is it any surprise that hybrids (paladins/shamans/druids) are asked to respec healing for the 25 man end-game? And it is also no wonder that tanks feel wanted in 5-mans and 10 mans and unwanted in everything else.
I think this is even more proof that dailies might be killing this game. Yes, they are fun.... to solo. But that just gets everyone in a soloing mindset. Why be a healer or tank if you can get quality gear "soloing" in battlegrounds and tons of money through dailies? No grouping required.
I know getting group together can be hard, but the reward is great. I spent most of the last year mostly soloing bg's and doing dailies like everyone else. My guild just had a resurgence with grouping, we've now clear Kara. This is a lot more fun. I prefer trying to kill an NPC with 4 to 9 friends than killing each other in a BG. Less drama.
Blizz needs to focus on grouping again. Maybe the expansion should only have group related dailies?
But if they want to keep the game the way it is, the only solution I see is allow dual-spec's or much lower respec costs. A prot warrior dishing out more damage would be overpowered in PvP and PvE.
I know getting group together can be hard, but the reward is great. I spent most of the last year mostly soloing bg's and doing dailies like everyone else. My guild just had a resurgence with grouping, we've now clear Kara. This is a lot more fun. I prefer trying to kill an NPC with 4 to 9 friends than killing each other in a BG. Less drama.
Blizz needs to focus on grouping again. Maybe the expansion should only have group related dailies?
But if they want to keep the game the way it is, the only solution I see is allow dual-spec's or much lower respec costs. A prot warrior dishing out more damage would be overpowered in PvP and PvE.
I'd like to see more quests that require tanking or healing. Maybe escort quests where you have to keep your NPC party alive. (The Theramore First Aid quest is the only "healing" quest I can recall.) These new quests would make life more interesting compared to the current imbalance of FedEx / Kill-10-Rats quests.
But, as other people have said commented, that won't solve your 5-man grouping problem. Most people are in Kara by now, so the non-heroic 5-mans are as obsolete as MC. Just inspect people in the capital city of your choice, and see how many 70's don't have a single piece of epic gear. You won't find many -- those that aren't in Kara are running BG's for their epics.
But, as other people have said commented, that won't solve your 5-man grouping problem. Most people are in Kara by now, so the non-heroic 5-mans are as obsolete as MC. Just inspect people in the capital city of your choice, and see how many 70's don't have a single piece of epic gear. You won't find many -- those that aren't in Kara are running BG's for their epics.
Let's be honest, what's the appeal in being a healer or a tank these days?
If a group fails, they blame it on the tank for not keeping aggro or the healer not keeping up regardless if the dps pulled aggro or not.
Another issue is that Blizzard has glorified the DPS classes. It seems to be all about the DPS meters these days. We've recruited quite a few players with not 1 single PvE item, but a full PvP epic DPS set.
What is also frustrating is that as a healer, doing dalies takes twice as long as a dps class, I know there's no way to fix this, but it's still quite frustrating.
So where's the incentive? I'll group up with a pug, the dps won't know how to play and pull off the tank, we will wipe and they will blame the tank and healer without taking resposibility then leave...
To that sir, I say no thank you. That's why I, and I'm sure most healers refuse to run with PuGs.
Another major issue I'm seeing is players thinking they can run instances while being undergeared. I see a ton of players attempting to run the new MgT while still holding a bunch of greens blues. It seems like they expect to be carried to the good loot by the other 4 members. I've also seen this with heroics now that the keys have been lowered to honored.
Sure, as a healer I can find a group in about 5 minutes, but the question is... Do I even want to?
I also have a level 70 mage, and I'm considering making him my "main" when WoTLK come out. I guess I'll just add to the problem if I do that.
K.
If a group fails, they blame it on the tank for not keeping aggro or the healer not keeping up regardless if the dps pulled aggro or not.
Another issue is that Blizzard has glorified the DPS classes. It seems to be all about the DPS meters these days. We've recruited quite a few players with not 1 single PvE item, but a full PvP epic DPS set.
What is also frustrating is that as a healer, doing dalies takes twice as long as a dps class, I know there's no way to fix this, but it's still quite frustrating.
So where's the incentive? I'll group up with a pug, the dps won't know how to play and pull off the tank, we will wipe and they will blame the tank and healer without taking resposibility then leave...
To that sir, I say no thank you. That's why I, and I'm sure most healers refuse to run with PuGs.
Another major issue I'm seeing is players thinking they can run instances while being undergeared. I see a ton of players attempting to run the new MgT while still holding a bunch of greens blues. It seems like they expect to be carried to the good loot by the other 4 members. I've also seen this with heroics now that the keys have been lowered to honored.
Sure, as a healer I can find a group in about 5 minutes, but the question is... Do I even want to?
I also have a level 70 mage, and I'm considering making him my "main" when WoTLK come out. I guess I'll just add to the problem if I do that.
K.
# posted by : 14/4/08 19:15
: 14/4/08 19:15
Tobold put his finger on a sore spot.
RE: The 'reward'...
Let's just grant that WoW is, in general, about loot. Bear with me...
Now with that in mind, consider that many toons in WoW are alts, and others are savvy gamers, or at least have access to good advice. The ones running alts have probably either already done most or all of the instances.
And consider the case of my rogue, my wife's shaman, and my son's pally in the level 35-40 range. SM is there to be run! Well, GY doesn't have anything that any of us wants. But we have a decent quest for Lib-Armory-Cath, and the various boss drops. The loot tables look pretty good for a shaman who is about to learn 'mail armor' at level 40, and can use shield and gear with casting stats. But there was literally nothing, nothing at all, in SM that appealed to my rogue - and I've done SM many times with other toons, so I have no 'something new' incentive either. My son's pally liked the quest weapon and shield, and could use Scarlet chain drops until he got better plate.
So my son ran my rogue though RFD instead for the dagger on the last boss, which dropped on the first run. My rogue never set foot in SM. I ran my wife's shaman through SM Lib, then Armory and Cath enough times to get several good mail drops. And she never set foot in RFD. Later I ran my son's pally through SM Lib-Armory-Cath for the quest weapon and the shield, and he got some decent chain too.
This is *after* the big patch 2.3 that reworked the pre-60 instance drop tables.
Why would I run a PUG and slowly clear a familiar instance like SM (where a wipe has respawns to deal with) only to risk rolling for percentage-based drops at the end, when run-throughs are readily available?
If the idea was to revive correct-level groups in 20-60 instances, the design makes no sense to me.
---
And if you fast-forward to my main and my wife's main...
We're working with RL friends and family in level-70 instances in which we are there for the fun of it. We don't need the drops or rep, and would be better 'rewarded' with Kara badge runs, BG - PvP marks and honor, or daily gold.
Blizzard's realignment of TBC into a Kara / BG / Daily quest regimen is not good news for anyone who wants to run any 'old' 70 instances, IMO.
RE: The 'reward'...
Let's just grant that WoW is, in general, about loot. Bear with me...
Now with that in mind, consider that many toons in WoW are alts, and others are savvy gamers, or at least have access to good advice. The ones running alts have probably either already done most or all of the instances.
And consider the case of my rogue, my wife's shaman, and my son's pally in the level 35-40 range. SM is there to be run! Well, GY doesn't have anything that any of us wants. But we have a decent quest for Lib-Armory-Cath, and the various boss drops. The loot tables look pretty good for a shaman who is about to learn 'mail armor' at level 40, and can use shield and gear with casting stats. But there was literally nothing, nothing at all, in SM that appealed to my rogue - and I've done SM many times with other toons, so I have no 'something new' incentive either. My son's pally liked the quest weapon and shield, and could use Scarlet chain drops until he got better plate.
So my son ran my rogue though RFD instead for the dagger on the last boss, which dropped on the first run. My rogue never set foot in SM. I ran my wife's shaman through SM Lib, then Armory and Cath enough times to get several good mail drops. And she never set foot in RFD. Later I ran my son's pally through SM Lib-Armory-Cath for the quest weapon and the shield, and he got some decent chain too.
This is *after* the big patch 2.3 that reworked the pre-60 instance drop tables.
Why would I run a PUG and slowly clear a familiar instance like SM (where a wipe has respawns to deal with) only to risk rolling for percentage-based drops at the end, when run-throughs are readily available?
If the idea was to revive correct-level groups in 20-60 instances, the design makes no sense to me.
---
And if you fast-forward to my main and my wife's main...
We're working with RL friends and family in level-70 instances in which we are there for the fun of it. We don't need the drops or rep, and would be better 'rewarded' with Kara badge runs, BG - PvP marks and honor, or daily gold.
Blizzard's realignment of TBC into a Kara / BG / Daily quest regimen is not good news for anyone who wants to run any 'old' 70 instances, IMO.
# posted by : 14/4/08 19:25
: 14/4/08 19:25
Sorry, that should have been Doeg in the previous post.
Don't know how I did that...?
Don't know how I did that...?
# posted by : 14/4/08 19:26
: 14/4/08 19:26
At first, I liked the idea of adding the ability for everyone to have a 2nd spec that is free to switch between. But imagine if this is implemented. You'll have the same complaint again in a different way. Now the rogue/mage/hunter/etc get to have both PvE DPS and PvP DPS covered at the same time instead of getting by with one spec for both. And the tanks and healers are still left juggling 2 specs between PvE, PvP, and solo.
One idea would be to limit the 2nd spec to only be usable for the prot (skip feral, it's already dps/tank), holy, holy, and restoration trees. Yes, the other classes would cry foul, but it seems obvious from all the LF tank/healer complaints there needs to be more perks for playing them.
Another idea is to change the combat dallies. If you do it as holy/prot/restoration, you get 2x the gold. Again, people will cry foul, but then isn't the point that more perks are needed? Alternatively, add dallies where the only solution is to heal or tank. DPS wouldn't be happy with this either, but at least probably less upset than if the 2x gold was implemented.
I think my preference would be to figure out how to rework the prot/holy/holy/restoration trees for WotLK to be fluid like feral is and how it sounds like the DK class will be.
-Aanar
One idea would be to limit the 2nd spec to only be usable for the prot (skip feral, it's already dps/tank), holy, holy, and restoration trees. Yes, the other classes would cry foul, but it seems obvious from all the LF tank/healer complaints there needs to be more perks for playing them.
Another idea is to change the combat dallies. If you do it as holy/prot/restoration, you get 2x the gold. Again, people will cry foul, but then isn't the point that more perks are needed? Alternatively, add dallies where the only solution is to heal or tank. DPS wouldn't be happy with this either, but at least probably less upset than if the 2x gold was implemented.
I think my preference would be to figure out how to rework the prot/holy/holy/restoration trees for WotLK to be fluid like feral is and how it sounds like the DK class will be.
-Aanar
# posted by : 14/4/08 20:27
: 14/4/08 20:27
[i]”Now the rogue/mage/hunter/etc get to have both PvE DPS and PvP DPS covered at the same time instead of getting by with one spec for both.”[/i]
You have a good point there Aanar. I guess I’d have no trouble with every character having as many as 5 specs (or more), so long as there is a 1 hour cool down to prohibit tactical switching. Examples…
Farming (dps and efficiency)
Raid (tank, heal, or dps)
Group (usually same as raid but sometimes not)
BGs (dps and survability)
Arena (usually same as BGs but sometime snot)
- Jason (DPS Liberation Front)
You have a good point there Aanar. I guess I’d have no trouble with every character having as many as 5 specs (or more), so long as there is a 1 hour cool down to prohibit tactical switching. Examples…
Farming (dps and efficiency)
Raid (tank, heal, or dps)
Group (usually same as raid but sometimes not)
BGs (dps and survability)
Arena (usually same as BGs but sometime snot)
- Jason (DPS Liberation Front)
# posted by : 14/4/08 21:56
: 14/4/08 21:56
My paladin respec'd ret after two years of being holy. Healing gets very boring. Even more so when you are on the 5th or 6th hour of a raid. I can still heal regular 5 man dungeons just fine(only because I have good healing gear).
There is no point in trying to group since gaurenteed easy gear is avaliable in battlegrounds.
If season 1 or better gear dropped randomly from heroics I'd try and get more groups. The gear would be quicker to get the season 1 gear, but it wouldn't be gaureteed.
I think all heroic bosses should drop two epics. That would get me playing dungeons again.
There is no point in trying to group since gaurenteed easy gear is avaliable in battlegrounds.
If season 1 or better gear dropped randomly from heroics I'd try and get more groups. The gear would be quicker to get the season 1 gear, but it wouldn't be gaureteed.
I think all heroic bosses should drop two epics. That would get me playing dungeons again.
@doeg or tobold, no doeg claiming he is tobold ;)
You put a finger on it as you said, nobody is playing for fun anymore, everyone just want loot ! That's the only thing that kill pugs.
I find it fun to wype a little in a normal pug but greed was never in me...
You put a finger on it as you said, nobody is playing for fun anymore, everyone just want loot ! That's the only thing that kill pugs.
I find it fun to wype a little in a normal pug but greed was never in me...
# posted by : 14/4/08 23:16
: 14/4/08 23:16
I'd like to see a closetgnomes built into WoW for respeccing.
As in I Purchase a Healing / DPS / Tanking build costing me 100g each, and can change into any of those builds at a trainer at no cost any time I choose.
I find Hybrid classes, have it far worse off then a DPS class, as I generally have 3 sets of gear, healing, casting, enhancement as a shaman.
And also have to change depending on what ever situation.
Most of the times its Healing / DPS and one of the 2 DPS tree's. I can only imagine what Paladins and Druids go through, I guess Ill find out shortly as I'm leveling a Druid.
I have a feeling though that with the recent changes to Healing with the 33% damage, healing are a lot better off then they were previously, at being able to collect and stay in one tree and still do some PVE solo and PVP.
As in I Purchase a Healing / DPS / Tanking build costing me 100g each, and can change into any of those builds at a trainer at no cost any time I choose.
I find Hybrid classes, have it far worse off then a DPS class, as I generally have 3 sets of gear, healing, casting, enhancement as a shaman.
And also have to change depending on what ever situation.
Most of the times its Healing / DPS and one of the 2 DPS tree's. I can only imagine what Paladins and Druids go through, I guess Ill find out shortly as I'm leveling a Druid.
I have a feeling though that with the recent changes to Healing with the 33% damage, healing are a lot better off then they were previously, at being able to collect and stay in one tree and still do some PVE solo and PVP.
# posted by : 15/4/08 04:37
: 15/4/08 04:37
"You put a finger on it as you said, nobody is playing for fun anymore, everyone just want loot ! That's the only thing that kill pugs"
But loot and fun are intertwined. If you've run Steamvaults 10 times, are exalted with Cenarion Refuge there's no loot for you anymore. Furthermore there's no fun in the instance either as you already know what the bosses do and how to counter this by using a mage/hunter/lock crowdcontrol adds/ dps down adds, etc etc.
The only possible reason to do Steamvaults would be to run it on heroic and just do it for the badges. But there's other instances that give better time per badge rewards, and with Magister's Terrace now in the game the possibility of getting better loot from a "fresher" instance.
It's not all about the loot, but doing the same instance 10 times can no longer be regarded as 'fun'.
But loot and fun are intertwined. If you've run Steamvaults 10 times, are exalted with Cenarion Refuge there's no loot for you anymore. Furthermore there's no fun in the instance either as you already know what the bosses do and how to counter this by using a mage/hunter/lock crowdcontrol adds/ dps down adds, etc etc.
The only possible reason to do Steamvaults would be to run it on heroic and just do it for the badges. But there's other instances that give better time per badge rewards, and with Magister's Terrace now in the game the possibility of getting better loot from a "fresher" instance.
It's not all about the loot, but doing the same instance 10 times can no longer be regarded as 'fun'.
# posted by : 15/4/08 13:26
: 15/4/08 13:26
@Harold
In fact i don't talk about people doing instances for the 100th time but people who has never done it and instead go PVP for better loot.
In fact i don't talk about people doing instances for the 100th time but people who has never done it and instead go PVP for better loot.
# posted by : 15/4/08 15:49
: 15/4/08 15:49
happypappy play a tank. Tanks in raiding can require up to 5 sets of gear. shadow resist gear, frost resist gear, tanking gear, pvp gear , grinding gear etc etc.
Every class has the gear problem. It starts earlier on hybrids but at end game it just sucks for everyone.
Every class has the gear problem. It starts earlier on hybrids but at end game it just sucks for everyone.
My main is a DPS class, so I decided to roll a priest and a druid alt so I could be a healer. I thought finding a group would be easy.
Would you believe that I couldn't get a group to heal? No one wants to put together a group at low levels. All they want is a level 70 to blast through an instance for them.
It's pretty sad state of affairs.
-Ari
Would you believe that I couldn't get a group to heal? No one wants to put together a group at low levels. All they want is a level 70 to blast through an instance for them.
It's pretty sad state of affairs.
-Ari
# posted by : 15/4/08 19:50
: 15/4/08 19:50
its hard leveling if you want a group. I get about a group a week. So I log in less and level slower. Driving my friends at end game nuts.
I really wish they'd try to fix it.
I really wish they'd try to fix it.
It is a good thing our realm (EU Molten Core) doesn't have this problem. Healers are plenty, so are tanks. Paladins respec Prot often, new warriors appear who want to tank.
And, LFG channel and all LFG system isn't bad. It is people that bad. And ever most advanced LFG tool could not change bad people.
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And, LFG channel and all LFG system isn't bad. It is people that bad. And ever most advanced LFG tool could not change bad people.
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