Tobold's Blog
Monday, June 16, 2008
AoC and the future of story-telling in MMORPGs

I finally had a bit more time to play this weekend, and thus leveled my Age of Conan Herald of Xotl to level 30. I was looking forward to that, because the destiny quest which stopped at level 20 in Tortage continues at level 30. A friend of mine had the problem that his quest journal was full or something, and his level 30 destiny quest got bugged, so he is without destiny. So I deleted all quests from my quest journal before talking with the NPC for the level 30 destiny quest. All went well, he sends me to talk to some other NPC, then I'm sent into a small solo dungeon, where I need to collect some items, then first kill a mini-boss before killing the final boss. Fun, but short. I go back to the destiny quest NPC for my reward and the next quest, and am told that the next quest I can only accept at level 50. I log off, go to the account management site, and cancel my subscription for Age of Conan. Really, the destiny quest was the only thing that kept me going in that game. Even Funcom admits that content in the level 30s is thin at the moment and promises to add more later, so I don't think I'll grind to level 40 just to have a slow ride on a mammoth. I started another new character to see another angle of the destiny quest in Tortage, but that'll go quick, and I don't feel like playing Age of Conan any longer after that.

In addition to lack of interest in AoC, I'll also be on holiday for 3 weeks in July, and AoC won't run on my laptop. I'd rather go back to WoW or play some beta, or even some non MMO game. Maybe I'll buy Mass Effect, which just came out for the PC. I read a review which said that the main story of Mass Effect was great, even if the side quests were weak in comparison, and there were a couple of bugs. I couldn't help but think "oh, just like Age of Conan", only that in Mass Effect the main story doesn't end at one quarter of the level cap and then continues in tiny bits every 20 levels.

World of Warcraft doesn't really have a main story, but I never really missed one in that game, because the whole world, every quest, every zone, is of such high quality that you simply forget that there is not much purpose to killing another 10 foozles, except for gaining some xp and reward. Lord of the Rings Online has a main story, and it is certainly the best part of the game. I always liked the main story line with the cut scenes in FFXI. And in the pen & paper roleplaying campaigns and single-player computer or console RPGs I played, the story is usually of utmost importance. Just look at games like the Final Fantasy series, which manage to elevate themselves from a mass of console RPGs with similar gameplay by their superior story-telling.

And so I'm wondering if this is the future of MMORPGs: better stories, better story-telling, a main quest that leads you from level 1 to the level cap. Having a solo main quest doesn't mean that there would be no multiplayer interaction, there could always be group-only side quests or dungeons like in WoW. The quest system in WoW already does a good job of guiding people from one zone to the next, but it does so with a series of totally unrelated single quests and short quest chains. A coherent main quest line would perform the same guidance job, but be more engaging due to better story-telling, and more motivating because you follow a single epic quest to the level cap. There could even be real choices, leading to forks in the story path, providing replayability. And of course ideally there would be various main quests for the various classes or races.

Such a move wouldn't be historically unprecedented. The first D&D modules were simple hack and slash dungeon crawls with little story, but the pen & paper roleplaying genre evolved into something which is nowadays heavy on story-telling, often with an epic story-line spanning a campaign over years. Even in cinema the first movies were without a story, just a collection of scenes, where the fascination derived from the novelty of having moving pictures. It is quite possible that the MMORPG genre will evolve in the same way: the novelty of living in a virtual world will wear off, and the producers are forced to introduce stronger motivation to stick to the game, in the form of better stories.

And Age of Conan actually proves that telling a good story in a MMORPG is quite possible, I really liked the destiny quest from level 1 to 20. If that quest line would continue without huge gaps up to level 80, I'd still be playing AoC. It would be a lot easier for a new MMO to stand out from the competition with a unique and better coherent story, than to create a better virtual environment. And the AoC example of Tortage even shows how a well staged story can give the players the illusion that they actually had an impact, changed something in the virtual world, even if real change remains elusive due to the multi-player aspect of virtual worlds. Epic stories and better story-telling could really be the "next generation" of MMORPGs.
I agree, and I don't think it is that difficult to come up with a quest chain to keep you going.

Over the last couple of weeks I have been playing Warhammer Dawn of War. It is an RTS wargame, and like most others, it revolves around builing your base, defending it from attacks, massing a huge force of troops and then zerging your enemy.
Each scenario is pretty much the same as the others, but what keeps you interested in the campaign are the cut-scenes and storylines that take place in-between the missions.
Once I had finsihed the campaign, I decided to play some skirmish games against the computer, but I found that quite boring, because the only point of it was to beat the computer, and I knew I could do that anyway.

Without the story to keep me going, I didn't feel like playing it anymore.
Think I would prefer a much more open world and open gameplay, and leave the storyline stuff to single player games.
You should definitely try out Mass Effect Tobold. The gameplay is pretty average, but the story-telling is exceptional, and right up there with Baldur's Gate 2 and Knights of the Old Republic.

Bioware are close to peerless when it comes to telling a good yarn, and I doubt they'll put all that aside when crafting their upcoming MMO.
I think more storytelling would be a very good way to add consequences and a certain “change” to the world based on one’s decision. Combine the storyline with the urgency to choose a faction and to follow your personal epic quest and/or in addition a faction epic questline. You don’t have to choose which side you are on at the beginning of the game, but later on. Then you can only take quests of that faction in the future and have to battle against (n)pcs of the other factions. There are already small steps in that direction. Aldor/Scryer in WOW eg or GW Factions. You can even build in a reasonalble system to change faction later to add the spice of betrayal or intrigue, and maybe get access to even more epic questchains. Kind of a MMO-Fable…
The ork, betrayed by his kind…or the famous Drizzt. Maybe those decisions should be difficult and
could have some kind of drawbacks, otherwise you’ll have a lot of Deathknight running around on the good side for example, which could be kind of cheesy ;-)

The WoD pen&paper modes are strongly based on storytelling, so i am very corious about the announced WoD-MMORPG developed by CCP.
I don't understand you, Tobold :) You cancelled AoC because the destiny questline lacking yet talk about going back to WoW which has absolutely no main quest focus! Eh?

WoW may be very polished but it has no true substance. It's like eating hambugers because you can't aquire the taste for foie gras :)
Lol @ gordon

Did you actually read Tobold's 3rd paragraph? He laid out why he was ok with WoW's lack of a main storyline.

Also, did you honestly just try to say that AoC = the MMORPG version of foie gras? Lol, lol, lol!
Well AoC is definately suffering from the "not enought content" issue other games like LotRO had when they came out. I'm in the 50s but quit due to the grind that faced me. They are adding in quests specifically for that level but no thanks, don't feel like waiting. Plus, too many things are broken are always adjusted like pvp rewards, raid zones, and keep sieges. You would think there was no beta with how often they change each class abilities. Its almost like everytime someone posts a vid of a fight, they nerf the class that was the one doing the dmg. Oh well, it was fun for a week. Off to do some beta testing.
"World of Warcraft doesn't really have a main story, but I never really missed one in that game, because the whole world, every quest, every zone, is of such high quality that you simply forget that there is not much purpose to killing another 10 foozles"

Oh cmon! That is just not true. I have found absolutely no story in WoW, and since WoW is playable in single player and quests are mainly kill/bring with boring stories so generic that you stop reading them 15 minutes into gameplay which becomes click click, kill 10 what now?

I think future of MMORPG's lies with player interaction. The first company to craete a slick system of player for other players questing system which interacts a bit with pvp would be a hit.

The main power of MMORPG's comes from player interaction and the fact that you do everything together but even if you wont go killing fozzles alone but in group it gets boring pretty fast.

Story driven MMORPG's are lame in my opinion simply because you cannot read a stroy in a group and the game becomes single player. Secondly you can compare your gameplay to book reading where you have a few choices prepeared now and then but you spend most of the time reading the story, and different people like different tales so the stories shpould be dynamic, player driven and made by actions not narrated by npc conversations.
Secondly you can compare your gameplay to book reading where you have a few choices prepeared now and then but you spend most of the time reading the story, and different people like different tales so the stories shpould be dynamic, player driven and made by actions not narrated by npc conversations.

That could definitely be the next step. Currently if you fail to kill a boss mob, you rez and try again, and again, until the boss is finally dead. It would certainly be technically possible to create a story system in which you get only one attempt, and if you fail the story goes on in a different direction than if you succeed. And I already mentioned that stories could have forks and branches, and don't have to be linear like a book.

I have found absolutely no story in WoW, and since WoW is playable in single player and quests are mainly kill/bring with boring stories so generic that you stop reading them 15 minutes into gameplay which becomes click click, kill 10 what now?

Yes, WoW has no story, but it got away with it. You might have stopped reading quest texts after 15 minutes, but you didn't stop playing. Only after hundreds, or even thousands of hours did the lack of story become significantly annoying for people to burn out from WoW. What I'm saying is that for the next game the same approach might not work any more, that customers will demand more, and stories could well be the one thing that they demand. After all, when you go to the movies or buy a book, most of the time your main interest is in the story. Why shouldn't that work with MMORPGs?
Yes, the Destiny quest line is lacking after Tortage, but I had many good laughs from reading other quest texts in AoC. And as you said I too quit reading quest texts in WoW after a few minutes.
The real holy grail for Fantasy MMO's is to create a player generated dynamic world which creates its own story lines (similar to Eve Online).
I'm lvl 44 now, and I didn't have to grind a single mob :) There always were quests to do, a few of them green admittedly, and I had to go into two of the three lvl 20+ zones to be covered, but with those two I was busy all the time, including some (fun) group quests and the first instance (basically, tank and spank bosses, obviously).

If you don't like AoC because the game is not your thing, then so be it. Don't blame the "grind" or the "lack of quests around 30" though, as there is no such thing at early levels. I think around 60, the grind will be unavoidable right now, and that's where the new zone later this year will come in.

The destiny quests are somewhat thin, true, but it's not like they're the only story lines in the game - in fact, I found the quests to be more involving and deeper than WoW's, even in TBC (and I levelled 2 chars to 70). A prime example is the murder series in the Tarantia noble district - you have to question people, investigate murder scenes, gather clues, find The Pattern and finally piece it all together, and no quest marker tells you anything.

Of course me playing a barbarian and loving the class (and the fatalities) does help in keeping my interest. Updates are regular and abundant.

Whines on the official forums are even more abundant, which is why I took the burden of flaming all whiners - which is another thing that keeps me going, it's just too hilarious how much their posts usually lack simple things like consistency and logic.
I am with Haslo...
I am level 43, zero grind..I read all the quests, and know that many deal with lore and tell various stories and continue storylines based on the various books.
Is it the lack of voice that gets to you?...Funcom is fixing that by adding voice to the main Lore based quests (Zelata's quest line is an example going against Princess Akivasha, who is mentioned in REH's most memorable story..Hour of the Dragon) not just Destiny quests...
I have yet to have a serious game breaking bug..even ones that are noted as issues (The wounded child) was rectified by being patient and going in at a less than busy time..

The game is not perfect, but also is not a dud like LOTRO which is more of the boring drivel of "Kill 10 x foozles, Hit 1, watch combat, Click ok through quest dialogs as there is nothing to will be killing more boars anyways"

I think you were expecting WoW here, and treated AoC like WoW, and as such you will never get your WoW fix..

WAR sounds more like your thing to me.
No main storyline quests, just kill or be killed...
I think that will satisfy more of the old WoW regime.
I know it's already cancelled, T.

But really, you don't grind in AoC until the 50s from what I can gather. I'me nearly 44 and have a full quest log. In fact, recently I had to delete quests to get more in my current questing area.

I know you have a lack of interest yourself in the game, but wanted to note that you certainly don't grind that early in Conan.

I've had guild members who are near 80 tell me that they never really did have to grind so long as they did the group content.

Soemthing tells me those grinding are skipping group quests. Not that this is an excuse for not being able to solo to the cap, but the truth is, faced with grinding or grouping to do a dungeon... which would you choose.

And do indeed play Mass Effect. It's the best story in a game I've played all my young years.
" A prime example is the murder series in the Tarantia noble district - you have to question people, investigate murder scenes, gather clues, find The Pattern and finally piece it all together, and no quest marker tells you anything."

This is a great point by Haslo.

I did this one last night, and it's a great example that just because the Destiny Quest stops, doesn't mean the story does. In fact, I'd say AoC's quests are far more interesting than those you'll find in WoW.

Perhaps, more than anything, the gameplay's just not for you. I wouldn't blame the lack of quests at 30 (untrue really) for a sheer matter of preference.

Not to play Conan-Fanboi here, as even I'm stoked for WAR myself, but I'm just correcting any misconceptions you might have about the game.
I got to 44 in AoC and quit myself so I can feel your pain Tobold. The grind wasn't what turned me off, it was the combination of lots of things really. I admit they are doing a pretty good job of patching it up but its still not enough for me to stick around. Had they released it a little more complete perhaps it would of hooked me but in its current state it is just flat out boring to me. And believe it or not after a month away from WoW it was refreshing to go back.

As for strong story driven questing, I am all for it. I liked the destiny quest line in AoC and would love to see that type of questing in MMOs more often. Not just the good story but I really liked seeing my toon in cut scenes as well.
I still regard UO as one of the best MMO's ever and it had no quests (well iirc they introduced one or two quest like thingies late in its lifecycle), no real story and of course, no levels as such. Stories tend to be linear by design which is fine when consumed passively (book, movie) but not that good in a game. True some games try to break free from the tracks but it usually amounts to 2 or 3 possible paths instead of one, which occasionally also lead to one inevitable outcome. It feels confined.

I think dynamically player generated content will be the new hype somewhere in the future. A bit like UO but with more sophisticated software tools for creating content in an existing living virtual world.

In that old game a lack of pregenerated content made players and guilds inventive and imaginative. I remember whole scenarios being played out, including the obligatory but highly entertaining guild clashes. I think level driven games with clear paths for you to follow are at the end of their life cycle.
I was also disappointed by the gap in the destiny quest after level 30. I really liked how Tortage operated - you'd spend about half your time on the destiny quest and about half in multi-player mode.

In an ideal world, Funcom would have done the same all the way to the level cap. But in practice, there just aren't enough hours in the day, and you're left with a heavily front-loaded experience that quickly tapers off. They clearly didn't have enough time to keep up that level of content.

Still, I'm surprised you'd go back to WoW. Even as sparse as the destiny quests are in AoC's later levels, at least they're something to look forward too. WoW just has... nothing.
AMEN bvznl

Pregenerated story is bound to be singleplayer where world can be linear and get away with it. In MMO the story would have to have thousands of different paths which are completely different and still collide. That is impossible to plan out and make lots of fun.
As I wrote on my blog last week, I really think that MMOs are missing the bus on how to add new content. I think it would be incredibly cool for MMOs to revisit older zones and update the world story. Devs get so fixated on the idea that new content means new zones. I don’t think having a familiarity with the GEOGRAPHY of a place is a bad thing as long as the events that happen in that geography are new. In fact, I think having some past connection with a place that I am now adventuring provides a richer history. This is why the historic characters (Illidan, Thrall, Uther, Malfurion, Tichondrius, Arthas, etc.) and places are all very popular in WoW. There is a connection for many players between the current game and the previous Warcraft games. Where WoW goes wrong is that the story in Azeroth has pretty much remained static and stale since release.
"Epic stories and better story-telling could really be the "next generation" of MMORPGs"

If only Tobold. Sadly I think it isn't going to happen because the current popular view is that gameplay is much more important than storyline.

Given that gameplay is also cheaper to produce than story. I predict we are more likely to end up with massively multiplayer Peggle than a deep and engrossing mmorpg storyline.
I've been through some low spots playing AoC, and even cancelled my subscription already. However, last week's patches improved things greatly and I played for several hours yesterday with very little frustration.

I've made level 55, and have only had to do any serious grinding in the last few levels. I also played the first instance that seemed properly balanced for a single group, and it restored some faith in the potential for the PvE endgame.

As far as story-telling goes, it certainly isn't why I'm playing AoC. The Tortage destiny quests were nice, but only because they were novel for an MMORPG. I don't think they would be at all exceptional in a bog-standard single player RPG.

The same is true for most of the dialogue associated with normal quests. It may all fit well with the Conan lore, but I have tried and failed to build an interest in the creation of Robert E. Howard. For me, Funcom's Hyboria is just a generic MMORPG environment with extra Barbarians in place of the Orcs.

Funcom have even kindly facilitated the skipping of quest dialogue by indicating on your map exactly where you need to go for each quest. You could probably reach the level cap without learning a single thing about the world you're inhabiting. Just like in WoW, in fact.
Todays patch in AoC not only adds some new fixes...the fact that a ton of new quests in the Stygina zones have been added is a boon..

Someone has to ask they want to continue playing their old games and do the same things over and over, or experience something newer...maybe same mechanics, but with a new flair..

Yea..I will stick with AoC
I think Tobold's right. Everybody is drawn in by a story, and it adds more depth to a game. The real question is whether the storyline quests influence your end result, or whether the storyline quests are in addition to or don't matter to the end result.

A few single-player games come to mind that could possibly mesh well with a MMORPG - the Fallout series, where you can pick different factions depending on who you kill and how you do it, and Arcanum, where you can skill your character in magic or technology, and depending on how much you choose of each, you fall somewhere on a continuum. This concept from Arcanum would mesh well with a storyline, as well.

What do you all think?
Don't like the lack of a compelling general setting in most areas.

It's all a little bit of this, a little bit of that.

The only areas, that I like, are the cimmerian areas, since the vanir invasion comes to life quite nicely.

All in all I am not satisfied with AoC. Especially the 'simon sez' combo system gets old quickly. Since only the last keystroke of a combo really counts, dialing down 3 meaningless keys until finally hitting the key, that counts, just feels wrong in so many ways. Especially in PvP, where I'd rather be out of striking distance, while preparing the 'final' keystroke of a combo. Retarded.

Plus the game ain't finished und it feels like it's not been tested at all. It's unlikely that I'll give 'em a second chance.
This is an interesting time for this topic, as I tried the WoW Draenei starting area quests for the first time this past weekend. I found them quite fun, with a good mix of mini-stories and pop culture spoofs – and they paint your toon as a hero.

But I might not have noticed if I had failed to read the quests, or if I didn’t catch the pop culture references. I would not have realized that I was the Promised One of prophecy for the furlbogs, or the humor of ‘Kirkenstok’ sandals, or the spoof of the Kessel Run errand quest. If I wasn’t paying attention, I might not have joined in the event of the furlbog counterattack on the wildkin.

For me, that new-to-me zone is proving more fun than another raid or another battleground.
The only thing that makes me not care at all about story-telling in an MMO is that everyone has THE EXACT SAME STORY. A real innovation would be to set up a system where everyone has a different epic quest based in previous actions in the vein of Fable.
Tobold, I get the impression you're looking for a reason to justify leaving a game that's too aggressive for your tastes.
If Tobold doesn't like AoC, and decides to quit, it's his call.

Too many people on here question why, or call him wrong.

Go back and actually read what he said. It wasn't lack of quests, it was that the only thing keeping him in the game was the destiny quest, which disappears between levels 30-50.

Rather than trying to give reasons why Tobold quit instead of the stated reason, try explaining why you yourself like the game. Else you sound like AoC cheerleaders.

If Funcom isn't paying you to post here to "defend" the game, then explain why you like it, not some hidden reason you've discovered why Toboold doesn't like it.
It would be a lot easier for a new MMO to stand out from the competition with a unique and better coherent story, than to create a better virtual environment. And the AoC example of Tortage even shows how a well staged story can give the players the illusion that they actually had an impact, changed something in the virtual world, even if real change remains elusive due to the multi-player aspect of virtual worlds. Epic stories and better story-telling could really be the "next generation" of MMORPGs.

That is the truth, right there. The next-generation of MMOG is one that includes solid storytelling and a great solo experience. By solo experience, I don't mean not grouping to play, I mean making each player feel involved in their own character development and story line. Some MMOGs already do this in the form of cut scenes (FFXI, LotRO, AoC) that play for each individual, but that must extend throughout the full level range and the story must unfold smoothly and drive progression.

Once that is accomplished, the stories must be able to change in RPG fashion based upon your responses/actions. I know that is a lot to ask, but that is where the MMOG experience needs to move. It is fine to innovate and be revolutionary, but you've got to give people a reason to play. Grinding is not a reason to play, nor is it fun. Some players may excuse it, or justify it, but I will not. The game must continue to be fun and engaging for me to continue playing, especially if I am paying a subscription. Just as with any other subscription service, if it ceases to be useful, I cease to pay.
The reason's not hidden, n1ck. I just wrote it. Tobold doesn't want to try and compete in this heavily PvP oriented, active defending, and multi-button pressing game. We've read enough of his prior posts documenting his taste to know this.
If Tobold wants to compete in a competitive PvP environment, I don’t recommend AoC.
He’d be better off taking up some form of Martial Arts in, you know, RL.
I wouldn't mind seeing more factional stuff in MMOs or your dialog choices having more consequences (e.g. when I tell the father whose kids have lost their voices and who needs me to touch their teeth to some dogs that many a man will pay well for a wench with no teeth - he should tell me to bugger off (which he did) and then not allow me to get the quest again).

However, having a different major quest line, or losing the chance to kill a boss if you fail on the first time seems like it would lead to people just play it cautiously and only going to kill the boss when they are sure they will kill it. Add in the various issues that you have with online games (lag, disconnects, net drop outs etc) and it seems like it could be a bit of a problem.

With a single player game, you can always reload if you don't like the way something turns out, MMOs don't really provide you with that option.
I recommend Mass Effect very highly Tobold. I hear a LOT of complaints but I am really enjoying the game. The sidequests are repetitive, but I've suffered through worse. And the story is amazing. The combat system is an interesting hybrid between first person shooter and RPG, which leaves a lot of people on both sides not liking it. I find it alright, but it can get repetitive. Just remember that cover is king.
wow I see lots of angst over tobold quitting AOC but no real exciting posts saying why its fun and the place to be. The fact that you guys go straight to the defensive instead of spouting happy fun things about the game validates his point far more than yours.

why do you even care? If you are happy with it and he's not you should happily send him on his way.

why are MMO players like that unappy wife that has to bring everyone else down because she can't leave her problem?
I agree to some extent with Tobold here; there is not a lack of quests and stuff to do in AoC, but there is a lack of quests and other stuff that keeps my interest.

And if you repeatedly do stuff that you are not enjoying, then it becomes a grind. Be it doing quests, killing mobs, crafting whatever etc.

Just because it may have been more enjoyable doing quests in WoW might not be an indication that they are better - just that they were done before someone got sick and tired of these types of quests.

The things people put up with or like today might be quite different from a few years ago.
Some ideas & comments from my side.

WoW - no story
Wrong. The main weakness of WOW is that it does not properly link the main stories seamlessly. But, right from the start you get to know some themes & story elements which accompany you through your levels. Some examples (Alliance view):

- Dark Iron Dwarves & Ragnaros storyline. Starts in Dun Morogh goes on in Loch Modan, Uldaman, Searing Gorge Thorium Brotherhood, up to Black Rock Deep to High King Thaurissan. Ends in the raid dungeon Molten Core. Ties in to the...

- Onyxia & Nefarian storyline, told in quests (Stormwind), areas (Burning Lands), Dungeons (Black Rock Deep - Marshal Windsor questline, Lower/Upper Black Rock Spire) and Raid content (Onyxias Lair, Blackwing Lair). You can hardly get any better story tie in and combination of quests, dungeons and raids than that!

- Silithid/Ahn'Qiraj story arc. Started in various areas (Barren, Thousand Needles, Feralas, Tanaris) gets its own region (Silithus) and 2 Raid Dungeons (AQ 20 + Temple of Ahn'Qiraj, ending with the final confrontation against the personification of an Old God!).

The new expansion tells imho a much weaker story due to the lack of interest for myself in Illidan. Again, if you read between the lines (or if you actually care to read the quest text) you understand the tie in of various factions and areas (dungeons).

Story and lore-wise, TBC is much weaker, I have significantly less attachment to the story told here. Let's hope this will improve with Lich King!

Mass Effect
Regarding new games, I chime in to say that Mass Effect is really worth playing. Play all the sidequests, even though they are a bit generic.

If you can read German, read my blog entry to Mass Effect.
I am level 54 in AoC I have not been forced to do any grinding in order to level. I have heard that it starts in the sixities, but even then I know areas like Thunder River have a ton of 60-70 quests.

This is basically how I leveled:

1-20: Tortage
20-30: Conalls Valley
30-40: Wild Lands of Zelata (Sanctum)
40-50: Noble District & Field of the Dead
50+: Noble District and Eiglophian Mountains

I have yet to finish Toirdealbach's Tomb in FotD and I also need to complete Cistern/Main system in the Noble District. I really feel that I still have plenty of new content to explore for every level I reach.

Funcom is also putting out new quality patches every Monday and Thursday.

I am by no means claiming that AoC is a perfect game without any problems, but I am saying that the game is a lot of fun.

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