Wednesday, June 25, 2008
Mass market MMORPGs and hidden gems
I'm certainly guilty of having reacted to the provocation in Richard Bartle's remark about Warhammer Online instead of the subject. From all sides there has been too much discussion about whether that provocation was intentional or unintentional, and not enough discussion about Dr. Bartle's ideas. I think lots of people reading his contributions on this blog, Brokentoys, or Waaagh would agree that there are some very valid points in his extended explanations. Or as one of his comments puts it, he comes over better when he has "a backspace key". So lets forget about the controversy, and have a look at one of the underlying issues: Mass market MMORPGs and hidden gems.
I think you'll have noticed by now that I am a fan of mass market MMORPGs, and Richard Bartle is a fan of hidden gems. If I understand his explanation correctly this is because I play for fun, and he plays to look at the underlying mechanisms and innovation. I can agree with Dr. Bartle that if you make a list of features of World of Warcraft and a list of announced features of Warhammer Online, the two lists will be largely identical. And the features WAR has that WoW hasn't, like RvR, the Tome of Knowledge, or Living Guilds, look suspiciously like old ideas from games like Dark Age of Camelot, Lord of the Rings Online, or Everquest 2.
But as I am playing for fun, I'm less concerned about whether an idea is novel, I'm more concerned with the execution of that idea. The term is overused, but "polish" is important for a mass market MMORPG. Quests certainly weren't a new idea when World of Warcraft came out, but somehow WoW made them more fun than the quests in other games. So when I am looking at WAR, I don't see a bunch of old ideas. I see a potentially fun new execution and new mix of old ideas.
Also one major interest of mine in MMORPGs has always been how players react to game design and features. And I found that the reaction very much depends on tiny details in execution. For example there are games where the looking for group feature works very well, and in World of Warcraft it simply doesn't. If I see WAR's public quest system described, I don't see a combination of old concepts, quests combined with forced cooperation. I see a potential new way of people interacting, which could lead to very interesting new social dynamics, both positive and negative. If done right, this could be a lot of fun.
I do play "hidden gem" type games sometimes. I went through several incarnations of A Tale in the Desert, I played Puzzle Pirates, and currently I'm having a lot of fun with Kingdom of Loathing. But most of that fun is of the "explorer" type, as Dr. Bartle would call it. Which is fine if you start a new game, but is running out relatively quickly. "Achiever" and "socializer" fun tends to have a longer lifetime, because achievements can be done with repetitive content, and socializing fun is endless, unless you get tired of the human race. The same is true for "killer" fun, even if I'm not into that. So while hidden gem type games are innovative, I usually don't play them for very long, because by definition innovation only lasts until you are familiar with it.
Mass market games can justifiably be accused of just being a polished version of old ideas catering to the lowest common denominator. But by doing that they attract a larger crowd of people, and that larger crowd brings certain advantages. One advantage is simply money: You can't design a niche game with a $50 million budget. So the hidden gem games have less content, less graphics, less quality control, less money invested in hardware. That might not be important if you only look for innovation, but can be important if you play for fun. The other advantage is that more people means more possibility of social interaction, although not necessarily better quality. A Tale in the Desert certainly has a better community than World of Warcraft. But as discussed in the previous article, a bigger game means a better chance to get past the critical mass needed to find groups. And some interesting social phenomena only appear in mass market games.
Finally I would argue that mass market games are more fun. Not in the sense that any one given person can not have more fun in a hidden gem game than in a mass market game. But in a sense of statistical probability. A random person is more likely to have fun in World of Warcraft than in Achaea. Because to assume otherwise you have to subscribe to a theory that players don't know what fun is, and are herded into bad games by big companies with clever marketing. I don't buy into that theory, I think most players know very well what is fun, and are rather fickle in chosing games. The decision which game to choose might be affected by other factors than game design, like cost, or where all my friends are. But subscription numbers are broadly indicative of fun, even if they tell you nothing about how innovative a game is.
New ideas are certainly important for the future of MMORPGs. If game companies would produce nothing but identical WoW clones from now on, the genre would be dead in a few years. But new ideas isn't the only important thing for the future. Money, and the social acceptance that comes from millions of players playing the same game are also a part of that future. Ideas are a great thing, but implementing ideas often costs money. If we only had lots of small games with a few thousand players and financing based on donations, the MMORPG genre would be going nowhere either. In the end, we need both: the hidden gem that serves as a testbed for new ideas, and gives home to small groups with more specific tastes; and the mass market MMORPG that "polishes" the ideas, and distributes them to millions, making enough money for investors that they are willing to finance the next big game, and driving the perception of the genre in the media.
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Very true Tobold, what would be the new features of wow or war if other games do not "invent" them.
Without LOTRO, no achievement concept in WOTLK.
The difference between gems and mass market would be the "accessibility" to the masses from my opinions.
It's the same in every industries, new inovative concepts are often from small structures which are bought by bigger one at the end.
Without LOTRO, no achievement concept in WOTLK.
The difference between gems and mass market would be the "accessibility" to the masses from my opinions.
It's the same in every industries, new inovative concepts are often from small structures which are bought by bigger one at the end.
I don't really think that killing random mobs for xp is all that fun. Esp when we all know they respawn x minutes later anyway. I didn't think it was especially fun when we did it in MUDs and it's not especially fun now. The whole core premise of MUD-based MMORPGs could benefit from a going over imo.
But I do really enjoy a puzzle/problem solving tactical game (which is what PvE basically is) that I can play with friends and build a community around. I do also think that the fights themselves are way more fun on MMORPGs ... better than streaming lines of text with you struggling to type commands fast enough to keep up.
I think there's a lot of scope for building better MMORPGs. Some of it will be incremental (really looking forwards to the public quests and RvR in warhammer), and some will come out of left field. I won't be surprised to see some interesting MMO type games get developed for smartphones, esp now that Symbian is going open(ish) source.
But I do really enjoy a puzzle/problem solving tactical game (which is what PvE basically is) that I can play with friends and build a community around. I do also think that the fights themselves are way more fun on MMORPGs ... better than streaming lines of text with you struggling to type commands fast enough to keep up.
I think there's a lot of scope for building better MMORPGs. Some of it will be incremental (really looking forwards to the public quests and RvR in warhammer), and some will come out of left field. I won't be surprised to see some interesting MMO type games get developed for smartphones, esp now that Symbian is going open(ish) source.
I think that the effect that Mass MMORPGs have on the wider market should also be recognised.
By being popular, they keep a larger number of people interested in the genre, which means that the niche games have a greater chance of attracting players (a 1% share of a 1m market compared to a 1% share of a 100m market).
Without the people from WoW or WAR or EQ2 trying out the new games, these niche developers would have an almost prohibitive chance of getting people to actually play the game.
By being popular, they keep a larger number of people interested in the genre, which means that the niche games have a greater chance of attracting players (a 1% share of a 1m market compared to a 1% share of a 100m market).
Without the people from WoW or WAR or EQ2 trying out the new games, these niche developers would have an almost prohibitive chance of getting people to actually play the game.
"...if you make a list of features of World of Warcraft and a list of announced features of Warhammer Online, the two lists will be largely identical." You would think that a game released several years ago and working on it's second expansion would have a larger feature list than a game that hasn't been released. "...and the mass market MMORPG that "polishes" the ideas..." It would be nice if the current big name in MMO's would polish some of the ideas/features present in other games. Maybe WotLK will deliver some "new" features. I'm a bit hopeful about some of the news surrounding it, and the current test realm patch does raise my eyebrows.
honestly I think our best bet at innovation is some company finally trying out the idea blizzard promised and never delivered.
A big world that actually changes as the time goes by.
A big world that actually changes as the time goes by.
I think almost every industry has to find this same balance. It is a balance between how many resources to put into research and development, and the resources to keep the primary business healthy. Ideas are infinate, but the power to implement them and see if they actually work is limited.
I think, in the end, Tobold is right. A healthy industry needs the little guys AND the big guys, to challenge and push innovation, but also to perfect and stabalize the existing state of the art.
I also very much agree with Sam that the idea of a persistent and changing world would be taking advantage of a very unique elment to the genre. Stepping into an MMO should be like the old example of stepping into a river; it should never be the same river. instead, we find ourselves trapped in worlds that hardly change at all, where time is all but frozen in place, and nothing we do seems to have a true impact.
I think, in the end, Tobold is right. A healthy industry needs the little guys AND the big guys, to challenge and push innovation, but also to perfect and stabalize the existing state of the art.
I also very much agree with Sam that the idea of a persistent and changing world would be taking advantage of a very unique elment to the genre. Stepping into an MMO should be like the old example of stepping into a river; it should never be the same river. instead, we find ourselves trapped in worlds that hardly change at all, where time is all but frozen in place, and nothing we do seems to have a true impact.
Sam, Asheron's Call did that, and I'm sure others have as well. If you count territory control as change, EVE and Shadowbane do it regularly.
Finally Asheron's Call 2 was built around that idea, but sadly it could not stay online long enough to actually get very far.
Finally Asheron's Call 2 was built around that idea, but sadly it could not stay online long enough to actually get very far.
I wasn't really thinking of territory control. I was thinking of quests that actually end at some point. Patches that change the storyline or update it. Honestly my idea of a perfect mmo world is one where I could at any time go find out that something had changed. to put it in wow perspecive. Goldshire is gone the forsaken have overrun it and are preparing to attack stormwind. cookies brothers come back and extract murloc style revenge on Westfall for killing him and now the marshall in westfall has new quests to help contain the new menace. The sons of rags revamp MC and prepare anew to terrize the world. The neutral factions ocassionally join one side or the other. I think to many developers kill all fun ideas because of the fact that every new thing they do will piss off at least one person. So they use that as an excuse to not do anything new.
That's basically what Asheron's Call did, although it was monthly and with less impact that something like Goldshire being overrun. That said, if my memory serves me correctly, they did have at least one large invasion event that lead to the permanent destruction of a city, among other events.
Why more games today don't have an overarching storyline is a good question though, I suspect it has something to do with the amount of resources it would take to run, but who knows.
Why more games today don't have an overarching storyline is a good question though, I suspect it has something to do with the amount of resources it would take to run, but who knows.
I'm having some difficulty with the premise here that playing mass-market = playing for fun.
Fun to me includes not getting bored by playing the same old thing. And some features won't entertain me regardless of 'polish' or execution, they're just a matter of preference.
It's like pop music versus the blues. Some people listen to what they like, regardless of genre or popularity. Others aren't comfortable listening to something unless everyone else is listening to it too.
There's a strong human desire to relate to one another, to 'fit in' and be understood. The easiest way to fulfil that is by going with the crowds. That, to me, is not the same thing as fun at all.
If you're telling me you think the majority of the 9+ million WoW players are there for the fun factor.. I'm in complete disbelief of that theory. It began that way, but I don't think that's how it has ended up.
When achievement becomes such a strong part of our entertainment, people become less entertained and other goals kick in. This, is not so different from what Richard Bartle examines, the social complexities of virtual worlds.
Fun to me includes not getting bored by playing the same old thing. And some features won't entertain me regardless of 'polish' or execution, they're just a matter of preference.
It's like pop music versus the blues. Some people listen to what they like, regardless of genre or popularity. Others aren't comfortable listening to something unless everyone else is listening to it too.
There's a strong human desire to relate to one another, to 'fit in' and be understood. The easiest way to fulfil that is by going with the crowds. That, to me, is not the same thing as fun at all.
If you're telling me you think the majority of the 9+ million WoW players are there for the fun factor.. I'm in complete disbelief of that theory. It began that way, but I don't think that's how it has ended up.
When achievement becomes such a strong part of our entertainment, people become less entertained and other goals kick in. This, is not so different from what Richard Bartle examines, the social complexities of virtual worlds.
When achievement becomes such a strong part of our entertainment, people become less entertained and other goals kick in
Its not just achievement. Its also admitting the massive time they spent in a video game was just entertainment and nothing else. Some people in MMO's get more upset that thier "virtual" friends screwed them over than they do when it happens in real life.
Sad but true
Its not just achievement. Its also admitting the massive time they spent in a video game was just entertainment and nothing else. Some people in MMO's get more upset that thier "virtual" friends screwed them over than they do when it happens in real life.
Sad but true
(On the world-changing sub-topic)
The problem with a player *really* impacting the world is that it is an MMO.
In a group sense, I helped retake the Isle after patch 2.4.
But I missed the AQ event, and will probably never see it - thus the world changed, and I missed it forever.
Think about this: What happens when the super-hardcore guild clears Karazhan six weeks after TBC release?
The more-casual guilds all walk through an empty tower?
That said, there are several real impacts that my level-70 has made on my WoW “world” that I noticed when leveling up another toon (besides the obvious that I have less “!”).
For example, my level-70 ‘main’ sees ghosts in Nagrand all the time, my level 67 does not see them. She is “Queen of the Ogres”, formerly-hostile BEM ogres are neutral to her, and she gets nice compliments from the Skyguard and Ogri’la ogres.
I think that part of the problem is that the ‘real’ impacts have to be carefully managed.
And that people make an impact here and there, then forget or come to take for granted the impact they made, and think “nothing I do ever changes anything”.
The problem with a player *really* impacting the world is that it is an MMO.
In a group sense, I helped retake the Isle after patch 2.4.
But I missed the AQ event, and will probably never see it - thus the world changed, and I missed it forever.
Think about this: What happens when the super-hardcore guild clears Karazhan six weeks after TBC release?
The more-casual guilds all walk through an empty tower?
That said, there are several real impacts that my level-70 has made on my WoW “world” that I noticed when leveling up another toon (besides the obvious that I have less “!”).
For example, my level-70 ‘main’ sees ghosts in Nagrand all the time, my level 67 does not see them. She is “Queen of the Ogres”, formerly-hostile BEM ogres are neutral to her, and she gets nice compliments from the Skyguard and Ogri’la ogres.
I think that part of the problem is that the ‘real’ impacts have to be carefully managed.
And that people make an impact here and there, then forget or come to take for granted the impact they made, and think “nothing I do ever changes anything”.
Players often ask for the ability to change the world by their actions, forgetting that this means that other people will be able to do the same thing to them. (and yes, that includes gankers and griefers and people way more hardcore or way more organised than you.)
I'd love to see a game that let me add content, I think one of the CoH devs had an idea for letting players design small instances, complete with NPC dialogue and letting other players score them. I'd be all over that.
I'd love to see a game that let me add content, I think one of the CoH devs had an idea for letting players design small instances, complete with NPC dialogue and letting other players score them. I'd be all over that.
RE: WoW = WAR, and “hidden gems”
Well, what exactly is new and different in a game?
I see that 'A Tale in the Desert' and 'Puzzle Pirates' are put forward, but are these based entirely on new ideas - revolutionary - or a port and recombination of already-existing ideas into the MMO genre?
Allow me a reminiscence...
There was the classic wargame like Russian Campaign.
And larger-scale wargames (company or squad level) like Squad Leader.
But were wargame entries like Kingmaker or Machiavelli revolutions? They certainly worked a different side of war, the negotiations and politics (and with moves written in advance, with conflict resolution).
How about Air Wars (I think it was called), which handled 3D air combat on a 2D board, and you had to write down your plane’s moves in advance based on your aircraft specifications?
Those were the days, eh?
One could argue that classic Risk melded many of those elements in a very popular game - maybe we should have banned Risk to open the door for these other games?
And the arcade...
One can see how Space Invaders is in the lineage of alien shooters. Later came some better animation, better graphics, first-person versions, etc.
On the other hand, the arcade video 2-player (American) football game appeared about that time, and later a 4-player version - a sports game, and maybe less-played because Space Invaders dominated the game room?
Dragon’s Lair was essentially a very complex Simon game. Problem was, it had an ending. So eventually people chose to play other games - or nothing at all when it was the only game at the Pizza Hut.
Should we have banned D&D so that Traveller and Gamma World would have had a better chance?
Or have banned Magic: The Gathering so that Star Wars CCG and Battletech CCG would have a better shot?
My points:
1) All games have a heritage, and a history, and a fan base, and a finite lifespan.
2) Hidden gems - even the ones that are really gems - are ‘hidden’ for a reason. And it may well be that given a *choice*, a player would choose to play another game, or choose to play nothing at all, than the ‘hidden gem’.
Well, what exactly is new and different in a game?
I see that 'A Tale in the Desert' and 'Puzzle Pirates' are put forward, but are these based entirely on new ideas - revolutionary - or a port and recombination of already-existing ideas into the MMO genre?
Allow me a reminiscence...
There was the classic wargame like Russian Campaign.
And larger-scale wargames (company or squad level) like Squad Leader.
But were wargame entries like Kingmaker or Machiavelli revolutions? They certainly worked a different side of war, the negotiations and politics (and with moves written in advance, with conflict resolution).
How about Air Wars (I think it was called), which handled 3D air combat on a 2D board, and you had to write down your plane’s moves in advance based on your aircraft specifications?
Those were the days, eh?
One could argue that classic Risk melded many of those elements in a very popular game - maybe we should have banned Risk to open the door for these other games?
And the arcade...
One can see how Space Invaders is in the lineage of alien shooters. Later came some better animation, better graphics, first-person versions, etc.
On the other hand, the arcade video 2-player (American) football game appeared about that time, and later a 4-player version - a sports game, and maybe less-played because Space Invaders dominated the game room?
Dragon’s Lair was essentially a very complex Simon game. Problem was, it had an ending. So eventually people chose to play other games - or nothing at all when it was the only game at the Pizza Hut.
Should we have banned D&D so that Traveller and Gamma World would have had a better chance?
Or have banned Magic: The Gathering so that Star Wars CCG and Battletech CCG would have a better shot?
My points:
1) All games have a heritage, and a history, and a fan base, and a finite lifespan.
2) Hidden gems - even the ones that are really gems - are ‘hidden’ for a reason. And it may well be that given a *choice*, a player would choose to play another game, or choose to play nothing at all, than the ‘hidden gem’.
"A random person is more likely to have fun in World of Warcraft than in Achaea. Because to assume otherwise you have to subscribe to a theory that players don't know what fun is, and are herded into bad games by big companies with clever marketing."
It's funny that you see so many fans of niche genres try to make this exact argument on message boards (if not worded so clearly).
In any case, great post. I agree wth your points 100% on this one.
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It's funny that you see so many fans of niche genres try to make this exact argument on message boards (if not worded so clearly).
In any case, great post. I agree wth your points 100% on this one.
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