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Monday, June 02, 2008
WoW alts and Pokemon
I'm not totally happy with my three level 70 characters in WoW: the mage would need a lot of reputation that the first two characters already grinded. Some reputations are now much harder to get, because nobody visits normal dungeons any more. Others are simply boring, and I'm so not up for killing the same mob over and over for the third time. So I was wondering why some things, like reputation, aren't shared between alts. And why can't alts for example enchant or disenchant each other's gear, which for that purpose could be put in a shared bank slot. Overall I find WoW treats alts too much like completely separate characters, and not enough like different aspects of the same player.
That made me think of the various Pokemon RPGs on the Nintendo. In them you play a boy who is a trainer of Pokemons. And in combat you play the various Pokemons. So part of the character development takes place for the trainer, and part of the character development applies only to the particular Pokemon that fought. And that is something I'd like to see more in MMORPGs: Part of what you do in the game counts for the whole account, e.g. reputation, and part of the rewards only apply to the character you're currently playing, like xp and levels. Right now the only account-wide thing is gold, which can be more easily transferred between characters of the same account than between strangers.
Another interesting improvement would be making quest rewards and epic crafted items "bind on account" instead of bind on pickup. Why can't my mage tailor make crafted epic robes for my priest? And how often did you do a quest where you couldn't use any of the quest rewards, but an alt of yours would have loved them. I'd keep dungeon drops bind on pickup, because making those bind on account would only encourage ninjalooting. But I don't see why crafted and quested items need to bound to the character instead of the account.
- posted by Tobold @ 6:24 AM Permanent Link
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Blizz has mentioned account-server-bound items for WotLK.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=6417312045&sid=1
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=6417312045&sid=1
# posted by 
: 2/6/08 07:07
: 2/6/08 07:07
I think i read something about "easier reputation for Alts", but can not find the article. I think it was a Dev interview or something like that linked by WoW-insider.
It would make enchanting SO much easier. It is insulting how I can have a master enchanter and yet enchanting every other character is a pain in the ass.
It would be very nice to only have to grind rep once....
I think they're so hesative, because it will favor, our less casual gaming friends.
Imagine the power of those able to get 9 level 70's with all the professions available. Getting enchanting and leatherworking - and still being able to use all the best stuff from your JC, engineering and tailoring alt and being able to make all the best options and flasks....
I think they're so hesative, because it will favor, our less casual gaming friends.
Imagine the power of those able to get 9 level 70's with all the professions available. Getting enchanting and leatherworking - and still being able to use all the best stuff from your JC, engineering and tailoring alt and being able to make all the best options and flasks....
# posted by : 2/6/08 10:30
: 2/6/08 10:30
Hmm, interesting - regarding Bind on Account items.
When I would go into instances with a PUG, occasionally you'd have a "greedy" player in the group. I can just imagine that same greedy player wanting to roll on everything so that he could now give it to his alt.
When I would go into instances with a PUG, occasionally you'd have a "greedy" player in the group. I can just imagine that same greedy player wanting to roll on everything so that he could now give it to his alt.
# posted by : 2/6/08 14:05
: 2/6/08 14:05
Players would indeed roll anything and everything that would drop in an instance, the idea of pugging would be laughable as nearly everyone has an alt or 2.
I can somewhat see rep sharing on alts, but not gear, or professions.
I can somewhat see rep sharing on alts, but not gear, or professions.
# posted by : 2/6/08 14:09
: 2/6/08 14:09
There was something about the ability to sell some enchants over the auction house, but I'm still worried about that "some".
I won't consider leveling enchanting on any of my chars as long as I don't get a "every enchant will be written on a piece of paper and can be handed around as you please".
I won't consider leveling enchanting on any of my chars as long as I don't get a "every enchant will be written on a piece of paper and can be handed around as you please".
# posted by : 2/6/08 14:15
: 2/6/08 14:15
Some interesting thoughts, but I understand why, for the most part, things are they way they are. Quest rewards do not have a level requirement, so making them bind-on-account would lead to a lot of level 19 Warsong twinks carrying around quest reward gear from level 69-70 quests. A level requirement equal to the level requirement of the quest that grants them would have to be added to all those items.
And BoP crafted epics are meant to be a reward for levelling the profession, a reason to level it. A player-retention mechanism, and a guarantee of enough players with that specific profession to help maintain the crafted portion of the economy.
Shared rep? Rep-grinding is another of those mechanisms by which they keep bored level-capped players playing. I believe implementing shared rep would impact player retention in the long run.
And BoP crafted epics are meant to be a reward for levelling the profession, a reason to level it. A player-retention mechanism, and a guarantee of enough players with that specific profession to help maintain the crafted portion of the economy.
Shared rep? Rep-grinding is another of those mechanisms by which they keep bored level-capped players playing. I believe implementing shared rep would impact player retention in the long run.
# posted by : 2/6/08 14:16
: 2/6/08 14:16
Having the currently BoP crafting items changed to "bind to account" would give a huge advantage to those who have the time to max out characters with every tradeskill to create a supercharacter with the best items from every profession.
Why do your alts not share reputation? It's because they're not the same actors in the world. Why would my mage be earning reputation for feats performed by my priest? It doesn't make any sense to me.
Playing alts is a choice, it is not forced upon you by the game in any way.
Why do your alts not share reputation? It's because they're not the same actors in the world. Why would my mage be earning reputation for feats performed by my priest? It doesn't make any sense to me.
Playing alts is a choice, it is not forced upon you by the game in any way.
# posted by : 2/6/08 14:19
: 2/6/08 14:19
Sorry for the addon post..
But I just thought, would BoA items means you'd just pass down your old quest reward gear to a lower level alt once you'd outgrown it? Or would the items be BoE but only tradeable within the account prior to equipping it?
But I just thought, would BoA items means you'd just pass down your old quest reward gear to a lower level alt once you'd outgrown it? Or would the items be BoE but only tradeable within the account prior to equipping it?
# posted by : 2/6/08 14:21
: 2/6/08 14:21
I'm sorry to say that point of view is really one-sided. An optimal community is one where low level and high level players are independent on each other. Giving one account that much power would make them almost indepedant of the rest of the community, which is not a good thing.
How is what you're suggesting any different then dual-boxing, which is legal, but very much frowned upon by everyone.
How is what you're suggesting any different then dual-boxing, which is legal, but very much frowned upon by everyone.
# posted by : 2/6/08 14:22
: 2/6/08 14:22
I always thought it would be a GREAT idea if I could give some of the loot I got to my alts if they could use it.
Why let it go to waste?
All that loot that get's DE'd during raids. I could use that to gear up another character that could help my guild.
Why let it go to waste?
All that loot that get's DE'd during raids. I could use that to gear up another character that could help my guild.
# posted by : 2/6/08 14:27
: 2/6/08 14:27
well anonymous just inadvertantly made the case for why it would be a bad idea.
Guilds that are already picky would have no reason to train new people. Why take someone who could get geared up when you can just send the drops to alts of current guild members.
And you think guild drama is bad now with mains leaving after getting geared. Imagine your half geared tank leaving because his Alt mage just got fully geared without ever running a raid instance and now he wants to move on and nuke stuff.
As nice as it would be individually. It would just seperate the populace more than they already are.
Guilds that are already picky would have no reason to train new people. Why take someone who could get geared up when you can just send the drops to alts of current guild members.
And you think guild drama is bad now with mains leaving after getting geared. Imagine your half geared tank leaving because his Alt mage just got fully geared without ever running a raid instance and now he wants to move on and nuke stuff.
As nice as it would be individually. It would just seperate the populace more than they already are.
@regalx1:
I think it's an exaggeration to say that dualboxing is disapproved of by all. Although I don't do it myself (I'd rather put the money into a seconds game such as AoC)i can't say I have a problem with it. Ultimately a multiboxer pays exactly the same as (say) a husband and wife team, but is less effective (because one player can't play as efficiently as).
Of course there are some exceptionally skilled multiboxers who are better than two average players, but they have no unfair advantage over single boxers of equal skill who have partners to play with them.
What are your objections to them?
I think it's an exaggeration to say that dualboxing is disapproved of by all. Although I don't do it myself (I'd rather put the money into a seconds game such as AoC)i can't say I have a problem with it. Ultimately a multiboxer pays exactly the same as (say) a husband and wife team, but is less effective (because one player can't play as efficiently as).
Of course there are some exceptionally skilled multiboxers who are better than two average players, but they have no unfair advantage over single boxers of equal skill who have partners to play with them.
What are your objections to them?
I personally am VERY in favor of server bound rep bars. If you grind it once you shouldn't have to grind it again. I was gonna do a post on this but you beat me to it. Good on ya Toby :) (this is a problem in every game that I've ever seen that has rep and alts available)
Well, there are a lot of interesting ramifications:
What about the person who has a main who grinds Bloodsail Buccaneer rep… and his low-level alt can no longer enter Ratchet or Booty Bay?
Or the guy whose main hacks his way through the Timbermaw… his alts are hated, too?
Though I have to say that I wondered why the Outland Cenarion group had never heard of my toon who was well-known by the Azeroth Cenarion group.
And it is interesting that my main can farm Scryers or Aldor rep items for alts (or anyone), but most other faction rep items are soulbound (I guess their allegiance can be bought).
Any account-sharing of rep would mean that a careful compromise would have to be reached. Maybe a toon could write a one-time-per-toon, one-time-per-faction, account-bound, “letter of recommendation” that would grant a fixed amount of rep to an alt when accompanied by a suitable monetary donation to the faction.
I am mildly annoyed with the inconsistency that my enchanter can’t enchant my own alt’s gear, but my blacksmith, leatherworker, tailor, and jewel-crafter can share non-BOP items freely. Though IMO, WoW crafting is in need of rebalancing in WotLK.
IMO, passing down soulbound items is not feasible. Soulbound is soulbound, period.
Though I would be in favor of providing an NPC who would d/e your soulbound items for a fee. And PvP items should have some trade-in value – but since Blizz has proven entirely inept at balancing and policing PvP (like the BG AFK problem and Arena point cheating), I suppose a DELETE box is the best they can do.
What about the person who has a main who grinds Bloodsail Buccaneer rep… and his low-level alt can no longer enter Ratchet or Booty Bay?
Or the guy whose main hacks his way through the Timbermaw… his alts are hated, too?
Though I have to say that I wondered why the Outland Cenarion group had never heard of my toon who was well-known by the Azeroth Cenarion group.
And it is interesting that my main can farm Scryers or Aldor rep items for alts (or anyone), but most other faction rep items are soulbound (I guess their allegiance can be bought).
Any account-sharing of rep would mean that a careful compromise would have to be reached. Maybe a toon could write a one-time-per-toon, one-time-per-faction, account-bound, “letter of recommendation” that would grant a fixed amount of rep to an alt when accompanied by a suitable monetary donation to the faction.
I am mildly annoyed with the inconsistency that my enchanter can’t enchant my own alt’s gear, but my blacksmith, leatherworker, tailor, and jewel-crafter can share non-BOP items freely. Though IMO, WoW crafting is in need of rebalancing in WotLK.
IMO, passing down soulbound items is not feasible. Soulbound is soulbound, period.
Though I would be in favor of providing an NPC who would d/e your soulbound items for a fee. And PvP items should have some trade-in value – but since Blizz has proven entirely inept at balancing and policing PvP (like the BG AFK problem and Arena point cheating), I suppose a DELETE box is the best they can do.
# posted by : 2/6/08 19:54
: 2/6/08 19:54
Aren't we all forgetting why the soulbound system came into existence? To prevent "twinking" from occuring?
In reality, it just further separates the player from the game world. BoP and BoE simply remove a critical cog in the social aspect an MMO.
Does it work to stop twinking? Yes, but only in the most extreme extent. Twinking still exists.
Does it prevent real-money-trade for powerful items? Yes.
Does it really suck for people that play multiple characters? Yes, because advancement = time invested. Hence, why a lot of us call them "alts".
Would we be better served by a one character per server, per account limit? Yes, but then it wouldn't fit that well into a "game" MMO such as WoW.
In reality, it just further separates the player from the game world. BoP and BoE simply remove a critical cog in the social aspect an MMO.
Does it work to stop twinking? Yes, but only in the most extreme extent. Twinking still exists.
Does it prevent real-money-trade for powerful items? Yes.
Does it really suck for people that play multiple characters? Yes, because advancement = time invested. Hence, why a lot of us call them "alts".
Would we be better served by a one character per server, per account limit? Yes, but then it wouldn't fit that well into a "game" MMO such as WoW.
I really hope Blizz changes this part of the game. I think a soulbound item should be moveable between your own toons and reputation needs to be shared. There are far too many long, boring grinds that I'm just not going to make on multiple 70s.
# posted by : 2/6/08 21:06
: 2/6/08 21:06
Maybe rep should be partially shared. e.g. Getting main to exalted gets honored or revered for you alts.
You get partial credit as a friend of a friend.
Not being able to enchant alts is highly frustrating. BoP craftables should be limited to the crafter. But maybe there should be some BoA craftables blue/low end epics.
You get partial credit as a friend of a friend.
Not being able to enchant alts is highly frustrating. BoP craftables should be limited to the crafter. But maybe there should be some BoA craftables blue/low end epics.
# posted by : 3/6/08 01:57
: 3/6/08 01:57
People are wanting the same thing over in LOTRO, but also for the deed system.
I guess this is why I don't have any alts except for crafting purposes.
I guess this is why I don't have any alts except for crafting purposes.
# posted by : 3/6/08 04:19
: 3/6/08 04:19
Yeah I could never understand why WoW treated a player's chars as completely different accounts. It mucks up the guild roster because often you have 15 chars all belonging to the same person. In Guild Wars if you add a player to your friend's list (or guild), it adds their account. It will show them online no matter which char they are using. Plus in GW you share faction (rep) across all characters, which saves immense amounts of grinding time. WoW should be more like GW in this aspect.
I used to be against this as well, thinking "it's an RPG, they're supposed to be different characters" but now I am all for it. Because it's not a single player RPG, and RPGs, tabletop or single player games, never had rep grinds and annoying time sinks that have nothing to do with fun but to keep you playing. The metaphor of the characters being separate just doesn't apply to many of these games.
Contrary to what others are saying, this would favor casual players just as much if not more. Another player might not mind grinding up more rep on another character, but I only have the patience to do it once. It's not fun, so why do it on my alts, which are meant to be fun?
So for those parts of the game I say yes, let alts share reputation. And let enchanters create enchant kits to apply to the item slots instead.
And seriously, isn't it about time that timbermaw rep items become boe instead of bop?
The crafting I can see arguments for and against it. But really you will end up needing multiple crafters anyway due to the different specializations each craft has. Mooncloth vs shadow, etc.
Contrary to what others are saying, this would favor casual players just as much if not more. Another player might not mind grinding up more rep on another character, but I only have the patience to do it once. It's not fun, so why do it on my alts, which are meant to be fun?
So for those parts of the game I say yes, let alts share reputation. And let enchanters create enchant kits to apply to the item slots instead.
And seriously, isn't it about time that timbermaw rep items become boe instead of bop?
The crafting I can see arguments for and against it. But really you will end up needing multiple crafters anyway due to the different specializations each craft has. Mooncloth vs shadow, etc.
I dont really get the point of your piece here. Sounds like you're fed up with the game, and with creating alts.
# posted by : 3/6/08 17:04
: 3/6/08 17:04
Aren't we all forgetting why the soulbound system came into existence? To prevent "twinking" from occuring?
I was always under the impression that soulbound items were added for the purpose of slowing down the effects of RMT farming. Imagine if an RMT could farm one of the max level instances, get amazing drops and sell them. By making Instance and Quest drops BoP, they have made it so that certain key items are only available if the player is actually there to get it.
While of course RMTing is far from dying because of this, it would be so much larger if this wasn't in place.
Sorry for the slight OT bit. As for the main subject... I do agree that, at least, having the rep and BoP crafted items be account-wide would be good. I don't mind redoing quests since they give other rewards, but having to grind a rep multiple times is so bloody painful. If the rep is associated with a dungeon, it's not so bad, but a rep grind like the Consortium makes me want to stab my eyes out. The one exception is obviously "Either or" reps, like the Aldor or the Scryers. Those I want to be based on a per-character basis and not a per-account basis.
I was always under the impression that soulbound items were added for the purpose of slowing down the effects of RMT farming. Imagine if an RMT could farm one of the max level instances, get amazing drops and sell them. By making Instance and Quest drops BoP, they have made it so that certain key items are only available if the player is actually there to get it.
While of course RMTing is far from dying because of this, it would be so much larger if this wasn't in place.
Sorry for the slight OT bit. As for the main subject... I do agree that, at least, having the rep and BoP crafted items be account-wide would be good. I don't mind redoing quests since they give other rewards, but having to grind a rep multiple times is so bloody painful. If the rep is associated with a dungeon, it's not so bad, but a rep grind like the Consortium makes me want to stab my eyes out. The one exception is obviously "Either or" reps, like the Aldor or the Scryers. Those I want to be based on a per-character basis and not a per-account basis.
Contrary to what others are saying, this would favor casual players just as much if not more. Another player might not mind grinding up more rep on another character, but I only have the patience to do it once. It's not fun, so why do it on my alts, which are meant to be fun?
But it would completely screw over any new player. You think twinking is a problem now. Imagine it if the restrictions were lifted.
However I'd go for sharing rep grinds. But it would hurt grouping, because alts wouldn't have to run non heroic 5 mans
But it would completely screw over any new player. You think twinking is a problem now. Imagine it if the restrictions were lifted.
However I'd go for sharing rep grinds. But it would hurt grouping, because alts wouldn't have to run non heroic 5 mans
I think every rep grind should have a non-BOP item that can be farmed/sold associated with it. This way, you can choose to farm the rep itself (do the quests, run the dungeon, etc) but you can also choose to farm gold (dailies, questing, etc) and then 'buy' the rep off the AH. As a casual gamer, I have money avail but no time to run dungeons so HH rep and Sha'tar rep are out of my reach (after completing all the quests for them) while all the others are much easier to attain.
This post got me thinking overnight. As a player with 3rd level 70 and 3 others close to it, I also just can't get the drive to grind rep for them all over again. Some kind of shared system with partial credit for alts rep would be great. For every point of rep you gain, your alts gain 20%. Character 1 grinds 10 points, characters 2 and 3 get 2 points by association. Character 2 grinds 10 points, character 1 and 3 get 2 points by association.
You could even set a similar system up for guilds. While you're in the guild you gain 1% of the rep others in your guild grind. Call it an association bonus. If you leave the guild, you lose 90% of this "free" rep since the faction heard about you leaving and no longer think as highly of you as they did when you were a member of XYZ guild. This would even encourage rentention I would imagine.
Of course if your character's base reputation is already at exalted from your own grind and that of your alts, what guild you are in doesn't matter.
Some random thoughts...
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You could even set a similar system up for guilds. While you're in the guild you gain 1% of the rep others in your guild grind. Call it an association bonus. If you leave the guild, you lose 90% of this "free" rep since the faction heard about you leaving and no longer think as highly of you as they did when you were a member of XYZ guild. This would even encourage rentention I would imagine.
Of course if your character's base reputation is already at exalted from your own grind and that of your alts, what guild you are in doesn't matter.
Some random thoughts...
# posted by : 5/6/08 01:19
: 5/6/08 01:19<< Home
