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Wednesday, July 09, 2008
The Shandalar Project - Cards and Combat
In our collaborative effort to develop the card-based MMORPG Shandalar, we now have to talk about the most important centerpiece: The cards. As I already mentioned, cards replace spells and abilities hotkeys from other games. You will have one large collection of cards, and one "deck" of cards you carry around with you, with which you battle other monsters and possibly players if we want to introduce PvP.
My initial idea would be to have cards in 5 (or more) colors. For example white would stand for holy magic, including holy damage and healing. Black would be destructive magic. Red could be ranged damage, from weapons like bows. Green would be blunt weapons, including special effects like stuns. Blue would be sharp weapons, including special effects like bleeds. Every color is connected to one item shown held in your hand when you use it, a holy symbol for white, a wand for black, and the respective weapons for the other colors.
Why the items? Because we want to prevent players from simply choosing the best cards from every color and making 5-color decks that do everything, so we need to give an incentive to stick to one or two colors. The incentive is the cooldown, the time between using two cards. Remember we aren't talking about a game that looks like playing cards, Shandalar's combat will look like typical WoW combat, the cards are just the buttons you press on. If you use a blue card for a sword blow, followed by another blue card for another sword move, you can do that relatively quickly. If you follow the first blue sword move with a white healing spell, you're character will be shown sheating his sword and brandishing his holy symbol. This animation will take a two or three seconds, and thus make switching from color to another slower than sticking to the same one.
Combat starts with you having 7 cards in hand. When you use the first card, you'll have 6 cards left, and we need to think about a mechanism for replenishing cards. That could be either that for every card you use, you draw a new one. Or it could be time based, that every X seconds if you don't have 7 cards in hand already, you get a new card. Which one would you prefer? In any case I was thinking about cards that let you draw more cards, or increase hand size, and other cards which let you do combos, so you'd play several cards at once, leaving you with less than 6 cards in hand. Time-based redraws might be better so people don't end up with zero cards in hand.
I would make cards with different rarities, like the common, uncommon, and rare cards from Magic the Gathering. But rare cards shouldn't be strictly more powerful than common cards, only more complicated. So a common blue card would be a simple sword blow for some damage, a rare blue card would be a sword blow causing a bleed, or starting a combo, without doing more damage than the common card. Rarer cards should also give fancier animations and spell effects than common cards. But somebody with a good commons deck should be able to still have a chance to beat somebody with an all rares deck.
The deck rules from Magic the Gathering are also probably a good idea: You have a minimum size of deck of 60, but if you want you can put more than 60 cards in your deck. If you want to minimize randomness, you can put several copies of the same card in your deck, but not more than 4 of the same card.
Players would start the game with exactly 60 cards, just one full deck with no choice yet, and the deck would contain 12 common cards of each of the 5 colors. That gives them the opportunity to test all colors, and the monsters in the newbie zone would play equally bad 5-colored all-common decks. With the cards they add from buying or adventuring, players would then improve their decks to remove some colors and make either very focused one-color decks, or more versatile 2- and 3- color decks. There is no "mana" cost, like in Magic the Gathering, so the only penalty for mixing colors is the added delay when using one color after another. The starting 5-color deck should make the advantage of sticking to few color pretty clear.
I already mentioned that mobs don't drop gold or gear or cards, but colored points. The color of points they drop depends on the color of their deck, and the harder they are, the more points they drop. So the initial mobs in the newbie zone with their 5-color decks would drop low numbers of points, evenly distributed among all colors. Harder mobs could not only have more hitpoints, but also better decks, for example one mob with a two-colored red/blue deck would thus drop more points, and only red and blue ones. If you are after points of a specific color, you'd need to hunt mobs using decks with cards of that color. As that hinders group play, because the various classes need different colors of points and would rather kill different kinds of mobs, I was thinking of offering a group bonus in the color of the players choice. If a monster normally drop 100 red points, killing it with 5 people would not just give everyone 20 red point, but in addition to that 20 group bonus points. Each player could set on his character screen what color or colors he wants those points to be in. Giving a big enough group bonus would make killing monsters in a group faster rewards than soloing. And the points you get for colors you aren't currently interested in you can still use for cards for your collection, or for trade.
What do you think about cards and combat so far? Can you think of cool effects for cards without making them totally overpowered? How would you make card combos? And don't forget to tell me your prefered mechanic for redrawing cards.
- posted by Tobold @ 7:00 AM Permanent Link
Comments:
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I think the idea of a card disappearing once you have used is a bit tough because you could click on quite a few cards and then suddenly run out of abilities, how will you prevent this? Would you put in a timing system where you can only play a card every 2 seconds?
I think viewing the cards would be a problem in this circumstance, so how big would you make the card ui? If the cards are too small the player wouldn't know what he ability he is using. While if it is too large then it may obstruct the gameplay. Will the cards have text on them? If they do then how will you play them to get combos in the 2 seconds? In this case I think the combo idea is not productive.
Is there any auto-attack? or will a player have to wait till he gets another card before he can play it?
Once you have killed a monster and move on to the next how and when are your cards determined? Are more cards added at a fast interval so the player can quickly fight again? Or is the player given a full deck when they target a monster? And what if the player gets a rubbish hand? What if he gets all healing cards? Can he draw another hand? And if so how would you prevent people from just redrawing till they get the best card hand? Perhaps there could be a system that limits the amount of healing/dmg cards you draw.
I think the effects idea should be visually interesting as well as pleasing so as not to become dull, but at the same time they should not detract from the tactics of the combat.
I don't think you should be able to draw cards during combat as I think it would lead to confusion and annoyance. It would make planning a combat maneuver almost impossible as you are constantly getting different cards; if you are gunning for a red combo and then a crazy good card drops then you will play that card and lose the combo. But what if the difference between the bonus of the combo and the new card is very marginal? The player would probably resort to picking at random; destroying the tactical nature. In this case I also believe that there should be no combo system.
You picked a tough game to think up but I hope these couple of thoughts helped. I hope you do not consider this negative I aimed at 'constructive criticism'. :) good luck and I look forward to future posts on the project!
I think viewing the cards would be a problem in this circumstance, so how big would you make the card ui? If the cards are too small the player wouldn't know what he ability he is using. While if it is too large then it may obstruct the gameplay. Will the cards have text on them? If they do then how will you play them to get combos in the 2 seconds? In this case I think the combo idea is not productive.
Is there any auto-attack? or will a player have to wait till he gets another card before he can play it?
Once you have killed a monster and move on to the next how and when are your cards determined? Are more cards added at a fast interval so the player can quickly fight again? Or is the player given a full deck when they target a monster? And what if the player gets a rubbish hand? What if he gets all healing cards? Can he draw another hand? And if so how would you prevent people from just redrawing till they get the best card hand? Perhaps there could be a system that limits the amount of healing/dmg cards you draw.
I think the effects idea should be visually interesting as well as pleasing so as not to become dull, but at the same time they should not detract from the tactics of the combat.
I don't think you should be able to draw cards during combat as I think it would lead to confusion and annoyance. It would make planning a combat maneuver almost impossible as you are constantly getting different cards; if you are gunning for a red combo and then a crazy good card drops then you will play that card and lose the combo. But what if the difference between the bonus of the combo and the new card is very marginal? The player would probably resort to picking at random; destroying the tactical nature. In this case I also believe that there should be no combo system.
You picked a tough game to think up but I hope these couple of thoughts helped. I hope you do not consider this negative I aimed at 'constructive criticism'. :) good luck and I look forward to future posts on the project!
Would you put in a timing system where you can only play a card every 2 seconds?
Yes, just like in WoW there is a global cooldown, you can't just play all seven cards at the same time. The cooldown is shorter between two cards of the same color, and longer between two cards of different color.
Yes, just like in WoW there is a global cooldown, you can't just play all seven cards at the same time. The cooldown is shorter between two cards of the same color, and longer between two cards of different color.
Once you have killed a monster and move on to the next how and when are your cards determined? Are more cards added at a fast interval so the player can quickly fight again? Or is the player given a full deck when they target a monster? And what if the player gets a rubbish hand? What if he gets all healing cards? Can he draw another hand? And if so how would you prevent people from just redrawing till they get the best card hand? Perhaps there could be a system that limits the amount of healing/dmg cards you draw.
I wouldn't show a player his hand before he starts combat, but maybe we could do a mulligan option, where you can discard your hand and draw one less card, as long as you haven't played a card yet. I wouldn't fudge draws to guarantee a good hand, if a player puts too many healing spells in his deck its his fault.
"Decks" never run out of cards, if you used all 60 cards you just reshuffle your deck. I'd give players a new hand for every combat, so no waiting between fights, except maybe to heal wounds.
I wouldn't show a player his hand before he starts combat, but maybe we could do a mulligan option, where you can discard your hand and draw one less card, as long as you haven't played a card yet. I wouldn't fudge draws to guarantee a good hand, if a player puts too many healing spells in his deck its his fault.
"Decks" never run out of cards, if you used all 60 cards you just reshuffle your deck. I'd give players a new hand for every combat, so no waiting between fights, except maybe to heal wounds.
Hey thanks for answering tobold, was wondering how could a player start combat if he doesn't have any cards available? Or does the game cut away to a battle scene?
Hey thanks for answering tobold, was wondering how could a player start combat if he doesn't have any cards available? Or does the game cut away to a battle scene?
How could he not have any cards available? Cards you play aren't destroyed, they are just put on a virtual discard pile and reshuffled into the deck when the deck is empty. And the players start with 60 cards in the deck, and can't leave the deck editor without having 60 cards in the deck, so they always have cards to play with.
How could he not have any cards available? Cards you play aren't destroyed, they are just put on a virtual discard pile and reshuffled into the deck when the deck is empty. And the players start with 60 cards in the deck, and can't leave the deck editor without having 60 cards in the deck, so they always have cards to play with.
Some initial thoughts:
The combat interface would be limited to x key bindings, corresponding with the maximum of x cards, where x is 7 in normal circumstances. What each key does is dependent on the draw, so (semi-)random. This is good i think.
All cards should be usable right away, without resource restrictions or other preliminary phases. Because we aim for a real time fight, we have to compact all phases of a normal ccg into one. In that phase you can have several distinct layers though, which will be our combo's, each with their own (multiple) setup and finishing cards. The latter are only usuable when the required setup card is used and succesfully landed.
As for drawing, to keep things fluid, a new card should be drawn the moment you use a card (this is immediate, no gcd).
The card design should be top notch and really distinct, displayed big (optionally).
AI on the mobs will be a problem or challenge if you prefer, with the expectedly large number of spells (cards) we will have. We would need AI that can succesfully combo and counter.
The combat interface would be limited to x key bindings, corresponding with the maximum of x cards, where x is 7 in normal circumstances. What each key does is dependent on the draw, so (semi-)random. This is good i think.
All cards should be usable right away, without resource restrictions or other preliminary phases. Because we aim for a real time fight, we have to compact all phases of a normal ccg into one. In that phase you can have several distinct layers though, which will be our combo's, each with their own (multiple) setup and finishing cards. The latter are only usuable when the required setup card is used and succesfully landed.
As for drawing, to keep things fluid, a new card should be drawn the moment you use a card (this is immediate, no gcd).
The card design should be top notch and really distinct, displayed big (optionally).
AI on the mobs will be a problem or challenge if you prefer, with the expectedly large number of spells (cards) we will have. We would need AI that can succesfully combo and counter.
# posted by 
: 9/7/08 08:47
: 9/7/08 08:47
Tobold said;
How could he not have any cards available? Cards you play aren't destroyed, they are just put on a virtual discard pile and reshuffled into the deck when the deck is empty. And the players start with 60 cards in the deck, and can't leave the deck editor without having 60 cards in the deck, so they always have cards to play with.
You said in your post that when you 'start' combat you have 7 cards in your hand. But if those cards are not assigned until you start combat...how do you start combat with no cards to play?
you said;
I wouldn't show a player his hand before he starts
Then how does he start combat? Does he click on a monster and press 'begin fight'? and that was why I said;
Or does the game cut away to a battle scene?
By 'available' I meant in your hand.
lol comments are not the best form of communication.
How could he not have any cards available? Cards you play aren't destroyed, they are just put on a virtual discard pile and reshuffled into the deck when the deck is empty. And the players start with 60 cards in the deck, and can't leave the deck editor without having 60 cards in the deck, so they always have cards to play with.
You said in your post that when you 'start' combat you have 7 cards in your hand. But if those cards are not assigned until you start combat...how do you start combat with no cards to play?
you said;
I wouldn't show a player his hand before he starts
Then how does he start combat? Does he click on a monster and press 'begin fight'? and that was why I said;
Or does the game cut away to a battle scene?
By 'available' I meant in your hand.
lol comments are not the best form of communication.
If the combat is to be like WoW's it might work have an all-purpose hand that a player can use in and out of combat. For instance this could include a basic heal, a basic auto-attack, etc. It might also be useful to add some 'starting move' cards to this hand to allow the player to initiate combat. Make these kinds of cards 'colorless' I guess, and as the player gets more cards he can swap in different colorless cards e.g. instead of the basic auto-attack card which is say a kick to the throat the player can sub in a punch to the groin. This allows the player to enter combat without a battle screen and makes the game more fluid I suppose.
The 'starting move' cards also help differentiate characters as they could allow rogue-like characters e.g. stealth and backstab cards; warlock characters e.g. a summon pet card; druid characters e.g. transformations, etc. These cards would never be shuffled but could be changed freely out of combat.
The 'starting move' cards also help differentiate characters as they could allow rogue-like characters e.g. stealth and backstab cards; warlock characters e.g. a summon pet card; druid characters e.g. transformations, etc. These cards would never be shuffled but could be changed freely out of combat.
# posted by : 9/7/08 10:26
: 9/7/08 10:26
In order to avoid deadlocks in case the player got delt cards with which no combat action can be taken (for example only second layer combo cards are available) it will be possible to 'throw away' a card. This will count as a normal combat action and gcd rules; it will lead to a new card being delt.
Auto attack as other mentioned will be difficult to implement is this card driven game. I think only using cards should lead to results in game. We avoid the mindless button mashing syndrome because of our games inherent randomness.
Auto attack as other mentioned will be difficult to implement is this card driven game. I think only using cards should lead to results in game. We avoid the mindless button mashing syndrome because of our games inherent randomness.
# posted by : 9/7/08 11:42
: 9/7/08 11:42
Regarding the deck here's my random thoughts:
- the deck should have less cards. a 60 card deck included the terrains in magic. 40 would be enough, i think. As in Magic, you could have 4 cards of each. That would make it 10 spells.
- the player has a deck hotbar with 7 slots that are filled with the habilities when combat starts. The combat would be turned based disguised as real-time. each turn you can play as many cards as you want until you run out of spell points or you press a "next turn" key, you then get your spell points back and you draw one card. Used them all? tough! you'll be pounded until you draw a good card or until you die.
- more spell points, increase probability of starting first (passive abilities) are things that can be acquired through gear. damage, healing or spell points regeneration spells or any other activated ability is through cards only.
- If the combats are all with real time movement (and not final fantasy based) running away from combat should have a heavy penalization like increased time between abilities played or something.
- A player only knows his/her hand when starting combat. they can however simulate as many draws as they want.
More in the afternoon. :)
- the deck should have less cards. a 60 card deck included the terrains in magic. 40 would be enough, i think. As in Magic, you could have 4 cards of each. That would make it 10 spells.
- the player has a deck hotbar with 7 slots that are filled with the habilities when combat starts. The combat would be turned based disguised as real-time. each turn you can play as many cards as you want until you run out of spell points or you press a "next turn" key, you then get your spell points back and you draw one card. Used them all? tough! you'll be pounded until you draw a good card or until you die.
- more spell points, increase probability of starting first (passive abilities) are things that can be acquired through gear. damage, healing or spell points regeneration spells or any other activated ability is through cards only.
- If the combats are all with real time movement (and not final fantasy based) running away from combat should have a heavy penalization like increased time between abilities played or something.
- A player only knows his/her hand when starting combat. they can however simulate as many draws as they want.
More in the afternoon. :)
I haven't read all of this yet, but it sounds a little like Wizard101 is doing which uses cards to pvp.
# posted by : 9/7/08 12:32
: 9/7/08 12:32
I think the basic structure is far too much like MTG at the moment.
It would probably be better if the players litterally used cards rather than have them represent weapons and such as well.
It would probably be better if the players litterally used cards rather than have them represent weapons and such as well.
# posted by : 9/7/08 12:37
: 9/7/08 12:37
I have to admit, I'm not convinced that that game as it is would end up as anything much more than pressing random buttons. After all, everything you chose to put in your deck is going to be good, so why does it matter which precise order you cast them in?
Certainly in WoW, you can generally win a fight by just pressing any button every time the GCD comes up.
One approach would be to reduce the randomness, so instead of card draw, you simply have randomised cooldowns on abilities, say 1d6 times 10 seconds. The 10 seconds would increase based on the total number of cards in your deck, the 1d6 would decrease based on the number of copies.
For simple PvE fights, you can use a standard sequence of abilities. For harder fights, you have to adapt to abilities becoming unavailable.
The other would be to add in a power-up mechanism like MTG's mana, slow down the game a lot, and eliminate movement. Think of two wizards in Age of Conan facing off each other while doing spellweaving, rooted in place while rocks grow from the earth, the sky splits open, dragons and armies are summoned, and so on. Just with results corresponding to the visuals, rather than 'ooh now I have +2% critical damage'.
For a game inspired by MTG, I like the latter - you are supposed to be a planewalker, you can, with a few seconds to prepare, snap your fingers and kill every living creature in a two mile radius (Wrath of God). Nothing that's not a raid target in a standard MMORPG should even think of attacking you, and if for some reason it does, you kill it with a word.
The first tutorial quest should be to defeat an army or kill a dragon. Harvesting body parts from wildlife by casting spells that take off 10% of their hit points should not be on the menu.
Certainly in WoW, you can generally win a fight by just pressing any button every time the GCD comes up.
One approach would be to reduce the randomness, so instead of card draw, you simply have randomised cooldowns on abilities, say 1d6 times 10 seconds. The 10 seconds would increase based on the total number of cards in your deck, the 1d6 would decrease based on the number of copies.
For simple PvE fights, you can use a standard sequence of abilities. For harder fights, you have to adapt to abilities becoming unavailable.
The other would be to add in a power-up mechanism like MTG's mana, slow down the game a lot, and eliminate movement. Think of two wizards in Age of Conan facing off each other while doing spellweaving, rooted in place while rocks grow from the earth, the sky splits open, dragons and armies are summoned, and so on. Just with results corresponding to the visuals, rather than 'ooh now I have +2% critical damage'.
For a game inspired by MTG, I like the latter - you are supposed to be a planewalker, you can, with a few seconds to prepare, snap your fingers and kill every living creature in a two mile radius (Wrath of God). Nothing that's not a raid target in a standard MMORPG should even think of attacking you, and if for some reason it does, you kill it with a word.
The first tutorial quest should be to defeat an army or kill a dragon. Harvesting body parts from wildlife by casting spells that take off 10% of their hit points should not be on the menu.
Tobold -- I'm a little disappointed in the process so far. I had hoped that we had a fairly blank canvas that we could cooperatively flesh out; but the existing canvas appears to be much more detailed than I thought it would be.
I think that we should work a little more on the basic game concepts before going any further. I know you had some initial ideas but there were a lot of detailed comments to your initial post yesterday that should be, at least, discussed and considered.
I chose to look at your 1st post as your initial view of the game but that you were open to modification of that view based on input from the peeps.
Rather than dismiss some of the following concepts out of hand, I think they should be examined and discussed, and then be accepted or rejected.
These key concepts define the entire game and thus are vitally important and deserve to be considered in detail.
These concepts include (but are not limited to):
1) Classes -- this is very important in most mmo's and the 1st decision every person makes - it gives people identity and should affect every aspect of their game experience
2) Mana -- this is important in both mmo's and MtG. I think this vital aspect of both games gives us many opportunities to design how it is used & generated
3) Card usage -- just how are cards used in combat. This is a crucial decision since it affects the majority of the time spent in game. This can range from a full MtG turn-based duel to something similar to what you have presented and many shades in between.
4) Levels/Talents -- These are key concept of most mmo's and we should spend a lot of time deciding how & if these concepts could/should be used.
5)Weapons/Equipment -- do they exist; are they replaced by cards; how are they used; more key decisions
I think each of these concepts (and the ones I've missed) need to be hammered out first; at least in terms of what they mean in this game. Once that is done we have a game outline that can be used to help make all of the detailed decisions that follow.
I think that we should work a little more on the basic game concepts before going any further. I know you had some initial ideas but there were a lot of detailed comments to your initial post yesterday that should be, at least, discussed and considered.
I chose to look at your 1st post as your initial view of the game but that you were open to modification of that view based on input from the peeps.
Rather than dismiss some of the following concepts out of hand, I think they should be examined and discussed, and then be accepted or rejected.
These key concepts define the entire game and thus are vitally important and deserve to be considered in detail.
These concepts include (but are not limited to):
1) Classes -- this is very important in most mmo's and the 1st decision every person makes - it gives people identity and should affect every aspect of their game experience
2) Mana -- this is important in both mmo's and MtG. I think this vital aspect of both games gives us many opportunities to design how it is used & generated
3) Card usage -- just how are cards used in combat. This is a crucial decision since it affects the majority of the time spent in game. This can range from a full MtG turn-based duel to something similar to what you have presented and many shades in between.
4) Levels/Talents -- These are key concept of most mmo's and we should spend a lot of time deciding how & if these concepts could/should be used.
5)Weapons/Equipment -- do they exist; are they replaced by cards; how are they used; more key decisions
I think each of these concepts (and the ones I've missed) need to be hammered out first; at least in terms of what they mean in this game. Once that is done we have a game outline that can be used to help make all of the detailed decisions that follow.
As a sidenote, you've inspired me to play the computer version of MtG again. That thing is a complete PITA to get working in WinXP.
# posted by : 9/7/08 14:43
: 9/7/08 14:43
I assumed the basic premise to be: a hybrid mmo - ccg. Within those boundaries all is still open for discussion i guess? I do agree with Paul that we need to distinguish global/basic from detail, and start with the former:) Pauls discussion point 3 would fit into this chapter: for a mmoccrpg (Massively Multiplayer Online Collectable Card Role Playing Game, term coined right here&now folks:) card usage is pretty basic.
# posted by : 9/7/08 14:44
: 9/7/08 14:44
This is a great idea. If this game came out, I'd be interested.
What I would consider improvements to the current plan:
-The main color or class is chosen up front. Letting people go from 'class' to 'class' as they chose tends to ruin character development.
-Secondary color/sub class can be respecced in any town/outpost.
-Cards/skills can be equipped to the skill bar in any town/outpost. When leaving the outpost those skills are locked in. Locked in because the user cannot change these cards, however when using a card/skill in combat something will happen to your skill bar. That "something" will depend on the card you just used. Really powerfull cards will either go to grave yard or be shuffled back into your deck. That skill slot will be replaced with a random card from your deck. Common skills, like a regular attack for example will not shuffle back into your deck or go to the graveyard.
-Cards in the grave yard require you to talk to a spirit, or use other cards to get them back.
-When you get a deck of cards/booster back this deck contains cards of all colors allowing from a very good trade economy.
-Gear. I think gear/loot should be included in this game. I think gear should be earned from various different methods(quests,kills,bosses,dungeons). However the aqusition of cards/skills should be based on buying booster packs/starter decks.
Everyone who starts the game gets atleast a starter deck and a few boosters.
-Game is free to download, free to play. The cards are what cost the moneys. Card purchases should be capped so people don't go overboard. Perhaps $20 a month gets you a max of 20 booster packs?
This is a great idea and I could keep going forever. Hope you make this game and use some of my ideas.
What I would consider improvements to the current plan:
-The main color or class is chosen up front. Letting people go from 'class' to 'class' as they chose tends to ruin character development.
-Secondary color/sub class can be respecced in any town/outpost.
-Cards/skills can be equipped to the skill bar in any town/outpost. When leaving the outpost those skills are locked in. Locked in because the user cannot change these cards, however when using a card/skill in combat something will happen to your skill bar. That "something" will depend on the card you just used. Really powerfull cards will either go to grave yard or be shuffled back into your deck. That skill slot will be replaced with a random card from your deck. Common skills, like a regular attack for example will not shuffle back into your deck or go to the graveyard.
-Cards in the grave yard require you to talk to a spirit, or use other cards to get them back.
-When you get a deck of cards/booster back this deck contains cards of all colors allowing from a very good trade economy.
-Gear. I think gear/loot should be included in this game. I think gear should be earned from various different methods(quests,kills,bosses,dungeons). However the aqusition of cards/skills should be based on buying booster packs/starter decks.
Everyone who starts the game gets atleast a starter deck and a few boosters.
-Game is free to download, free to play. The cards are what cost the moneys. Card purchases should be capped so people don't go overboard. Perhaps $20 a month gets you a max of 20 booster packs?
This is a great idea and I could keep going forever. Hope you make this game and use some of my ideas.
Rather than dismiss some of the following concepts out of hand, I think they should be examined and discussed, and then be accepted or rejected.
I don't think we could ever get to that phase where we accept or reject specific ideas. This is a project that only consists of a brainstorming phase, where I list my ideas, and you all list yours. I don't "dismiss" anyone's ideas, I'm just writing what my ideas are. As we don't have essential things like a game company, budget, team, and everything else one would need to actually make a game, throwing around ideas is all there is to it. I can discuss your key concepts, but the only thing that leads to is a bunch of armchair designers not agreeing on several points, with no good way of arbitration. We don't have a lead designer or producer to take a final decision.
On classes, mana, levels, and gear, I think that including those would just end us up with another WoW clone. I'd rather demonstrate that you can make a game WITHOUT classes, mana, levels, and gear. Because your only argument here is "people want this", and the only reason they want this is that they only played games having those, and can't imagine a game not having those.
Magic the Gathering does not have classes, levels, or gear. Nevertheless it sold millions. Even a rather bad online version of it was profitable, but demonstrated that if you do it as a real turn-based card game, you can only reach a niche audience. By turning Shandalar into a game with much faster combat and 3D animations instead of a dry card game, we can reach a wider audience.
But at the same time we can do away with lots of the WoW baggage, by basing our game more on MtG than on WoW. Classes, levels, and gear would make the game more familiar to WoW player, but ultimately turn it into a clone with just a different combat system. That is probably something you'd try if you would have to get past a board of conservative investors, but for this brainstorm project it is just too much lacking creativity.
I don't think we could ever get to that phase where we accept or reject specific ideas. This is a project that only consists of a brainstorming phase, where I list my ideas, and you all list yours. I don't "dismiss" anyone's ideas, I'm just writing what my ideas are. As we don't have essential things like a game company, budget, team, and everything else one would need to actually make a game, throwing around ideas is all there is to it. I can discuss your key concepts, but the only thing that leads to is a bunch of armchair designers not agreeing on several points, with no good way of arbitration. We don't have a lead designer or producer to take a final decision.
On classes, mana, levels, and gear, I think that including those would just end us up with another WoW clone. I'd rather demonstrate that you can make a game WITHOUT classes, mana, levels, and gear. Because your only argument here is "people want this", and the only reason they want this is that they only played games having those, and can't imagine a game not having those.
Magic the Gathering does not have classes, levels, or gear. Nevertheless it sold millions. Even a rather bad online version of it was profitable, but demonstrated that if you do it as a real turn-based card game, you can only reach a niche audience. By turning Shandalar into a game with much faster combat and 3D animations instead of a dry card game, we can reach a wider audience.
But at the same time we can do away with lots of the WoW baggage, by basing our game more on MtG than on WoW. Classes, levels, and gear would make the game more familiar to WoW player, but ultimately turn it into a clone with just a different combat system. That is probably something you'd try if you would have to get past a board of conservative investors, but for this brainstorm project it is just too much lacking creativity.
For battles you could be limited to the 7 cards you draw at the start of the fight. Like MTG using a card could Tap it, or grey it out, and it then is unavailable for use/selection until you use another card, which Taps the second card and Un-Taps the first.
But I think I'd prefer to see cards disappear back into your deck and a replenishment system slowly replace the "used" cards/abilities, perhaps based on how many cards you're holding in your Hand. When you use your first card/ability it reduces your Hand to six cards, so you will draw a new card in six seconds...except in two to three seconds you're going to play another card reducing your hand to five cards and your Draw-delay time to five seconds. Of course when you get that sixth card at the five second mark your Draw-delay time goes back up to six seconds. In this way most people would end up getting a new card approx. every five seconds, and at any one time would have approx. five cards to choose from. In the event of a Combo where they use three to four cards in quick succession the Draw-delay time could potentially drop as low as three seconds, but playing a Combo will greatly reduce the cards in your Hand meaning your choice becomes very limited until your Hand is replenished. If your Combo did not kill your opponent it could leave you weakened, per se, until you get more cards.
Are cards/abilities going to have "Cast-times"? Or will they be Insta-Cast but with different delays based on the type/power of the Card? Or a combination of the two? If I play a Lightning Bolt card maybe it could take one second to Cast the Spell/Use the Card before it damages my opponent, and it comes with a 2-second delay/Cooldown before I can select another Card. If I play Lightning Storm it's an Insta-Cast AoE over three seconds (centered on my current target), but it comes with a 3-second Cooldown. If I play Chain Lightning maybe it takes two seconds to Cast, but it has just a 1-second Cooldown before I can select another Card. Just a suggestion.
If we're starting with a 60-card Deck I'd have to disagree with starting a player with twelve cards of each of the five colors. I'd prefer to see the starting Player allowed to choose two or three of the colors, and receive thirty or twenty of each color (2x30 or 3x20 = 60). This would make your Deck a little more specialized, and allow the Player to play the character how he wants right from the start. If I want to play a Melee class but the luck of the draw keeps giving me Healing and Arcane spells, and Ranged attack cards, I'm not going to be very happy, but if I can stack my starting Deck with Melee-combat cards, that's a little more like it. You could argue that as the game goes on I can trade in my Spell & Ranged Combat cards for Melee cards, but I'm still stuck playing a deck (and thus a game) I don't like for quite a few levels...and maybe that would be enough to turn me off the game.
But I think I'd prefer to see cards disappear back into your deck and a replenishment system slowly replace the "used" cards/abilities, perhaps based on how many cards you're holding in your Hand. When you use your first card/ability it reduces your Hand to six cards, so you will draw a new card in six seconds...except in two to three seconds you're going to play another card reducing your hand to five cards and your Draw-delay time to five seconds. Of course when you get that sixth card at the five second mark your Draw-delay time goes back up to six seconds. In this way most people would end up getting a new card approx. every five seconds, and at any one time would have approx. five cards to choose from. In the event of a Combo where they use three to four cards in quick succession the Draw-delay time could potentially drop as low as three seconds, but playing a Combo will greatly reduce the cards in your Hand meaning your choice becomes very limited until your Hand is replenished. If your Combo did not kill your opponent it could leave you weakened, per se, until you get more cards.
Are cards/abilities going to have "Cast-times"? Or will they be Insta-Cast but with different delays based on the type/power of the Card? Or a combination of the two? If I play a Lightning Bolt card maybe it could take one second to Cast the Spell/Use the Card before it damages my opponent, and it comes with a 2-second delay/Cooldown before I can select another Card. If I play Lightning Storm it's an Insta-Cast AoE over three seconds (centered on my current target), but it comes with a 3-second Cooldown. If I play Chain Lightning maybe it takes two seconds to Cast, but it has just a 1-second Cooldown before I can select another Card. Just a suggestion.
If we're starting with a 60-card Deck I'd have to disagree with starting a player with twelve cards of each of the five colors. I'd prefer to see the starting Player allowed to choose two or three of the colors, and receive thirty or twenty of each color (2x30 or 3x20 = 60). This would make your Deck a little more specialized, and allow the Player to play the character how he wants right from the start. If I want to play a Melee class but the luck of the draw keeps giving me Healing and Arcane spells, and Ranged attack cards, I'm not going to be very happy, but if I can stack my starting Deck with Melee-combat cards, that's a little more like it. You could argue that as the game goes on I can trade in my Spell & Ranged Combat cards for Melee cards, but I'm still stuck playing a deck (and thus a game) I don't like for quite a few levels...and maybe that would be enough to turn me off the game.
Also, be sure to store the current set of cards in an easily-readable data structure that doesn't require examining tiles. And that internal structure should be language-indepedent, as well, with any localization taking place at the time the cards are rendered.
Full gameplay via keyboard is a plus, especially if it can be done with the game window minimized or otherwise not visible.
;)
Full gameplay via keyboard is a plus, especially if it can be done with the game window minimized or otherwise not visible.
;)
# posted by : 9/7/08 16:22
: 9/7/08 16:22
OK -- you give your ideas, we'll give ours. However, I think most would like some conclusions to be reached. I would like to feel that we actually accomplished something -- even if its just a blueprint for a game that never will be developed. And who knows who is reading. As we discussed earlier, there are some MtG-based developments going on for consoles and PC. Maybe we can give them some ideas!
My vision is a full marriage of the old Shandalar and WoW. The richness of card duel combat and deck-building strategy coupled with the unique identities provided by classes/talents and the gratification of leveling.
Some things fall out nicely -- pure classes tied to color and hybrid classes tied to two specific colors. In one sense this gives you 15 (5 pure, 10 hybrid classes) different games to play
just as Rogue game is different from Shaman game.
This means that each color has to stand alone. However, for example, some colors can have healing capability and some not just as in WoW classes.
Talents, which people enjoy, can be used to affect deck and card strategy. Leveling adds life and talents and opens new card availability to the player.
I would be happy with straight duel for combat but I am also open to some marriage of the two combat styles (MtG & WoW) if it can be done nicely.
Unfortunately. most of what I describe is solo PVE or one-on-one PVP. Definitely some innovation required to move to group play.
In essence, what I am saying is to take the best of both WoW & MtG and hopefully the sum is bigger (better) than the parts.
My vision is a full marriage of the old Shandalar and WoW. The richness of card duel combat and deck-building strategy coupled with the unique identities provided by classes/talents and the gratification of leveling.
Some things fall out nicely -- pure classes tied to color and hybrid classes tied to two specific colors. In one sense this gives you 15 (5 pure, 10 hybrid classes) different games to play
just as Rogue game is different from Shaman game.
This means that each color has to stand alone. However, for example, some colors can have healing capability and some not just as in WoW classes.
Talents, which people enjoy, can be used to affect deck and card strategy. Leveling adds life and talents and opens new card availability to the player.
I would be happy with straight duel for combat but I am also open to some marriage of the two combat styles (MtG & WoW) if it can be done nicely.
Unfortunately. most of what I describe is solo PVE or one-on-one PVP. Definitely some innovation required to move to group play.
In essence, what I am saying is to take the best of both WoW & MtG and hopefully the sum is bigger (better) than the parts.
One note of caution. I'll lead with a question...
What's one thing people hate just about more than anything in PvE when playing an MMO?
Answer: Falling victim to the random-number-generator. As an example, how many people HATE fighting Prince in Karazhan, because no matter how perfectly they execute the combat dance, they can lose due to bad totem drops.
It seems your whole random card mechanic heavily influences all fights with a random-number-generator. I think that will get on people's nerves when they lose a boss fight because their healers didn't have any good heal cards in their visible hand, or the tank didn't have a good threat card in his visible hand.
mm
What's one thing people hate just about more than anything in PvE when playing an MMO?
Answer: Falling victim to the random-number-generator. As an example, how many people HATE fighting Prince in Karazhan, because no matter how perfectly they execute the combat dance, they can lose due to bad totem drops.
It seems your whole random card mechanic heavily influences all fights with a random-number-generator. I think that will get on people's nerves when they lose a boss fight because their healers didn't have any good heal cards in their visible hand, or the tank didn't have a good threat card in his visible hand.
mm
# posted by : 9/7/08 18:17
: 9/7/08 18:17
Bad luck may be frustrating (and even leading to question the random generator designed by the programmers...) but 100% predictability on the other hand is mindnumbingly boring. Which may also lead to frustration:)
I like the mental flexibility and dare i say it tactical insight needed to convert a seemingly hopeless situation (a bad draw!), perhaps achieved by preying on the opponents mistakes, but nevertheless, its one of the aspects i like(d) about mtg. Plus the deckbuilding and tinkering with combo's and stuff (and then trying them out and realizing they dont work..at all:). Plus the fact that you sometimes meet a player who has built such a simple but effective deck that you are totally blown away. And think: now why didnt i come up with that.
Seamlessly built into an mmo (which will be hard): I buy that game immediatly.
Finally, I agree with Paul : some kind of conclusion would be nice. A preliminary blue print for our game as it were.
I like the mental flexibility and dare i say it tactical insight needed to convert a seemingly hopeless situation (a bad draw!), perhaps achieved by preying on the opponents mistakes, but nevertheless, its one of the aspects i like(d) about mtg. Plus the deckbuilding and tinkering with combo's and stuff (and then trying them out and realizing they dont work..at all:). Plus the fact that you sometimes meet a player who has built such a simple but effective deck that you are totally blown away. And think: now why didnt i come up with that.
Seamlessly built into an mmo (which will be hard): I buy that game immediatly.
Finally, I agree with Paul : some kind of conclusion would be nice. A preliminary blue print for our game as it were.
# posted by : 9/7/08 19:23
: 9/7/08 19:23
The inverse corollary to the bad draw is the good draw. A “YES!” moment is that much sweeter when it’s unexpected. It would seem to me that the way to eliminate this problem is to not allow a completely bad draw by stacking the deck with at least one or two good cards for every hand. That way players would be ensured that they, at a bare minimum, would have the cards needed to be successful.
Alright, I doubt you have ever played it, but there is a good starting point for this: There was a game for the Gameboy Advance called Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories. In it you have a deck of cards that represents your basic attacks as well as items, summons and magic. You would use these cards to do all your basic attacks (It was an action RPG of sorts), albeit there was no cooldown so you tended to spam cards. To counteract that, there were two things. First of all, reshuffling your deck removed 1 card for the battle down to a minimum and actually took a few seconds to do, leaving you fairly vulnerable. Secondly, instead of using a card you could "store" it and eventually use it with up to 2 other cards you stored to perform a combo, either incorporating all 3 of the stored cards or performing a very special move, depending on which cards were used. I am seeing a lot of elements shared by this idea, except in more of an MMORPG approach instead of an action RPG approach. I will post more later.
I think if you do a Google on Magic the Gathering and randomness, you'll come to a much different conclusion of "random" luck playing a huge factor.
The top MtG players are top because they've all but eliminated random luck in constructed play. That is the point of proper deck building, to
Now onto my thoughts. I have a better idea than cooldowns, and this will call back to Chrono Trigger's (yes, Super Nintendo) Active Time battle system. It’s a great combination of Turn Based and Real Time combat giving you both detail and fast paced excitement.
Players "engage" an enemy and are locked onto it. Once engaged, each combatant has a time bar that must fill before they can carry out an action (no firing off instant ownage cards on unsuspecting targets).
Higher levels, speed upgrades, and the varying card colors allow your time bar to fill faster, while magics like Haste and Slow can temporarily change its pace. The combat keeps players on their toes. If they spend too much time deciding what to do, their enemy’s time bar will fill and they’ll get another attack. Once the players time bar is full they can use a card.
This tails perfectly into group play as well, as each party member is on a different timebar based on their own stats and card effects in play.
The top MtG players are top because they've all but eliminated random luck in constructed play. That is the point of proper deck building, to
Now onto my thoughts. I have a better idea than cooldowns, and this will call back to Chrono Trigger's (yes, Super Nintendo) Active Time battle system. It’s a great combination of Turn Based and Real Time combat giving you both detail and fast paced excitement.
Players "engage" an enemy and are locked onto it. Once engaged, each combatant has a time bar that must fill before they can carry out an action (no firing off instant ownage cards on unsuspecting targets).
Higher levels, speed upgrades, and the varying card colors allow your time bar to fill faster, while magics like Haste and Slow can temporarily change its pace. The combat keeps players on their toes. If they spend too much time deciding what to do, their enemy’s time bar will fill and they’ll get another attack. Once the players time bar is full they can use a card.
This tails perfectly into group play as well, as each party member is on a different timebar based on their own stats and card effects in play.
The new kid's MMO Wizard101 uses a card-based combat system. You can build your own deck, but are only given a "hand" from that deck to work from. Cards used are replaced from the rest of the deck.
Just FYI :) Shandalar may be closer than you think.
Just FYI :) Shandalar may be closer than you think.
# posted by : 9/7/08 22:46
: 9/7/08 22:46
I see someone already mentioned Wizard101. So here's more. There are no classes, just schools of magic, but you can learn anything from any school of magic, it's just cheaper to learn from your own. There are levels, though. Cards can be bought from vendors, other schools of magic, found, etc. Combat is initiated by approaching a monster. That sends you and the monster into a magic circle, which people can join in (and you can join other people's).
If someone joins the magic circle after fighting has begun, another monster will join on the next round to keep things even. So there is no grouping. If you see someone fighting, you can join right in and the challenge and reward will immediately scale to match.
Given the wrapper is a kid's game, there's some incredibly deep and strategic game play -- deck building is a mini game in itself, since you want to be sure to always have a healing card available.
Combat is turn based, but timed, so if you choose no action, the enemy will eventually go anyway.
If someone joins the magic circle after fighting has begun, another monster will join on the next round to keep things even. So there is no grouping. If you see someone fighting, you can join right in and the challenge and reward will immediately scale to match.
Given the wrapper is a kid's game, there's some incredibly deep and strategic game play -- deck building is a mini game in itself, since you want to be sure to always have a healing card available.
Combat is turn based, but timed, so if you choose no action, the enemy will eventually go anyway.
# posted by : 9/7/08 22:57
: 9/7/08 22:57
Cards are tricky as a conflict mechanic, I think. Longer, slower, more deliberate card games seem like a lot more fun because you have time to lay out and execute a strategy.
A really rapid-fire card game is going to minimize the importance of strategy and maximize the importance of deck building.
I always dream of a pinball-based MMORPG but I think it would suffer the same problem. The mechanic really shines only when you have at least a few minutes to enjoy it. And then how do you deal with an MMORPG where everyone is always in a three to five minute fight?
Although, honestly I don't know that much about card games, maybe they can be fun in 30-second bursts.
A really rapid-fire card game is going to minimize the importance of strategy and maximize the importance of deck building.
I always dream of a pinball-based MMORPG but I think it would suffer the same problem. The mechanic really shines only when you have at least a few minutes to enjoy it. And then how do you deal with an MMORPG where everyone is always in a three to five minute fight?
Although, honestly I don't know that much about card games, maybe they can be fun in 30-second bursts.
I think you need to pay more attention/emphasis to your costs.
The genius of Magic, what really makes it tick, is the concept of the mana curve. You have nothing that really corresponds to that. The only costs appear to be tempo and possibly card-advantage, and I don't think that will be enough to make an interesting game.
For example, if you have card A which does 2 damage, and card B that does 3 damage, there is no situation where you play card A. In fact, all cards must be balanced around the same damage. However, if card A costs less than card B, the decision becomes more interesting.
The genius of Magic, what really makes it tick, is the concept of the mana curve. You have nothing that really corresponds to that. The only costs appear to be tempo and possibly card-advantage, and I don't think that will be enough to make an interesting game.
For example, if you have card A which does 2 damage, and card B that does 3 damage, there is no situation where you play card A. In fact, all cards must be balanced around the same damage. However, if card A costs less than card B, the decision becomes more interesting.
I like collecting gear. I'd like to see gear affect the meta-aspects of the game such as:
Hand-size, starts at say 3 for easy learning
Global cooldown between playing cards, starts pretty high to minimize the punishment from having to think about your plays
The extra delay for playing different schools/colours
Deck size, both max and min.
Number of copies of a certain card
Possibly enabling a "side deck" of a limited number of cards that you can choose to mix into your deck/hand/graveyard in order to adapt to battles
Movement speed
Resistances to different schools/effects
Bonuses to different schools/effects
Heck, maybe even droprate of rare cards/tokens/etc etc
Just a few ideas of the top of my head.
Hand-size, starts at say 3 for easy learning
Global cooldown between playing cards, starts pretty high to minimize the punishment from having to think about your plays
The extra delay for playing different schools/colours
Deck size, both max and min.
Number of copies of a certain card
Possibly enabling a "side deck" of a limited number of cards that you can choose to mix into your deck/hand/graveyard in order to adapt to battles
Movement speed
Resistances to different schools/effects
Bonuses to different schools/effects
Heck, maybe even droprate of rare cards/tokens/etc etc
Just a few ideas of the top of my head.
Fully agreed with Rohan : linking one or several costs to a card use is absolutely crucial.
And cost is not just "mana" - all the point of having, for instance, a "lesser heal" and a "greater heal" even though your lesser heal has a worst mana-to-hp efficiency, is that it is faster to cast, so you can react to emergency through this. Here the cost, obsviously, is the cast time, and the choice which makes everything interesting is saving mana versus casting faster.
Also, I believe a "casting time" is extremely interesting in that it also allows the opponent to react/prepare/counter. Casting time does not necesseraly mean hit the button and wait, though : it may well mean "build your combo" card by card, slowly over several seconds - but in a way that is at least partially visible to the opponent.
Very interesting stuff anyway, thanks Tobold !
And cost is not just "mana" - all the point of having, for instance, a "lesser heal" and a "greater heal" even though your lesser heal has a worst mana-to-hp efficiency, is that it is faster to cast, so you can react to emergency through this. Here the cost, obsviously, is the cast time, and the choice which makes everything interesting is saving mana versus casting faster.
Also, I believe a "casting time" is extremely interesting in that it also allows the opponent to react/prepare/counter. Casting time does not necesseraly mean hit the button and wait, though : it may well mean "build your combo" card by card, slowly over several seconds - but in a way that is at least partially visible to the opponent.
Very interesting stuff anyway, thanks Tobold !
...rather quickly scanning the other comments:
I agree with Capn John. I think starting off with 12 of 5 colors isn't the greatest way to start. Letting a person pick a specific color, and giving them a basic set of that color is a better option IMHO.
It would let you get a feel for the specialties of each of the colors. And let people choose what sort of player they tend to like rather than be forced due to which "rare" cards they initially get.
Question about general combat - so are we thinking "the greater the effect, the longer the cast time"? If so, then a very basic card combo would be a card which, in addition to having it's basic effect, allows another type of card to be cast quicker.
I agree with Capn John. I think starting off with 12 of 5 colors isn't the greatest way to start. Letting a person pick a specific color, and giving them a basic set of that color is a better option IMHO.
It would let you get a feel for the specialties of each of the colors. And let people choose what sort of player they tend to like rather than be forced due to which "rare" cards they initially get.
Question about general combat - so are we thinking "the greater the effect, the longer the cast time"? If so, then a very basic card combo would be a card which, in addition to having it's basic effect, allows another type of card to be cast quicker.
# posted by : 10/7/08 15:09
: 10/7/08 15:09
Speaking of which... have any of you played the EQ/EQ2 TCG, Legends of Norrath, which is pretty similar to MtG? I think we could "borrow" a lot of ideas from that game.
# posted by : 10/7/08 15:11
: 10/7/08 15:11
'Once engaged, each combatant has a time bar that must fill before they can carry out an action '
That's a subtly genius idea.
Instead of a crazy-click-fest of drawing cards, trying to identify and remember which is which in real-time while strafing and bunny-hopping, have the computer manage that for you.
For any ability card in your deck, it can be in one of two states:
A. castable one or more times, as you have the card in hand.
B. not castable until X draws have taken place.
If A, the corresponding hotbar button is active. If B, it has a timer counting down (in seconds, phases or whatever) until the point when you draw the card.
Providing the info as to when a card will be drawn removes randomness and adds strategy, both to play and deckbuilding. Do you want shuffle effects in your deck? Do you want to use them, when there is a good card coming in 2 rounds time?
That's a subtly genius idea.
Instead of a crazy-click-fest of drawing cards, trying to identify and remember which is which in real-time while strafing and bunny-hopping, have the computer manage that for you.
For any ability card in your deck, it can be in one of two states:
A. castable one or more times, as you have the card in hand.
B. not castable until X draws have taken place.
If A, the corresponding hotbar button is active. If B, it has a timer counting down (in seconds, phases or whatever) until the point when you draw the card.
Providing the info as to when a card will be drawn removes randomness and adds strategy, both to play and deckbuilding. Do you want shuffle effects in your deck? Do you want to use them, when there is a good card coming in 2 rounds time?
I have an idea you may like: Have you ever played the game "Mastermind"? The premise is that you try to figure out a sequence of colored dots. You make guesses and then get hints about who close you were to being correct.
Your colored card system got me thinking about how you could incorporate special moves and combo attacks while also adding a layer of actual thinking strategy to combat without getting too complicated for casual gamers. Each entity in combat would have a hidden color sequence of thier own. Attackers could then use multiple cards to try to match that color sequence. The closer they get to discovering the correct sequence, the more damage they do. You could incorporate special graphics based on the damage bonuses. This system would automatically make people want to have large selections of different colors of cards. I am only suggesting this system for your effect cards, not the primary weapon. So, for example I'm using my gray sword card (colorless) and that card stays in play unless I want to change to a different gray card like my bow or my healing staff. Then, while actually issueing attack orders I might play a red fire card, a yellow two-handed swing card, a yellow two-step running start card, and a green extra concentration card (in that order). My opponent would have four hidden colors in a specific order. If I correctly guessed that his first color is red, then I add flame to my next sword attack. If I correctly guessed all 4 colors in the correct order, then I would do a running, two-handed, flaming sword combo with a bonus for added concentration (maybe just a cool sound effect for that one?) Then on my next attack I would try to play those colors of card in those slots based on what I drew from my deck. The speed of combat in combination with this simple puzzle game could make combat interresting and fun to watch. Then people wouldn't be as likely to just repeat the same stuff all the time.
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Your colored card system got me thinking about how you could incorporate special moves and combo attacks while also adding a layer of actual thinking strategy to combat without getting too complicated for casual gamers. Each entity in combat would have a hidden color sequence of thier own. Attackers could then use multiple cards to try to match that color sequence. The closer they get to discovering the correct sequence, the more damage they do. You could incorporate special graphics based on the damage bonuses. This system would automatically make people want to have large selections of different colors of cards. I am only suggesting this system for your effect cards, not the primary weapon. So, for example I'm using my gray sword card (colorless) and that card stays in play unless I want to change to a different gray card like my bow or my healing staff. Then, while actually issueing attack orders I might play a red fire card, a yellow two-handed swing card, a yellow two-step running start card, and a green extra concentration card (in that order). My opponent would have four hidden colors in a specific order. If I correctly guessed that his first color is red, then I add flame to my next sword attack. If I correctly guessed all 4 colors in the correct order, then I would do a running, two-handed, flaming sword combo with a bonus for added concentration (maybe just a cool sound effect for that one?) Then on my next attack I would try to play those colors of card in those slots based on what I drew from my deck. The speed of combat in combination with this simple puzzle game could make combat interresting and fun to watch. Then people wouldn't be as likely to just repeat the same stuff all the time.
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