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A blog with my thoughts regarding games I am playing and other stuff in life. Please read my Terms of Service
Monday, August 04, 2008
WAR is hiring
Have you spent the last 10 years locked in your parents basement to play MMOs instead of going to school? Do you know every intricate detail about the Warhammer lore, but got no marketable skills whatsoever? Are you stupid enough to think that a low-paid job in the game industry is better than a high-paid job in a more serious field? No problem, WAR is hiring! You can earn $12.07 per hour, 40 hours per week on "a flexible schedule with openness to night, weekend & holiday shift schedules", by working for Warhammer Online customer support. That's $25,000 a year! That certainly must be enough for a decent computer plus pizza every day. Who cares if you make two to three times that much as a starting salary in engineering or accounting? Much more fun to apply your math skills on the tricky problems of theorycrafting. It's not enough money for a family, but hey, between your "flexible schedule" and your raiding priorities you wouldn't have time for that anyway.
Sarcasm aside, $12 an hour for shift work really isn't very much. $25,000 a year is just over twice the official US poverty line for a single-person household, less than twice for a 2+ person household. If you were working shifts as a unionized worker in a plant you'd pull about twice that. And you could also get twice that as starting salary for many 9 to 5 jobs requiring a college degree, with better career outlooks to boost. It isn't even as if customer service for a game is an especially pleasant job, just read the official WoW forums for an hour if you don't believe me. Ever wondered why the customer service in many MMORPGs is so bad? Well, the customer service representatives being underpaid and overworked isn't helping. And the game industry, especially EA, is famous for exploiting young people's enthusiasm for gaming. Accounting or engineering might sound a lot more boring, but in the end it's the better career choice than working in the game industry.
Oh, and that WAR customer service job starts "August 2008". That'll give fuel to the rumours of a September release.
- posted by Tobold @ 6:30 AM Permanent Link
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Accounting and engineering are not good choices anymore.
THe world has changed, but has the dorky education system?
THe world has changed, but has the dorky education system?
# posted by 
: 4/8/08 07:04
: 4/8/08 07:04
Engineering is still one of the best choices around, there is a lack of good engineers world-wide, and pay is accordingly.
Not everyone gets to be an astronaut, but what exactly he gets to be is largely depending on life choices he made. You don't get a dream job with good pay by doing nothing and flunking school.
Not everyone gets to be an astronaut, but what exactly he gets to be is largely depending on life choices he made. You don't get a dream job with good pay by doing nothing and flunking school.
Also depends on where you live in the US. $25k isn't much in New York City, but it does the trick just fine in backwoods Alabama. You can apply the same reasoning to Wal-Mart's 'low starting wages'; in some places they really are garbage while in others they look like great opportunities. That whole 'poverty line' thing is pretty random in a country as big and diverse as America...but I agree with the basic premise, not enough pay for a crappy job with little future advancement opportunity.
# posted by : 4/8/08 07:19
: 4/8/08 07:19
You're right but not everyone looking for these jobs will have a college degree. If you compare it to working in WALMART or somesuch, it may look different.
I really see no point for me to finish my university degree, since 75,000 a year minus all the tax is like 25k anyways.
why shuold i receive less for what i do...
and this world doesn;t lack "engineers", this world needs a leader.
why shuold i receive less for what i do...
and this world doesn;t lack "engineers", this world needs a leader.
# posted by : 4/8/08 07:48
: 4/8/08 07:48
I want to see people ask the government to fulfil their goals or solve their life obstacles, instead of bashing on other civilians.
# posted by : 4/8/08 07:49
: 4/8/08 07:49
I totally realize that your pay level depends on your education level, and not everyone can go to university. But there is also the aspect that at any given education level a job in the game industry pays less than a very similar job in a more boring industry. A programmer for bank software earns more than a programmer for games, although the actual work is comparable. But as lots of people find games so cool, they end up accepting lower pay just to work in the games industry. And I don't think that is right.
All cool jobs pay less.
I'd be willing to bet that as a filmmaker (and quite a successful one by the standards of the industry) I make a good deal less cash than you. But I'd call bullshit if you claimed that I was inherently making a stupid choice - I love just about every day of work, I get to travel all over the world to talk to cool people about cool things, and I get to make great films. I'm happy to trade a 6-figure salary for that.
(The same's true at the top of the game, by the way. Sure, Tom Cruise makes a lot of money. But a CEO in the oil industry makes a lot more.)
Now, the question is whether customer service in the games industry is actually a cool job. Maybe not. But I know a few people who did it, and whilst they didn't do it for very long, I don't think they regret doing the job - they had different experiences, they met interesting people, they learned more about a game they love.
I'd like to see customer support people be better paid in the games industry. I'd like to see better conditions in the games industry in general, because I know far too many people who've gotten screwed by it. But there are reasons for choosing to work in it, finding games cool is one of them, and saying "you've got to be stupid to do that" (which is how your post came across to me) isn't entirely fair.
Saying "It's unfair to exploit those people" is right on the money, though!
I'd be willing to bet that as a filmmaker (and quite a successful one by the standards of the industry) I make a good deal less cash than you. But I'd call bullshit if you claimed that I was inherently making a stupid choice - I love just about every day of work, I get to travel all over the world to talk to cool people about cool things, and I get to make great films. I'm happy to trade a 6-figure salary for that.
(The same's true at the top of the game, by the way. Sure, Tom Cruise makes a lot of money. But a CEO in the oil industry makes a lot more.)
Now, the question is whether customer service in the games industry is actually a cool job. Maybe not. But I know a few people who did it, and whilst they didn't do it for very long, I don't think they regret doing the job - they had different experiences, they met interesting people, they learned more about a game they love.
I'd like to see customer support people be better paid in the games industry. I'd like to see better conditions in the games industry in general, because I know far too many people who've gotten screwed by it. But there are reasons for choosing to work in it, finding games cool is one of them, and saying "you've got to be stupid to do that" (which is how your post came across to me) isn't entirely fair.
Saying "It's unfair to exploit those people" is right on the money, though!
# posted by : 4/8/08 12:16
: 4/8/08 12:16
I totally realize that your pay level depends on your education level, and not everyone can go to university.
Not where I work. I work for one of the largest oil companies in the world (you know, the ones with record profits every quarter?) but I work in the Customer Service field of the industry. There are people here with high school diplomas, college degrees, and masters. We all started at the same salary (which isn't much more than Warhammer is offering by the way).
There is more to a starting salary, than your education level.
Not where I work. I work for one of the largest oil companies in the world (you know, the ones with record profits every quarter?) but I work in the Customer Service field of the industry. There are people here with high school diplomas, college degrees, and masters. We all started at the same salary (which isn't much more than Warhammer is offering by the way).
There is more to a starting salary, than your education level.
# posted by : 4/8/08 13:42
: 4/8/08 13:42
But as lots of people find games so cool, they end up accepting lower pay just to work in the games industry
Like most people, you are looking at that backwards. Its not that people will accept less for a cool/fun job, its that they demand more for a job they know they won't enjoy.
Like most people, you are looking at that backwards. Its not that people will accept less for a cool/fun job, its that they demand more for a job they know they won't enjoy.
25k to deal with agitated gamers? Nothing about that job sounds cool enough to work for that little.
I'm sure some people want to use it to get their foot in the door, but how many of their co-workers are thinking the same thing?
I'm sure some people want to use it to get their foot in the door, but how many of their co-workers are thinking the same thing?
Ugh, you couldn't pay me enough to have to deal with angry obnoxious know-it-all tweens mad because of software bugs or worse yet, design decisions, that didn't match up with customer expectations.
# posted by : 4/8/08 14:45
: 4/8/08 14:45
12 bucks an hour is more than what the customer service department gets paid where I work and they get bitched at ALL DAY. Gotta love the US, where CEO's get paid up to 500 times that of an average employee.
# posted by : 4/8/08 15:20
: 4/8/08 15:20
I don't see it ever changing. No one would spend more on customer retention than is cost effective. And since people tend to keep playing MMOs for long after the fun stops, they don't have to spend much.
I don't think a company will start spending more on customer support until people start voting with their wallets.
I don't think a company will start spending more on customer support until people start voting with their wallets.
My original comment was more to show that the whole spectrum of "job quality" must exist. Just as there are engineers, there must be pizza delivery folks. Astronauts and "Would you like fries with that?".
I want to EA's page and looked at the job some more. It has no degree requirement, which makes it an excellent job for people to do while working for a degree. Hell, the job pays decently for its extremely modest requirements.
If you want to take a shot at the general populace because they often settle for subpar jobs instead of continuing their education, I'm all for it. But this one is not on EA.
I want to EA's page and looked at the job some more. It has no degree requirement, which makes it an excellent job for people to do while working for a degree. Hell, the job pays decently for its extremely modest requirements.
If you want to take a shot at the general populace because they often settle for subpar jobs instead of continuing their education, I'm all for it. But this one is not on EA.
# posted by : 4/8/08 16:19
: 4/8/08 16:19
it is a sad state of affairs when the games that we love also make the people that we have to deal with during the course of our day less and less competent. as a student myself, I have seen the destructive havoc that MMO's can cause to an up-and-coming learner. It is a difficult task to balance school (which is quite rigorous in my case) with MMO's, but it is one that most certainly can be done with enough self-discipline. But that said, it is indeed NOT the game mechanics or game company's fault for the delinquency of high school and college students. It is simply a matter of each individual's dedication to achieving a better education. If it were not computer games that detracted them from their studies, it would be pot, sex, or alcohol. though, most times i've seen the latter 3 mixed in with the former.
# posted by : 4/8/08 17:04
: 4/8/08 17:04
What are you on? $25k a year for an entry-level position is pretty fair, not to mention they didn't go into specific benefits.
You can make $25k a year as a slug at Mythic, or you can make $25k a year as an Asst. Mgr. at some place like Barnes&Noble...not a hard choice.
You can make $25k a year as a slug at Mythic, or you can make $25k a year as an Asst. Mgr. at some place like Barnes&Noble...not a hard choice.
# posted by : 4/8/08 17:20
: 4/8/08 17:20
Tobold, maybe what you're saying is true for Europe, but its not true for the U.S. Entry level engineering and accounting jobs do not pay $75,000 a year. Try more like $30-35k for accounting and maybe $40-45k for engineering. The long term pay potential is much greater of course, but starting out you don't make that much, especially after having just paid for four years of university.
$12.07 is nearly twice the federal minimum wage, and for a job that requires no education that's pretty damn good. Yeah, for professionals that pay is crap. But guess what, there are millions and millions of americans who do not even make $12.07/hour.
As to pay in games being lower, that's simple supply & demand. There are more people willing to work in the industry than there are jobs to support them. That's just capitalism.
$12.07 is nearly twice the federal minimum wage, and for a job that requires no education that's pretty damn good. Yeah, for professionals that pay is crap. But guess what, there are millions and millions of americans who do not even make $12.07/hour.
As to pay in games being lower, that's simple supply & demand. There are more people willing to work in the industry than there are jobs to support them. That's just capitalism.
# posted by : 4/8/08 18:20
: 4/8/08 18:20
I think it's the "quick advancement" that they're trying to sell you on. I think Josh Drescher started as a customer service guy and now he's famous on the eeeeenternet! Then again, the guy has some mad speaking skills, so I'm sure the advancement dream will have severe limitations if you're a troglodyte.
# posted by : 4/8/08 18:30
: 4/8/08 18:30
I Agree with Graktar. I am one of those overeducated people who get to work in a more "distinguished" field, but not everyone has the money, patience, and time to go to school for 16 years...or 19 years. I wouldn't do it over again personally, I'd find something that required less education and was more "fun". But that's me after the fact.
A job is a job, whether it pays minimum wage, or slightly above it. I know people who make less than $12.00 an hour, but I'm not so quick to call them a loser and make fun of their life choices because of their paygrade.
Besides, half the people who take up the job aren't hoping that this is their big break into the gaming industry, they probably just need to pay the rent and buy groceries...and beer. If nothing else, do you want your customer service person happy, or pissy? I'd argue that they deserve more money, but thats beyond the scope of this discussion.
A job is a job, whether it pays minimum wage, or slightly above it. I know people who make less than $12.00 an hour, but I'm not so quick to call them a loser and make fun of their life choices because of their paygrade.
Besides, half the people who take up the job aren't hoping that this is their big break into the gaming industry, they probably just need to pay the rent and buy groceries...and beer. If nothing else, do you want your customer service person happy, or pissy? I'd argue that they deserve more money, but thats beyond the scope of this discussion.
Currently:
12.07 U.S. dollars = 6.14 British pounds
That's not too shabby. It's over the minimum wage here anyway and no doubt has links to possible promotions and so forth.
12.07 U.S. dollars = 6.14 British pounds
That's not too shabby. It's over the minimum wage here anyway and no doubt has links to possible promotions and so forth.
# posted by : 4/8/08 20:01
: 4/8/08 20:01
Gaming (RTS games only, not MMORPGs) industry needs more promotion from the politicians.
every year my school (university of toronto) gets 2 billion dollars per year from the government, what about blizzard?
every year my school (university of toronto) gets 2 billion dollars per year from the government, what about blizzard?
# posted by : 4/8/08 20:28
: 4/8/08 20:28
Customer service is NOT the gaming industry. It's like saying you can't make any money working at Apple because the janitors aren't paid well there. Customer service for a game company is the same as an insurance company or car manufacturer. None of them give you significant benefits from their respective industries.
You can make decent money in actual GAME DEVELOPMENT, not billing or customer service.
I feel these average salaries are comparable to the ones you linked to in the CNN article. If you had referenced these in your post I would be more apt to give your ideas merit, because you do have a point in there somewhere.
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=18212
I know you have historically railed against the industry for being low paying and honestly it's starting to come off as disdain when you ignore the facts and make unreasonable comparisons as you did here.
You can make decent money in actual GAME DEVELOPMENT, not billing or customer service.
I feel these average salaries are comparable to the ones you linked to in the CNN article. If you had referenced these in your post I would be more apt to give your ideas merit, because you do have a point in there somewhere.
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=18212
I know you have historically railed against the industry for being low paying and honestly it's starting to come off as disdain when you ignore the facts and make unreasonable comparisons as you did here.
# posted by : 4/8/08 20:46
: 4/8/08 20:46
And Tobold has described exactly why I find it so hard to take CSRs seriously. The amount of ass-kissing that goes on in official forums is absolutely ridiculous when you put things in perspective. All those people are worshiping people willing to accept peanuts for pay so they can be professional MMO nerds.
"Try more like $30-35k for accounting and maybe $40-45k for engineering."
Wrong and wrong.
I had offers coming in that would have started me out at 60k for an accounting degree / CPA (PWC and KPMG). Alas, I owe the next five years of my life to the Navy. Some engineer friends got offers in the 70s.
If you're an average student with a 2.5 GPA, you can expect 30-35k I suppose; however, if you distinguish yourself and interview well, 75k is not unreasonable.
Wrong and wrong.
I had offers coming in that would have started me out at 60k for an accounting degree / CPA (PWC and KPMG). Alas, I owe the next five years of my life to the Navy. Some engineer friends got offers in the 70s.
If you're an average student with a 2.5 GPA, you can expect 30-35k I suppose; however, if you distinguish yourself and interview well, 75k is not unreasonable.
The lowest average pay for an engineer at my school (Missouri S&T, not even that "prestigious") is $51,443 for architectural engineers. If I graduate in my current major (Electrical Engineering and Computer Science), I could reasonably expect my first job to pay $57,629/year.
Among all engineering majors (again, at my school), the average starting salary is $58,235/year, and 99% of students have a job waiting before they graduate.
Graktar, N1ck, Spicyham: Please, know wtf you're talking about before you comment.
Among all engineering majors (again, at my school), the average starting salary is $58,235/year, and 99% of students have a job waiting before they graduate.
Graktar, N1ck, Spicyham: Please, know wtf you're talking about before you comment.
# posted by : 5/8/08 00:10
: 5/8/08 00:10
Wow. I feel rather like I did something horribly wrong with my life if I am supposed to be making twice that with a college education. I even graduated with honors :( I'm only sitting at
35k. I don't know much about the other fields but I graduated with an emphasis on audio/visual.
35k. I don't know much about the other fields but I graduated with an emphasis on audio/visual.
# posted by : 5/8/08 00:13
: 5/8/08 00:13
Graktar, N1ck, Spicyham: Please, know wtf you're talking about before you comment.
Drugstore Space Cowboy:
Before you go trashing people, make sure you include the correct people to comment about commenting. All I said was that I'm not going to call someone a loser because they take a job in customer service to pay their bills. Also, just because you may disagree with someone doesn't mean that they shouldn't comment. Last I heard, as long as you follow the ToS, you can misspell words and sound like an idiot, or even say things that you don't know wtf you are talking about, if you want.
You, sir, need to slow down on the attack on other posters, this is a video game blog and thread.
Or take your own advice and "know wtf you're talking about before you comment". Taking your own advice would serve you well.
Drugstore Space Cowboy:
Before you go trashing people, make sure you include the correct people to comment about commenting. All I said was that I'm not going to call someone a loser because they take a job in customer service to pay their bills. Also, just because you may disagree with someone doesn't mean that they shouldn't comment. Last I heard, as long as you follow the ToS, you can misspell words and sound like an idiot, or even say things that you don't know wtf you are talking about, if you want.
You, sir, need to slow down on the attack on other posters, this is a video game blog and thread.
Or take your own advice and "know wtf you're talking about before you comment". Taking your own advice would serve you well.
I think the big question is, why do some of these companies wonder why they fail so spectacularly when it comes to the majority of MMO's? If I had a dollar for every single time I heard about a games company having 'rumours of mass layoffs' before some scapegoat manager fires everyone in the parking lot on a Friday afternoon, I'd have errrrr quite a pocket full of dollars!
It's pretty hard taking the games industry seriously when they seem so bereft of solid corporate leadership. See Brad McQuaid of Sigil (Vanguard)-fame for some rather shake-your-head-in-disbelief reading matter. And why is it the MMO industry? If Microsoft/GM/Coca-Cola opened 'open betas' (i.e. user pays to develop a product that should have been up to standard months prior) of half finished products, they would go bankrupt.
This whole 'people will work in the games industry for peanuts cause games are teh kewl' doesn't work when that mantra and corporations backed by angry/anxious shareholders meet in the middle!
Blizzard/CCP are about the only companies I have seen that seem to get it right....and even then they have their controversies.
It's pretty hard taking the games industry seriously when they seem so bereft of solid corporate leadership. See Brad McQuaid of Sigil (Vanguard)-fame for some rather shake-your-head-in-disbelief reading matter. And why is it the MMO industry? If Microsoft/GM/Coca-Cola opened 'open betas' (i.e. user pays to develop a product that should have been up to standard months prior) of half finished products, they would go bankrupt.
This whole 'people will work in the games industry for peanuts cause games are teh kewl' doesn't work when that mantra and corporations backed by angry/anxious shareholders meet in the middle!
Blizzard/CCP are about the only companies I have seen that seem to get it right....and even then they have their controversies.
# posted by : 5/8/08 14:46
: 5/8/08 14:46
Computer game companies pay their developers less than banks do? I'm not surprised. Considering the amazing number of failures in that industry they're getting exactly what they're paying for.
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# posted by : 7/8/08 05:59
: 7/8/08 05:59<< Home
